Deception & Misdirection by ZEC co. Forking ASIC Resistance Bitmain Antminer Z9

[dmwardjr]

First thing that comes to mind is that when you're a GPU PoW coin, its possible to develop an asic in secret and basically take over the network without anyone knowing.

If you're already on asics (fastest tech available atm), you're not vulnerable to stuff like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=P6B-ZCyP6K8

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[dmwardjr]

Yeah, it is a pretty lousy situation. ZEC has been my preferred coin for the past year. Sold most of it and moved my miners to Raven. Seems like a shitcoin with a future. I don't really see any downsides to it.

I picked up a z9 just to try it out. It will run simply to mine and sell. No hodling. Once it becomes unprofitable to run into the recycle bin it goes.

At first I though you all were being dramatic but the more I read the more I agree with the general consensus of this group.

Thanks for having an open mind and taking the RED PILL.

[dmwardjr]

So because he mines with ASICs hes a bad person?

P.S. Its actually cheaper for someone in a third world country to buy and run an ASIC than it is to build a MUCH MORE expensive GPU system that requires paying 4-5x the amount of import duties and makes less profit. Maybe you should spend less time dreaming of a better world and more time paying attention to the reality of this one. So you can proudly say you are a GPU miner even though it is meaningless at least you can pat yourself on the back. You have no fundamental grasp of how mining works yet you come here talking shit to someone with more skin in the game that you can ever afford to have.

The stupidity in this thread is overwhelming.

I believe the majority of devs for alt-coins would agree ASIC's [At this current time] are a plague to this space.  Mainly because one manufacturer runs the show and therefore risks centralization of mining by one dominant party with potentially more than 50% of the network hash.

NO ONE COMPANY should be trusted with the manufacturing and distribution of money printing machines.

With that said, I can see your point and agree with you in regards to AN INDIVIDUAL being oppressed by their government in regards to hardware costs, import duties, VAT, etc... to price you out of being profitable as a GPU miner.  I'm sorry, but for the sake of decentralization in mining of a coin, we cannot throw decentralization of mining to the winds so those who are oppressed by their government can mine with hardware that WILL NOT PROMOTE DECENTRALIZATION IN MINING.

YOU are the one who is whining!

I suggest you invest your energy and efforts towards your oppressive CENTRALIZED government rather than complaining about the community of a DECENTRALIZED CURRENCY not cooperating with your oppressive CENTRALIZED government to make getting into mining more financially viable for you.

[dmwardjr]

You guys are blinded by your own greed and it is hilarious. The only reason you want it to stay GPU is because you dont want to spend money upgrade equipment.

ASICs are a good thing. They strengthen the network ten fold over GPU hashrate. They are cheaper to buy and run than a GPU mining rig.

You guys talking about how you supported the project by mining it are so full of crap. You mined it to make a profit, you dont care about the direction of the coin until it isnt making enough money for you.

You talk about how BTCP, BTG and BitcoinZ are forking away from it. Who cares? They are shitcoins cloned off of other peoples hard work. Zcash actually brought something original to the table, being the first coin to incorporate zk-Snarks and its zero knowledge proof.

Also this crazy idea that miners were "used" to build the hashrate to be good enough for an ASIC? What kind of idiocy is this? Go look up Bytom.....a coin that was unminable until the ASIC came out from bitmain that was developed in concert with the Bytom team.


I mean how have you been taken advantage of? You mined coins and got paid right? You chose to do that, you profited from it, now you are crying about it. The hypocrisy is undeniable.

These wild conspiracy theories should be scrubbed from this forum before some poor fool reads it and believes all of this garbage.

Could not agree more. I am getting 90%+ money back for my 1080ti-s that i bought a year ago and switching to Asics. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, more efficient, what's not to like ?

I used to be like you when I first began mining in June, 2014.  I was always there to support BITMAIN and defend them from those who spoke ill of them.

HOWEVER, as I continued in the mining space longer I began to see how one company's domination of the space was a threat to decentralization.  That domination also created many other benefits for Bitmain.  Especially, in the trading space to make it easier for them to manipulate markets.  The list goes on and on.

I hope some day you will also take the RED PILL instead of remaining content in your ignorance.

Do NOT think when I use the word, "ignorance" that I'm insulting your intelligence; because I'm NOT.  For I too was IGNORANT at one time.

[dmwardjr]

then will come the Z9 Monster with 10X hashrate of the mini - rinse and repeat....

I agree with this statement. Seeing that the Z9 mini consumes only 300 watts while in operation, it tells me that this miner has a small handful of ASIC chips inside. Bitmain has definitely made this miner underpowered, which is a good strategy since it's still enough to wipe off all GPU's anyway, and still give the owners of these miners a reasonable profit. From a marketing point of view it was a great move to not build their most powerful ASIC at first, and instead released an underpowered one at a hugely inflated price with phenomenal margins.

If Zcash doesn't fork, they'll come out with a more powerful variant with a TDP of 1000-1600 watts, and it'll be 5-10x more powerful but with similar efficiency ratings, and probably a similar pricepoint. Bitmain's playing this game smart.

And another who took the RED PILL and knows the truth.

It took me a couple of years from 2014 to figure this out before I got out of ASIC mining and stopped supporting BITMAIN.

Welcome, and keep spreading the RED PILL to others.

Regards,

David

aka:  ProwdClown on Trading View and ZCash Forum:  https://www.tradingview.com/u/ProwdClown/         https://forum.z.cash/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/2295

[fanatic26]

I believe the majority of devs for alt-coins would agree ASIC's [At this current time] are a plague to this space.  Mainly because one manufacturer runs the show and therefore risks centralization of mining by one dominant party with potentially more than 50% of the network hash.

NO ONE COMPANY should be trusted with the manufacturing and distribution of money printing machines.

With that said, I can see your point and agree with you in regards to AN INDIVIDUAL being oppressed by their government in regards to hardware costs, import duties, VAT, etc... to price you out of being profitable as a GPU miner.  I'm sorry, but for the sake of decentralization in mining of a coin, we cannot throw decentralization of mining to the winds so those who are oppressed by their government can mine with hardware that WILL NOT PROMOTE DECENTRALIZATION IN MINING.

YOU are the one who is whining!

I suggest you invest your energy and efforts towards your oppressive CENTRALIZED government rather than complaining about the community of a DECENTRALIZED CURRENCY not cooperating with your oppressive CENTRALIZED government to make getting into mining more financially viable for you.

So again, heres the thing. ASICs do not equal centralization, anyone can buy them, run them, and point them where they want. All you people talk about decentralization as it is some buzzword to trump all others when I dont think you quite have the grasp of what it is. Just because Bitmain is the first to release a miner, does not make it the only manufacturer capable of producing them. You realize Innosilicon, Halong, BW, Obelisk and Baikal (im probably forgetting one or two) all make altcoin ASICs as well right? In the bitcoin space there is even more competition. Just because bitmain is the largest doesnt make them the only one.

Heres another example of your centralization fallacy...I run a large datacenter. I manage over 10,000 GPUs here (and 11k ASICs). As a bulk buyer I get priority over other customers when I order GPUs, and I can run as many as I want here. The only difference is the GPU systems are a pain in the ass and the ASICs are more of a 'set it and forget it' item. Large scale mining on GPUs is already happening...do you really think the shortage of cards was from you hobby miners running 6 or 12 cards? No it was people like me buying them by the thousand until the market ran out of cards to sell. The 12 cards you run versus my 10,000 doesnt help with decentralization at all by your definition of it. You use the word ignorance, which is a bit funny because you are a shining example of it. You read all this crap on the forums about ASIC BAD, then regurgitate it like it was your own independent thought.


P.S. Ill put your few years of hobby mining up against my years of experience in this industry if you want to brag about how long you have been doing it.

[dmwardjr]

Hi CryptoMined,

I have posted a question to Shawn on ZCash Forum.  Let's see what response we get...

[dmwardjr]

So again, heres the thing. ASICs do not equal centralization, anyone can buy them, run them, and point them where they want. All you people talk about decentralization as it is some buzzword to trump all others when I dont think you quite have the grasp of what it is. Just because Bitmain is the first to release a miner, does not make it the only manufacturer capable of producing them. You realize Innosilicon, Halong, BW, Obelisk and Baikal (im probably forgetting one or two) all make altcoin ASICs as well right? In the bitcoin space there is even more competition. Just because bitmain is the largest doesnt make them the only one.

Heres another example of your centralization fallacy...I run a large datacenter. I manage over 10,000 GPUs here (and 11k ASICs). As a bulk buyer I get priority over other customers when I order GPUs, and I can run as many as I want here. The only difference is the GPU systems are a pain in the ass and the ASICs are more of a 'set it and forget it' item. Large scale mining on GPUs is already happening...do you really think the shortage of cards was from you hobby miners running 6 or 12 cards? No it was people like me buying them by the thousand until the market ran out of cards to sell. The 12 cards you run versus my 10,000 doesnt help with decentralization at all by your definition of it. You use the word ignorance, which is a bit funny because you are a shining example of it. You read all this crap on the forums about ASIC BAD, then regurgitate it like it was your own independent thought.

Look dude, I'm done with you.  

This is my last response to you.  You're being ignored after this post.

I'm not even going to waste my valuable time responding to you.  I'll let you decide when and/or if you will humble yourself in order to deflate that puffed up head of yours.  Why?  Because it's so puffed up you can't take it out of your arss to see the damn RED PILL to even swallow it.

Good riddance...  Not wasting my time with you anymore.

[whitebrow]

So again, heres the thing. ASICs do not equal centralization, anyone can buy them, run them, and point them where they want. All you people talk about decentralization as it is some buzzword to trump all others when I dont think you quite have the grasp of what it is. Just because Bitmain is the first to release a miner, does not make it the only manufacturer capable of producing them. You realize Innosilicon, Halong, BW, Obelisk and Baikal (im probably forgetting one or two) all make altcoin ASICs as well right? In the bitcoin space there is even more competition. Just because bitmain is the largest doesnt make them the only one.

Heres another example of your centralization fallacy...I run a large datacenter. I manage over 10,000 GPUs here (and 11k ASICs). As a bulk buyer I get priority over other customers when I order GPUs, and I can run as many as I want here. The only difference is the GPU systems are a pain in the ass and the ASICs are more of a 'set it and forget it' item. Large scale mining on GPUs is already happening...do you really think the shortage of cards was from you hobby miners running 6 or 12 cards? No it was people like me buying them by the thousand until the market ran out of cards to sell. The 12 cards you run versus my 10,000 doesnt help with decentralization at all by your definition of it. You use the word ignorance, which is a bit funny because you are a shining example of it. You read all this crap on the forums about ASIC BAD, then regurgitate it like it was your own independent thought.

Look dude, I'm done with you.  

This is my last response to you.  You're being ignored after this post.

I'm not even going to waste my valuable time responding to you.  I'll let you decide when and/or if you will humble yourself in order to deflate that puffed up head of yours.  Why?  Because it's so puffed up you can't take it out of your arss to see the damn RED PILL to even swallow it.

Good riddance...  Not wasting my time with you anymore.

winning arguments by ignoring them.. .classic

Seeing pictures of those 10000+ GPU nightmares doesn't instill visions of decentralization, quite the opposite actually. Are any of those distributors limiting the selling of 10000 GPU to one entity, yeah probably not. Have people seen the pool ratios on suprnova for RVN, ZEN, ZEC? Several 1000 GPU farms going on there.

I'm not necessary for or against GPU or ASIC, but I'm not going to ignore GPU hoarding like fanatic26 and pretend GPU are any better. Whenever that argument gets brought it's conveniently ignored.. .

[badfad]

So because  massive GPU farms exist, we should encourge ASICS which will make the matter worse?

[dmwardjr]

winning arguments by ignoring them.. .classic

Seeing pictures of those 10000+ GPU nightmares doesn't instill visions of decentralization, quite the opposite actually. Are any of those distributors limiting the selling of 10000 GPU to one entity, yeah probably not. Have people seen the pool ratios on suprnova for RVN, ZEN, ZEC? Several 1000 GPU farms going on there.

I'm not necessary for or against GPU or ASIC, but I'm not going to ignore GPU hoarding like fanatic26 and pretend GPU are any better. Whenever that argument gets brought it's conveniently ignored.. .

Let me share a post in another forum on another website by user, Lisfin:

GPUs are WAY more available to get then ASICs. To say GPUs are currently hard to get is incorrect. Sure there was a month or 2 when they were overpriced, that was due to the high demand when they had a ROI of 90 days.

Even then you could still buy a smaller graphics card, they were not ALL sold out. The 1070/1080 TIs were the hard ones to get, other models were more available.

What advantage would we have if everyone moved to ASICs? It would just raise the current bar for everyone, reduce us to one supplier of hardware, and starts a arms race. Atleast with GPUs we are all on a level playing field without having to worry someone will have a GPU that does x100 the hashrate for 1/10th the power. All the hardware is relatively close to each other in terms of performance, keeping the difficulty from ramping up x10-x100.

ASICs dont save power, they dont make the network more secure, they are limited in availability, only have 3 to 6 month warrantys, run loud and hot, manufacturers keep a large number of the them for themselves and keep secret other rigs that are far better then sell them as new later while replacing them with new hardware, etc...

This is suppose to be a ASIC resistant coin, why dont you ASIC people go mine other ASIC coins available. Ohhhh ya thats right, you cant make your money back off them ASIC coins anymore because of the difficulty have ramped up so much. So you want to come and ruin Zcash’s difficulty with ASICs to make a quick buck and act like its the future of mining.

Please people, you have your ASIC coins, we have our GPU coins. Clearly yours are not working because here you are…trying to get in over here because the profits are gone from your ASIC coins.

Even if there are people/groups with large pockets who can buy large quantities of GPU's, it does NOT mean THERE WILL BE ONE BIG GROUP WHO CAN CONTROL AS MUCH AS 50+ PERCENT OF THE HASHING POWER.

With ASIC's, not only do you have that threat from those same people/groups with big money but ALSO THE MANUFACTURER(s).  We don't have that threat {at least not yet} of NVIDIA and AMD doing what BITMAIN does with their hardware.

[dmwardjr]

So because  massive GPU farms exist, we should encourge ASICS which will make the matter worse?

Excellent question...  I just recently shared a post from someone else in another forum on the subject.  Lets see how they respond.

The reason I ignored the other person, he said nothing to address the points I made in other posts.  Instead, he/she insisted on bloviating the same BS I've heard many others say.  When he says it, he comes across as demeaning and refers to those of us who support GPU mining as "stupid."

[dmwardjr]

Hi CryptoMined,

Daira, is looking into it tomorrow.  It's currently 1:50am for her now.

[dmwardjr]

[Apocalypse Onion]

Seeing pictures of those 10000+ GPU nightmares doesn't instill visions of decentralization, quite the opposite actually.

Massive farms exist... so what. You're looking at it the wrong way.

I can buy miner-grade GPUs from dozens of outlets in my own country. Even from a real shop in town if I can be bothered.

Something like 25% of Steam's userbase have a mining capable machine. There are 24 million copies of 'PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds' sold. Each of those copies belongs to one person with a mining capable machine.

How many people in the world own ASICS? How many shops in the world sell them? GPU mining gear is available through the same channels as enthusiast PC gear. It's a different world.

And since everyone knows about GPU mining now, you can bet that many gamers are evolving into cryptominers.

The potential for decentralised mining is so much greater with GPUs than ASICS.

[dmwardjr]

Seeing pictures of those 10000+ GPU nightmares doesn't instill visions of decentralization, quite the opposite actually.

Massive farms exist... so what. You're looking at it the wrong way.

I can buy miner-grade GPUs from dozens of outlets in my own country. Even from a real shop in town if I can be bothered.

Something like 25% of Steam's userbase have a mining capable machine. There are 24 million copies of 'PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds' sold. Each of those copies belongs to one person with a mining capable machine.

How many people in the world own ASICS? How many shops in the world sell them? GPU mining gear is available through the same channels as enthusiast PC gear. It's a different world.

And since everyone knows about GPU mining now, you can bet that many gamers are evolving into cryptominers.

The potential for decentralised mining is so much greater with GPUs than ASICS.

So TRUE...

Thanks for sharing, Apocalypse.

[philipma1957]

Seeing pictures of those 10000+ GPU nightmares doesn't instill visions of decentralization, quite the opposite actually.

Massive farms exist... so what. You're looking at it the wrong way.

I can buy miner-grade GPUs from dozens of outlets in my own country. Even from a real shop in town if I can be bothered.

Something like 25% of Steam's userbase have a mining capable machine. There are 24 million copies of 'PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds' sold. Each of those copies belongs to one person with a mining capable machine.

How many people in the world own ASICS? How many shops in the world sell them? GPU mining gear is available through the same channels as enthusiast PC gear. It's a different world.

And since everyone knows about GPU mining now, you can bet that many gamers are evolving into cryptominers.

The potential for decentralised mining is so much greater with GPUs than ASICS.

So TRUE...

Thanks for sharing, Apocalypse.

two and three year warranties are why I like gpus.

Sane running of gpus they don’t break.

But asics are here and won’t be stopped by every developer

[arielbit]

Seeing pictures of those 10000+ GPU nightmares doesn't instill visions of decentralization, quite the opposite actually.

Massive farms exist... so what. You're looking at it the wrong way.

I can buy miner-grade GPUs from dozens of outlets in my own country. Even from a real shop in town if I can be bothered.

Something like 25% of Steam's userbase have a mining capable machine. There are 24 million copies of 'PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds' sold. Each of those copies belongs to one person with a mining capable machine.

How many people in the world own ASICS? How many shops in the world sell them? GPU mining gear is available through the same channels as enthusiast PC gear. It's a different world.

And since everyone knows about GPU mining now, you can bet that many gamers are evolving into cryptominers.

The potential for decentralised mining is so much greater with GPUs than ASICS.

So TRUE...

Thanks for sharing, Apocalypse.

two and three year warranties are why I like gpus.

Sane running of gpus they don’t break.

But asics are here and won’t be stopped by every developer

zotac extended warranty.....5 years!

[arielbit]

The only difference is the GPU systems are a pain in the ass and the ASICs are more of a 'set it and forget it' item.

so fanatic26 hated GPUs because they are not "set and forget"...imagine the trouble of running them by the 1000s? haha ...and also imagine him managing 1000s of GPUs....and he is thinking "those damn kids making the difficulty higher, i hope their gaming PCs and trash DIY rig explodes!" haha

and also when fanatic26 is purchasing GPUs....i wonder how many times suppliers "limits" his purchase??...pain in the ass indeed..

[gameboy366]

So again, heres the thing. ASICs do not equal centralization, anyone can buy them, run them, and point them where they want. All you people talk about decentralization as it is some buzzword to trump all others when I dont think you quite have the grasp of what it is. Just because Bitmain is the first to release a miner, does not make it the only manufacturer capable of producing them. You realize Innosilicon, Halong, BW, Obelisk and Baikal (im probably forgetting one or two) all make altcoin ASICs as well right? In the bitcoin space there is even more competition. Just because bitmain is the largest doesnt make them the only one.

Heres another example of your centralization fallacy...I run a large datacenter. I manage over 10,000 GPUs here (and 11k ASICs). As a bulk buyer I get priority over other customers when I order GPUs, and I can run as many as I want here. The only difference is the GPU systems are a pain in the ass and the ASICs are more of a 'set it and forget it' item. Large scale mining on GPUs is already happening...do you really think the shortage of cards was from you hobby miners running 6 or 12 cards? No it was people like me buying them by the thousand until the market ran out of cards to sell. The 12 cards you run versus my 10,000 doesnt help with decentralization at all by your definition of it. You use the word ignorance, which is a bit funny because you are a shining example of it. You read all this crap on the forums about ASIC BAD, then regurgitate it like it was your own independent thought.


P.S. Ill put your few years of hobby mining up against my years of experience in this industry if you want to brag about how long you have been doing it.

I said it before and I am saying it again, there is no comparison between a ASIC and GPUs availability. MANY Asian countries have ASICS BANNED UNOFFICIALLY, they seize them in customs. Hoarding of ASIC can lead you to jail even if there is no official law on paper. Any central govt. can put a stop to ASICs and the public wouldn't care. It won't take them much to ban ASICs, it is really easy for them. But the same can't be done with GPUs as they were not made for crypto mining and are required by many different industries of which cryptocurrency mining is a very very tiny fraction. A person living in a small town of a third world country can easily buy a GPU, contribute to the network and get some reward for it which is not possible with ASICs due their retail availability and govt restriction. So no, not anybody can buy and run ASICs. That is an illusion. GPU are the real flag bearers of democratic mining.

Also ASICs would get more respect if there was more competition in the industry instead of Bitmain's monopoly and shady practices which are against proper functioning of capitalism.