Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Speculation => Topic started by: tvbcof on June 16, 2015, 07:29:57 PM



Title: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 16, 2015, 07:29:57 PM
Cypherdoc added a new poll concerning the upcoming XT fork to his epic gold thread some time ago.  Since then a lot of information has come out and it seems that some people are getting cold feet about certain things and certain parties.

Unfortunately cypherdoc didn't see fit to make allow people to change their vote it seems.  I'm just curious to see how things look now.  Fire up them sock-puppets boys!

---

Update:  Cypherdoc changed his poll so I'll do likewise.  Standing as of Sat Jun 20 17:09:53 PDT 2015:

Quote
Question:    Will you support Gavin's recent block size hard fork proposal of 20MB by March 1, 2016?
yes    31 (66%)
no    16 (34%)

Total Voters: 47

Cypherdoc, true to totalitarian propagandist form, neglected again to make his poll updatable for those who finally wade through the deceit.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Xialla on June 16, 2015, 07:53:29 PM
voted for yes. I just believe him, maybe even more than I should..and chinese farms? ohh

Chief Coders: Implement the following draconian changes.
Miners: We no like, so we will fork.
Chief Coders: Your call! Implement, and we all win; Fork, and we all lose.
Miners: You're fuckin' lucky we're ONLY in this for the money, damning any ideals.
Chief Coders: Nice, miners. Here's a bone.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 16, 2015, 08:05:35 PM
Fire up them sock-puppets boys!

Did you set the poll to disallow votes from new members?

I don't see how any poll here can be valid when the "No" side doesn't have the motivation to pad the votes but "Yes" side is playing the "dumb masses are ours" card and will use every means to sway public (sheep) opinion. Remember sheep only see the ass of the other sheep in front of them and follow.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 16, 2015, 08:18:44 PM
I wish you had added an option for "support block size increase but only by consensus BIP". Many of the yes votes are conflated into that.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 17, 2015, 03:38:19 AM
Fire up them sock-puppets boys!

Did you set the poll to disallow votes from new members?
...

Nope.  I didn't even notice it as an option, but I would not have configured it so even if I had.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on June 17, 2015, 06:10:26 PM
Bump


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 18, 2015, 06:44:01 PM
Bump
Thanks for saving me the effort.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: pereira4 on June 18, 2015, 09:55:39 PM
I would vote yes, but only if we had a guarantee that 1MB would be a real problem by march 2016, otherwise we would just be rushing things for no reason.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on June 19, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
Bump
Thanks for saving me the effort.

yes I'm also interested.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hayabusa911 on June 20, 2015, 04:57:37 AM
And a Yes vote from me! My feet feel nice and toasty... Maybe it's my wool socks in June  ::)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Amph on June 20, 2015, 07:28:59 AM
aren't we facing a 8MB now, even chinese would agree on this, so why we should not?

better to rise gradually i guess, then you can automatize it in the client, it was already mentioned

so i'm supporting the 8MB and not the 20


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 21, 2015, 12:24:05 AM
Bump for new poll question.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Alley on June 21, 2015, 01:15:27 AM
Poll seems biased.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 21, 2015, 01:21:14 AM
Poll seems biased.

Ummm...no shit. :)



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 21, 2015, 05:09:30 AM
Poll seems biased.

Ummm...no shit. :)

Frustration?

May I suggest a more accurate poll.

Quote
Do you support increasing the block size so that larger miners gain an advantage over smaller miners and which will cause relatively larger delays in confirmation for transactions when ever a smaller miner wins a block, especially impacting lower valued transactions which pay a lower transaction fee?

If the other side isn't going to explain all the issues, then why be 100% fair in the way you explain it. The truth is that both smaller and larger blocks will destroy low valued transactions unless centralization is achieved.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 21, 2015, 05:39:12 AM

Not really.  Mostly having fun.  Sure the phraseology is biased but it is also spot-on accurate.

May I suggest a more accurate poll.

Quote
Do you support increasing the block size so that larger miners gain an advantage over smaller miners and which will cause relatively larger delays in confirmation for transactions when ever a smaller miner wins a block, especially impacting lower valued transactions which pay a lower transaction fee?

If the other side isn't going to explain all the issues, then why be 100% fair in the way you explain it. The truth is that both smaller and larger blocks will destroy low valued transactions unless centralization is achieved.

Polls are easy to do.  Go for it.

In fact I don't care a lot about mining.  I care more about transfer nodes than mining.  Indeed, I don't even care that much about nodes specifically either.  A neuron in a biological specimen is not very important.  It's the interrelationship between them that is critical.  The neural net as it were.

Somehow when I first read up on Bitcoin I was under the mis-impression that transfer nodes would also be rewarded.  Not sure how I made that mistake, but I thought I remember finding it again when I looked in probably 2012.  Last I looked it was either completely memory-holed or it was always a figment of my imagination.  Had I not made this mistake I would not have taken the position I did and may have lost interest in Bitcoin completely...so it was a fortuitous mistake!

Probably a successful 'reserve currency' will need to put some focus on making the transmission network as robust as possible and absolutely through analysis and reward of it.  Any successful exchange currencies will probably be centralized which is fine (with me) as long as they have a very robust and decentralized backing store to ride on top of.  I don't think that Bitcoin actually will be able to develop a strong transmission network so Hearn's attempts to crash it are not completely unwelcome to me in some ways.  Some of the methods which will eventually be required to crash it will ultimately make it crystal why a high functioning 'neural net' is of critical importance.

edit: minor


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 21, 2015, 05:43:15 AM
Actually the solution you desire to have 100% censorship-free transfer is the same solution that makes the TPS scale to any level.

Your mistake is thinking these are duals, whereas in fact they are the same network design. You just haven't seen that design yet.

Much will change...

...believe me your assumptions are wrong because you haven't seen what you can not see.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 21, 2015, 06:11:28 AM
Actually the solution you desire to have 100% censorship-free transfer is the same solution that makes the TPS scale to any level.

Your mistake is thinking these are duals, whereas in fact they are the same network design. You just haven't seen that design yet.

Much will change...

...believe me your assumptions are wrong because you haven't seen what you can not see.

I'll be impressed if your solution can operate with less than 100% degradation under a situation where all global (and regional) internet infrastructure providers are highly incentivized to attack it to oblivion and do so with vigor.  A related assumption is that the U.S. NSA or a like replacement 'owns the net' and their analytical abilities of traffic down to the individual packet level are very high.

Your (or A) solution does not need to perform in such an extreme environment indefinitely but it must have a realistic potential to hold out for a period of years.

These threats are not at all far fetched to my way of thinking.  A solution which cannot deal with them is simply not very interesting of valuable to me.  If we don't see such an environment it means that mainstream solutions continue to work more or less as they do now, and to me they work just fine.  I'm interested in how to deal with a world in which they do not.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 21, 2015, 06:15:20 AM
I'll be impressed if your solution can operate with less than 100% degradation under a situation where all global (and regional) internet infrastructure providers are highly incentivized to attack it to oblivion and do so with vigor.  A related assumption is that the U.S. NSA or a like replacement 'owns the net' and their analytical abilities of traffic down to the individual packet level are very high.

Your (or A) solution does not need to perform in such an extreme environment indefinitely but it must have a realistic potential to hold out for a period of years.

These threats are not at all far fetched to my way of thinking.  A solution which cannot deal with them is simply not very interesting of valuable to me.  If we don't see such an environment it means that mainstream solutions continue to work more or less as they do now, and to me they work just fine.  I'm interested in how to deal with a world in which they do not.

If you assume that, then just stop now and shoot yourself. Game over. We will sink into a Dark Age and everything will be expropriated.

I assume mankind wants to fight when given the tools to do so.

The system the bastards rely on doesn't run without the knowledge capitalists. We run their system.

If even a few % of us start working on an ecosystem of solutions, they are toast.

They must obscure any takedown as DDoS or hackers, because if they simply filter data on the internet backbones, this will be a clear signal to the hackers that we've entered a war of totalitarianism. If they overtly declare war on hackerdom, they will lose and they know it.

So instead it will be proxy battle.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 21, 2015, 06:21:23 AM
If you assume that, then just stop now and shoot yourself. Game over. We will sink into a Dark Age and everything will be expropriated.

I assume mankind wants to fight when given the tools to do so.

Bingo!

The system the bastards rely on doesn't run without the knowledge capitalists. We run their system.

If even a few % of us start working on an ecosystem of solutions, they are toast.

They must obscure any takedown as DDoS or hackers, because if they simply filter data on the internet backbones, this will be a clear signal to the hackers that we've entered a war of totalitarianism. If they overtly declare war on hackerdom, they will lose and they know it.

So instead it will be proxy battle.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 21, 2015, 06:30:28 AM
There is a reason they didn't let the Silkroad sites establish a following. Because once knowledge age capitalists taste freedom to profit and innovate, they don't stop innovating new ways to achieve it.

Once you build an ecosystem around true anonymity, the bastards can never put the cat back in the bag.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 21, 2015, 06:58:50 AM
Notice the gradual effort to turn Bitcoin into NWOcoin. They can't be too overt. They will go overt against a supreme threat to hegemony such as anonymous drug markets on Tor hidden servers.

So any counter-effort must be sufficiently disguised as a lower-level threat initially. And there must be a plan to enable a "force-field" protection before going to the overt threat stage.

That "force field" can entirely nullify DDoS, Sybil attacks and even make it impossible to find the nodes involved. So then when the protocol is encrypted and the "force field" is on, the bastards are toast.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on June 21, 2015, 06:53:13 PM
It's not an Alt. And won't survive as one.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 22, 2015, 06:02:32 PM
It's not an Alt. And won't survive as one.

Every incompatible protocol difference is an 'alternative'.  This includes the so-called 'core'.  If something doesn't survive it loses the 'alt' label.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on June 22, 2015, 06:13:35 PM
It's not an Alt. And won't survive as one.

Every incompatible protocol difference is an 'alternative'.  This includes the so-called 'core'.  If something doesn't survive it loses the 'alt' label.



I like the origin Bitcoin principles embodied in my preferred alt master Blockchain.  
i cant change my vote this time is that by design?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 22, 2015, 08:17:28 PM
It's not an Alt. And won't survive as one.

Every incompatible protocol difference is an 'alternative'.  This includes the so-called 'core'.  If something doesn't survive it loses the 'alt' label.

I like the origin Bitcoin principles embodied in my preferred alt master Blockchain.  
i cant change my vote this time is that by design?

I was going to say 'my bad', but it seems that I can no longer select the updatable radio button.  Perhaps since I change the poll text to match cypherdoc's new one (with my own propagandist spin of course.)



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on June 22, 2015, 08:30:14 PM
If you assume that, then just stop now and shoot yourself. Game over. We will sink into a Dark Age and everything will be expropriated.

I assume mankind wants to fight when given the tools to do so.

Bingo!

The system the bastards rely on doesn't run without the knowledge capitalists. We run their system.

If even a few % of us start working on an ecosystem of solutions, they are toast.

They must obscure any takedown as DDoS or hackers, because if they simply filter data on the internet backbones, this will be a clear signal to the hackers that we've entered a war of totalitarianism. If they overtly declare war on hackerdom, they will lose and they know it.

So instead it will be proxy battle.

you know, you two should just move here and stay here.  then you can circle jerk one another.

you were made for each other.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Natalia_AnatolioPAMM on June 22, 2015, 09:05:02 PM
I wish you had added an option for "support block size increase but only by consensus BIP". Many of the yes votes are conflated into that.

good point. i would vote for that one for sure


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 22, 2015, 09:39:53 PM
If you assume that, then just stop now and shoot yourself. Game over. We will sink into a Dark Age and everything will be expropriated.

I assume mankind wants to fight when given the tools to do so.

Bingo!
...

you know, you two should just move here and stay here.  then you can circle jerk one another.

you were made for each other.

What, and leave you all alone on your gold thread to continue to display your years long man-crush on Mike and Gavin?



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 23, 2015, 05:08:22 PM
Checkpoint update (Tue Jun 23 10:06:41 PDT 2015):

 - Cypherdorc:
Quote
Question:    Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes    64 (69.6%)
2.  no    28 (30.4%)
Total Voters: 92

 - Here:
Quote
Question:    Will you support switching Bitcoin over to Hearn's XT alt with it's exponential bloat by the first of the year 2016?
Fuck No!    9 (39.1%)
Hell Yeah!    14 (60.9%)
Total Voters: 23



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 24, 2015, 06:31:08 PM

Cypherdoc's poll seems to have gotten a recent infusion of  interest on the XT side of things not reflected in mine.  Just a bump to remind the interested to make 'their' thoughts known as widely as possible.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Peter R on June 24, 2015, 07:26:00 PM
Checkpoint update (Tue Jun 23 10:06:41 PDT 2015):

 - Cypherdorc:
Quote
Question:    Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes    64 (69.6%)
2.  no    28 (30.4%)
Total Voters: 92

 - Here:
Quote
Question:    Will you support switching Bitcoin over to Hearn's XT alt with it's exponential bloat by the first of the year 2016?
Fuck No!    9 (39.1%)
Hell Yeah!    14 (60.9%)
Total Voters: 23


If you had used the exact same wording as Cypherdoc, this would have actually been an interesting experiment.  Would the polls have had statistically-significant differences?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on June 24, 2015, 07:44:04 PM
Checkpoint update (Tue Jun 23 10:06:41 PDT 2015):

 - Cypherdorc:
Quote
Question:    Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes    64 (69.6%)
2.  no    28 (30.4%)
Total Voters: 92

 - Here:
Quote
Question:    Will you support switching Bitcoin over to Hearn's XT alt with it's exponential bloat by the first of the year 2016?
Fuck No!    9 (39.1%)
Hell Yeah!    14 (60.9%)
Total Voters: 23


If you had used the exact same wording as Cypherdoc, this would have actually been an interesting experiment.  Would the polls have had statistically-significant differences?

With that wording, you don't seriously think he's interested in running an experiment here do you?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 24, 2015, 07:51:27 PM

If you had used the exact same wording as Cypherdoc, this would have actually been an interesting experiment.  Would the polls have had statistically-significant differences?

With that wording, you don't seriously think he's interested in running an experiment here do you?

Could be more of a 'probe' or even a 'honeypot'.  Hard to know.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Natalia_AnatolioPAMM on June 24, 2015, 08:19:27 PM

If you had used the exact same wording as Cypherdoc, this would have actually been an interesting experiment.  Would the polls have had statistically-significant differences?

With that wording, you don't seriously think he's interested in running an experiment here do you?

Could be more of a 'probe' or even a 'honeypot'.  Hard to know.



I'd say more of a probe


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 24, 2015, 09:42:23 PM
Cypherdoc's poll seems to have gotten a recent infusion of  interest on the XT side of things not reflected in mine.  Just a bump to remind the interested to make 'their' thoughts known as widely as possible.

I notice it correlated with when I wasn't posting, and then as soon as I posted, the poll went back our direction.

Clearly politics is battle of filibuster, because the minds of the voters are malleable.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 25, 2015, 06:56:37 AM
Cypherdorc (blew a fuse and) locked his thread, so we must continue the discussion over here...

Edit: I can't find anything in the Blockstream whitepaper to support tvbcof's claim that one can recover their assets from an attacked chain. The closest is section 4.2 Fraudulent transfers, but the only really viable action there is to dilute everyone's BTC by the amount of the stolen coins.

Who is going to do that, some administrator? A bankruptcy trustee? No.

The best that could be achieved would be to build in some sort of rules like that into the scripts. No concrete method for doing that is proposed, but even if it were, it couldn't possibly handle all possible failures, since some if not all failures are by definition unanticipated. In the event that the state of a side chain were scrambled, there would just be no way to know who should be able to redeem.

For this reason, even the hint (or in some cases merely a rumor) of a problem on a side chain will lead to a run-on-the-bank scenario.

The movement of coin assets from one chain to other can't realistically be done piecemeal at a moment's notice via the SPV (as you point out far too much risk to allow that), instead atomic swaps should be used.

The SPV proofs should only be used for those willing to accede to very long contest period, say 30 days or so.

Speculators are not going to do this for free. Thus rapidly moving assets between side chains is going to be lossy, i.e. you won't get 1 BTC for the 1 BTC you swapped (when demand exceeds supply) but going the other direction you will get more than 1 BTC (when supply exceeds demand) unless of course you accede to the long contest period.

Side chains which enforce a longer minimum contest period will have more lossy atomic swaps, but gain confidence.

I am going to notify Adam and Gregory that they need to be more realistic and incorporate this into their whitepaper.

Edit: reorganizations can also impact atomic swaps, but the losses are localized to only the parties to the swap, thus no run on the coin in general. Swap participants should set timelocks with duration appropriate to the risks they want to take.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 25, 2015, 07:32:17 AM
the way it would need to happen in normal circumstances is for the scBTC to be mined back to BTC, by reversing the proof, most likely via merge mining.  since the most common cause of a failure is likely to come from a 51% of the SC since it is inherently less secure (<100% MM'd) by definition being able to get mined back is not going to happen.  after all, that would be the purpose for the attack; to kill off everyone's scBTC while simultaneously shorting scBTC on an exchange while going long BTC on the MC.

that would be a fun attack.

Then it won't happen with my consensus design for PoW because my design can't be 51% attacked. All such attacks are filtered out by a clever aspect of the design and this proof of filtering could in theory be incorporated into an SPV.

Checkmate dorc.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on June 25, 2015, 04:32:22 PM
I wish you had added an option for "support block size increase but only by consensus BIP". Many of the yes votes are conflated into that.

good point. i would vote for that one for sure
TPTB this is saying you would only vote yes if it were centrally controlled by gate keepers!


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 25, 2015, 06:07:44 PM

I wish you had added an option for "support block size increase but only by consensus BIP". Many of the yes votes are conflated into that.

good point. i would vote for that one for sure

TPTB this is saying you would only vote yes if it were centrally controlled by gate keepers!

6 months from now is not compatible with the BIP process, development, testing, etc.  Hearn is completely aware of this and had dropped all pretenses of 'consensus' in lobbying for a 'benevolent dictator' codebase management framework for Bitcoin.

Thus, as it stands, I believe my choices are a fairly accurate reflection of the realistic options which map to the real world.

I'll try to update my poll in conjunction with cypherdoc's going forward.  This one was put together without much time for thought but I'll try to be more a bit more thoughtful on the next one.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on June 25, 2015, 06:55:28 PM

I wish you had added an option for "support block size increase but only by consensus BIP". Many of the yes votes are conflated into that.

good point. i would vote for that one for sure

TPTB this is saying you would only vote yes if it were centrally controlled by gate keepers!

6 months from now is not compatible with the BIP process, development, testing, etc.  Hearn is completely aware of this and had dropped all pretenses of 'consensus' in lobbying for a 'benevolent dictator' codebase management framework for Bitcoin.

Thus, as it stands, I believe my choices are a fairly accurate reflection of the realistic options which map to the real world.

I'll try to update my poll in conjunction with cypherdoc's going forward.  This one was put together without much time for thought but I'll try to be more a bit more thoughtful on the next one.



i think its worth it, I for one am interested to see.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 25, 2015, 07:12:03 PM

Cypherdorc (blew a fuse and) locked his thread, so we must continue the discussion over here...

Chicken-shit asshole.  (Actually, I suspect it was a temporary mistake but I didn't seen an explanation.  And it's fun to antagonize the guy.)

---

Let me preface my remarks by stating that I personally am fixated on keeping activity on the 'mainchain' as minimal as possible.  This to keep it super lite and the entire support infrastructure distributable mostly in terms of messenging bandwidth.  I want to minimize transactions.

Economically, I feel that if an on-chain transaction represents thousands of off-chain transactions, very generous fees can be paid to core infrastructure supporters while end-users continue to pay a tiny fee (if any) for their coffee purchases.  We then have a win/win.


The movement of coin assets from one chain to other can't realistically be done piecemeal at a moment's notice via the SPV (as you point out far too much risk to allow that), instead atomic swaps should be used.

The SPV proofs should only be used for those willing to accede to very long contest period, say 30 days or so.

I don't really understand your atomic swap ideas with out more context.  Specifically, swap what for what?  I suppose BTC for sidecoin?  If so, this is still activity on the mainchain which I wish to avoid.  With enough 'lossyness', I can imagine some efficiency, and I suppose that this is where your 30-day figures come from.  Fine, but it still seems as kludgy as anything I could come up with in my early attempts.

Speculators are not going to do this for free. Thus rapidly moving assets between side chains is going to be lossy, i.e. you won't get 1 BTC for the 1 BTC you swapped (when demand exceeds supply) but going the other direction you will get more than 1 BTC (when supply exceeds demand) unless of course you accede to the long contest period.

Side chains which enforce a longer minimum contest period will have more lossy atomic swaps, but gain confidence.

I am going to notify Adam and Gregory that they need to be more realistic and incorporate this into their whitepaper.

Edit: reorganizations can also impact atomic swaps, but the losses are localized to only the parties to the swap, thus no run on the coin in general. Swap participants should set timelocks with duration appropriate to the risks they want to take.

Speculators are the last people I would give much of a shit about (although I am one myself and intend to continue to be.)

What hit me recently was that a single transaction channel set-up would make my outlay (say 1 BTC to a micro-tipping sidechain) undesirable and anyone could verify this in the mainchain.

Yes, a market might occur for dept.  That is, someone might buy my dedicated channel funds for a discount just as someone might loan someone money who is already in debt.  This could indeed 'inflate' the Bitcoin monetary base, but it probably would not be that big a deal.  The transparency inherent in a public blockchain makes it unlikely that 'debt' would be overpriced, and it would make practical the market itself would doing it's own form of 'tainting' on UTXO's under control of unreliable parties.

I don't fully comprehend the channel actions as outlined by some of the more competent designers at this time, but it does seem to me that with two-part keys and time-lock programming, a lot of the activity to facilitate fine-grained channel flow control actually could happen off-chain.   Really interesting stuff.

---

I have always had a high respect for the efficiencies that lossy systems can achieve.  This from my experience in engineering.  I would say that most parties playing in the reserve currency sphere are able and willing to play under a lossy paradigmn.  It's just standard risk management which they are competent to do.  The main thing they need is transparency.

On the other end of the spectrum, people who can lose only one dollar because they have only one dollar can also accept a lossy system.  This because if they lose 100% of their wealth they would have spent it on an energy drink the next morning anyway and needed to make another dollar picking up cans the next day no matter what.

LN seems to appreciate and adopt some of these paradigms to my delight.

It is still the case that for the many use-cases where lossy systems are not applicable, native Bitcoin remains an option (we hope.)



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on June 25, 2015, 07:28:13 PM
I personally am fixated on keeping activity on the 'mainchain' as minimal as possible.  This to keep it super lite and the entire support infrastructure distributable mostly in terms of messenging bandwidth.  I want to minimize transactions.

Economically, I feel that if an on-chain transaction represents thousands of off-chain transactions, very generous fees can be paid to core infrastructure supporters while end-users continue to pay a tiny fee (if any) for their coffee purchases.  We then have a win/win.

That's exactly right.  Garzik couldn't have explained it any more precisely:

Quote
"universal payments" is both a laudable goal and a
shopworn bitcoin marketing slogan.

The fundamental engineering truths diverge from that misty goal:
Bitcoin is a settlement system, by design. (http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/33405247/)


Bitcoin's destiny is eventually moving from emphasizing payments to becoming the settlement network for all settlement networks.

As another one who "gets it" explained:

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".
-davout

This is the vision of the anointed.  Let us pray Satoshi will remove the scales from cypherdoc and the other Gavinista's eyes.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 25, 2015, 07:54:53 PM
Let me preface my remarks by stating that I personally am fixated on keeping activity on the 'mainchain' as minimal as possible.  This to keep it super lite and the entire support infrastructure distributable mostly in terms of messenging bandwidth.  I want to minimize transactions.

I've claimed to you before that this is not necessary because the consensus design that solves the dilemma facing us now has none of the tradeoffs that cause you to wish for that. Your wish does not solve the dilemma. Please review the following post I just made today:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11713418#msg11713418

Economically, I feel that if an on-chain transaction represents thousands of off-chain transactions, very generous fees can be paid to core infrastructure supporters while end-users continue to pay a tiny fee (if any) for their coffee purchases.

The problem is you've implicitly asked some entity to aggregate fees which is the antithesis of decentralization, i.e. you would end up with few entities controlling the bulk of the transactions fees to paid to Core. The only way to solve the dilemma is with my consensus network design.

The movement of coin assets from one chain to other can't realistically be done piecemeal at a moment's notice via the SPV (as you point out far too much risk to allow that), instead atomic swaps should be used.

The SPV proofs should only be used for those willing to accede to very long contest period, say 30 days or so.

I don't really understand your atomic swap ideas with out more context.  Specifically, swap what for what?  I suppose BTC for sidecoin?

This is covered in Appendix C of the Blockstream whitepaper (which derives from an thread where TierNolan invented the concept for decentralized exchanges). Swaps between BTC to or from scBTC. Hopefully the light bulb goes on for you now?

If so, this is still activity on the mainchain which I wish to avoid.

The main reason you need SCs is because it is the only viable means to transition BTC to a new experiment which solves the dilemma. Otherwise, my idea would be released as an altcoin which could possibly destroy BTC (believe it or not).

With enough 'lossyness', I can imagine some efficiency, and I suppose that this is where your 30-day figures come from.  Fine, but it still seems as kludgy as anything I could come up with in my early attempts.

Speculators are not going to do this for free. Thus rapidly moving assets between side chains is going to be lossy, i.e. you won't get 1 BTC for the 1 BTC you swapped (when demand exceeds supply) but going the other direction you will get more than 1 BTC (when supply exceeds demand) unless of course you accede to the long contest period.

Side chains which enforce a longer minimum contest period will have more lossy atomic swaps, but gain confidence.

Speculators are the last people I would give much of a shit about (although I am one myself and intend to continue to be.)

...

I have always had a high respect for the efficiencies that lossy systems can achieve.  This from my experience in engineering.  I would say that most parties playing in the reserve currency sphere are able and willing to play under a lossy paradigmn.  It's just standard risk management which they are competent to do.  The main thing they need is transparency.

...

I see nothing wrong with the lossy option. If you don't want it, then accede to the long contest period and get a 1-to-1 transfer. If you want speed, then pay the very small lossy fee at the market rate for an atomic swap. You will likely get it back going (atomic swapping) the other direction, so it will balance out and it shouldn't be large because speculators are efficient.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 26, 2015, 06:09:22 PM
Let me preface my remarks by stating that I personally am fixated on keeping activity on the 'mainchain' as minimal as possible.  This to keep it super lite and the entire support infrastructure distributable mostly in terms of messenging bandwidth.  I want to minimize transactions.

I've claimed to you before that this is not necessary because the consensus design that solves the dilemma facing us now has none of the tradeoffs that cause you to wish for that. Your wish does not solve the dilemma. Please review the following post I just made today:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11713418#msg11713418

...

Tangential skim.  From this note the above (and other things) my sense is that your ideas, priorities, etc, and mine are not well aligned in certain ways (which is fine.)

I am actually lukewarm about the consensus mechanism that Satoshi employed and see no magic at all the the 'blockchain' which is in a lot of ways a significantly inferior method of being a source-of-truth (though I find the combination to be an impressive achievement as evidenced by our conversation here today.)  Long story short, if you can improve on these things in some ways, great, but no great surprise.  Ultimately you need to piss or get of the pot and release your stuff in some manner or another in order for others (hopefully including those more competent than myself)  to do any real analysis of your ideas.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 26, 2015, 08:45:37 PM
Tangential skim.  From this note the above (and other things) my sense is that your ideas, priorities, etc, and mine are not well aligned in certain ways (which is fine.)

What you want is exactly what I am driving towards (you just don't yet understand the ideal way to get what you want). You perhaps think I won't play nice in open source for the greater good, but that is incorrect. My retention has to do with making sure that capital is focused where it needs to be in order get things done, e.g. Blockstream's technology would not have been brought to market timely without $21 million in funding (well probably could have been achieved with much less but you get my point any way).

If the only thing that needed to be accomplished was to release a side chain with my new consensus algorithm, then I could just approach Blockstream and hope to get hired (virtually because I won't move). But there are other very important open source initiatives that need to be funded, which are not within Blockstream's business model scope.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 26, 2015, 09:02:02 PM
Tangential skim.  From this note the above (and other things) my sense is that your ideas, priorities, etc, and mine are not well aligned in certain ways (which is fine.)

What you want is exactly what I am driving towards. You perhaps think I won't play nice in open source for the greater good, but that is incorrect. My retention has to do with making sure that capital is focused where it needs to be in order get things done, e.g. Blockstream's technology would not have been brought to market timely without $21 million in funding (well probably could have been achieved with much less but you get my point any way).

If the only thing that needed to be accomplished was to release a side chain with my new consensus algorithm, then I could just approach Blockstream and hope to get hired (virtually because I won't move). But there are other very important open source initiatives that need to be funded, which are not within Blockstream's business model scope.

Changing consensus _on a sidechain_ would be one of the first things I would do.  I'll look forward to seeing what you've got and expect there will be a lot of interesting things come about.  Here's the deal:

Massive sha256 hash power is what Satoshi choose as backing for Bitcoin (for better or worse.)  The equivalent would be the atomic structure of gold atoms and the difficulties involved with fucking with them.

A sidechain is simply an extension Bitcoin.  Since the sidechain relies on Bitcoin as it's backing it absorbs the backing store of Bitcoin itself without needing to do the work.

The fall-out of this is that a whole new world of consensus mechanisms, ledger structures, etc, etc are free to be explored.  Again, the solidity of a sidechain is obtained through it's Bitcoin backing.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 27, 2015, 12:06:24 AM
Again, the solidity of a sidechain is obtained through it's Bitcoin backing.

Until and iff all (or most?) of the BTC has moved out of Bitcoin Core to the superior consensus mechanism side chain. I don't know how likely that is or is not to happen. Just saying.

P.S. If one released an altcoin with such an important improvement, one might think Blockstream could just duplicate it in side chain and suck all the momentum out of the altcoin (thus "stealing work" in the sense of destroying the Inverse Commons (http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron-5.html) by destroying the incentive to innovate in the Bitcoin space in a Tragedy of the Commons). They'd be wrong to assume that is necessarily the outcome. There is an ace up the sleeve.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 27, 2015, 12:22:15 AM

Again, the solidity of a sidechain is obtained through it's Bitcoin backing.

Until and iff all (or most?) of the BTC has moved out of Bitcoin Core to the superior consensus mechanism side chain. I don't know how likely that is or is not to happen. Just saying.

One of the only 'real' risks of sidechains is that something could come along which is so obviously superior to Bitcoin as a backing store role that it would supplant it, and sidechains would open the door for it to both do so (since they need a backing store) and because they create a much more productive planter-box.

Along a similar line of reason, Bitcoin could itself be attacked successfully whereupon sidechains could just switch to something else.

To each of these 'threats', I say "um...ok."

P.S. If one released an altcoin with such an important improvement, one might think Blockstream could just duplicate it in side chain and suck all the momentum out of the altcoin. They'd be wrong to assume that is necessarily the outcome. There is an ace up the sleeve.

As per the above, go for it!  Do it quick because altcoin's glory day may be coming to an end.  Or just make it a sidechain yourself from the get-go.  As I say, if it is truly exceptional and/or needed you might be the new Satoshi.




Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on June 27, 2015, 12:57:22 AM
Do it quick because altcoin's glory day may be coming to an end.

I would rephrase that — altcoins that are not simultaneously pegged BTC side chains glory days may be coming to an end.

I believe there is an ace of the sleeve that insures altcoins will continue to exist.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 27, 2015, 02:14:11 AM
Do it quick because altcoin's glory day may be coming to an end.

I would rephrase that — altcoins that are not simultaneously pegged BTC side chains glory days may be coming to an end.
...

That is the road I went down (sorta) and never could come up with anything which was not, at best, highly kludgy.  Part of the reason for this is that I did not take the time to study Bitcoin in depth and never did fully appreciate some of the primitives that were being worked on within core.  I'll look for your better results.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on June 27, 2015, 08:27:26 PM

Bump and cross-pollination:

...
Let them pay $1 per transaction.

Agreed. :-\

My bank charges me $10 for international transfer.

$1 per transaction ( 250 bytes )  is $4,000 per 1 MB block.
 - 6 * $4,000 =>  $24,000 per hour
 - 24 * $24,000 => $576,000 fee/day

I pay around $10 per transaction and am happy to do it.  Bitcoin is vastly faster and less hassle than wire transfers, and more reliable than mainstream banking in my experience (having accounts silently shut down with no (written) explanation and no interaction but with a fully licensed and compliant entity (Coinbase).)  Edit:  BTW, my bank charges me $25 or so for wires.

In that case the revenue is more like a quarter-million dollars per hour, and my rough guess without researching it much is that at 1MB Bitcoin could already consume most of the world market for wire transfers.  Or at least international ones.

With these kinds of numbers, even running a pretty small mining setup solo would be better odds than playing the lottery.  If pools were attacked successfully most of the participants would fragment and those who could still obtain access to the Bitcoin network (receive transactions successfully) would likely keep right on chugging away.  In fact, in such an event the large mining farms who are not protected by the state would probably be off-line making the difficulty less.  Of course some of them might keep chugging away working on attacks (specifically, tainting.)

---

Another edit:

Hearn said famously about tainting:  'There is no difference between confiscating someone's BTC and keeping them from being spent for 20 years.'  His example was Qaddafi.  The 20 year figure comes from the Independent miners who were assumed to be priced out of the market by those operating on economies of scale and exploiting revenue streams not available to any but the largest entities on the global internet.

Non-trivial revenue from fees would throw a huge monkey-wrench into that plan, and in particular because a blacklisted (or non-whitelisted) transaction instigator could and would pay even higher fees.  I wonder (and suspect) that that is part of what is driving the desperation to not have transaction fees become a significant part of infrastructure support.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on July 01, 2015, 03:45:00 AM

Just a quick bump.  It's worth note that poor cypherdoc is treading water mightily to keep above the 70%/30% rate now.  Hee Hee.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on July 01, 2015, 05:00:47 AM

Just a quick bump.  It's worth note that poor cypherdoc is treading water mightily to keep above the 70%/30% rate now.  Hee Hee.



It won't make a difference.  He'll turn on a dime and wave his hands, explaining why what really matters is [Thing That Agrees With Him].


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on July 07, 2015, 04:31:24 PM
Bump.

Oh, and BTW: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1105722.0



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: stallion on July 07, 2015, 08:09:12 PM
Are the transfer nodes getting rewarded? The poll seems biased in itself. Somewhere down the line , if we see ,why does the poll even consist the option of a "No". Since people are at false impression of the consequences of a "YES".


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on July 07, 2015, 10:54:15 PM
Are the transfer nodes getting rewarded? The poll seems biased in itself. Somewhere down the line , if we see ,why does the poll even consist the option of a "No". Since people are at false impression of the consequences of a "YES".

I cannot easily parse much of your comment, but to your question, sadly 'not really.'

When I got started in Bitcoin I thought they were to be.  Not sure why I thought that other than that it would make a lot of sense in promoting a widely distributed system.  I'm glad I made a mistake here else I probably would have lost interest in Bitcoin right away.

Transfer nodes may at some point be rewarded insofar as they can autonomously verify that they are not being cheated rather than needing to rely on others (as does Multibitch which, if network traffic were subject to ISP level packet filterer, would be highly susceptible to sybil attacks I expect.)  They also may be able to operate on tainted coins as the operator chooses if coin tainting rears it's head and cannot be beaten back like it has over the last few years (often in association with the XT guy Mr. Hearn.)

If I were designing a system a share of the transaction fee rewards would be distribute to at least the last few of the transfer nodes which delivered it.  There would also be a concept of 'connection value'.  So, one AWS node passing a message to another AWS node would be worth almost nothing.  An AWS node passing a message to a radio linked node in outer Mongolia would be a very high value connection.  The hope would be that this would foster the growth of a very robust 'neural net' type structure.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 18, 2015, 06:32:26 PM

Something went wrong with cypherdoc's thread and his poll.  I thought I'd ping my sister thread at this juncture.  Here's the standing of the now-locked thread at fail time:

Quote
Question:    Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes    267 (71.2%)
2.  no    108 (28.8%)
Total Voters: 375

And, for logging purpose, here's there real poll of this thread:

Quote
Question:    Will you support switching Bitcoin over to Hearn's XT alt with it's exponential bloat by the first of the year 2016?
Fuck No!    20 (42.6%)
Hell Yeah!    27 (57.4%)
Total Voters: 47

I pointed out years ago that cypherdoc was acting a lot like Hearn's little ho-bitch.  Probably in association with one of Hearn's multiple attempts to insert tainting into Bitcoin Core.  Cypherdoc bristled at the time.  Now with the XT attack this reality couldn't be more clear.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on August 18, 2015, 06:40:22 PM

Something went wrong with cypherdoc's thread and his poll.  I thought I'd ping my sister thread at this juncture.  Here's the standing of the now-locked thread at fail time:

Quote
Question:    Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes    267 (71.2%)
2.  no    108 (28.8%)
Total Voters: 375

And, for logging purpose, here's there real poll of this thread:

Quote
Question:    Will you support switching Bitcoin over to Hearn's XT alt with it's exponential bloat by the first of the year 2016?
Fuck No!    20 (42.6%)
Hell Yeah!    27 (57.4%)
Total Voters: 47

I pointed out years ago that cypherdoc was acting a lot like Hearn's little ho-bitch.  Probably in association with one of Hearn's multiple attempts to insert tainting into Bitcoin Core.  Cypherdoc bristled at the time.  Now with the XT attack this reality couldn't be more clear.



Just a quick question (still need my fix as I'm having withdrawal) is you "crack" pure and un-moderate like the stuff I used to get over at the other place befor the authorities shut it down?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 18, 2015, 06:44:35 PM

Just a quick question (still need my fix as I'm having withdrawal) is you "crack" pure and un-moderate like the stuff I used to get over at the other place befor the authorities shut it down?

Your text is a bit difficult to parse, but I would say: 'Yes, kicking your crack habit would be advisable if you can do it.'

edit:  More seriously, I don't expect this thread to go anywhere.  I am pretty negative about censorship generally and I've credited theymos repeatedly for running a forum which is intollerant of it more than almost any I know of.  I can imagine only a tiny corner-case where I would censor any thread.

I never pay any attention to a moderated thread unless I don't notice that it is moderated.  In fact, I requested that moderated threads are more noticeable on the forum display as one of the few suggestions I've made on meta so I can not accidentally post to them or read them.

I believe that it is probably impossible to switch a non-moderated thread to a moderated one mostly because I've never seen it happen.  If it were possible cypherdick would probably have done it on his epic sister thread long ago.  Instead he just locks it from time to time when the going gets rough.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on August 18, 2015, 06:58:34 PM

Just a quick question (still need my fix as I'm having withdrawal) is you "crack" pure and un-moderate like the stuff I used to get over at the other place befor the authorities shut it down?

Your text is a bit difficult to parse, but I would say: 'Yes, kicking your crack habit would be advisable if you can do it.'



you mean leave bitcointalk?

**edit**
I was trying to use humor and implying most of the contributes to cypher's thread, even bitcointalk seem to have an almost unhealthy habit of checking in daily and spending a lot of time on bitcointalk.

i would consider carrying on as normal over here, if its not moderated. just wondering if you set up the page as self moderatored or not?  


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 18, 2015, 07:03:27 PM

Just a quick question (still need my fix as I'm having withdrawal) is you "crack" pure and un-moderate like the stuff I used to get over at the other place befor the authorities shut it down?

Your text is a bit difficult to parse, but I would say: 'Yes, kicking your crack habit would be advisable if you can do it.'



you mean leave bitcointalk?

Shudder the thought!  bitcointalk.org is my life and I'm sure it is the same way for everyone ;)

I followed up with this edit:

edit:  More seriously, I don't expect this thread to go anywhere.  I am pretty negative about censorship generally and I've credited theymos repeatedly for running a forum which is intolerant of it more than almost any I know of.  I can imagine only a tiny corner-case where I would censor any thread.

I never pay any attention to a moderated thread unless I don't notice that it is moderated.  In fact, I requested that moderated threads are more noticeable on the forum display as one of the few suggestions I've made on meta so I can not accidentally post to them or read them.

I believe that it is probably impossible to switch a non-moderated thread to a moderated one mostly because I've never seen it happen.  If it were possible cypherdick would probably have done it on his epic sister thread long ago.  Instead he just locks it from time to time when the going gets rough.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on August 18, 2015, 07:08:09 PM
Great,

so apart from the last 2 pages of posts that were deleted this is where we left off:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg12175430#msg12175430


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 18, 2015, 07:14:12 PM
Great,

so apart from the last 2 pages of posts that were deleted this is where we left off:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg12175430#msg12175430

My little creation that I am espeically proud of fell victim to the censors:


Who's the shilliest shill we know?
  cypherdoc! cypherdoc!

Who's Mike Hearn's biggest Ho?
  cypherdoc! cypherdoc!

Who will nuke your eyes 'till they glow?
  cypherdoc! cypherdoc!
...




Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
Post by: Adrian-x on August 18, 2015, 07:22:30 PM
Great,

so apart from the last 2 pages of posts that were deleted this is where we left off:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg12175430#msg12175430

My little creation that I am espeically proud of fell victim to the censors:



what do you mean its still here?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.
Post by: tvbcof on August 18, 2015, 07:41:43 PM
Great,

so apart from the last 2 pages of posts that were deleted this is where we left off:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg12175430#msg12175430

My little creation that I am espeically proud of fell victim to the censors:


what do you mean its still here?

I got a mail in my inbox saying the post was deleted as 'off-topic'.  I didn't even bother to check.  cypherdoc's thread shows up as locked so it's not very interesting to me.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 19, 2015, 12:34:54 AM
 ;)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: smoothie on August 19, 2015, 03:49:51 AM
he locked his thread?

Anyone know why?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 19, 2015, 03:59:43 AM
he locked his thread?

Anyone know why?

thread was locked by the admins for being off-topic.

I don't necessarily agree but I'm having a big laugh at how cypherdoc must be fuming right now. His life's work, all gone  :D


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on August 19, 2015, 04:02:51 AM
he locked his thread?

Anyone know why?

thread was locked by the admins for being off-topic.

I don't necessarily agree but I'm having a big laugh at how cypherdoc must be fuming right now. His life's work, all gone  :D

life's work? its still there its not just cypher it's everyone how has contributed, i think the work of the last 5 years is dumping on the market right now. cheep coins


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: smoothie on August 19, 2015, 04:03:19 AM
he locked his thread?

Anyone know why?

thread was locked by the admins for being off-topic.

I don't necessarily agree but I'm having a big laugh at how cypherdoc must be fuming right now. His life's work, all gone  :D

oh the admins locked it?

interesting.

So instead of moving it let's lock it?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 19, 2015, 04:05:13 AM
he locked his thread?

Anyone know why?

thread was locked by the admins for being off-topic.

I don't necessarily agree but I'm having a big laugh at how cypherdoc must be fuming right now. His life's work, all gone  :D

oh the admins locked it?

interesting.

So instead of moving it let's lock it?

They moved it to altcoins sections first


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 04:46:27 AM
he locked his thread?

Anyone know why?

thread was locked by the admins for being off-topic.

I don't necessarily agree but I'm having a big laugh at how cypherdoc must be fuming right now. His life's work, all gone  :D

I'll bet that cypherdoc locked it himself when the laundry-mark that is XT started to really be exposed. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156489.0)

The nice thing about allowing attackers to use a forum is that it becomes possible to pin people who have put in a lot of effort.  Looking through the now-locked thread, I identify some of the primary petites taches de merde as so:

 - cypherdoc
 - justusranvier
 - peter r
 - solex
 - erdogan
 - zarathustra
 - smooth/rocks
 - majamalu
 - stolfi (honorable mention - still as active as ever elsewhere.)

Some of them have really put in some effort over the years.  Others not mentioned are more likely to simply have been duped.  Interestingly, when I was doing a quick skim to make this list I noticed that most of these folks went dark within a stretch of hours of when cypherdoc did.

And the list of some of the people who were especially tenacious at fighting the good fight:

 - iCEBREAKER
 - brg444
 - hdbuck
 - Marcus_of_Augustus
 - tvbcof (me)
 - odalv
 
and lots of people who chimed in letting people know that they have not been fooled.  It's hard to gauge how many people's eyes were opened to the hostile takeover attempt but I'll bet it was a lot.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 19, 2015, 04:53:26 AM
Privacy backdoor in XT code? https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hixp5/uhoh_privacy_backdoor_in_the_new_fork (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hixp5/uhoh_privacy_backdoor_in_the_new_fork)

(note how XT supporters wanted to get this banned from r/bitcoin)

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hil8h/bitcoindev_bitcoin_xts_tor_ip_blacklist (https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hil8h/bitcoindev_bitcoin_xts_tor_ip_blacklist) Peter Todd peeing truthiness in the r/bitcoinXT punchbowl.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 05:03:57 AM
Privacy backdoor in XT code? https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hixp5/uhoh_privacy_backdoor_in_the_new_fork (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hixp5/uhoh_privacy_backdoor_in_the_new_fork)

(note how XT supporters wanted to get this banned from r/bitcoin)

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hil8h/bitcoindev_bitcoin_xts_tor_ip_blacklist (https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hil8h/bitcoindev_bitcoin_xts_tor_ip_blacklist) Peter Todd peeing truthiness in the r/bitcoinXT punchbowl.

How fast they go from "HALP!  We're being oppressed and censored!" to "Um, can you perhaps move this thread to where nobody notices it?  Pretty please with sugar on the top!" 

Example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156489.msg12180252#msg12180252

LOL.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: rocks on August 19, 2015, 05:13:22 AM
You guys cheering thermos' censoring of the thread is just sad.

You do understand that just because you silence others that does not make their ideas magically go away, and it does not make you right.

But you always had a losing argument, must feel nice to have the thread censored to get you off the hook of having to continue to defend obvious nonsense.

You guys pulled the nuclear option and deleted/sanitized all discussion you disagree with from /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org. If you have to resort to that it always means you are on the wrong side.

So bask in your assumed victory now that there is no one left to question you. It's going to be a short lived one.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 05:15:52 AM
You guys cheering thermos' censoring of the thread is just sad.

You do understand that just because you silence others that does not make their ideas magically go away, and it does not make you right.

But you always had a losing argument, must feel nice to have the thread censored to get you off the hook of having to continue to defend obvious nonsense.

You guys pulled the nuclear option and deleted/sanitized all discussion you disagree with from /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org. If you have to resort to that it always means you are on the wrong side.

So bask in your assumed victory now that there is no one left to question you. It's going to be a short lived one.

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 05:23:53 AM
You guys cheering thermos' censoring of the thread is just sad.

You do understand that just because you silence others that does not make their ideas magically go away, and it does not make you right.

But you always had a losing argument, must feel nice to have the thread censored to get you off the hook of having to continue to defend obvious nonsense.

You guys pulled the nuclear option and deleted/sanitized all discussion you disagree with from /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org. If you have to resort to that it always means you are on the wrong side.

So bask in your assumed victory now that there is no one left to question you. It's going to be a short lived one.

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.



You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 05:31:30 AM
he locked his thread?

Anyone know why?

thread was locked by the admins for being off-topic.

I don't necessarily agree but I'm having a big laugh at how cypherdoc must be fuming right now. His life's work, all gone  :D

I'll bet that cypherdoc locked it himself when the laundry-mark that is XT started to really be exposed. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156489.0)

The nice thing about allowing attackers to use a forum is that it becomes possible to pin people who have put in a lot of effort.  Looking through the now-locked thread, I identify some of the primary petites taches de merde as so:

 - cypherdoc
 - justusranvier
 - peter r
 - solex
 - erdogan
 - zarathustra
 - smooth/rocks
 - majamalu
 - stolfi (honorable mention - still as active as ever elsewhere.)

Some of them have really put in some effort over the years.  Others not mentioned are more likely to simply have been duped.  Interestingly, when I was doing a quick skim to make this list I noticed that most of these folks went dark within a stretch of hours of when cypherdoc did.

And the list of some of the people who were especially tenacious at fighting the good fight:

 - iCEBREAKER
 - brg444
 - hdbuck
 - Marcus_of_Augustus
 - tvbcof (me)
 - odalv
 
and lots of people who chimed in letting people know that they have not been fooled.  It's hard to gauge how many people's eyes were opened to the hostile takeover attempt but I'll bet it was a lot.



Quite a stark contrast in brain power versus thuggery you got there.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 19, 2015, 05:42:01 AM
You guys cheering thermos' censoring of the thread is just sad.

You do understand that just because you silence others that does not make their ideas magically go away, and it does not make you right.

But you always had a losing argument, must feel nice to have the thread censored to get you off the hook of having to continue to defend obvious nonsense.

You guys pulled the nuclear option and deleted/sanitized all discussion you disagree with from /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org. If you have to resort to that it always means you are on the wrong side.

So bask in your assumed victory now that there is no one left to question you. It's going to be a short lived one.

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.



You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.

... and here comes the compromised shill to lecture others on ethics. Have you no shame?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 05:48:10 AM
You guys cheering thermos' censoring of the thread is just sad.

You do understand that just because you silence others that does not make their ideas magically go away, and it does not make you right.

But you always had a losing argument, must feel nice to have the thread censored to get you off the hook of having to continue to defend obvious nonsense.

You guys pulled the nuclear option and deleted/sanitized all discussion you disagree with from /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org. If you have to resort to that it always means you are on the wrong side.

So bask in your assumed victory now that there is no one left to question you. It's going to be a short lived one.

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.



You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.

... and here comes the compromised shill to lecture others on ethics. Have you no shame?

Ah, little marcus, the slime ball Blockstream shill who shamelessly publishes a malicious  scammer thread without any evidence and that's in dispute. No guilty verdict there.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on August 19, 2015, 05:48:16 AM
Hard forks are 51% attacks, we need side-chains

To get some perspective on the logic I want to promote, first read theymos's Reddit sticky post (he is the moderator or r/bitcoin and also one of the owners of Bitcointalk.org):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/

You can also read the very respected Bitcoin research Meni Rosenfeld's comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

I also note this hostile new "feature" (a.k.a. trojan horse) in Bitcoin XT (a.k.a. GavinCoin):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156489.0


But let me attempt to remove my subjective opinion from the objective logic I want to present.

A hard fork if it succeeds is a majority attack against the minority. Thus it is technically a 51% attack where the adversary that has greater than 50% of the hashrate can always win the longest chain of proof-of-work and thus can dictate to the minority (that is unless the minority can distinguish which blocks are being produced by the adversary and decide to never mine on them, thus maintaining their minority hashrate chain as distinct).

For example, afaics the change to Bitcoin XT to blacklist the Tor exit node IP addresses does not make the blocks produced by Bitcoin XT miners distinguishable from those blocks mined by those running Bitcoin Core full nodes.

Of course once Bitcoin XT nodes begin producing blocks greater than 1 MB in size, these blocks would be distinguished as not being produced by Bitcoin Core miners. However, note that one of the characteristics of a 51% attack is that it can indeed change the protocol. Of course the minority can refuse to mine on the new protocol, but given that network hashrate is so crucial for security in Bitcoin's design, it is doubtful that a minority block chain could survive because the network hashrate of the majority (especially a significant majority) could be diverted to execute large double-spends on the minority chain wrecking havoc. Just the threat of that possibility is probably enough to cause significant HODLers to sell their coins on the minority fork causing it's price to diverge downwards.

Thus, network hashrate political wars are attempts to make 51% attacks. They are adversarial.

All of this could be avoided with two improvements to crypto-currency technology:

  • Side-chains so HODLers can move their Bitcoin value to the protocol of their choice.
  • A way to filter 51% attacks, so that network hashrate is not a weapon of mass destruction, and so the principle of side-chains can work correctly.

Blockstream is implementing the first improvement. I am implementing (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1049048.msg12175683#msg12175683) the second improvement.

Note there are some issues with side-chains that have to be dealt with carefully. The movement of coins between chains needs to have long lock up times to insure that reorganizations due to orphaned chains can't create a chaotic mixed up outcome (namely duplicate copies of coins) that can't be restored. Speculators can help users move their coins faster between chains for a fee which covers their opportunity cost and risks in the lock up.

It is time we put an end to this nonsense, by using technology to do so.

P.S. note I am formerly the username AnonyMint (and numerous usernames hence), which I abandoned last year to try to encourage myself to stop wasting so much time posting in forums. When I first joined this forum as AnonyMint in Spring 2013, I wrote an article "Bitcoin : The Digital Kill Switch" which Google will confirm to you was published around the web a bit. My real name is on that article.



Hope everyone has collected their free money...

Well in May I wrote in several Economics -> Speculation threads that BTC would rise from the low $200s to $315, then it would crash back down to eventually below $150 (and probably to double-digits) no later than sometime after October.

I reiterated these points over the past weeks in the Economics -> Speculation -> PnF and Economics -> Speculation -> Free Money threads. Even a few hours before the crash I reiterated these points again that everyone should have been short since $315.

The bottom in the BTC price will come in Spring 2016, and it will be back below $100, perhaps even below $50.

After that, we will start a new bull market that will make investors rich.

If you weren't dumb, you'd learn to stop ignoring me. You'd be clicking my Profile and reading all my archive of posts.

But you are dumb and lazy, so you won't do that. And so you will remain ignorant. And I sort of like that, don't you?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 19, 2015, 05:49:18 AM
Hard forks are 51% attacks, we need side-chains

 :D

If that's your new twist I'm gonna have to get on board with you.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 05:50:05 AM

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.

You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.

... and here comes the compromised shill to lecture others on ethics. Have you no shame?

He's always welcome on my thread even if he is the kind of pansy who messed up his own and tried to blame others for it.  Cypherdoc is his own worst enemy when he flaps his gums in the presence of people smart enough and informed enough to matter.

BTW, cypherdoc:  Gold up, Bitcoin collapsing...thanks in no small part to your own efforts.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on August 19, 2015, 05:56:08 AM
Hard forks are 51% attacks, we need side-chains

 :D

If that's your new twist I'm gonna have to get on board with you.

It is just a way of clarifying what I've been thinking and working on for the past 3 - 4 months.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 05:56:23 AM

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.

You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.

... and here comes the compromised shill to lecture others on ethics. Have you no shame?

He's always welcome on my thread even if he is the kind of pansy who messed up his own and tried to blame others for it.  Cypherdoc is his own worst enemy when he flaps his gums in the presence of people smart enough and informed enough to matter.

BTW, cypherdoc:  Gold up, Bitcoin collapsing...thanks in no small part to your own efforts.



Notice how your thread is totally devoid of any intellectual content or insight. That's because you're the OP. it will never amount to anything because you have nothing of intellectual value to offer . Just thuggery. That list of guys you put yourself in can and will  enjoy each other's circle jerk.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 19, 2015, 05:58:39 AM

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.

You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.

... and here comes the compromised shill to lecture others on ethics. Have you no shame?

He's always welcome on my thread even if he is the kind of pansy who messed up his own and tried to blame others for it.  Cypherdoc is his own worst enemy when he flaps his gums in the presence of people smart enough and informed enough to matter.

BTW, cypherdoc:  Gold up, Bitcoin collapsing...thanks in no small part to your own efforts.



Notice how your thread is totally devoid of any intellectual content or insight. That's because you're the OP. it will never amount to anything because you have nothing of intellectual value to offer . Just thuggery. That list of guys you put yourself in can and will  enjoy each other's circle jerk.

Bro, your fork, it's broken: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156489.0


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Cconvert2G36 on August 19, 2015, 05:58:55 AM

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.

You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.

... and here comes the compromised shill to lecture others on ethics. Have you no shame?

He's always welcome on my thread even if he is the kind of pansy who messed up his own and tried to blame others for it.  Cypherdoc is his own worst enemy when he flaps his gums in the presence of people smart enough and informed enough to matter.

BTW, cypherdoc:  Gold up, Bitcoin collapsing...thanks in no small part to your own efforts.



It's all your fault cypherdoc...  ::)

The link for the years of discussions that are not fit for consumption by bitcoin speculators:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.31200 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.31200)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: LightRider on August 19, 2015, 06:00:34 AM
The great thing about bitcoin is that it doesn't enable tyrants.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 19, 2015, 06:12:57 AM

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.

You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.

... and here comes the compromised shill to lecture others on ethics. Have you no shame?

He's always welcome on my thread even if he is the kind of pansy who messed up his own and tried to blame others for it.  Cypherdoc is his own worst enemy when he flaps his gums in the presence of people smart enough and informed enough to matter.

BTW, cypherdoc:  Gold up, Bitcoin collapsing...thanks in no small part to your own efforts.



Notice how your thread is totally devoid of any intellectual content or insight. That's because you're the OP. it will never amount to anything because you have nothing of intellectual value to offer . Just thuggery. That list of guys you put yourself in can and will  enjoy each other's circle jerk.

Bro, your fork, it's broken: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156489.0

I'm saving all the code here just in case they decide to hide it. We need a skilled programmer to go through this and see just how bad it is, there's so much code itd be easy to hide some malicious stuff in here.

Keep in mind this code is all for the IP logger and blacklist, they worked hard on this! I would just post it here but it is an absolutely immense amount of code.

There's both a whitelist and a blacklist, like Coinbase. From what I can tell it is NOT all objective, they can subjectively put people on the lists. This would give them complete control of anyone who uses Bitcoin.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLnBVYGlyDsT25MNExSUDB2NTA/view?usp=sharing

Keep in mind this code was reviewed and given stamp of approval by your very own Gavin.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: smfuser on August 19, 2015, 07:10:41 AM
The nice thing about allowing attackers to use a forum is that it becomes possible to pin people who have put in a lot of effort.  Looking through the now-locked thread, I identify some of the primary petites taches de merde as so:

 - cypherdoc
 - justusranvier
 - peter r
 - solex
 - erdogan
 - zarathustra
 - smooth/rocks
 - majamalu
 - stolfi (honorable mention - still as active as ever elsewhere.)
If you're suggesting smooth and rocks are the same, can you please explain why?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 07:24:05 AM
The nice thing about allowing attackers to use a forum is that it becomes possible to pin people who have put in a lot of effort.  Looking through the now-locked thread, I identify some of the primary petites taches de merde as so:

 - cypherdoc
 - justusranvier
 - peter r
 - solex
 - erdogan
 - zarathustra
 - smooth/rocks
 - majamalu
 - stolfi (honorable mention - still as active as ever elsewhere.)

If you're suggesting smooth and rocks are the same, can you please explain why?

They just always kinda seemed the same to me.  They seemed to come into my vision at about the same time and seemed fairly reasonable then subtly shifted into being increasingly XT pumpers.  The 'suggestion' was actually a bit of a probe to see what reaction I got if any.

I have a lot of difficulty imagining anyone who's reasonably intelligent and informed not seeing XT as probably being anything other than what has seemingly turned out to be.  Certainly there was a high probability of this simply from the guy who was the driving force behind it.  I just cannot square this with anyone who had any interest in Bitcoin based on it's initial virtues.  So I am deeply suspicious of anyone who had ever supported XT, and especially those who became more vocal in this support rather than less as time went by and more information became available.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: klee on August 19, 2015, 07:29:43 AM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 19, 2015, 07:31:20 AM

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.

You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.

... and here comes the compromised shill to lecture others on ethics. Have you no shame?

He's always welcome on my thread even if he is the kind of pansy who messed up his own and tried to blame others for it.  Cypherdoc is his own worst enemy when he flaps his gums in the presence of people smart enough and informed enough to matter.

BTW, cypherdoc:  Gold up, Bitcoin collapsing...thanks in no small part to your own efforts.


Your thread? 'Your' thread is nothing more than a stalker's thread, and you have never been something different in cypherdoc's thread. You will never be able to attract those thinkers. Your followers here will be cyper's other stalkers, the warriors and destroyers. Their popescu style 'language' says it all. Their language and mentality is one of the reasons why they are loosing ground against Gavin so fast. You can't win an idealist community that way. You are downvoted everywhere.

BTW: Gold collapsing ...

http://twocents.blogs.com/.a/6a00d8341d5b2653ef01156f1f5db4970c-800wi



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on August 19, 2015, 07:38:50 AM
....in cypherdoc's thread... attract those thinkers.

The thinkers long since left that noise chamber. The guys who remained have nothing better to do but waste their time.

The entire issue is going to become mute, because there is technology to solve the damn problem.

Block size will never be an issue again.

Fools will waste their life discussing something which is soon to be an outdated non-issue.

While you all were busy circle jerking, I was solving the problem.

P.S. I am not cheering the censoring of cyperdorc's thread, but none of these threads about XT hidden inside a lying topic name (Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP) should be in the Economics -> Speculation subforum. They belong in a Bitcoin Discussion -> Speculation subforum or better in the Altcoin Discussion forum. I can't understand why the moderators were so derelict in their duties for such a long time. But locking cyperdorc's thread is inappropriate. Come on theymos, move these threads instead.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 19, 2015, 07:44:48 AM
https://i.imgur.com/EYATiQv.jpg

You guys cheering thermos' censoring of the thread is just sad.   :'(
it does not make you right.  >:(
it always means you are on the wrong side.   :'(

Mods gonna moderate.  That's kind of their job.  Frap.doc knew the rules about alt-coins, yet continued to shill for XT in the wrong sub.

On dozens of occasions, I told you XT was going to get #R3KT.  Not we find out it includes NSA IP phone-home/blacklist BS.

they hid a sophisticated program which logs your ip even if you're on proxy or tor, and they add IPs to a blacklist and whitelist. It's not all objective, they can add people at will too. This is much worse than I ever thought, they can control every bitcoin user if they got their fork. It would end bitcoin as we know it. It's a horrible and disgusting abuse of Bitcoin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156489.0

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLnBVYGlyDsT25MNExSUDB2NTA/view?usp=sharing

As if the Gavinistas didn't have enough trouble already, being so busy pretending NotXT isn't literally making a mockery (http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/mockery) of their node % figures.   :D


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 19, 2015, 08:33:18 AM
....in cypherdoc's thread... attract those thinkers.


Fools will waste their life discussing something which is soon to be an outdated non-issue.

While you all were busy circle jerking, I was solving the problem.


q.e.d.

This thread is for warriors, BREAKERS, destroyers or people who seriously write sentences like that: "While you all were busy circlejerking, I was solving the problem."

Since 1 week there are (net) zero node upgrades to 1MB-0.11.0, while the XMB-0.11.0 version went to 800.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 19, 2015, 09:12:29 AM

Nobody I can think of advocated censoring or sterilizing anything.  For all we know cypherdoc himself picked up his ball and went home.

You're  still as stupid ever and willing to throw loose  allegations around like vomit.

You're still going to lose because of all your unethical tactics.

... and here comes the compromised shill to lecture others on ethics. Have you no shame?

He's always welcome on my thread even if he is the kind of pansy who messed up his own and tried to blame others for it.  Cypherdoc is his own worst enemy when he flaps his gums in the presence of people smart enough and informed enough to matter.

BTW, cypherdoc:  Gold up, Bitcoin collapsing...thanks in no small part to your own efforts.



Notice how your thread is totally devoid of any intellectual content or insight. That's because you're the OP. it will never amount to anything because you have nothing of intellectual value to offer . Just thuggery. That list of guys you put yourself in can and will  enjoy each other's circle jerk.

Bro, your fork, it's broken: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156489.0

I'm saving all the code here just in case they decide to hide it. We need a skilled programmer to go through this and see just how bad it is, there's so much code itd be easy to hide some malicious stuff in here.

Keep in mind this code is all for the IP logger and blacklist, they worked hard on this! I would just post it here but it is an absolutely immense amount of code.

There's both a whitelist and a blacklist, like Coinbase. From what I can tell it is NOT all objective, they can subjectively put people on the lists. This would give them complete control of anyone who uses Bitcoin.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLnBVYGlyDsT25MNExSUDB2NTA/view?usp=sharing

Keep in mind this code was reviewed and given stamp of approval by your very own Gavin.

If you dont like that 'feature' - switch it off.. ???

That said, it would have been better if it was off by default, but I doubt the hysterics would have gone any different. 

No need to keep things on google docs btw - there is a thing called source control, its all historied and open.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 10:51:27 AM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...

You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.
.
XT continuing to ramp. 848!


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: klee on August 19, 2015, 10:58:13 AM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...

You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.
.
XT continuing to ramp. 848!
LOL - how am I rekted? My USD are safe & rallying!

I will buy the shitcoin that will win in this mess when we reach sub 100s...

You get used to red candles  ;D


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 19, 2015, 11:43:44 AM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...

You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.
.
XT continuing to ramp. 848!

theymos:

Satoshi definitely intended to increase the hard max block size. See:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.0

I believe that Satoshi expected most people to use some sort of lightweight node, with only companies and true enthusiasts being full nodes. Mike Hearn's view is similar to Satoshi's view.

I strongly disagree with the idea that changing the max block size is a violation of the "Bitcoin currency guarantees". Satoshi said that the max block size could be increased, and the max block size is never mentioned in any of the standard descriptions of the Bitcoin system.

IMO Mike Hearn's plan would probably work. The market/community would find a way to pay for the network's security, and it would be easy enough to become a full node that the currency wouldn't be at risk. The max block size would not truly be unlimited, since miners would always need to produce blocks that the vast majority of full nodes and other miners would be able and willing to process in a reasonable amount of time.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140233.msg1492629#msg1492629


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 19, 2015, 11:50:34 AM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...
You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.

your powers of projection are becoming insanely good, almost as good as your infomercial shilling skills.
http://www.econotimes.com/Federal-Judge-approves-fraud-claims-against-HashFast-77641 (http://www.econotimes.com/Federal-Judge-approves-fraud-claims-against-HashFast-77641)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 19, 2015, 12:05:23 PM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...
You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.

your powers of projection are becoming insanely good, almost as good as your infomercial shilling skills.
http://www.econotimes.com/Federal-Judge-approves-fraud-claims-against-HashFast-77641 (http://www.econotimes.com/Federal-Judge-approves-fraud-claims-against-HashFast-77641)

 ???  That article says the judge dismissed the personal claim. 


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 12:32:09 PM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...
You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.

your powers of projection are becoming insanely good, almost as good as your infomercial shilling skills.
http://www.econotimes.com/Federal-Judge-approves-fraud-claims-against-HashFast-77641 (http://www.econotimes.com/Federal-Judge-approves-fraud-claims-against-HashFast-77641)

Your powers of desperately trying to tie any of this to the Blockstream scam is ridiculous. You're dev-child:

However, the judge dismissed claims against Simon Barber, stating:"With regard to restitution against Barber individually, plaintiff contends that Barber personally benefitted from the unlawful business practices by taking salary bonuses from the proceeds received on undelivered BabyJet orders," Judge Davila said. "Again, although the allegations may ultimately prove untrue, that determination must wait for another day."
Read more at http://www.econotimes.com/Federal-Judge-approves-fraud-claims-against-HashFast-77641#AozrxV2Xvtg04s3z.99


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 02:21:20 PM

Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...

You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.

your powers of projection are becoming insanely good, almost as good as your infomercial shilling skills.
http://www.econotimes.com/Federal-Judge-approves-fraud-claims-against-HashFast-77641 (http://www.econotimes.com/Federal-Judge-approves-fraud-claims-against-HashFast-77641)

Yikes!  If I'd made a ton shilling for something which is shaping up to be very possibly a fraud in the eyes of the court, and I was the only person who did seem to make any money off it, I might be as cranky as the doc here.  Especially if the only money to be found was sitting in a 3000 BTC wallet under my control.  One suspects that he may have been instructed to not be moving them around to much.

I hope cypherdoc's hands don't quiver to much when he thinks about dropping the soap as he's operating on someone's eyeballs.  Now I understand 'smooth's avatar better...he's must have been one of cypherdoc's patients and it's a warning!



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: zanzibar on August 19, 2015, 03:20:57 PM
Wha Happened....to the original thread?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: --Encrypted-- on August 19, 2015, 03:22:26 PM
Wha Happened....to the original thread?

XT happened. thread got derailed.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1155952.0


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 03:41:59 PM
Wha Happened....to the original thread?

theymos via BadBear locked the thread purportedly for being "off topic".  really it was b/c we were talking about XT.

note how this thread is similarly off topic in that no one talks about gold for the most part.  it's all about pushing the Core agenda and the mods don't have any problem with that.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: smoothie on August 19, 2015, 03:43:07 PM
Wha Happened....to the original thread?

theymos via BadBear locked the thread purportedly for being "off topic".  really it was b/c we were talking about XT.

note how this thread is similarly off topic in that no one talks about gold for the most part.  it's all about pushing the Core agenda and the mods don't have any problem with that.

i thought forum policy is to move off-topic threads to their appropriate section.

Not lock it.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: --Encrypted-- on August 19, 2015, 03:47:35 PM
Wha Happened....to the original thread?

theymos via BadBear locked the thread purportedly for being "off topic".  really it was b/c we were talking about XT.

note how this thread is similarly off topic in that no one talks about gold for the most part.  it's all about pushing the Core agenda and the mods don't have any problem with that.

i thought forum policy is to move off-topic threads to their appropriate section.

Not lock it.

they did moved it to the altcoin section. but perhaps the amount of complain is unbearable and he decide to move it back and lock it. it works. no more complains.  :P

edit:
btw I voted wrong because I thought the bottom option is "NO". and I can't remove it.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: zanzibar on August 19, 2015, 03:53:37 PM
Wha Happened....to the original thread?

theymos via BadBear locked the thread purportedly for being "off topic".  really it was b/c we were talking about XT.

note how this thread is similarly off topic in that no one talks about gold for the most part.  it's all about pushing the Core agenda and the mods don't have any problem with that.

I wasn't aware there was such a thing as "off topic" in any thread on BTT. What a bunch of horse shit.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 04:13:14 PM
Wha Happened....to the original thread?

theymos via BadBear locked the thread purportedly for being "off topic".  really it was b/c we were talking about XT.

note how this thread is similarly off topic in that no one talks about gold for the most part.  it's all about pushing the Core agenda and the mods don't have any problem with that.

I wasn't aware there was such a thing as "off topic" in any thread on BTT. What a bunch of horse shit.

i wasn't either; esp when it was my thread to begin with.  but maybe that's their problem; me being the OP.  plus, any moved thread normally leaves a courtesy notice for a day or so with the clear moniker [MOVED] attached with a link.  not this time at_all.  just vanished.  and note how pages are disappearing from the locked thread as they go thru and censor parts they don't want read.  

and just what is off topic in a thread that's lasted 4 years and has 1.45M views and 31K posts?  for the several days right before it got locked it was racking up about 7000 views per day.  that's how popular it was.  but that's the pt isn't it?  stop the popularity before it gets out of hand.

just look at the bullshit from BadBear:

The thread shouldn't have been hijacked in the first place, what a mess. The thread is mostly about XT now, and the only graphs posted are XT related.

It would be a lot of work to split or delete all the XT posts. Splitting is not easy to do in SMF, especially with large threads, and many posts to be split. So that isn't an option.

It could stay in speculation since the majority of the thread is relevant, but all XT chat from here on out to be moderated.

Might be better to just lock the thread since it's so far off track at this point.

 


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 04:19:58 PM
i just went back and looked at every post in this thread.

not one post about gold.

off topic ---> lock.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Chalkbot on August 19, 2015, 04:38:56 PM
i just went back and looked at every post in this thread.

not one post about gold.

off topic ---> lock.

Perhaps this thread is speculation about another thread called Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Peter R on August 19, 2015, 04:39:25 PM
I haven't been posting much here because I'm not sure what the new rules are. 

Questions:

1.  Are we allowed to talk about non Bitcoin Core implementations of the protocol?

2.  Are we allowed to criticize the moderators?

3.  Can I post /u/raisethelimit's lasted comic?  [lol it involves a CONSENS-A-TRONTM]


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Torque on August 19, 2015, 04:44:06 PM
I haven't been posting much here because I'm not sure what the new rules are.  

Questions:

1.  Are we allowed to talk about non Bitcoin Core implementations of the protocol?

2.  Are we allowed to criticize the moderators?

3.  Can I post /u/raisethelimit's lasted comic?  [lol it involves a CONSENS-A-TRONTM]

Well that's just the crux of it, isn't it?  

When the rules get changed and made up by the Mods at their whim, while the existing forum guidelines are never even enforced and throwaway Troll accounts with zero activity get to be made and post inane off-topic crap daily, no one knows what the "new" rules are supposed to be.   ::)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: BldSwtTrs on August 19, 2015, 05:38:38 PM
It's really sad and disturbing.
Beyond the decision to lock the topc which is laughable for a forum whose wealthy admins try to look like free speach advocates, BadBear is lying to justify the decision. It's sad to see such an obvious lie tell with such confidence and perkiness. I hope Bitcointalk will loss its importance.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 05:56:36 PM
Wha Happened....to the original thread?

theymos via BadBear locked the thread purportedly for being "off topic".  really it was b/c we were talking about XT.

note how this thread is similarly off topic in that no one talks about gold for the most part.  it's all about pushing the Core agenda and the mods don't have any problem with that.

Gold up.  Bitcoin collapsing.

Fixed!



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 19, 2015, 06:05:58 PM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...

You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.
.
XT + NotXT continuing to ramp. 848!

FTFY.

Pretending 100% of self-reported node versions are genuine instead of spoofed shows us how dishonest Gavincoiners are.

Is there anything you won't do to mislead the public?

BTW:

http://i.imgur.com/IAZkIFP.png

Code:
R3KT


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 06:10:07 PM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...

You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.
.
XT + NotXT continuing to ramp. 848!

FTFY.

Pretending 100% of self-reported node versions are genuine instead of spoofed shows us how dishonest Gavincoiners are.

Is there anything you won't do to mislead the public?

BTW:

http://i.imgur.com/IAZkIFP.png

Code:
R3KT


thanks for posting that.

the fact that your supposed great Szabo would retweet a stupid tweet like that by btcdrak says alot.

880!


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 06:21:58 PM

Before cypherdoc locked his thread and tried to blame the mods, I asked justusranvier when they anticipated switching the reference implementation of XT over to being from the 'btcd' codebase (written in 'go' rather than based on Satoshi's initial 'c' language.)  He didnt' respond.

Since Mike couldn't help himself and jumped the gun on inserting the basis for blacklisting into his non-fork of Satoshi/Core codebase and someone busted him, it looks like their populist propaganda campaign is going to fail and XT probably won't get even a plurality let alone a consensus.  They may as well switch to 'btcd' now and try.  I guess Gavin recognizes that.

I'd say that Mike's best strategy now would be to do a clean implementation off 'btcd' then use a combination of corporate backing and government mandates to try to steer people into his web of monitoring and control.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 19, 2015, 06:23:46 PM
http://i.imgur.com/F56hISl.jpg

theymos via BadBear locked the thread purportedly for being "off topic"  :'(

it's all about pushing the Core agenda and the mods don't have any problem with that.  :'(

Aww, poor Frap.doc has a sad.

After all your b!tching about altcoins, now you are an altcoiner.  Serves you right!   8)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 06:31:00 PM

Before cypherdoc locked his thread and tried to blame the mods



if you're gonna flat out lie like this, you could at least try a little harder to obfuscate.  this one is so far from the truth for all to see, you're now just making an ass of yourself.  as you've always done.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 19, 2015, 06:31:37 PM
I haven't been posting much here because I'm not sure what the new rules are. 

Questions:

1.  Are we allowed to talk about non Bitcoin Core implementations of the protocol?

2.  Are we allowed to criticize the moderators?

3.  Can I post /u/raisethelimit's lasted comic?  [lol it involves a CONSENS-A-TRONTM]

Your concern about imaginary "new rules" is noted, and questions answered here:

You're just upset because feeling very strongly in favor of XT is not enough to magically raise the block size limit.

So here you are, pouting again.

Here, you can even say stuff like "WTF MILLIONS FOR YET ANOTHER FUCKING FORUM AND PENNIES FOR DDOS PROTECTION, HOW MUCH ARE YOU EMBEZZLING THERMOS?!" and it's cool.  Thermos doesn't GAF.  Watch this:

Quote
Seriously, WHAT GOOD IS A FANCY NEW FORUM IF ITS FUCKING DOWN ALL THE TIME!!!1!

See?  It's fine.  Happens all the time!  Whatever.   8)

You can even mention altcoins on Bitcoin threads (we frequently mention Monero on Frap.doc's thread, just to piss him off, LOL). 

All you have to do is follow the rules about keeping (altcoin) posts in the proper (altcoin) subs.  Once you stop pouting, it's pretty easy.

It's hard to find a more chill admin than thermos.  That's why he was Chosen by Satoshi to run the place.

If you think you can do a better job moderating, https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt could really use your help!


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 06:34:58 PM

Before cypherdoc locked his thread and tried to blame the mods, ...


if you're gonna flat out lie like this, you could at least try a little harder to obfuscate.  this one is so far from the truth for all to see, you're now just making an ass of yourself.  as you've always done.

cypherdoc says:  "HALP!  I'm being oppressed I dropped the soap."



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Odalv on August 19, 2015, 06:39:52 PM
i wasn't either; esp when it was my thread to begin with.  but maybe that's their problem; me being the OP.  plus, any moved thread normally leaves a courtesy notice for a day or so with the clear moniker [MOVED] attached with a link.  not this time at_all.  just vanished.  and note how pages are disappearing from the locked thread as they go thru and censor parts they don't want read.  

and just what is off topic in a thread that's lasted 4 years and has 1.45M views and 31K posts?  for the several days right before it got locked it was racking up about 7000 views per day.  that's how popular it was.  but that's the pt isn't it?  stop the popularity before it gets out of hand.

just look at the bullshit from BadBear:

Do you see how to easy is to shut down centralized service ? ... think about it.

The more bitcoin is decentralized (more full nodes) the better. We need anti-fragile core what cannot be shut down by governments.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 19, 2015, 06:41:23 PM
https://i.imgur.com/EYATiQv.jpg

 :'(  the rules get changed and made up by the Mods at their whim  :'(
existing forum guidelines are never even enforced  >:(
throwaway Troll accounts with zero activity get to be made and post inane off-topic crap daily  >:(
no one knows what the "new" rules are supposed to be.    :'(

No rules have been changed.  Only on /r/ was a temporary 'time-out' for the XT brigade enforced, after a period when they were out of control.

All theymos did was clarify that the *EXISTING* rule against altcoin posts in Bitcon subs applies to XT, because it contains code that attempts, without consensus and despite contention, to create an alternative consensus.  And that, by definition, is an altcoin.

Existing rules are enforced with a light hand.  That is a feature not a bug.  You don't get to complain in the same post about the rules not being enforced and being enforced.   ::)

Your already unseemly self-pity is becoming nauseating.  The sooner you Gavinistas are herded into /v/bitcoinxt to circlejerk yourselves the better.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Torque on August 19, 2015, 06:48:14 PM
<snip>
...
insert stupid attempt at comeback and other stupid attempts at being smarmy
...
</snip>

Dude, can you just STFU for once?  You don't own this forum, so stop acting like you do.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 19, 2015, 07:11:50 PM
Cypher I told you you will get #REKT...

You're the one getting rekt and don't even know it, lol.
.
XT + NotXT continuing to ramp. 848!

FTFY.

Pretending 100% of self-reported node versions are genuine instead of spoofed shows us how dishonest Gavincoiners are.

Is there anything you won't do to mislead the public?

BTW:

http://i.imgur.com/IAZkIFP.png

Code:
R3KT


thanks for posting that.

the fact that your supposed great Szabo would retweet a stupid tweet like that by btcdrak says alot.

880!

Your old ass might have never heard of "Don't hate the player, hate the game"  did ya?

It's really a sad sight when the only eye doctor in the place can't seem to see straight. Largely mystified and completely oblivious to the events unfolding before his very eyes.

While you occupy yourself with this little rally race of anonymous not/-xt-nodes the adults are in the other room trying to figure out the mess you children got us into. A dangerous, unwarranted and most definitely not authorized attack on the network. Yes authorized as in these two balloon blowers don't have the authority to fork under political opinions and organize a veritable PR attack, appealing to their fraudulent identity and to the system's creator vision. A weak, shameless attempt to rip apart the consensus, NOT create a new one.

Let me tell you that fortunately no one with half a brain is buying it. There is too many vetos too share in this ecosystem against XT it has pale chances of ever gaining any significant traction.

http://i.imgur.com/vmUJ3d4.png

That is September 12th. I am confident no major decisions will be taken by any significant actor in the network at least before then.

Meanwhile enjoy your little XT nodes car crash.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 19, 2015, 07:26:04 PM
Cypherdoc's stalkers are still 'alive' ...
While nobody is upgrading to core 0.11.0 since 1 week.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 19, 2015, 07:33:10 PM
Cypherdoc's stalkers are still 'alive' ...
While nobody is upgrading to core 0.11.0

Your first and most obvious mistake is always assuming all nodes are equal.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 07:38:20 PM
Cypherdoc's stalkers are still 'alive' ...
While nobody is upgrading to core 0.11.0

Your first and most obvious mistake is always assuming all nodes are equal.

903 nodes now.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 07:40:24 PM
Cypherdoc's stalkers are still 'alive' ...
While nobody is upgrading to core 0.11.0

Your first and most obvious mistake is always assuming all nodes are equal.

903 nodes now.

and this threads #gold posts = 0


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 19, 2015, 07:42:35 PM
Cypherdoc's stalkers are still 'alive' ...
While nobody is upgrading to core 0.11.0

Your first and most obvious mistake is always assuming all nodes are equal.

903 nodes now.

and this threads #gold posts = 0

 :D

splendid.

your butthurt IS GOLD


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 19, 2015, 07:46:16 PM
Cypherdoc's stalkers are still 'alive' ...
While nobody is upgrading to core 0.11.0

Your first and most obvious mistake is always assuming all nodes are equal.

903 nodes now.

I'm surprised that nobody is upgrading to core 0.11.0 anymore since one week. It stopped abruptly.
Does nobody in the Bitcoin community trust the blockchainers and their cheerleaders who behave like warriors and censoring enthusiast?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Odalv on August 19, 2015, 07:46:44 PM
Cypherdoc's stalkers are still 'alive' ...
While nobody is upgrading to core 0.11.0

Your first and most obvious mistake is always assuming all nodes are equal.

903 nodes now.

https://bitinfocharts.com/litecoin/nodes/

The map shows concentration of 7047 Litecoin nodes


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Odalv on August 19, 2015, 07:56:04 PM
https://github.com/basil00/PseudoNode

pseudonode --coin=bitcoin-xt


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 19, 2015, 07:59:28 PM


Your old ass might have never heard of "Don't hate the player, hate the game"  did ya?

A dangerous, unwarranted and most definitely not authorized attack on the network. Yes authorized as in these two balloon blowers don't have the authority to fork under political opinions and organize a veritable PR attack, appealing to their fraudulent identity and to the system's creator vision. A weak, shameless attempt to rip apart the consensus, NOT create a new one.


That young ass never heard that anyone has the authority to code a client in an open source environment.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 08:00:07 PM
https://github.com/basil00/PseudoNode

pseudonode --coin=bitcoin-xt

no XT'ers are using that.  it was designed by and for the Cripplecoiner's as another tool in their deceptive war tactics.  let them use it and pay the price.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 19, 2015, 08:02:04 PM


Your old ass might have never heard of "Don't hate the player, hate the game"  did ya?

A dangerous, unwarranted and most definitely not authorized attack on the network. Yes authorized as in these two balloon blowers don't have the authority to fork under political opinions and organize a veritable PR attack, appealing to their fraudulent identity and to the system's creator vision. A weak, shameless attempt to rip apart the consensus, NOT create a new one.


That young ass never heard that anyone has the authority to code a client in an open source environment.

Yes, but never the moral authority to force it through everyone's throat with a campaign of coordinated PR hack jobs painted with all the fallacious arguments in the dictum.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Odalv on August 19, 2015, 08:05:47 PM
https://github.com/basil00/PseudoNode

pseudonode --coin=bitcoin-xt

no XT'ers are using that.  it was designed by and for the Cripplecoiner's as another tool in their deceptive war tactics.  let them use it and pay the price.

The only valid proof is POW. ... no XT blocks are mined, only fake nodes are emerging. (new scamCoinsXT)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 19, 2015, 08:06:34 PM


Your old ass might have never heard of "Don't hate the player, hate the game"  did ya?

A dangerous, unwarranted and most definitely not authorized attack on the network. Yes authorized as in these two balloon blowers don't have the authority to fork under political opinions and organize a veritable PR attack, appealing to their fraudulent identity and to the system's creator vision. A weak, shameless attempt to rip apart the consensus, NOT create a new one.


That young ass never heard that anyone has the authority to code a client in an open source environment.

Yes, but never the moral authority to force it through everyone's throat through a campaign of coordinated PR hack jobs.

The moral authority to force it... :D ;D
Ridiculous. A moraliser. You are downvoted everywhere. That's your problem.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: cypherdoc on August 19, 2015, 08:08:01 PM


Your old ass might have never heard of "Don't hate the player, hate the game"  did ya?

A dangerous, unwarranted and most definitely not authorized attack on the network. Yes authorized as in these two balloon blowers don't have the authority to fork under political opinions and organize a veritable PR attack, appealing to their fraudulent identity and to the system's creator vision. A weak, shameless attempt to rip apart the consensus, NOT create a new one.


That young ass never heard that anyone has the authority to code a client in an open source environment.

Yes, but never the moral authority to force it through everyone's throat with a campaign of coordinated PR hack jobs painted with all the fallacious arguments in the dictum.

that's funny.  the only force i see is the censorship.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 19, 2015, 08:12:54 PM


Your old ass might have never heard of "Don't hate the player, hate the game"  did ya?

A dangerous, unwarranted and most definitely not authorized attack on the network. Yes authorized as in these two balloon blowers don't have the authority to fork under political opinions and organize a veritable PR attack, appealing to their fraudulent identity and to the system's creator vision. A weak, shameless attempt to rip apart the consensus, NOT create a new one.


That young ass never heard that anyone has the authority to code a client in an open source environment.

Yes, but never the moral authority to force it through everyone's throat with a campaign of coordinated PR hack jobs painted with all the fallacious arguments in the dictum.

that's funny.  the only force i see is the censorship.

Orwellian speak of the cheerleaders of the censors.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. Censorship is liberalism.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: rocks on August 19, 2015, 08:39:41 PM


Your old ass might have never heard of "Don't hate the player, hate the game"  did ya?

A dangerous, unwarranted and most definitely not authorized attack on the network. Yes authorized as in these two balloon blowers don't have the authority to fork under political opinions and organize a veritable PR attack, appealing to their fraudulent identity and to the system's creator vision. A weak, shameless attempt to rip apart the consensus, NOT create a new one.


That young ass never heard that anyone has the authority to code a client in an open source environment.

Yes, but never the moral authority to force it through everyone's throat with a campaign of coordinated PR hack jobs painted with all the fallacious arguments in the dictum.

that's funny.  the only force i see is the censorship.

Orwellian speak of the cheerleaders of the censors.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. Censorship is liberalism.

Censorship is modern liberalism.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Peter R on August 19, 2015, 10:19:52 PM
Brg444: were you one of the Guinea pigs alpha testers for the new CONSENS-A-TRONTM machine?  Can you describe the experience? 

http://i.imgur.com/2uDkC6g.jpg?1

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hlbfw/the_thermos_has_been_compromised_new_bitcoin_comic/


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 19, 2015, 10:38:20 PM
Wha Happened....to the original thread?

theymos via BadBear locked the thread purportedly for being "off topic".  really it was b/c we were talking about XT.

note how this thread is similarly off topic in that no one talks about gold for the most part.  it's all about pushing the Core agenda and the mods don't have any problem with that.

Le Bron James got benched? ... or an ungracious retirement, the butthurt rage quit is about all that's left from this trick pony methinks.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 19, 2015, 10:43:45 PM


Your old ass might have never heard of "Don't hate the player, hate the game"  did ya?

A dangerous, unwarranted and most definitely not authorized attack on the network. Yes authorized as in these two balloon blowers don't have the authority to fork under political opinions and organize a veritable PR attack, appealing to their fraudulent identity and to the system's creator vision. A weak, shameless attempt to rip apart the consensus, NOT create a new one.


That young ass never heard that anyone has the authority to code a client in an open source environment.

Yes, but never the moral authority to force it through everyone's throat with a campaign of coordinated PR hack jobs painted with all the fallacious arguments in the dictum.

that's funny.  the only force i see is the censorship.

Orwellian speak of the cheerleaders of the censors.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. Censorship is liberalism.


cypherdoc already heavily leveraged theymos's platform in his Hashfast shilling operation and one supposes he didn't give theymos of dime of his 3000 btc haul.

Just like you 'Free Shit Nation' people who think that the world owes you free crypto-currency transactions, you also seem to think that the world owes you a free place to shill for whatever you want.  It is clearly you guys who think of everything as a welfare state and want your entitlements.

When you use 'bitcointalk.org' which was set up for Bitcoin but is kind enough to provide a space for alt discussions won't let you shill (indefinitely) for XT or whatever alt you like anywhere you want, the howls of rage and despair are deafening.  And pretty funny in a lulzy sort of way to say the truth.  I actually don't agree with the mods who locked the predecessor thread, but it is resulting in a barrel of laughs as you guys squeal like stuck pigs.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: rocks on August 20, 2015, 12:26:07 AM
Before cypherdoc locked his thread and tried to blame the mods,

Using censorship to silence any individual or groups of individuals is fundamentally one of the most horrible things that can be done to a human being.

You know that claim is nonsense, but join in the attack to silence others.

You are simply a horrible person, you think you are funny but you are not. Welcome to my permanent ignore list.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 20, 2015, 12:29:49 AM
Before cypherdoc locked his thread and tried to blame the mods,

Using censorship to silence any individual or groups of individuals is fundamentally one of the most horrible things that can be done to a human being.

You know that claim is nonsense, but join in the attack to silence others.

You are simply a horrible person, you think you are funny but you are not. Welcome to my permanent ignore list.

Gavinistas have been censoring people on reddit for months. Stop being an hypocrite. I'm not endorsing any censorship but this attempt from your side at claiming moral high ground is deceitful and unwarranted.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 20, 2015, 12:57:34 AM

Yes, but never the moral authority to force it through everyone's throat with a campaign of coordinated PR hack jobs painted with all the fallacious arguments in the dictum.

Fallacious arguments in the dictum???   I'd say thats kinda painful.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 20, 2015, 01:01:29 AM
Before cypherdoc locked his thread and tried to blame the mods,

Using censorship to silence any individual or groups of individuals is fundamentally one of the most horrible things that can be done to a human being.

You know that claim is nonsense, but join in the attack to silence others.

You are simply a horrible person, you think you are funny but you are not. Welcome to my permanent ignore list.

Gavinistas have been censoring people on reddit for months. Stop being an hypocrite. I'm not endorsing any censorship but this attempt from your side at claiming moral high ground is deceitful and unwarranted.

You've gone beyond even thinking about what you are saying now. Its just a yarn, to be spun out as long as someone will listen to you. You should spend less time spouting pseudo intellectual bullshit and get yourself an education.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 20, 2015, 02:25:56 AM

Before cypherdoc locked his thread and tried to blame the mods,

Using censorship to silence any individual or groups of individuals is fundamentally one of the most horrible things that can be done to a human being.

...

You are simply a horrible person, you think you are funny but you are not. Welcome to my permanent ignore list.

LOL!  You horrible person you.


You know that claim is nonsense, but join in the attack to silence others.

Actually I did strongly suspect that it was an erroneous assertion and did something I rarely do which was to fail to qualify the statement.  This was pure trolling.  It worked.  Well.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 20, 2015, 06:35:15 AM


Your old ass might have never heard of "Don't hate the player, hate the game"  did ya?

A dangerous, unwarranted and most definitely not authorized attack on the network. Yes authorized as in these two balloon blowers don't have the authority to fork under political opinions and organize a veritable PR attack, appealing to their fraudulent identity and to the system's creator vision. A weak, shameless attempt to rip apart the consensus, NOT create a new one.


That young ass never heard that anyone has the authority to code a client in an open source environment.

Yes, but never the moral authority to force it through everyone's throat with a campaign of coordinated PR hack jobs painted with all the fallacious arguments in the dictum.

that's funny.  the only force i see is the censorship.

Orwellian speak of the cheerleaders of the censors.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. Censorship is liberalism.



Just like you 'Free Shit Nation' people who think that the world owes you free crypto-currency transactions, you also seem to think that the world owes you a free place to shill for whatever you want. 


You are a notorious liar ("cypherdoc locked his thread"). A forum owner has a right to be a living cartoon of a libertarian, to be a Janus head to spread the opposite of satoshis and his own vision now, a right to destroy himself, his reputation, his forums and spitting on his guests (contributors and sponsors), and his guests have a right to unmask such behavior. It is only sad, but that's life.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 20, 2015, 07:02:46 PM

Gold up.  Bitcoin might be recovering ever so slightly from the Hearn's XT hostile takeover attempt but it's hard to say.  Certainly some significant damage was done to the market depth.  Anyone using that as an indicator over the last month got kicked hard in the balls.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on August 20, 2015, 08:13:09 PM
and just what is off topic in a thread that's lasted 4 years and has 1.45M views and 31K posts?  for the several days right before it got locked it was racking up about 7000 views per day.  that's how popular it was.  but that's the pt isn't it?  stop the popularity before it gets out of hand.

Yeah you proved you could stir up the worst trait in men: their ego (Bitcointalk "fix") addiction to circle jerking argument festivals where productivity falls into a black hole and no on the outside dares read lest they fall into the same pit.

Luckily I had the self-discipline to just tune out. Well I haven't watched TV for decades, don't drink alcohol, don't even eat carbohydrates, nor drink anything other than water. So I guess it must require a supernatural self-discipline to avoid your spell.

I feel pity for those here who continue wasting their time posting here. Don't these people have anything productive to do with their lives!

What a crying shame.

If the thread died with my post, that would be an amazing feat of humanity. I would be flabbergast. It won't.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: BldSwtTrs on August 20, 2015, 08:27:05 PM
and just what is off topic in a thread that's lasted 4 years and has 1.45M views and 31K posts?  for the several days right before it got locked it was racking up about 7000 views per day.  that's how popular it was.  but that's the pt isn't it?  stop the popularity before it gets out of hand.

Yeah you proved you could stir up the worst trait in men: their ego (Bitcointalk "fix") addiction to circle jerking argument festivals where productivity falls into a black hole and no on the outside dares read lest they fall into the same pit.

Luckily I had the self-discipline to just tune out. Well I haven't watched TV for decades, don't drink alcohol, don't even eat carbohydrates, nor drink anything other than water. So I guess it must require a supernatural self-discipline to avoid your spell.

I feel pity for those here who continue wasting their time posting here. Don't these people have anything productive to do with their lives!

What a crying shame.

If the thread died with my post, that would be an amazing feat of humanity. I would be flabbergast. It won't.
Dude, you have posted 2,300 messages in 4 months.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on August 20, 2015, 08:49:54 PM
Dude, you have posted 2,300 messages in 4 months.

And not most of them in that bitch slapping thread.

I post for example highly technical and informative discussion such as this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1152106.msg12134345#msg12134345

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1152106.msg12139754#msg12139754

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1139756.msg12191471#msg12191471

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1064374.msg12166760#msg12166760

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1049048.msg12187867#msg12187867

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156627.msg12182866#msg12182866

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg12180624#msg12180624

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1064374.msg12175568#msg12175568

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1133160.msg12181350#msg12181350

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156436.msg12180184#msg12180184

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1149850.msg12174027#msg12174027

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg12173116#msg12173116

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.msg12171519#msg12171519

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1049048.msg12164210#msg12164210

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg12163807#msg12163807

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg12162883#msg12162883

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.msg12162646#msg12162646

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1149850.msg12159136#msg12159136

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1149850.msg12157230#msg12157230

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1149850.msg12157155#msg12157155

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1049048.msg12156965#msg12156965

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1128521.msg12153302#msg12153302

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.msg12151569#msg12151569

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1049048.msg12149777#msg12149777

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1151565.msg12147891#msg12147891


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Wexlike on August 20, 2015, 11:06:09 PM
Anonymint, less writing and more coding. :P


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 20, 2015, 11:25:06 PM
Le Bron James got benched?

He's going to be out all season, something about a burn injury.   8)

http://i.imgur.com/zZhafzU.jpg


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 20, 2015, 11:30:57 PM
Le Bron James got benched?

He's going to be out all season, something about a burn injury.   8)

http://i.imgur.com/zZhafzU.jpg

His mentor laying out the final blow?

http://shitco.in/2015/08/19/the-bitcoin-xt-trojan/


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: rocks on August 21, 2015, 01:56:12 AM
Before cypherdoc locked his thread and tried to blame the mods,

Using censorship to silence any individual or groups of individuals is fundamentally one of the most horrible things that can be done to a human being.

You know that claim is nonsense, but join in the attack to silence others.

You are simply a horrible person, you think you are funny but you are not. Welcome to my permanent ignore list.

Gavinistas have been censoring people on reddit for months. Stop being an hypocrite. I'm not endorsing any censorship but this attempt from your side at claiming moral high ground is deceitful and unwarranted.

You too, you know this statement is nonsense. Gavin and others have done nothing of the sort. The only one supporting censorship is you.

Look in the mirror and know that you are a truly horrible person that supports violating people's rights and jokes and laughs about it. It is no joking matter. You can join tvbcof on my ignore list.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 21, 2015, 02:11:19 AM
http://i.imgflip.com/265s.jpg

censorship is fundamentally one of the most horrible things that can be done   :'(

You join in the attack to silence others   >:(

You are simply a horrible person   :'(


Sigh, here we go again...  ::)


http://rs1img.memecdn.com/first-world-problems_o_931604.jpg

Your already unseemly self-pity is becoming nauseating.  The sooner you Gavinistas are herded into /v/bitcoinxt to circlejerk yourselves the better.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: btccashacc on August 21, 2015, 02:14:05 AM
http://nicoomer.blog.kontan.co.id/files/2014/02/Nico-56.jpg


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Iman E. Vilsok on August 21, 2015, 03:49:53 AM

Hahaha.  Rocks=Rekt

...

Even if you did follow through with the childish and lulzy threat you probably have 6 other sock puppet accounts under maintenance that you can read it from.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 21, 2015, 09:01:17 AM
Before cypherdoc locked his thread and tried to blame the mods,

Using censorship to silence any individual or groups of individuals is fundamentally one of the most horrible things that can be done to a human being.

You know that claim is nonsense, but join in the attack to silence others.

You are simply a horrible person, you think you are funny but you are not. Welcome to my permanent ignore list.

Gavinistas have been censoring people on reddit for months. Stop being an hypocrite. I'm not endorsing any censorship but this attempt from your side at claiming moral high ground is deceitful and unwarranted.

You too, you know this statement is nonsense. Gavin and others have done nothing of the sort. The only one supporting censorship is you.

Look in the mirror and know that you are a truly horrible person that supports violating people's rights and jokes and laughs about it. It is no joking matter.

That's all they can do.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 21, 2015, 09:06:29 AM

that's funny.  the only force i see is the censorship.

Wow, you still show your face around here? ::)

He's gone dark for a while.  He's probably working on some title for a new mega-thread.  Gold seems to strike a cord and get such threads going.  How about: 'Gold.  I smell a Frapp.'



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Peter R on August 21, 2015, 03:08:23 PM

that's funny.  the only force i see is the censorship.

Wow, you still show your face around here? ::)

He's gone dark for a while.  He's probably working on some title for a new mega-thread.  Gold seems to strike a cord and get such threads going.  How about: 'Gold.  I smell a Frapp.'


My understanding is that threads that are broad in scope (in your words: "mega-threads") are no longer permitted on this forum. 

http://i.imgur.com/nhUjjPL.png

More on this here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1157185.msg12198527#msg12198527


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Torque on August 21, 2015, 04:02:58 PM
And yet new threads that may be both NARROW in scope and ON topic, but completely REDUNDANT, INNANE, and ZERO LASTING DISCUSSION VALUE because they essentially ask the SAME QUESTION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, are allowed be created daily over and over and over again for YEARS, and live on forever with no removal, culling or censorship whatsover.

Such threads have titles like :

Why the drop in price?

Why is the price rising?

Why the rebound?

New low?

New high?

New bubble!!

New crash!!

New dump!!

Where you you think the price will be in <2 minutes/1 hours/5 days/2 weeks/4 months/next year/in 5 years/ in 10 years/etc, etc.>?


And almost ever single one of these new threads is created by a throwaway troll account with 0 activity.  EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

The irony on this sub forum is sickening...


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sgbett on August 21, 2015, 04:21:33 PM
Also, my favourite...

"X Bans Bitcoin"


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 21, 2015, 08:07:25 PM
And yet new threads that may be both NARROW in scope and ON topic, but completely REDUNDANT, INNANE, and ZERO LASTING DISCUSSION VALUE because they essentially ask the SAME QUESTION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, are allowed be created daily over and over and over again for YEARS, and live on forever with no removal, culling or censorship whatsover.

Such threads have titles like :

Why the drop in price?

Why is the price rising?

Why the rebound?

New low?

New high?

New bubble!!

New crash!!

New dump!!

Where you you think the price will be in <2 minutes/1 hours/5 days/2 weeks/4 months/next year/in 5 years/ in 10 years/etc, etc.>?


And almost ever single one of these new threads is created by a throwaway troll account with 0 activity.  EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

The irony on this sub forum is sickening...

It is unbelievable but true. Idiocy prevails. This stalker thread is still unlocked.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: explorer on August 21, 2015, 08:25:19 PM
I miss the doc's mega thread.  it was a convenient catch-all without most of the wall observer micro-minds.  So where to lurk now  ???


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on August 21, 2015, 09:54:01 PM
And yet new threads that may be both NARROW in scope and ON topic, but completely REDUNDANT, INNANE, and ZERO LASTING DISCUSSION VALUE because they essentially ask the SAME QUESTION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, are allowed be created daily over and over and over again for YEARS, and live on forever with no removal, culling or censorship whatsover.

You are describing mega threads. BadBear is spot on with his logic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1157185.msg12199651#msg12199651) on why to ban them unless they are focused on specific topic, e.g. "Economic Totalitarianism" and "Economic Devastation". When grown men can't contain their addictions and it is dragging the diversity and rebirth of the forum down into a blackhole of addiction, then the appropriate action is to force a rebirth. If you guys try again to congregate into the same groupthink morass, then the same needs to be done again. Even CoinCube and I don't post every 5 seconds in the Economic Devastation thread. You were trying to subsume the forum into your own groupthink thread. You even stated that others who have threads with less frequent bumps were to be ignored and were of worthless value (you all actually said that to me!).

You guys want some feeling of exclusivity and power. You want to feel you've joined some tribe that is superior to the other tribes. But it ends up as a circle jerk addiction and bumped every 5 seconds thus sucking more people into the groupthink morass. It is a metastasizing inertia of groupthink addiction "bitcointalk fix". Whereas you see I even destroyed my AnonyMint username. I didn't sell it. I shut down that inertia and started anew. Life requires death. Life requires diversity. Addiction is death.

That is because you are not capable of being an individual.

You are still stuck in your "primitive, post-paleozoic, hunter-gatherer" evolutionary instinct which shuts down your "rational thought in the pre-frontal cortex".

http://unheresy.com/Information%20Is%20Alive.html#Existential_Fear

Quote from: myself
The fear emotion is inherited from the primitive, post-paleozoic, hunter-gatherer time period when mortal danger was omnipresent. Fear stimulates a fight-or-flight adrenaline spike in response to extreme stress. Adrenaline rushes are thrilling and addictive, especially when the threat is low-grade, not thoroughly exhausting, and thus repeatable because it only exists in the imagination. Adrenaline (plus cortisol) shuts down rational thought in the pre-frontal cortex. Production of the steriod cortisol spikes to redistribute more energy to the muscles and nerves, depleting energy from the immune system, digestion, and toxic waste processing necessary to maintain health.

It is sad that most humans are stuck in this predicament. Tribal politics is all they know.


and just what is off topic in a thread that's lasted 4 years and has 1.45M views and 31K posts?  for the several days right before it got locked it was racking up about 7000 views per day.  that's how popular it was.  but that's the pt isn't it?  stop the popularity before it gets out of hand.

Yeah you proved you could stir up the worst trait in men: their ego (Bitcointalk "fix") addiction to circle jerking argument festivals where productivity falls into a black hole and no on the outside dares read lest they fall into the same pit.

Luckily I had the self-discipline to just tune out. Well I haven't watched TV for decades, don't drink alcohol, don't even eat carbohydrates, nor drink anything other than water. So I guess it must require a supernatural self-discipline to avoid your spell.

I feel pity for those here who continue wasting their time posting here. Don't these people have anything productive to do with their lives!

What a crying shame.

If the thread died with my post, that would be an amazing feat of humanity. I would be flabbergast. It won't.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 21, 2015, 10:17:07 PM

It is unbelievable but true. Idiocy prevails. This stalker thread is still unlocked.

Ah, there you are.  I was going to ask you if there is any truth to this thing which covered Switzerland a little bit:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQIBpGu5I6E

If there is, I am extra glad that my ancestors got the fuck out of there.  I mean we've got plenty of similar problems over here on this side of the pond, but it does seem like you guys are leading the pack.

Bertrand Russel says that in 'scientific societies':

Quote
"Scientific societies are as yet in their infancy. . . . It is to be expected that advances in physiology and psychology will give governments much more control over individual mentality than they now have even in totalitarian countries. Fitche laid it down that education should aim at destroying free will, so that, after pupils have left school, they shall be incapable, throughout the rest of their lives, of thinking or acting otherwise than as their schoolmasters would have wished. . . . Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible. . . .”----Bertrand Russell,1953

Looks like "the sort of character" the leaderships in all Western countries (at least) want would be a society of borederline retarded sexually confused zombie sheep.  Exactly the kind of people who would become Heardresen worshiping XT drones.  Wouldn't you say so?



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 21, 2015, 11:07:27 PM

Gold holding up nicely.  Cypherdoc MIA like the sorry pussified little no-trust-having sissy that he is.  Frappuccino poisoning I suppose.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 21, 2015, 11:28:43 PM

Looks like "the sort of character" the leaderships in all Western countries (at least) want would be a society of borederline retarded sexually confused zombie sheep.  Exactly the kind of people who would become Heardresen worshiping XT drones.  Wouldn't you say so?


How many people you stalking?

Anyway, got an answer for this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1156489.msg12206369#msg12206369) yet?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hdbuck on August 22, 2015, 12:05:13 AM

It is unbelievable but true. Idiocy prevails. This stalker thread is still unlocked.

Ah, there you are.  I was going to ask you if there is any truth to this thing which covered Switzerland a little bit:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQIBpGu5I6E

If there is, I am extra glad that my ancestors got the fuck out of there.  I mean we've got plenty of similar problems over here on this side of the pond, but it does seem like you guys are leading the pack.

Bertrand Russel says that in 'scientific societies':

Quote
"Scientific societies are as yet in their infancy. . . . It is to be expected that advances in physiology and psychology will give governments much more control over individual mentality than they now have even in totalitarian countries. Fitche laid it down that education should aim at destroying free will, so that, after pupils have left school, they shall be incapable, throughout the rest of their lives, of thinking or acting otherwise than as their schoolmasters would have wished. . . . Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible. . . .”----Bertrand Russell,1953

Looks like "the sort of character" the leaderships in all Western countries (at least) want would be a society of borederline retarded sexually confused zombie sheep.  Exactly the kind of people who would become Heardresen worshiping XT drones.  Wouldn't you say so?



socialism + progressim (but more like digress actually) = kaboom.

gotta love the well accepted expression "human resources".




Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: zanzibar on August 22, 2015, 03:31:16 AM

Gold holding up nicely.  Cypherdoc MIA like the sorry pussified little no-trust-having sissy that he is.  Frappuccino poisoning I suppose.



Really!  So you're saying that a fixed title thread is wrong today, good lord how can it be.  ::)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 22, 2015, 04:59:00 AM
I miss the doc's mega thread.  it was a convenient catch-all without most of the wall observer micro-minds.  So where to lurk now  ???

just be thankful you have been unplugged from a matrix of FUD and disinformation ...


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 22, 2015, 05:44:57 AM
I miss the doc's mega thread.  it was a convenient catch-all without most of the wall observer micro-minds.  So where to lurk now  ???

just be thankful you have been unplugged from a matrix of FUD and disinformation ...

replaced with your own brand?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Cconvert2G36 on August 22, 2015, 05:54:39 AM
I miss the doc's mega thread.  it was a convenient catch-all without most of the wall observer micro-minds.  So where to lurk now  ???

just be thankful you have been unplugged from a matrix of FUD and disinformation ...

replaced with your own brand?

Can't you see the replacement has already surpassed that silly formerly existing thread in terms of intellectual engagement? So much more comprehensive and enlightening without all the FUD.

It's like "Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP." with forged pistons, an iron block, aggressive cams, fully computer controlled direct fuel injection, AND nitrous oxide injection! Take off your beer hat and look at it, would you just look at it?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 22, 2015, 07:34:05 AM

It is unbelievable but true. Idiocy prevails. This stalker thread is still unlocked.

Ah, there you are.  I was going to ask you if there is any truth to this thing which covered Switzerland a little bit:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQIBpGu5I6E

If there is, I am extra glad that my ancestors got the fuck out of there.  

Switzerland is the one and only Direct Democracy. The country can be glad seeing people with your mentality (stalking/hating direct voting/applauding censorship) leaving.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: TPTB_need_war on August 22, 2015, 05:16:56 PM
Switzerland is the one and only Direct Democracy.

Your delusions are shared by many people who will soon be culled for it.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hdbuck on August 22, 2015, 05:39:58 PM
I miss the doc's mega thread.  it was a convenient catch-all without most of the wall observer micro-minds.  So where to lurk now  ???

just be thankful you have been unplugged from a matrix of FUD and disinformation ...

i suggest tipping the mods too..


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 22, 2015, 07:19:17 PM

It is unbelievable but true. Idiocy prevails. This stalker thread is still unlocked.

Ah, there you are.  I was going to ask you if there is any truth to this thing which covered Switzerland a little bit:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQIBpGu5I6E

If there is, I am extra glad that my ancestors got the fuck out of there.  

Switzerland is the one and only Direct Democracy. The country can be glad seeing people with your mentality (stalking/hating direct voting/applauding censorship) leaving.


Your leaderships are clearly seeking to hybridize the herd with gene-stock from various far flung regions in addition to converting the native stock into people who are to sexually confused to reproduce on their own.  I can guess the types of policies the populous is going to prefer for the betterment of society through the 'direct democracy' that you are so proud of in the next generation.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: explorer on August 22, 2015, 11:14:40 PM
I miss the doc's mega thread.  it was a convenient catch-all without most of the wall observer micro-minds.  So where to lurk now  ???

just be thankful you have been unplugged from a matrix of FUD and disinformation ...

replaced with your own brand?

Can't you see the replacement has already surpassed that silly formerly existing thread in terms of intellectual engagement? So much more comprehensive and enlightening without all the FUD.

It's like "Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP." with forged pistons, an iron block, aggressive cams, fully computer controlled direct fuel injection, AND nitrous oxide injection! Take off your beer hat and look at it, would you just look at it?

Ahh. There we go.  Just like old times :D


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 22, 2015, 11:37:44 PM
I miss the doc's mega thread.  it was a convenient catch-all without most of the wall observer micro-minds.  So where to lurk now  ???

just be thankful you have been unplugged from a matrix of FUD and disinformation ...

replaced with your own brand?

Can't you see the replacement has already surpassed that silly formerly existing thread in terms of intellectual engagement? So much more comprehensive and enlightening without all the FUD.

It's like "Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP." with forged pistons, an iron block, aggressive cams, fully computer controlled direct fuel injection, AND nitrous oxide injection! Take off your beer hat and look at it, would you just look at it?

I wouldn't look at anything that still has breaks...   ;)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 22, 2015, 11:40:15 PM

It is unbelievable but true. Idiocy prevails. This stalker thread is still unlocked.

Ah, there you are.  I was going to ask you if there is any truth to this thing which covered Switzerland a little bit:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQIBpGu5I6E

If there is, I am extra glad that my ancestors got the fuck out of there.  

Switzerland is the one and only Direct Democracy. The country can be glad seeing people with your mentality (stalking/hating direct voting/applauding censorship) leaving.


Your leaderships are clearly seeking to hybridize the herd with gene-stock from various far flung regions in addition to converting the native stock into people who are to sexually confused to reproduce on their own.  I can guess the types of policies the populous is going to prefer for the betterment of society through the 'direct democracy' that you are so proud of in the next generation.


You were given a chance to explain where these new sidechain altcoins are going to derive their value.






(still waiting)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 23, 2015, 12:02:39 AM

You were given a chance to explain where these new sidechain altcoins are going to derive their value.

(still waiting)

Ya, Ya.  I'm getting to it.  In the mean time, you should brush up on some of the work the Blockstream guys are doing and why their motto is 'trust everyone'.  They are focused on crypto-based solutions which would allow one to balance risk.  So, instead of giving the bank all of your money (or BTC) which technically and legally becomes their property to do with as they please, there are things like time-locks.  If you take or fail to take certain actions on a certain schedule, the value of your deposit can revert back to your control.  These crypto 'primitives' allow a much more robust cyrpto-currency ecosystem and cut the (unreliable and expensive) state sponsored legal system out of the loop leaning instead on pure mathematics which is much more reliable.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 23, 2015, 12:09:55 AM

You were given a chance to explain where these new sidechain altcoins are going to derive their value.

(still waiting)

Ya, Ya.  I'm getting to it.  In the mean time, you should brush up on some of the work the Blockstream guys are doing and why their motto is 'trust everyone'.  They are focused on crypto-based solutions which would allow one to balance risk.  So, instead of giving the bank all of your money (or BTC) which technically and legally becomes their property to do with as they please, there are things like time-locks.  If you take or fail to take certain actions on a certain schedule, the value of your deposit can revert back to your control.  These crypto 'primitives' allow a much more robust cyrpto-currency ecosystem and cut the (unreliable and expensive) state sponsored legal system out of the loop leaning instead on pure mathematics which is much more reliable.


Stop fudging the issue.

 I'm well aware of what blockstream does.  And I also know what it needs before a bank would have any interest in using it. I just want that penny to drop with you, or at least hear your attempt to explain it.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 23, 2015, 12:20:16 AM

You were given a chance to explain where these new sidechain altcoins are going to derive their value.

(still waiting)

Ya, Ya.  I'm getting to it.  In the mean time, you should brush up on some of the work the Blockstream guys are doing and why their motto is 'trust everyone'.  They are focused on crypto-based solutions which would allow one to balance risk.  So, instead of giving the bank all of your money (or BTC) which technically and legally becomes their property to do with as they please, there are things like time-locks.  If you take or fail to take certain actions on a certain schedule, the value of your deposit can revert back to your control.  These crypto 'primitives' allow a much more robust cyrpto-currency ecosystem and cut the (unreliable and expensive) state sponsored legal system out of the loop leaning instead on pure mathematics which is much more reliable.


Stop fudging the issue.

 I'm well aware of what blockstream does.  And I also know what it needs before a bank would have any interest in using it. I just want that penny to drop with you, or at least hear your attempt to explain it.


I've never run across an XT shill who is even dimly aware of 'what Blockstream does', or if I are, they have made no attempts to demonstrate this knowledge.  In fact relatively few of said shills seem to have even a modest grasp on Bitcoin itself.  You are no exception.

Nobody I have any respect for wants banks in the common sense of the word to have anything to do with crypto-currencies.  They are obsolete with a properly functioning crypto like Bitcoin.

The primitives which Blockstream are working on would allow a lot more flexibility in distributing value to sidecoins and managing risk in doing so.  Also, by providing robust reference implementations and being available to audit (for a fee I suspect) they provide a very valuable service to end-users (like me) who are trying to judge these risks.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 23, 2015, 12:43:37 AM

You were given a chance to explain where these new sidechain altcoins are going to derive their value.

(still waiting)

Ya, Ya.  I'm getting to it.  In the mean time, you should brush up on some of the work the Blockstream guys are doing and why their motto is 'trust everyone'.  They are focused on crypto-based solutions which would allow one to balance risk.  So, instead of giving the bank all of your money (or BTC) which technically and legally becomes their property to do with as they please, there are things like time-locks.  If you take or fail to take certain actions on a certain schedule, the value of your deposit can revert back to your control.  These crypto 'primitives' allow a much more robust cyrpto-currency ecosystem and cut the (unreliable and expensive) state sponsored legal system out of the loop leaning instead on pure mathematics which is much more reliable.


Stop fudging the issue.

 I'm well aware of what blockstream does.  And I also know what it needs before a bank would have any interest in using it. I just want that penny to drop with you, or at least hear your attempt to explain it.


I've never run across an XT shill who is even dimly aware of 'what Blockstream does', or if I are, they have made no attempts to demonstrate this knowledge.  In fact relatively few of said shills seem to have even a modest grasp on Bitcoin itself.  You are no exception.

Nobody I have any respect for wants banks in the common sense of the word to have anything to do with crypto-currencies.  They are obsolete with a properly functioning crypto like Bitcoin.

The primitives which Blockstream are working on would allow a lot more flexibility in distributing value to sidecoins and managing risk in doing so.  Also, by providing robust reference implementations and being available to audit (for a fee I suspect) they provide a very valuable service to end-users (like me) who are trying to judge these risks.


Sidestep. Skip. Dodge.  You move better than Mohammed Ali.

They are only primitives because they haven't got a working solution. They grabbed on to LN like a man in the bottom of a well grabs onto a ladder lowered down to him. I'd say they are under some pressure, no?

Anyway, you still havent explained how valuable transactions will be catered for in terms of liquidity and credit risk. Lets say its not a bank, lets say instead its Daddy Warbucks from Annie!



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hdbuck on August 23, 2015, 01:30:49 AM
satoshifanclub you should be ashamed baring satoshi's name. you no fan his his.

you are a discusting little piece of shilling shit.

you should not even have 1 satoshi. not that i suspect you of having much more.

ignored.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 23, 2015, 04:07:48 AM
...
The primitives which Blockstream are working on would allow a lot more flexibility in distributing value to sidecoins and managing risk in doing so.  Also, by providing robust reference implementations and being available to audit (for a fee I suspect) they provide a very valuable service to end-users (like me) who are trying to judge these risks.


Sidestep. Skip. Dodge.  You move better than Mohammed Ali.

They are only primitives because they haven't got a working solution. They grabbed on to LN like a man in the bottom of a well grabs onto a ladder lowered down to him. I'd say they are under some pressure, no?

I forget that not everyone is familiar with systems development.  A 'primitive' is a generic and basic function though they are often fairly cutting edge.  For a system which is more than trivial, a competent developer will start out by building 'primitives' (unless someone else has already done so which is common.)  Upon these one can build a system to solve specific problems and also build other systems to solve other problems.


Anyway, you still havent explained how valuable transactions will be catered for in terms of liquidity and credit risk. Lets say its not a bank, lets say instead its Daddy Warbucks from Annie!

What's there to explain?  A sidecoin is just a Bitcoin due to the 2-way peg.  The 'liquidity' is just what Bitcoin people are willing to peg to a particular sidechain.   There is no 'credit' so there is no 'credit risk'.  There are plenty of other risks associated with fraud, accidents, mis-management, etc.  This is why an entity (e.g., Blockstream) consisting of proven, trusted, and skilled people is a valuable thing.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 23, 2015, 08:04:07 AM

It is unbelievable but true. Idiocy prevails. This stalker thread is still unlocked.

Ah, there you are.  I was going to ask you if there is any truth to this thing which covered Switzerland a little bit:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQIBpGu5I6E

If there is, I am extra glad that my ancestors got the fuck out of there.  

Switzerland is the one and only Direct Democracy. The country can be glad seeing people with your mentality (stalking/hating direct voting/applauding censorship) leaving.


Your leaderships are clearly seeking to hybridize the herd with gene-stock from various far flung regions in addition to converting the native stock into people who are to sexually confused to reproduce on their own.  I can guess the types of policies the populous is going to prefer for the betterment of society through the 'direct democracy' that you are so proud of in the next generation.


Conspiracy paranoia. That you and your wannabe elitist soulmates hate direct voting is obvious.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 23, 2015, 08:10:40 AM
satoshifanclub you should be ashamed baring satoshi's name. you no fan his his.

you are a discusting little piece of shilling shit.

you should not even have 1 satoshi. not that i suspect you of having much more.

ignored.

q.e.d.
That's exactly the linguistics of the sidecoiners. Warriors, censors, destroyers.
How can they ever win the majority of the bitcoiners that way? Great job.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 23, 2015, 10:50:30 AM

I forget that not everyone is familiar with systems development.  A 'primitive' is a generic and basic function though they are often fairly cutting edge.  For a system which is more than trivial, a competent developer will start out by building 'primitives' (unless someone else has already done so which is common.)  Upon these one can build a system to solve specific problems and also build other systems to solve other problems.

Stop talking gobbledygook.


What's there to explain?  A sidecoin is just a Bitcoin due to the 2-way peg.  The 'liquidity' is just what Bitcoin people are willing to peg to a particular sidechain.   There is no 'credit' so there is no 'credit risk'.  There are plenty of other risks associated with fraud, accidents, mis-management, etc.  This is why an entity (e.g., Blockstream) consisting of proven, trusted, and skilled people is a valuable thing.



"A sidecoin is just a Bitcoin due to the 2-way peg"?  But you talked earlier about ratios and internal circulation decisions.  If its just a bitcoin, why inflate it?

[in bold] Thats what I was looking for. So you are stating that the $100m being transferred on the side chain MUST be backed with an equivilent $100m worth of bitcoin. And thats where this falls down. You are hinting at turning bitcoin into a liquidity market when it was conceived as a peer-to-peer payment system.

For any sidechain business to compete in the settlement market, they would have to convince enough bitcoiners to handover their private keys to them. With its stellar track record of fraud and scamming, how many will? Plus, thousands of competing sidechains will exist - as I said before, liquidity will be a serious hurdle.

But its a moot point:  This is largely a daydream in the context of large interbank settlement networks. They will only on-board when they are offered a side chain solution which is essentially a copper wire solution, with the immutability of Bitcoin. A solution which effectively unhooks the requirement of holding a bitcoin to leverage the usefulness of the blockchain.  Thats what the real value proposition of Blockstream will be.




Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 23, 2015, 11:31:31 AM
satoshifanclub you should be ashamed baring satoshi's name. you no fan his his.

you are a discusting little piece of shilling shit.

you should not even have 1 satoshi. not that i suspect you of having much more.

ignored.

he is really disgusting ... I have no idea what he's saying because he is on the  ignore list of bear shills since forever. I think many XT trolls maybe a lot of bear shills who think they can create further uncertainty and discord by pushing XT incessantly even though they have no idea how it works, except that it is divisive and good for bear profiteering FUD.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 23, 2015, 11:32:15 AM
satoshifanclub you should be ashamed baring satoshi's name. you no fan his his.

you are a discusting little piece of shilling shit.

you should not even have 1 satoshi. not that i suspect you of having much more.

ignored.

Goodbye. The quality of your character and intellect always shone clearly through your posts.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 23, 2015, 04:04:46 PM

he is really disgusting ...

Quote from: Marshall Mathers
Everybody only wants to discuss me
So this must mean I'm disgusting



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 23, 2015, 05:39:42 PM

Stop talking gobbledygook.


What's there to explain?  A sidecoin is just a Bitcoin due to the 2-way peg.  The 'liquidity' is just what Bitcoin people are willing to peg to a particular sidechain.   There is no 'credit' so there is no 'credit risk'.  There are plenty of other risks associated with fraud, accidents, mis-management, etc.  This is why an entity (e.g., Blockstream) consisting of proven, trusted, and skilled people is a valuable thing.

"A sidecoin is just a Bitcoin due to the 2-way peg"?  But you talked earlier about ratios and internal circulation decisions.  If its just a bitcoin, why inflate it?

Unfortunately a discussion about this would be, to you, unintelligible 'gobbledygook'.  It is an interesting topic however, and one I'm happy to exchange ideas upon with anyone who is coherent in such topics.
 

[in bold] Thats what I was looking for. So you are stating that the $100m being transferred on the side chain MUST be backed with an equivilent $100m worth of bitcoin. And thats where this falls down. You are hinting at turning bitcoin into a liquidity market when it was conceived as a peer-to-peer payment system.

Introducing the US Dollar into things is probably a deliberate attempt to confuse things, but also may be just an expression on your part of disjoint thinking.  The USD has nothing to do with any of this stuff and only confuses things.

The *must* part is completely dependent on what the user demands.  I will probably stick with 'simple' sidechains which adhere to a static peg initially.  Later on I may branch out into sidechains who's management is more sophisticated, but only after they've appropriately demonstrated certain technical internals to my level of satisfaction.

Also, don't forget that there is no reason why people who have a need to perform large value transactions are not perfectly able to use Bitcoin natively.  I would expect them to do so indefinitely.  Unless, of course, someone like Hearn comes along and manages to ruin Bitcoin for such a use.  Of course if that happened Bitcoin would also be useless as a backing store (aka, 'reserve currency') for a system of subordinate chains such as what Blockstream is spearheading with their sidechains efforts.  In that case they would just choose something else.


For any sidechain business to compete in the settlement market, they would have to convince enough bitcoiners to handover their private keys to them. With its stellar track record of fraud and scamming, how many will? Plus, thousands of competing sidechains will exist - as I said before, liquidity will be a serious hurdle.

You clearly have not done your homework on why Blockstream's motto is 'trust everyone.'  The only sure-fire way to trust someone is to know that they don't have any opportunity to screw you.  The mainstream financial sector relies on state sponsored judicial systems to achieve this trust, and the trust is starting to crack and peel as this sector takes a bigger and bigger role in formulating the government through lobbying.  Crypto uses mathematics to establish this trust, and Blockstream uses crypto.  (Apologize in advance for the 'gobbledegook' that you see here.)


But its a moot point:  This is largely a daydream in the context of large interbank settlement networks. They will only on-board when they are offered a side chain solution which is essentially a copper wire solution, with the immutability of Bitcoin. A solution which effectively unhooks the requirement of holding a bitcoin to leverage the usefulness of the blockchain.  Thats what the real value proposition of Blockstream will be.

The real value of the work Blockstream is undertaking is that it would allow Bitcoin to scale to serve every individual in the world (even if by proxy) while remaining lite and tight and thus being able to defend against dedicated attack by those who are currently monopolizing and exploiting our established mainstream set financial mechanisms.  To me, there is a 100% chance that such an attack will happen and that it will be brutal if crypto gets even a little bit of a toe-hold to muscle in on their action.  We may or may not be on the cusp of doing so now.  Probably we are, and probably XT is an expression of these attacks.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 23, 2015, 09:02:47 PM

Stop talking gobbledygook.


What's there to explain?  A sidecoin is just a Bitcoin due to the 2-way peg.  The 'liquidity' is just what Bitcoin people are willing to peg to a particular sidechain.   There is no 'credit' so there is no 'credit risk'.  There are plenty of other risks associated with fraud, accidents, mis-management, etc. This is why an entity (e.g., Blockstream) consisting of proven, trusted, and skilled people is a valuable thing.

"A sidecoin is just a Bitcoin due to the 2-way peg"?  But you talked earlier about ratios and internal circulation decisions.  If its just a bitcoin, why inflate it?

Unfortunately a discussion about this would be, to you, unintelligible 'gobbledygook'.  It is an interesting topic however, and one I'm happy to exchange ideas upon with anyone who is coherent in such topics.



You see, this is an example - "coherent in such topics" You may adopt a belief that is coherent, or you may be proficient in a topic, but Ive never seen them combined.
I find it makes more sense to more people to just used simple terms and language.

Quote from: tvbcof



[in bold] Thats what I was looking for. So you are stating that the $100m being transferred on the side chain MUST be backed with an equivilent $100m worth of bitcoin. And thats where this falls down. You are hinting at turning bitcoin into a liquidity market when it was conceived as a peer-to-peer payment system.

Introducing the US Dollar into things is probably a deliberate attempt to confuse things, but also may be just an expression on your part of disjoint thinking.  The USD has nothing to do with any of this stuff and only confuses things.

Confusing to whom?  I'm just being realistic. In the world of finance, bitcoin is a minnow, its growing ( but of course you will say not enough to justify simply making blocks bigger) but it is still small. The quantum leap suggested by blockstream includes handling payments in other currencies such as the dolllar.

Quote from: tvbcof

The *must* part is completely dependent on what the user demands.  I will probably stick with 'simple' sidechains which adhere to a static peg initially.  Later on I may branch out into sidechains who's management is more sophisticated, but only after they've appropriately demonstrated certain technical internals to my level of satisfaction.

You havent answered anything there - just what you will do.

Quote from: tvbcof
Also, don't forget that there is no reason why people who have a need to perform large value transactions are not perfectly able to use Bitcoin natively.  I would expect them to do so indefinitely.  Unless, of course, someone like Hearn comes along and manages to ruin Bitcoin for such a use.  Of course if that happened Bitcoin would also be useless as a backing store (aka, 'reserve currency') for a system of subordinate chains such as what Blockstream is spearheading with their sidechains efforts.  In that case they would just choose something else.

Again, nothing new here.  If you are big player in bitcoin, then you continue as before. But that is not who blockstrem are targeting. They are targeting current players in the traditional financial market.  

Quote from: tvbcof

For any sidechain business to compete in the settlement market, they would have to convince enough bitcoiners to handover their private keys to them. With its stellar track record of fraud and scamming, how many will? Plus, thousands of competing sidechains will exist - as I said before, liquidity will be a serious hurdle.

You clearly have not done your homework on why Blockstream's motto is 'trust everyone.'  The only sure-fire way to trust someone is to know that they don't have any opportunity to screw you.  The mainstream financial sector relies on state sponsored judicial systems to achieve this trust, and the trust is starting to crack and peel as this sector takes a bigger and bigger role in formulating the government through lobbying.  Crypto uses mathematics to establish this trust, and Blockstream uses crypto.  (Apologize in advance for the 'gobbledegook' that you see here.)

You quote my phrase "handover their private keys to them", but then you go off on a meandering narrative about " state sponsored judicial systems" and finance. Then you tell me "Crypto uses mathematics"?  Blockstream because... trust.  What about the bitcoins the sidechains are being pegged to? How is that achieved? How do you secure them without having access to the private keys?

Quote from: tvbcof


But its a moot point:  This is largely a daydream in the context of large interbank settlement networks. They will only on-board when they are offered a side chain solution which is essentially a copper wire solution, with the immutability of Bitcoin. A solution which effectively unhooks the requirement of holding a bitcoin to leverage the usefulness of the blockchain.  Thats what the real value proposition of Blockstream will be.

The real value of the work Blockstream is undertaking is that it would allow Bitcoin to scale to serve every individual in the world (even if by proxy) while remaining lite and tight and thus being able to defend against dedicated attack by those who are currently monopolizing and exploiting our established mainstream set financial mechanisms.  To me, there is a 100% chance that such an attack will happen and that it will be brutal if crypto gets even a little bit of a toe-hold to muscle in on their action.  We may or may not be on the cusp of doing so now.  Probably we are, and probably XT is an expression of these attacks.


XT is not an attack on Bitcoin. It is simply a different, more pragmatic view of how bitcoin can evolve over time. It seems to me that the Blockstream narrative effectively writes off bitcoin as a payment system as unfit for purpose. Everything blockstream espouses is predicated on a fundamental change to what bitcoin is and how it will work in the future. The paradox in your statement above is that you believe bitcoin will be the largest payment system in the world, but you cant even allow it to expand to serve its small but growing current userbase.

I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels. What they fail to mention is that Visanet can get this throughput because they do not make payments. All they do is provide the checking and reporting mechanisms to support the payments. Chase Manhattan in NY and London do all the settlements ( the actual payments to accounts).  Bitcoin, on the other hand, actually executes the payment. The  danger here is that they will make bitcoin just another reporting system.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hdbuck on August 23, 2015, 10:02:09 PM
...

[in bold] Thats what I was looking for. So you are stating that the $100m being transferred on the side chain MUST be backed with an equivilent $100m worth of bitcoin. And thats where this falls down. You are hinting at turning bitcoin into a liquidity market when it was conceived as a peer-to-peer payment system.

Introducing the US Dollar into things is probably a deliberate attempt to confuse things, but also may be just an expression on your part of disjoint thinking.  The USD has nothing to do with any of this stuff and only confuses things.



funny they bring USD up tho. it indeed has everything to do regarding this subject.

this is yet another attempt to 'QE' bitcoin, its blocksize, its transaction capacity, even its cap down the road because of instigating a precedent upon its governance and since that's always been the mainstream financial solution to control everything.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 23, 2015, 10:05:37 PM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels. What they fail to mention is that Visanet can get this throughput because they do not make payments. All they do is provide the checking and reporting mechanisms to support the payments. Chase Manhattan in NY and London do all the settlements ( the actual payments to accounts).  Bitcoin, on the other hand, actually executes the payment. The  danger here is that they will make bitcoin just another reporting system.

Pragmatic? You mean foolish and totally absent of any economic understanding.

https://np.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hyb1l/it_seems_like_theres_a_nonetrivial_number_of/cuc4hj6


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 23, 2015, 10:07:27 PM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 :D

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 23, 2015, 10:59:33 PM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels. What they fail to mention is that Visanet can get this throughput because they do not make payments. All they do is provide the checking and reporting mechanisms to support the payments. Chase Manhattan in NY and London do all the settlements ( the actual payments to accounts).  Bitcoin, on the other hand, actually executes the payment. The  danger here is that they will make bitcoin just another reporting system.

Pragmatic? You mean foolish and totally absent of any economic understanding.

https://np.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hyb1l/it_seems_like_theres_a_nonetrivial_number_of/cuc4hj6

Good article, but the first rebuttal is better :

Quote
Excellent post with much needed enlightenment around the crucial aspect which tends to be forgotten within the blocksize debate, namely, how should the "base money" of the internet be structured?
In this discussion, I would like to raise a few clarifying points:
1) Distributed asset ledgers are the first protocol instance of where the stakeholder to a ledger, and not the ledger operator, has control over the ledger assets (the importance of this cannot be overstated - it is the most crucial aspect of Satoshis discovery). Up until now, technological developments within finance have been limited to digitizing the record of account held with financial institutions. Banks have so far been shielded from disruption as the basic premise, that they are the account operator, has never before been under question.
2) As such, it is the first time that access to "base money", without counterparty risks, is available to everyone - as you mentioned, central banks only allow commercial banks to hold accounts in "base money", everyone else is left holding bank issued credit. Any limitation of this availability will ensure that we are back to the model whereby we need to trust a third party with custody of our assets.
3) Nearly every clearing model is based upon a net deferred settlement cycle, i.e. settlement does not happen until certain time-periods every day when all obligations to deliver are conducted through Delivery vs Payment (DvP) or Payment vs Payment (PvP). This is normal, and will work the same way even with the internet's "base money". When settlement is conducted, it is crucial that the multiple accounts can have a simultaneous discharge of obligations, i.e. the blocksize needs to be large enough to allow for the net settlement between the multitude of accounts/addresses to be included in one block/transaction which may be significantly larger than 1mb, even if the blockchain purely functions as a large value payments system.
In closing, I would like to raise a few points:
I understand that there is a strong desire to maintain the blockchain as trustless and distributed, but is the 1mb blocksize, whereby everyone is forced onto "commercial bank ledgers" - a.k.a. federated chains with one, or several, trusted third party, the way to go?
If we maintain the 1mb limit, will the "commercial banks" or sidechains be able to conduct settlement on a net deferred basis?
It seems to me a low blocksize will guarantee that bitcoin not only has centralized mining, but will also force people onto centrally controlled sidechains that may or may not be operated by a central account operator who can decide when you have access to your assets, under what circumstance you have access to your assets and how you will be able to access them.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 23, 2015, 11:02:40 PM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 :D

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.

So sidechains are not about facilitating a greater number of transactions? Do explain. You sound like you are getting frustrated.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 23, 2015, 11:11:07 PM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 :D

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.

So sidechains are not about facilitating a greater number of transactions? Do explain. You sound like you are getting frustrated.

No, for the 1000th million times, sidechains are not about scaling Bitcoin.

They're about augmenting its features and capabilities.

Quote
Never have I seen sidechains be proposed as an actual solution to scaling Bitcoin so I'm not certain how that holds true.

If my understanding is correct the proofs used in their concept to move coins between chains are in fact competing with transactions for space in blocks so it makes absolutely no sense to propose they profit from undue advantage by restricting block growth.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg12170746#msg12170746


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 23, 2015, 11:12:38 PM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 :D

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.

So sidechains are not about facilitating a greater number of transactions? Do explain. You sound like you are getting frustrated.

I have not performed a bitcoin transaction in over a year.  It is not an appropriate solution for any transaction I've wanted to perform over that time period.  I pay a .01 BTC transaction fee when I do because it was about right for the service I was getting.

I very much look forward to being able to do minor transactions in such a way that will not compromise the core Bitcoin solution.  As soon as a micro-tipping sidechain comes out, I will peg some BTC to it and transact frequently.  In this way, one on-chain transaction will represent thousands of real-life transactions.  As a side benefit, one will not be able to analyze my behavior just by reading the Bitcoin blockchain.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 23, 2015, 11:48:41 PM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 :D

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.

So sidechains are not about facilitating a greater number of transactions? Do explain. You sound like you are getting frustrated.

No, for the 1000th million times, sidechains are not about scaling Bitcoin.

They're about augmenting its features and capabilities.

Quote
Never have I seen sidechains be proposed as an actual solution to scaling Bitcoin so I'm not certain how that holds true.

If my understanding is correct the proofs used in their concept to move coins between chains are in fact competing with transactions for space in blocks so it makes absolutely no sense to propose they profit from undue advantage by restricting block growth.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg12170746#msg12170746


Austin Hill, chief instigator at Blockstream, respectfully disagrees with you.....

Quote
But, there are several problems with bitcoin, too, says Hill, which is why exchanges like Coinbase generally run their own transactions outside the block chain.

Hill told CoinDesk: "There is a practical reason why some of those things can't operate on the block chain, and that's because at peak, they're doing more transactions than bitcoin can support right now."

Instead, Back and Hill want to 'shard' the block chain, creating another block chain, which has a two-way relationship with bitcoin's own.

This will have two major benefits, Hill suggests: functionality, and scalability.

Firstly, "We could have US and Canadian dollars, smart derivatives, option shares, and future contracts. A whole series of programmable trust instruments. A lot of people had talked about these things, and how the block chain could be adapted for this, but I hadn't seen anyone lay out how it would come to pass."

And secondly: "By sharding, you can have orders of magnitude faster transaction processing and you can start to scale bitcoin."

source (http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-core-developers-bitcoin-side-chains/)

Seriously, did you just quote your own opinion  to back up your statement??? 


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 24, 2015, 12:08:42 AM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 :D

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.

So sidechains are not about facilitating a greater number of transactions? Do explain. You sound like you are getting frustrated.

I have not performed a bitcoin transaction in over a year.  It is not an appropriate solution for any transaction I've wanted to perform over that time period.  I pay a .01 BTC transaction fee when I do because it was about right for the service I was getting.

I very much look forward to being able to do minor transactions in such a way that will not compromise the core Bitcoin solution.  As soon as a micro-tipping sidechain comes out, I will peg some BTC to it and transact frequently.  In this way, one on-chain transaction will represent thousands of real-life transactions.  As a side benefit, one will not be able to analyze my behavior just by reading the Bitcoin blockchain.


I use it weekly to pay php freelancers I hire in India. I also have 3 clients whom I invoice in bitcoin.  Works fine for me, as I'm sure it does for others.

Your tipping example means that I cannot tip in Bitcoin anymore, I can only tip in the shitcoin that supports the sidechain its run on.

But anyway, get back to my points above.  How do investors handle the coins to be pegged? I thought that only the holder of the private key has any claim on a bitcoin. They will need to hand them over, no?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 24, 2015, 12:14:39 AM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 :D

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.

So sidechains are not about facilitating a greater number of transactions? Do explain. You sound like you are getting frustrated.

No, for the 1000th million times, sidechains are not about scaling Bitcoin.

They're about augmenting its features and capabilities.

Quote
Never have I seen sidechains be proposed as an actual solution to scaling Bitcoin so I'm not certain how that holds true.

If my understanding is correct the proofs used in their concept to move coins between chains are in fact competing with transactions for space in blocks so it makes absolutely no sense to propose they profit from undue advantage by restricting block growth.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg12170746#msg12170746


Austin Hill, chief instigator at Blockstream, respectfully disagrees with you.....

Quote
But, there are several problems with bitcoin, too, says Hill, which is why exchanges like Coinbase generally run their own transactions outside the block chain.

Hill told CoinDesk: "There is a practical reason why some of those things can't operate on the block chain, and that's because at peak, they're doing more transactions than bitcoin can support right now."

Instead, Back and Hill want to 'shard' the block chain, creating another block chain, which has a two-way relationship with bitcoin's own.

This will have two major benefits, Hill suggests: functionality, and scalability.

Firstly, "We could have US and Canadian dollars, smart derivatives, option shares, and future contracts. A whole series of programmable trust instruments. A lot of people had talked about these things, and how the block chain could be adapted for this, but I hadn't seen anyone lay out how it would come to pass."

And secondly: "By sharding, you can have orders of magnitude faster transaction processing and you can start to scale bitcoin."

source (http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-core-developers-bitcoin-side-chains/)

Seriously, did you just quote your own opinion  to back up your statement??? 

I'm increasingly convinced you are another one of Lambchamp sock puppet account.

I'm therefore not going to waste my time looking for the dozens of reference by Blockstream developers essentially saying that sidechains can hardly scale the transaction processing power of Bitcoin under current block size.

I quoted myself because the content remains valid: SPV Proofs are competing with transactions for space in blocks. Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 24, 2015, 12:17:16 AM

I use it weekly to pay php freelancers I hire in India. I also have 3 clients whom I invoice in bitcoin.  Works fine for me, as I'm sure it does for others.

I use Bitcoin for real transactions with some value behind them.  Sounds like a PissAntCoin sidechain would be right up your alley.


But anyway, get back to my points above.  How do investors handle the coins to be pegged? I thought that only the holder of the private key has any claim on a bitcoin. They will need to hand them over, no?

Again, you really need to brush up on some of the 'elements' technology that the Blockstream guys are working on.  When you hear terms such as 'timelocks' and multi-party signatures perhaps they will start to mean more to you.  Probably not though...you may simply not have what it takes to conceptualize some of the non-trivial use methods that others have moved on to.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 24, 2015, 12:22:04 AM
I find it strange that blockstream hold up Visa as the holy grail in terms of transaction throughput and the need for Bitcoin to adopt sidechains so they can reach these levels.

 :D

So many lines or worthless FUD and yet still not one fucking clue about what sidechains are about.

So sidechains are not about facilitating a greater number of transactions? Do explain. You sound like you are getting frustrated.

I have not performed a bitcoin transaction in over a year.  It is not an appropriate solution for any transaction I've wanted to perform over that time period.  I pay a .01 BTC transaction fee when I do because it was about right for the service I was getting.

I very much look forward to being able to do minor transactions in such a way that will not compromise the core Bitcoin solution.  As soon as a micro-tipping sidechain comes out, I will peg some BTC to it and transact frequently.  In this way, one on-chain transaction will represent thousands of real-life transactions.  As a side benefit, one will not be able to analyze my behavior just by reading the Bitcoin blockchain.


I use it weekly to pay php freelancers I hire in India. I also have 3 clients whom I invoice in bitcoin.  Works fine for me, as I'm sure it does for others.

Your tipping example means that I cannot tip in Bitcoin anymore, I can only tip in the shitcoin that supports the sidechain its run on.

But anyway, get back to my points above.  How do investors handle the coins to be pegged? I thought that only the holder of the private key has any claim on a bitcoin. They will need to hand them over, no?

No.

Think of sidechains as a multi-signature. I can assign one Bitcoin to a sidechain by sending it to a special output which will essentially "lock" the bitcoin on the mainchain and use proof of this "deposit" to issue an equivalent share (token) on the sidechain.

My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow until I issue a different transaction from the sidechain to another special output. Once enough work is piled on top of the proof that I sent back the coins to the mainchain (my transaction) then I can use this proof to unlock the special output holding my original bitcoin.  


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 24, 2015, 12:28:12 AM

I use it weekly to pay php freelancers I hire in India. I also have 3 clients whom I invoice in bitcoin.  Works fine for me, as I'm sure it does for others.

I use Bitcoin for real transactions with some value behind them.  Sounds like a PissAntCoin sidechain would be right up your alley.


But anyway, get back to my points above.  How do investors handle the coins to be pegged? I thought that only the holder of the private key has any claim on a bitcoin. They will need to hand them over, no?

Again, you really need to brush up on some of the 'elements' technology that the Blockstream guys are working on.  When you hear terms such as 'timelocks' and multi-party signatures perhaps they will start to mean more to you.  Probably not though...you may simply not have what it takes to conceptualize some of the non-trivial use methods that others have moved on to.



Annnndddd.... you still haven't answered the question. If you wanna play the sidechain game, hand over your bitcoins.  Simple.

All these things are features that either do not work or do not exist now - and implementing them will further increase the size of a transaction. Looks like you are curing blockchain bloat with.... blockchain bloat.  



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 24, 2015, 12:35:09 AM

I use it weekly to pay php freelancers I hire in India. I also have 3 clients whom I invoice in bitcoin.  Works fine for me, as I'm sure it does for others.

I use Bitcoin for real transactions with some value behind them.  Sounds like a PissAntCoin sidechain would be right up your alley.


But anyway, get back to my points above.  How do investors handle the coins to be pegged? I thought that only the holder of the private key has any claim on a bitcoin. They will need to hand them over, no?

Again, you really need to brush up on some of the 'elements' technology that the Blockstream guys are working on.  When you hear terms such as 'timelocks' and multi-party signatures perhaps they will start to mean more to you.  Probably not though...you may simply not have what it takes to conceptualize some of the non-trivial use methods that others have moved on to.



Annnndddd.... you still haven't answered the question. If you wanna play the sidechain game, hand over your bitcoins.  Simple.

All these things are features that either do not work or do not exist now - and implementing them will further increase the size of a transaction. Looks like you are curing blockchain bloat with.... blockchain bloat.  

Read my post above. Then read the sidechains white paper. Then come back here when you actually understand how this stuff works


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 24, 2015, 12:36:23 AM
Quote
My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow

Thought as much. You are handing over your bitcoin to a 3rd party, and you rely on trust to get it back, like any escrow service.

And dont give me "enforced with software" because it will be enforced by whoever has the majority in a 2-of-3 multisig.




Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 24, 2015, 12:43:02 AM
Quote
My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow

Thought as much. You are handing over your bitcoin to a 3rd party, and you rely on trust to get it back, like any escrow service.

And dont give me "enforced with software" because it will be enforced by whoever has the majority in a 2-of-3 multisig.

Read my post above. Then read the sidechains white paper. Then come back here when you actually understand how this stuff works

Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance" until then.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 24, 2015, 12:45:17 AM

I'm increasingly convinced you are another one of Lambchamp sock puppet account.

I'm therefore not going to waste my time looking for the dozens of reference by Blockstream developers essentially saying that sidechains can hardly scale the transaction processing power of Bitcoin under current block size.

I quoted myself because the content remains valid: SPV Proofs are competing with transactions for space in blocks. Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.


I think that you're frustrated because your understanding ( or at least hopes) around blockstream are flawed.

Since when do the views of employees trump the vision and mission of the boss?

Your last statement tells me you are foundering and speed reading the white paper for a soundbite that might give the impression that you have a deeper understanding than you do.

And finally:

Quote from: brg444
Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.

Maybe they should try bitcoinXT?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 24, 2015, 12:48:26 AM

I'm increasingly convinced you are another one of Lambchamp sock puppet account.

I'm therefore not going to waste my time looking for the dozens of reference by Blockstream developers essentially saying that sidechains can hardly scale the transaction processing power of Bitcoin under current block size.

I quoted myself because the content remains valid: SPV Proofs are competing with transactions for space in blocks. Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.


I think that you're frustrated because your understanding ( or at least hopes) around blockstream are flawed.

Since when do the views of employees trump the vision and mission of the boss?

Your last statement tells me you are foundering and speed reading the white paper for a soundbite that might give the impression that you have a deeper understanding than you do.

And finally:

Quote from: brg444
Unless the blocksize increase or they become able to reduce the size of these proofs, the scale of side chains might remain limited.

Maybe they should try bitcoinXT?

Or maybe you ought to read the white paper at least a couple of times instead of pulling things out your ass? I've read it a dozen times already so, no, I know how this stuff works.

http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf

You will notice that there is not ONE mention of Bitcoin or transaction capacity scaling inside.


Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance" until then.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Peter R on August 24, 2015, 12:57:27 AM
I've read it a dozen times already so, no, I know how this stuff works.

http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf

You will notice that there is not ONE mention of Bitcoin or transaction capacity scaling inside.


http://i.imgur.com/LxiWZtZ.png


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 24, 2015, 01:28:15 AM
I've read it a dozen times already so, no, I know how this stuff works.

http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf

You will notice that there is not ONE mention of Bitcoin or transaction capacity scaling inside.


http://i.imgur.com/LxiWZtZ.png

 :D

I'll admit I was wrong. How'd I miss this  ???

Anyway the point still stand and I think it is fair to say no one ever proposed sidechains would allow us to support a significant increase in transaction. In the quote from Hill referred above "scale" was used pretty liberally and it is clear his more important message was "faster transaction processing".

From the same article:

Quote
Gregory Maxwell, who first proposed two-way pegging, says that it could provide some relief for bitcoin, though:

"I don't think this will remove the need to increase bitcoin's throughput entirely, but if the technology matures fast enough it may allow for a more conservative approach that increases size only when its very clearly safe to do so."


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 24, 2015, 03:49:28 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

https://forum.blockstack.org/t/blockstack-community-thoughts-on-block-size-bitcoin-xt-debate/152

Quote
My general opinion on the matter is "data or STFU." The motivation for this debate is to help Bitcoin scale up in both the transaction rate and transaction volume. Will making the blocks bigger actually address this in a consequence-free manner, or will it just push the problem down the road, and result in more blockchain bloat and fewer full nodes along the way? I don't know--as far as I know, there's no empirical data on how well an XT network performs compared to a Bitcoin network under similar conditions. Until I see data, I'm calling BS.

Part of the reason I'm skeptical is because distributed systems typically scale by growing sub-linearly with the scaling parameter. For example, DHT nodes do not store every single piece of data, or even routes to every single node; they each store O(k/n) data and O(log k) routes for n nodes and k records. As another example, Internet routers do not store routes to every single publicly-routable host; they assign route prefixes to their neighboring routers, and send packets along the interface with the longest IP prefix match (leading to O(log n) expected number of routing hops for n hosts, and O(1) memory per router).

This does not appear to be the case with Bitcoin XT. Bitcoin XT's might be able to do better than Bitcoin by a constant factor. But, the XT approach is like trying to scale a small computer network by buying a bigger switch and making everyone's ARP table bigger. The system might bear a little bit more load for a proportional resource investment (and probably with unintended consequences), but it won't solve the underlying scalability limitation (feature?) that everyone still needs to mine the same blocks, no matter how big they get or how often they are added.

So, I need to see some extraordinary results from the XT proposal before I believe that it solves the scalability problem, especially if the proposed solution is to do better by a constant factor.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 24, 2015, 08:43:04 AM
Quote
My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow

Thought as much. You are handing over your bitcoin to a 3rd party, and you rely on trust to get it back, like any escrow service.

And dont give me "enforced with software" because it will be enforced by whoever has the majority in a 2-of-3 multisig.

Read my post above. Then read the sidechains white paper. Then come back here when you actually understand how this stuff works

Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance" until then.


A what now?

Quote from: Argument_from _ignorance
The assumption of a conclusion or fact based primarily on lack of evidence to the contrary.  Usually best described by, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

You said it behaves like escrow.

And what I said was, it is placing it into a 3rd party that you need to trust. There is no lack of evidence on this, surely? 

Quote from: Escrow
place in custody or trust of 3rd party until a specified condition has been fulfilled.

What this is doing is changing Satoshis view of bit coin from a "peer-to-peer payment network" to something different. Its so fundamental to what bitcoin is, I frankly dont understand why we are even arguing about it. First line of the white paper makes it pretty clear:

Quote from: Satoshi
A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution

Note the use of the word "Purely". Also note that he also foresaw the possibility of 3rd parties getting involved, and expressly mentioned their exclusion in the opening gambit.

But if you still aren't convinced, try reading a bit further into his white paper. Like to the next line

Quote from: Satoshi
Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main
benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending

So, where is your argument to ignorance?   The only ignorance I see is your own refusal to accept that side chains introduce 'trusted' 3rd parties into what was conceived to be a trust-less peer to peer network.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 24, 2015, 08:50:28 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

https://forum.blockstack.org/t/blockstack-community-thoughts-on-block-size-bitcoin-xt-debate/152

Quote
My general opinion on the matter is "data or STFU." The motivation for this debate is to help Bitcoin scale up in both the transaction rate and transaction volume. Will making the blocks bigger actually address this in a consequence-free manner, or will it just push the problem down the road, and result in more blockchain bloat and fewer full nodes along the way? I don't know--as far as I know, there's no empirical data on how well an XT network performs compared to a Bitcoin network under similar conditions. Until I see data, I'm calling BS.

Part of the reason I'm skeptical is because distributed systems typically scale by growing sub-linearly with the scaling parameter. For example, DHT nodes do not store every single piece of data, or even routes to every single node; they each store O(k/n) data and O(log k) routes for n nodes and k records. As another example, Internet routers do not store routes to every single publicly-routable host; they assign route prefixes to their neighboring routers, and send packets along the interface with the longest IP prefix match (leading to O(log n) expected number of routing hops for n hosts, and O(1) memory per router).

This does not appear to be the case with Bitcoin XT. Bitcoin XT's might be able to do better than Bitcoin by a constant factor. But, the XT approach is like trying to scale a small computer network by buying a bigger switch and making everyone's ARP table bigger. The system might bear a little bit more load for a proportional resource investment (and probably with unintended consequences), but it won't solve the underlying scalability limitation (feature?) that everyone still needs to mine the same blocks, no matter how big they get or how often they are added.

So, I need to see some extraordinary results from the XT proposal before I believe that it solves the scalability problem, especially if the proposed solution is to do better by a constant factor.

People dont keep their money in DHT's, so they can be scaled for performance with little or no regard to security or immutability. Bitcoin has to prevent double spending and enforce immutability in a trust-less way, so is not necessarily free to simply pick the most efficient method.

The scaling debate is certainly not over. But you are only partially right:  bitcoinXT is not the ONLY answer. But its the closest one to ring fencing bitcoins core foundation as a peer-to-peer trust-less network.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sgbett on August 24, 2015, 10:23:04 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hdbuck on August 24, 2015, 11:58:29 AM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.

Lol no.

Or is it based on the same bs that you extrapolated to get your 500k$ bitcoin?

On piece of advice, when you do not qualify, you STFU.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: n2004al on August 24, 2015, 12:02:58 PM
Where do you see you that bitcoin is UP? I see the price of bitcoin at one of the lowest in the last months? Or you meaning the price in the months or years to come?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sgbett on August 24, 2015, 01:54:08 PM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.

Lol no.

Or is it based on the same bs that you extrapolated to get your 500k$ bitcoin?

On piece of advice, when you do not qualify, you STFU.


You seem scared. Just relax, let it happen.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hdbuck on August 24, 2015, 01:55:39 PM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.

Lol no.

Or is it based on the same bs that you extrapolated to get your 500k$ bitcoin?

On piece of advice, when you do not qualify, you STFU.


You seem scared. Just relax, let it happen.

it wont happen, not even considering all the noobish fud you guys seems to bite on.

and then please feel free to gtfo of bitcoin.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hdbuck on August 24, 2015, 02:12:46 PM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.

Lol no.

Or is it based on the same bs that you extrapolated to get your 500k$ bitcoin?

On piece of advice, when you do not qualify, you STFU.


You seem scared. Just relax, let it happen.

it wont happen, not even considering all the noobish fud you guys seems to bite on.

and then please feel free to gtfo of bitcoin.

He's right you know.  Relax!  Who knows, you might learn to enjoy it.


zomg the "he is right" noobs that cant think for themselves are out..

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/d0/d0d418424df7209e239a29caf96e5909315e3442aff2ddb75d139299e29967a2.jpg

gimme a break


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 24, 2015, 04:41:22 PM
Quote
My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow

Thought as much. You are handing over your bitcoin to a 3rd party, and you rely on trust to get it back, like any escrow service.

And dont give me "enforced with software" because it will be enforced by whoever has the majority in a 2-of-3 multisig.

Read my post above. Then read the sidechains white paper. Then come back here when you actually understand how this stuff works

Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance" until then.


A what now?


I won't bother arguing with you until you understand or have read the white paper. My "escrow" comment was a shortcut for your small brain to grasp.

Concentrate on SPV Proof.

Until then.

Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance"



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hdbuck on August 24, 2015, 07:08:57 PM

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/635882565090607105 ;D ;D ;D



http://cdn.teen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/one-does-not-simply-let-it-go-main.jpg


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Carlton Banks on August 24, 2015, 07:52:54 PM
The scaling debate is an open question, but it's now settled that XT is not the answer:

Doing nothing is worse.

Lol no.

Or is it based on the same bs that you extrapolated to get your 500k$ bitcoin?

On piece of advice, when you do not qualify, you STFU.


You seem scared. Just relax, let it happen.

rape! raaaaaaaaaaaaaaape!


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 24, 2015, 08:56:31 PM
Quote
My original Bitcoin is essentially held in escrow

Thought as much. You are handing over your bitcoin to a 3rd party, and you rely on trust to get it back, like any escrow service.

And dont give me "enforced with software" because it will be enforced by whoever has the majority in a 2-of-3 multisig.

Read my post above. Then read the sidechains white paper. Then come back here when you actually understand how this stuff works

Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance" until then.


A what now?


I won't bother arguing with you until you understand or have read the white paper. My "escrow" comment was a shortcut for your small brain to grasp.

Concentrate on SPV Proof.

Until then.

Miss me with your "arguments to ignorance"


Yawn.

SPV proofs are about verification. I'm talking about 'ownership'. You could have just simply said "You send your Bitcoins to a specially formed Bitcoin address. The address is specially designed so that the coins will now be out of your control...."  source (http://gendal.me/2014/10/26/a-simple-explanation-of-bitcoin-sidechains/)
[ yeah, there is a load of proposed stuff which will absolutely, definitely, without a shadow of a doubt GUARANTEE you will get them back, you know, because rules, right?]

But, no. Don't reply. I think we are done here. I feel I'm flogging a donkey that has long since died.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 24, 2015, 09:11:43 PM
Maybe these (http://blog.blockchain.com/2015/08/24/industry-endorses-bigger-blocks-and-bip101/) guys know the difference between ownership and verification?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 24, 2015, 11:59:10 PM

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/635882565090607105 ;D ;D ;D


Frap.doc: "any ideas where to rehost "Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP"? this is the only 1 i'm aware of: http://bitco.in/forum/"

http://i.imgur.com/TMJGeH4.jpg


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: RealBitcoin on August 25, 2015, 12:08:48 AM
How about decentralization for big transactions and centralization for small ones?

It's pretty hard to achieve decentralization on all levels, but we could use XAPO, COINBASE, BITPAY etc to transfer inhouse small payments, and their API could be integrated in any bitcoin merchant's system.

And for larger transactions, with larger fee, we will use the blockchain.

If this system would be realized then we would not need XT , and the blocksize increase can be postponed for alteast 20 years, until then hopefully miners will have better internet connection and bigger hard disks.

Why is it not viable? I just cant understand how the developers cant reach a consensus. It is embarrasing, and I start to lose big faith in them.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 25, 2015, 12:34:14 AM
How about decentralization for big transactions and centralization for small ones?


http://blog.architexa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/comic-book-guy-comment-sc1.jpg


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 25, 2015, 10:22:39 AM

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/635882565090607105 ;D ;D ;D


Frap.doc: "any ideas where to rehost "Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP"? this is the only 1 i'm aware of: http://bitco.in/forum/"


The cheerleaders of banning and censoring still don't realise that they are the best supporters of their enemies. That's amazing.

https://i.imgur.com/jeGrkRf.gif

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1157185.msg12224149#msg12224149


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 25, 2015, 10:25:16 AM

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/635882565090607105 ;D ;D ;D


Frap.doc: "any ideas where to rehost "Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP"? this is the only 1 i'm aware of: http://bitco.in/forum/"


The cheerleaders of banning and censoring still don't realise that they are the best supporters of their enemies. That's amazing.

https://i.imgur.com/jeGrkRf.gif

XT is dead  :)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 25, 2015, 10:31:42 AM
BIP101 (and BIP100 as well) is gaining strength, caused by XT. That's the only thing that's important.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 25, 2015, 10:37:58 AM
BIP101 (and BIP100 as well) is gaining strength, caused by XT. That's the only thing that's important.

Both will get tossed aside once our good folks at Blockstream release their BIP for a flex cap  :)



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 25, 2015, 10:46:29 AM
BIP101 (and BIP100 as well) is gaining strength, caused by XT. That's the only thing that's important.

Both will get tossed aside once our good folks at Blockstream release their BIP for a flex cap  :)



And when that happens, we win.

Once blocks can grow at their own rate, blockstream will be in competition with native bitcoin, with no unfair advantage. And thats really whats going on here. Nobody gives a shit about XT v. Core.  Its about maintaining a level playing field.

 ;D


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 25, 2015, 10:49:03 AM
BIP101 (and BIP100 as well) is gaining strength, caused by XT. That's the only thing that's important.

Both will get tossed aside once our good folks at Blockstream release their BIP for a flex cap  :)



And when that happens, we win.

Once blocks can grow at their own rate, blockstream will be in competition with native bitcoin, with no unfair advantage. And thats really whats going on here. Nobody gives a shit about XT v. Core.  Its about maintaining a level playing field.

 ;D

Blockstream was never meant to be in competition with Bitcoin and definitely could not pretend to any "unfair advantage". good morning lambtroll :)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Carlton Banks on August 25, 2015, 11:12:12 AM
BIP101 (and BIP100 as well) is gaining strength, caused by XT. That's the only thing that's important.

Both will get tossed aside once our good folks at Blockstream release their BIP for a flex cap  :)



And when that happens, we win.

Once blocks can grow at their own rate, blockstream will be in competition with native bitcoin, with no unfair advantage. And thats really whats going on here. Nobody gives a shit about XT v. Core.  Its about maintaining a level playing field.

 ;D

http://i.imgur.com/CNH4VvX.jpg


A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 25, 2015, 11:37:10 AM

A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.


Yeah, you truly are handicapped - finally something I agree with you on.   ;D  (joking)

Blocksize is already dynamic. Have a look at the recent block sizes, they vary from 300kb to over 900kb. Edit: :D fixed to kb. Thanks RealBitcoin

However, it will be always limited by whatever max blocksize is set to. Dynamic dosn't mean infinite.

And you are right, as max size gets larger, spam attacks are disincentiveised, so not sure why you say that.  ???


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: RealBitcoin on August 25, 2015, 11:45:46 AM

A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.


Yeah, you truly are handicapped - finally something I agree with you on.   ;D  (joking)

Blocksize is already dynamic. Have a look at the recent block sizes, they vary from 300mb to over 900mb.

However, it will be always limited by whatever max blocksize is set to. Dynamic dosn't mean infinite.

And you are right, as max size gets larger, spam attacks are disincentiveised, so not sure why you say that.  ???

You mean kilobytes. And it rarely hits 900 kb, its more like between 300-500, and if it rarely hits 1 mb, oh boy, i dont think a little delay will affect people.

Now to make it more performant i think the 4-8 mb block increase should be appropriate now, simultaneously with some internal payment processors, that can do the dust transactions inhouse (without fee, but centralized) while the big ones would go (with fee, but decentralized) on the blockchain.

XAPO,COINBASE,BITPAY, CIRCLE, etc could/should do it....


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 25, 2015, 11:47:07 AM

Blockstream was never meant to be in competition with Bitcoin and definitely could not pretend to any "unfair advantage". good morning lambtroll :)

Of course it is. To make a compelling business case fro sidechains, there has to be a large volume of traffic. The best way to get this volume ( without creating it or finding it yourself) is o take it from the existing traffic. If fee's can be forced upwards, it makes it easier to coax that traffic from native bitcoin to a privately run sidechain.

I should point out that I have no beef with the idea of sidechains. Or LN for that matter. But I feel they need to stand on their own merits, and compete for traffic on their own merits, and not through a competitive advantage achieved by an artificial price distortion.

If I was lambie, I would be inserting bouncing ponies here.  ;)


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Carlton Banks on August 25, 2015, 11:49:31 AM

A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.

Dynamic dosn't mean infinite.

Spam attacks won't be infinite either. Go home.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 25, 2015, 11:54:04 AM

A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.

Dynamic dosn't mean infinite.

Spam attacks won't be infinite either. Go home.

Stick to your small blocks then, and fork off into a footnote in the history of bitcoin, Carlton


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 25, 2015, 11:57:31 AM

You mean kilobytes. And it rarely hits 900 kb, its more like between 300-500, and if it rarely hits 1 mb, oh boy, i dont think a little delay will affect people.

Now to make it more performant i think the 4-8 mb block increase should be appropriate now, simultaneously with some internal payment processors, that can do the dust transactions inhouse (without fee, but centralized) while the big ones would go (with fee, but decentralized) on the blockchain.

XAPO,COINBASE,BITPAY, CIRCLE, etc could/should do it....

Yes, sorry. Not since the days of the zx81 has a kilobyte been so important.!  :)

I'm sure that will happen - but it will happen in the context of an open market on the blockchain.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Adrian-x on August 25, 2015, 03:48:48 PM

A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.

Dynamic dosn't mean infinite.

Spam attacks won't be infinite either. Go home.

for someone who has been around longer than the Blockstreams shills, you should know better, Blockstream are actively trying to move bitcoin transactions off the Bitcoin blockchain.

Whatever their reasons, lower transaction volume will reduce miners income as block subsidies diminishes, that is a change to the revenue necessary to support the incentive structure inherent in Bitcoin.

now trying to disprove the obvious is disingenuous, we already know that miners are incentivized to mine the smallest blocks possible so we dont need to change Bitcoin at all, we just need to remove the cap.

every thing else is FUD.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 25, 2015, 08:22:08 PM

A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.

Dynamic dosn't mean infinite.

Spam attacks won't be infinite either. Go home.

for someone who has been around longer than the Blockstreams shills, you should know better, Blockstream are actively trying to move bitcoin transactions off the Bitcoin blockchain.

Whatever their reasons, lower transaction volume will reduce miners income as block subsidies diminishes, that is a change to the revenue necessary to support the incentive structure inherent in Bitcoin.

now trying to disprove the obvious is disingenuous, we already know that miners are incentivized to mine the smallest blocks possible so we dont need to change Bitcoin at all, we just need to remove the cap.

every thing else is FUD.

FUD

Miners will be able to merge mine sidechains.

"Remove the cap"

You realise how clueless you sound when you say such a thing? You think you figured it out and EVERYONE else is too dumb to understand it !? Well understand there is no support from any sides for lifting the cap completely for absolutely good reasons. So enjoy the crow because your dreams are about to be crushed, repeatedly.

By that I mean:

-XT is DOA
-8MB blocks are DOA
-Blockstream will save the day
-Sidechains will be a resounding success

Enjoy the little time you have left pretending "things are working your way"


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Carlton Banks on August 25, 2015, 08:31:57 PM

A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.

Dynamic dosn't mean infinite.

Spam attacks won't be infinite either. Go home.

for someone who has been around longer than the Blockstreams shills, you should know better, Blockstream are actively trying to move bitcoin transactions off the Bitcoin blockchain.

Whatever their reasons, lower transaction volume will reduce miners income as block subsidies diminishes, that is a change to the revenue necessary to support the incentive structure inherent in Bitcoin.

now trying to disprove the obvious is disingenuous, we already know that miners are incentivized to mine the smallest blocks possible so we dont need to change Bitcoin at all, we just need to remove the cap.

every thing else is FUD.

that's a whole load of stuff I did not state. what was the purpose of saying it in reply to my comment?


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 25, 2015, 08:40:28 PM

A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.

Dynamic dosn't mean infinite.

Spam attacks won't be infinite either. Go home.

for someone who has been around longer than the Blockstreams shills, you should know better, Blockstream are actively trying to move bitcoin transactions off the Bitcoin blockchain.

Whatever their reasons, lower transaction volume will reduce miners income as block subsidies diminishes, that is a change to the revenue necessary to support the incentive structure inherent in Bitcoin.

now trying to disprove the obvious is disingenuous, we already know that miners are incentivized to mine the smallest blocks possible so we dont need to change Bitcoin at all, we just need to remove the cap.

every thing else is FUD.

that's a whole load of stuff I did not state. what was the purpose of saying it in reply to my comment?

Don't mind him. He's panicking.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: brg444 on August 25, 2015, 09:05:49 PM

A dynamic blocksize can outgrow (and disincentivise) whatever spam attack that anyone throws at it. BIP101 has no chance against that.

Dynamic dosn't mean infinite.

Spam attacks won't be infinite either. Go home.

for someone who has been around longer than the Blockstreams shills, you should know better, Blockstream are actively trying to move bitcoin transactions off the Bitcoin blockchain.

Whatever their reasons, lower transaction volume will reduce miners income as block subsidies diminishes, that is a change to the revenue necessary to support the incentive structure inherent in Bitcoin.

now trying to disprove the obvious is disingenuous, we already know that miners are incentivized to mine the smallest blocks possible so we dont need to change Bitcoin at all, we just need to remove the cap.

every thing else is FUD.

Quote
“We do support big blocks if it is implemented in Bitcoin Core. But we believe the whole ‘Bitcoin’ XT thing is manipulation,” Chun said. “While the question whether and how to increase the block-size limit is a technical one, the Bitcoin Core and ‘Bitcoin’ XT issue is political. By introducing ‘Bitcoin’ XT, Gavin Andresen and Mike Hearn are splitting the community. Totalitarianism and dictators cannot co-exist with the free and open-source software spirit.”

Chun’s opposition wasn’t subtle.

“Boycott ‘Bitcoin’ XT. Bitcoin Core forever. Gavin Andresen and Mike Hearn should resign,” he said.

 :D :D :D :D


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 25, 2015, 09:43:17 PM


Quote
“We do support big blocks”

 

Thats the key take away here. Nobody cares who he hates, or who he wants to shove his d into, or who should resign or who should run for president.
 
What he is saying is - "I dont give a shit what your reasons are Core, but give me big blocks or I wont support you..."


Its big blocks all the way, yo.   ;D ;D


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 29, 2015, 01:31:40 AM
https://i.imgur.com/F56hISl.jpg
:'(  the only force i see is the censorship   :'(

Aww, sad Frap.doc has a sad.   :-[

You really don't understand the enormous difference between moderation and censorship?

Or are you invoking the specter of authoritarianism in a cheap attempt to rationalize your pouting?

After all your altcoin-hater BS invoking Metcalfe's network effect, you defect and self-isolate on bitco.in's obscure forum for rage-quitters....

Have fun with the dozen or so XT dead-enders on that lost island of misfit Gavinistas!   :D


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 29, 2015, 01:40:34 AM

Quote
“the whole ‘Bitcoin’ XT thing is manipulation,” Chun said. “the Bitcoin Core and ‘Bitcoin’ XT issue is political. By introducing ‘Bitcoin’ XT, Gavin Andresen and Mike Hearn are splitting the community. Totalitarianism and dictators cannot co-exist with the free and open-source software spirit.”

Chun’s opposition wasn’t subtle.

Boycott ‘Bitcoin’ XT. Bitcoin Core forever. Gavin Andresen and Mike Hearn should resign,” he said.

 :D :D :D :D

Quote
BitFury CEO Valery Vavilov told Bitcoin Magazine: “The Bitcoin Blockchain is not an amateur project anymore – it is becoming a platform for the Global Economy of Things. Changing the base rules can affect a lot of things, thus, any changes should be done very carefully, gradually, and with tests.”

He added: “The proposed transition to the alternative client raises some concerns about its security: It is well known that key parts of the default Bitcoin Core client were thoroughly checked and sometimes formally verified, which cannot be said about alternative clients – including Bitcoin XT.”

https://i.imgur.com/zZhafzU.jpg


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 29, 2015, 06:28:03 AM
https://i.imgur.com/F56hISl.jpg
:'(  the only force i see is the censorship   :'(

Aww, sad Frap.doc has a sad.   :-[

You really don't understand the enormous difference between moderation and censorship?

Or are you invoking the specter of authoritarianism in a cheap attempt to rationalize your pouting?


Bitcoin is forking, the forum is forking and the Gold thread as well. This is only a cheap copy of the original thread for haters, stalkers, warriors and censorship lovers. The original thread is alive and well.

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.[1]

Governments, private organizations and individuals may engage in censorship. When an individual such as an author or other creator engages in censorship of their own works or speech, it is called self-censorship.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship#cite_note-1


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: tvbcof on August 29, 2015, 06:47:01 AM

Bitcoin is forking, the forum is forking and the Gold thread as well. This is only a cheap copy of the original thread for haters, stalkers, warriors and censorship lovers. The original thread is alive and well.

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.[1]

Governments, private organizations and individuals may engage in censorship. When an individual such as an author or other creator engages in censorship of their own works or speech, it is called self-censorship.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship#cite_note-1

XT is an alt and thus not on topic in a lot of venues.  Quit being a whiny little cunt.

As I've said before, I don't agree with shutting down cypherdoc's thread, but the action has produced a cornucopia of lulz so I'm at least half glad they did it.

It is also worth note that theymos doesn't run this site for the purposes of giving Bitcoin attackers a platform upon which to do their work.  He is much more tolerant of this when it happens (about 1000 time/day with the XT attack) than most people would be so you should be thanking the guy.



Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on August 29, 2015, 06:51:33 AM

Bitcoin is forking, the forum is forking and the Gold thread as well. This is only a cheap copy of the original thread for haters, stalkers, warriors and censorship lovers. The original thread is alive and well.

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.[1]

Governments, private organizations and individuals may engage in censorship. When an individual such as an author or other creator engages in censorship of their own works or speech, it is called self-censorship.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship#cite_note-1

XT is an alt and thus not on topic in a lot of venues.  Quit being a whiny little cunt.

As I've said before, I don't agree with shutting down cypherdoc's thread, but the action has produced a cornucopia of lulz so I'm at least half glad they did it.

It is also worth note that theymos doesn't run this site for the purposes of giving Bitcoin attackers a platform upon which to do their work.  He is much more tolerant of this when it happens (about 1000 time/day with the XT attack) than most people would be so you should be thanking the guy.

The saddest part is the XT brigade do not see it as an attack but rather a necessary evil to help us ... a lot like

"Hi, we're Mike & Gavin from the government and we're here to help!"


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Zarathustra on August 29, 2015, 06:54:35 AM
Where the bitcoin attackers are coming from is crystal clear, and not only in Russia:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1164828.0


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 29, 2015, 01:43:19 PM
Quit being a whiny little cunt.


You stay classy, Blockstream!!

http://s.iosfans.com/?u=http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maod5gOCdx1rdo3o5o1_250.jpg


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on August 30, 2015, 06:09:56 AM
https://i.imgur.com/EYATiQv.jpg

This is only a cheap copy of the original thread for haters, stalkers, warriors and censorship lovers.   :'(
Censorship  :'(
censorship   >:(
censorship   :'(
Censorship   :'(


XT is an alt and thus not on topic in a lot of venues.  Quit being a whiny little cunt.

I don't agree with shutting down cypherdoc's thread, but the action has produced a cornucopia of lulz so I'm at least half glad they did it.

Agree 1000%.  Case in point:

"Hi, we're Mike & Gavin from the government and we're here to help!"

>50% of pools are signalling support for BIP100 (IE ANYTHING BUT XT/BIP101)

ZOMG HALP TEH POOLZ R SENSORING MUH FREE SPEACH!!11!

/Gavintard


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: muyuu on October 17, 2015, 11:55:22 PM
This is like Gresham's Law but for lesser fineness in forum members  ;D

We keep the good ones, and spend the debased ones.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: Oscilson on October 20, 2015, 08:31:59 PM
Good price is quite stable.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: hdbuck on February 09, 2016, 07:26:43 PM
mymy coindesk: http://www.coindesk.com/bankrupt-bitcoin-mining-firm-trustee-seeks-return-of-funds-from-former-promoter/

Quote
By doing so, the court would essentially require that Lowe pay back the 3,000 BTC at today’s rate rather than the value, in dollar terms, when he received it in September 2013


http://ci.memecdn.com/767/5307767.gif


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: iCEBREAKER on February 09, 2016, 08:10:30 PM
mymy coindesk: http://www.coindesk.com/bankrupt-bitcoin-mining-firm-trustee-seeks-return-of-funds-from-former-promoter/

Quote
By doing so, the court would essentially require that Lowe pay back the 3,000 BTC at today’s rate rather than the value, in dollar terms, when he received it in September 2013


http://ci.memecdn.com/767/5307767.gif

Maybe, maybe not.

Frap.doc has taken my advice to bring in heavy hitting lawyers of his own, rather than his initial plan to represent himself against the Chicago Boys' local lackeys.

If Dr. Frappe loses, I can't wait to find out how the judge justifies retroactively taking his sales commission based on events (ie bankruptcy and BTC price increases) that happened months after his tangential involvement ended.


Title: Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. [NooNooPol]
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on February 10, 2016, 08:42:03 AM
the old commodity or currency dodge, didn't that Ponzi scheme guy from Texas Pirate@40 try the same ruse?

Frappe.Doc is in esteemed company, POS that he is.