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I actually hopped a plane from Turkey and visited BFL office in Kansas City, everybody was great, if you have any doubts about about their operation or intentions you can relax, they are really working hard, trying to answer every question you ask from emails to forums, they value your opinions, and they are really trying hard to meet the deadlines they promised.

I'm buying some mini rigs from them, they have 12-15 weeks of lead time for them and I completely understand why they have that lead time.

I know I sound like an advertisement but thats what I saw while I was there so :)

If you have any questions about my visit I may answer them for you here.

Photos ?

sorry no photos  , but if you are asking them for confirmation , BFL guys can vouch for me :)

That was really a good idea. I thought about that myself but I don't have time to travel right now.

Here are a couple of questions:

What is their place of business (address) and what are their real names?

Why all the secrecy about who they are and where they are?

Which FPGA chip are they using? (they say we can use it for other purpose, but at the same time they do everything to hide what it is from customers).

Why do they keep telling 6-8 weeks while they must clearly know they can't pull it off by now? It's been 6 months they have been claiming 6-8 weeks.

Did you meet the main engineer with the funny accent or just Sonny?

Are they really building them there one by one in their office?

What's with all the fake information about making medical devices?

I suppose the "the lady" in the picture is an employee of their assembling/prototyping house, not their own employee. Do they actually have any employees?

Why did their company incorporator/registered agent deny any connection with these guys and resign in January?

Why are they coming up with products that only exist in their imagination (Rig Box, Mini Rig Box) and take payments for it? Only to find out later that what they thought was possible does already fail with the basics (powering 2500 Watt, cooling 2500 Watt, etc).

What are they doing different than others to come up with nearly twice the hashing power per chip?

Where do I go if I send them my $15k and they disappear overnight?

As you can see, my confidence is very low right now. But if anybody convinces me otherwise, sending money to BFL is back on the table. I have money and I want to buy mining hardware. My confidence in them was much higher before, that's when I sent them $17k cash (for singles that I would still be waiting for while the promised delivery time passed twice, and for a product that was cancelled, the Rig Box). Luckily I pulled the plug early enough and received my money back (I paid the majority via PayPal).

All the things surrounding BFL are like buying something off The Silk Road from a seller with very bad reputation. Maybe you'll get something, maybe not. Maybe you'll get it within the promised time frame, maybe not. Maybe you'll get good quality, maybe not. Maybe, if things go down hill, the seller will go offline with your Bitcoins and never come back.

Now one question for you personally:

What makes you think that you will be better off with a couple of Mini Rigs than your own FPGA cluster? Surely it must be possible to build your own FPGA cluster in the same time frame for a similar amount of money, without taking the risk of somebody screwing you over big time. A higher price might also be worth it, for the lower risk of the transaction. Did you speak to the other FPGA board vendors?

And since you are so willing to take a big risk, have you considered giving $2250 to an escrow agent (with virtually no risk) for a LargeCoin 20GH/s unit that will cost you $15k and will be delivered in July if everything goes smoothly? Even if you don't believe in LC, ordering a few virtually doesn't cost you anything except sending a relatively small amount of money to an escrow, which will send it back to you in case they are not holding up their promise. Doesn't this make more sense?

Thanks for your reply. I take it you are also buying stuff on silk road from sellers with bad reputation, just because it's cheaper ;)

(and sorry, I was still editing my post when you already replied)

My question:  What is the shipping out timeframe for singles?  Are they currently "catching up" on their backordered items, or getting further behind, or simply keeping up?

They were shipping tons of them, while I was there, but I wasn't interested in singles so I don't know, sorry

Yea bank escrow always makes sense, but I've seen BFL unit with my own eyes, touched it and saw it in operation, I never saw a Largecoin unit or not tested how it works, and the encryption thingy in largecoin units immediately made me look elsewhere :), if everything goes smoothly I'll have my rigs in the same time frame. I cannot say anything good or bad about largecoin though I dont know anything about it except whats in the forum.

You saw a mini rig in operation?

nope I saw the individual blocks, rig itself wasn't ready yet, but it be built from those singles so :).

You don't have to answer it if you don't want to, but I'd be interested to know how many rigs/mini-rigs you ordered. ;D

super cool story bro

not much :) half a dozen or so :)

Gigavps has competition  ;D

Sorry if I missed something, did gigavps place an order for a few units as well?

He's currently got the most publicly known amount of singles. :P

And 4 mini rigs ordered - this is all public info

You saw the current "individual blocks" aka 832 MH/s singles 80+ Watt, not the next generation ones?

If BFL is using their "own chip" not something off the self, whey do they need to sand off the top? That's just BS in my opinion. They are using a programmable device just like everybody else. It would be quite strange if they would have finances to make their own chips then end up with an 80 Watt device but don't have money to manufacture a couple of mini rigs without taking the customers money 3 months in advance. And how would "their own chip" be programmable with a new bitstream? Unless they are now in the business of competing with Xilinx and Altera and they make their own FPGA devices.

Did they really tell you that these are their own chips or did you mean to say something else?

There is just so much wrong with BFL's stories it makes my eyes roll. That's what I meant with "secrecy" in my original questions. Instead of asking why all the secrecy I could also be asking why all the BS.

Maybe it's cheaper to *not* stamp the logo and info into the packaging? And who knows, maybe they are the next xilinx or altera....

seems like a lot of work to sand off all the tops, maybe they are lapping them to get that extra performance.... 

I hope I see my products soon, the wife is asking daily now "when are we getting that new computer stuff" lol

This is another point I don't understand.

If you invest $100,000 or so you clearly have to think about risks and exit strategies.

BTC coming to a grinding halt and you can use your $100k devices as paper weights. Same if mining with FPGA's becomes unprofitable. Or if for some reason you need your money back.

With $100k invested in off the shelf FPGA devices (instead of "BFL's own chip") you could salvage the chips and recover a substantial amount of your $100k investment in the very worst case. If Bitcoin would still be going, the resale value of a an FPGA cluster would virtually be the same or higher as a BFL unit.

It just doesn't compute with me why on earth somebody would take that kind of risk and give his money to BFL of all.

Maybe just because I am working in the electronics industry for a company in Hong Kong (not related to Bitcoin or mining) and I know how this kind of stuff works and goes wrong all the time. That's probably also why I can see that lots of info coming from BFL is BS. I am certainly not somebody that knows everything and all of it, and I am no engineer/developer. But I have a certain perspective that a simple end user might not have. I've been handling developing and manufacturing projects for over a decade, on a small scale not Foxxconn/Apple size, but still significant.

Give me your $100k (and some more) and I'll build you a mining rig with lower risk and one that can truly be used for something else than Bitcoin mining and with higher after market value. I may even find another person or two to put down the same amount of money. And if something goes wrong with Bitcoin, I promise to salvage the FPGA devices for you to get your investment back. And after all, Chinese New Year is over, so I will probably do it much faster than BFL ;) (<- I am just kidding).

BFL making their own custom chips seems hard to believe. Their performance per dollar is much better than existing FPGA solutions, but their performance per watt is worse than current FPGA implementations. That's the opposite of what you'd expect from a custom ASIC, at least in the small quantities that BFL would be producing.

Maybe it's some sort of custom FPGA that happens to have fast adders, originally intended for supercomputing applications, and now re-purposed for mining. Remember that BFL and their Single already existed before they stumbled onto mining (and had to redesign the power supply just like Stefan of ZTEX). Being a custom FPGA, it did not wind up as energy-efficient as the products of Xilinx and Altera.

They can use MPW MOSIS to produce small qty of chips.
http://www.mosis.com/products/fab-schedule

Citation needed.

No offense but for someone who's visited them, you don't appear to know much. All of your answers are very generic.

I have doubts that this other engineer even exists personally.
From what I've heard/seen BFL could just consist of Sonny and his mother.
Maybe that's why they take forever to reply to emails or fulfil orders?

Probably the most shady thing about BFL is the long lead time.

I still think they are using this to mine on the units so they get half of the unit already paid before they ship them out to the customer.

How many units did you see they were "testing" ::)

Although I don't have a link to anything specific, it was a member of chugalug (http://www.chugalug.org/) that pointed them our way, when they had an early prototype. I'm sure they have both regretted taking him up, and also embraced the business opportunity, since there was and continues to be so much bullshit and flak from bitcoiners, but also so many orders. The Bitcoiner is an enigma, really. 2 parts asshole to 1 part greedy consumer, for most.

That engineer exists :) i can vouch for that, I'm a computer scientist, I manifacture electronics in taiwan, china, Turkey since 1994, I know the deal, they are not a scam, It's not two guys and a table, they have a nice operation setup scaling up nicely, I'm not under NDA but since I respect them and I know how this type of business works, I'll act like I'm under NDA and cannot disclose any details, I'll try to answer any questions that does not breach that line otherwise , I'll be giving general answers, sorry.

I believe someone declaring that they just spent abour 100k into bitcoin and it's future, and trust that It will have that value in the future actually helps this community, thats the reason I opened this topic, It's my way of telling everybody, I just risked 100k$ , I risked it for bitcoin and I trust bitcoin enough that I believe I'll get my money back and have profit.

If you think on that line what I do is good for Bitcoin, I'm publicly declaring that I trust it enough to risk my money, alot of it.

Bitcoin does not have any intrinsic value other that our trust in it, so In bitcoin, I trust :) , we should declare our trust in it, and act accordingly, I'm taking that risk because my my gut tells me BTC will be far more valuable in the future :) .

and actually telling you guys I'm getting them is not in my best interest because this is also like a competition, and you always have the advantage when competition doesn't know what you are doing, but I believe declaring this publicly will benefit me more in the future by inreasing trust in bitcoin so I'm doing it anyway.

Well, in this case it IS in your best interest to tell people that you're ordering a bunch of rigs, because that might further discourage other people from adding hashing power to the network, securing more profits for yourself in the future.  ;)

Why moan about someone else's money ? if he wants to invest then it is his choice.

ok dont invest in bitcoin then, problem solved :) , I am not selling anything, I dont care what you do with your money, I am not trying to prove anything , what else do you want ?  free cookies ? :)

I can confirm that there is in fact more people working on the BFL stuff than just Sonny and the Ninja Lady.  I've spoken to and worked with one of the engineers... how do you think EasyMiner is being made, out of thin air? 

No, we just assumed you and 'Sonny' are one in the same.

;)

I know this is going into conspiracy tinfoil territory but I would not surprise me if gigasvps and Inaba were actually employed by BFL since they seem to be doing a lot of their PR work on these forums ...

I don't have any evidence, however ...

Yeah, because it isn't true...

Ztex, ngazhang and FPGAmining don't have to take 'bullshit and flak' from bitcoiners (except the one dude who decided to buy Icarus when ngzhang already stopped making them, and he decided to bash Chinese for the size of their dong, just because he was too late for the party lol). I am not Chinese by the way ;)

The problem doesn't lie with bitcoiners, it lies with BFL.

Not even right at the very beginning when they first offered their products? And I mean in general as well, not necessarily specific cases.

No, not even at the beginning. The BS already started at that time.

For instance, the (now defunct) company registration under "BF Labs" in Wyoming because of tax reasons and it's supposedly the place to be for Furtune 500 companies.

Wyoming is a very odd choice for tax reasons. And there are no Fortune 500 incorporations in Wyoming. Heck, we don't even know if this is really their own business registration and they are not just pointing at it.

The list of BFL BS is never ending. They must be thinking we are all complete idiots.

Their only advantage is that some people here on the forums decided to defend them. Maybe because they are trying to convince themselves that they put their money on the winning horse, or maybe because they are really confident in what they are doing. But that doesn't change the fact that sending your money to BFL is extremely risky (even leaving out all the Bitcoin related risks).

I'm not defending anyone here , this is not a thread about your opinions, if you have opinions on the subject, please open up a new thread and voice them there.

stop trolling.

I was talking to rjk and he was talking to me.

If you believe I am trolling you got the wrong idea.

And last time I checked this was a public forum.


You are not? Let me quote the opening paragraph in your initial post in this thread.


But in general I wasn't even referring to you directly.

We already have enough BFL threads, I am not going to open a new one.

After seeing the things people do around here I almost think I would be in agreement with them, if that is indeed what they think.

Arguing about it at this point is pointless, It won't change anything :) , We'll see in a few months anyway :) , be patient :)

I walked past the future offices of BFL twelve years ago, ask me anything....

Joking aside, the reason people were excited about this thread and subsequently disappointed with its lack of useful information is that BFL is NOT transparent. If they want people to trust them, they need to be a lot more open about their business. If they know they are going to be late with shipments, be HONEST about it. If they have only 150 units for this batch and anyone ordering now won't get theirs until August, BE HONEST about it. We can handle the truth.

Why is there so much secrecy surrounding this company? Why doesn't "sonny" reveal his real name?  Are they dealing with gray market or worse, goods that they would be ashamed to admit they are using that they have to sand the part numbers off of? Are they worried about retaliation? From whom?  Are they worried about the Feds? The IRS? Are they worried about us? All very strange.

WTF, seriously?  Are you trolling or just an idiot naturally?  They are perfectly open about their business.  Have they incorrectly estimated ship and development time in the past?  Yes, of course.  But have they been dishonest about it?  No.  They did not understand exactly what they were getting into in the beginning, yes they are guilty of ignorance.  

As far as shipping dates goes, they seem to be hitting their targets lately, they are saying 15 weeks on MR's, which puts you into August, so we'll see if they are accurate there.


What secrecy?  Sonny is his real name, what ever gave you the idea it wasn't?  With people like you on the forums, it's a wonder he even has given his real name.  Posts like yours are so tiring... they are so full of bullshit, lies and half-truths that are completely disconnected from reality, it's almost painful.  I question how it's even possible to become so misinformed in the first place if you've even read 1/100 of the posts made already.  You keep spouting the same shit you heard from someone else who was just as misinformed as you now are.  If you don't know something first hand, take your hands off the keyboard, step  back and refrain from posting, since you don't know shit, your opinion is irrelevant.

Above all else, if you don't like them, don't trust them, hate them, etc... DON'T BUY THEIR EQUIPMENT!  Quit bitching about it.  Vote with your dollars and go elsewhere.  They don't need your business, and probably don't even want it even if they did.  As you've so conveniently pointed out by reference, they have more business than they can handle at the moment, so you not buying anything from them is not going to cause a problem, so stop bitching.

Come on this is just asinine.  THEY ARE STILL SAYING 4-6 weeks for a single.
As far as "meeting shipping targets".  Not one single order has shipped in <6 weeks.  How exactly is that meeting targets?

It wasn't they were wrong about shipping back in Nov and then quickly provided more realistic estimates.

In Oct offered boards for delivery in 4-6 weeks for new orders.
In Nov (nothing had shipped and they realized their performance/power estimates were way) knowing it would require new boards guaranteed delivery on new orders in 4-6 weeks.
In Dec (nothing had shipped) still guaranteed delivery on new orders in 4-6 weeks.
In Jan (nothing had shipped and they had delays due to Chinese new year) still guaranteed delivery on new orders in 4-6 weeks.
In Feb finally shipped the first boards had huge backlog and ... still guaranteed delivery on new orders in 4-6 weeks.
In March had some delays, very early (up to Dec) boards shipped and ... still guaranteed delivery on new orders in 4-6 weeks.
In April the January orders (mostly?) shipped but they haven't even touched the Feb, March, April orders but new orders ... still guaranteed delivery on new orders in 4-6 weeks.

99% of the complaints against BFL are just stupid but defending their shipping timelines and saying they are "meeting shipping targets" is just as stupid.

You think they are on "target"?    How about a bet?  I will buy a Single today and if it ships in <6 weeks I pay you $600 (or equiv in BTC).  If it doesn't you pay me $600.  Why $600?  Well because I am 100% convinced I would get the Single for free I just won't be getting it in no 6 weeks. :)

there is nothing strange about it, you give them money , they give you equipment. It is a two sided equation, I'm happy as a customer, they are happy as the manifacturer, you are not in the equation , please stop trolling, and I also completely agree with what Inaba said above.

At this point, I'd take you up on it, but I need the money elsewhere, not sitting in escrow for 6 weeks.

I will take you up on that bet, DT.  Absolutely. Order that single today and and show me a receipt of the order and we'll see on the 24th if you have one for free or not.

Ordered.  PM sent for receipt.

I may be the only person w/ an ordered Single which is hoping it arrives in >43 days. :)

Wait,

the one that orders has to be unknown to BFL, otherwise BFL could just send out a unit to show it can deliver.

;)

spiccioli.

Yeah like it's going to say "DeathAndTaxes" on the shipping label heh.

I don't get the joke.  Death A. Taxes is my legal name. 

Still I think people in this thread might get a little suspicious if I get my order before they get theirs. :)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67887.0

Just on your point about Wyoming... Wyoming was the first state to allow formation of LLC's, thus it has the most established case law.  Many lawyers still recommend "incorporating" as a Wyoming LLC.  For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_company and do a find-in-page on Wyoming.

Gosh!

sometimes I completely forget that there is a real life out there :D

spiccioli

Trying to order a Mini-Rig, they have sent me very lousy bank details, when I tell them I need SWIFT number and IBAN number for Internatinal transfer, they say the have no idea what these are.

I have doubt about trusting these people now.

Don't worry about it.

Just hand over the money to them.

I am sure they will deliver !!!

Maybe you spoke to the Ninja old lady ( people of her age don't usually know what SWIFT / IBAN is ;) ) so try asking / calling again and ask for Sonny maybe ...

North American banks don't use IBAN numbers. At least for mine, you concat the institution number, transit number and account number together, not necessarily in that order. That's not a BFL think, it's just an issue sending wires between Europe and NA. They should know what a SWIFT number is though, although that is sometimes labeled differently here. My bank calls the SWIFT number the BIC.

They haven't hit any of the shipping targets yet... they're still shipping out January orders, haven't even touched the February orders.  All of the units have been shipped > 6 weeks after being ordered thus far.

You should be fine with the details provided by BFL. My payment went smoothly and bank's staff knew how to process it without SWIFT or IBAN.

^ This.

NA Banks don't use IBAN/SWIFT, they use a Clearing Code and/or Fedwire/ABA code.

They do use SWIFT codes ! Here the information i got from Sonny:

Bank name: XXX
Bank address: XXX
Swift:  XXX
ABA / Routing: XXX
Account Name: XXX
Account Number: XXX
Account Address: XXX

If you call that lousy you have no idea !

Edit: Account information removed on request of BFL

What about their Dwolla payment option ? any draw back top using it ?

I used it, and it took a few days for them to finally receive payment from me (paid Monday, went through Friday).  Not sure if a wire would be any faster though.  And Sonny kept my original order date as my place in line, not the date when he received the funds.  So really, considering the current backorder, there's no disadvantage I can think of to using Dwolla.

I received the same bank information as Turbor right before I wired $30k to BFL on March 13th, the receipt of which Sonny confirmed on March 14th.  Although I didn't need the SWIFT code, they did provide it to me.  ice_chill's claim that BFL says they don't know their bank's SWIFT number is a lie.

It wasn't a lie, I have received a follow up email from another person from their company with the SWIFT code, the first person that sent the email did not know it.

Then you should've edited your post.  My apologies.

So, another thread about BFL.

Have to subscribe :)

It's one of the best soap opera around here, you can't miss that.  ;D

I just ordered a few yesterday, was going to order 30 but decided to only order 23 for now and see, I don't want lock too much money for too long and waiting for a mini-rig 4 month wait list is too painful for me so the compromise was the singles, so hopefully after you get yours on the 24th of May or earlier I get my order by the 28th at the latest too hehe :p

America is the only place that I know of that actually has a continuous running soap opera going for longer than 20 years... and incredibly it's still popular... /so sad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronation_Street
Coronation Street is an English continuous drama set in Weatherfield, a fictional town in Greater Manchester[1] based on Salford. ... Coronation Street was first broadcast on 9 December 1960.

On 17 September 2010, it became the world's longest-running TV soap opera in production, after the United States soap opera As the World Turns ended.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EastEnders
EastEnders is a British television soap opera, first broadcast in the United Kingdom on BBC One on 19 February 1985

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighbours
Neighbours is an Australian television soap opera. It was first broadcast on the Seven Network on 18 March 1985

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_and_Away
Home and Away is an Australian soap opera/Drama that has been produced in Sydney since July 1987 and has aired on the Seven Network since 17 January 1988


marked

So the british not only have the worst comedy now they have the longest running soap opera... So sad : p hehe. America still has the largest number of crappy movies to make up for it ; p

We also have the largest number of good movies.  Well.. that and we basically own the entire movie industry for all intents and purposes.  Gotta expect some shit from the giant pile we produce.

Yes America does produce a giant pile of shit, but every now and then you get a nugget of gold.

lol why has this become America vs Britain ? I would love to see a BFL type company here in Britain, but we don't have one. I am much happier dealing with a company in USA then if it was a company in China.

Regardless of the design origin, almost everything is made in China.  ;D

This is really easy to figure out.  Their board has an exposed JTAG header; just hook it up and query for the IDCODE.  I've offered a 5BTC bounty for whoever does this first.

BFL indicated that won't work.  My guess is the JTAG header is not connected directly to the chip.

That sounds like BFL trying to discourage people from trying.  If the header weren't connected to anything, they wouldn't have wasted board space on it.  Also, not having a JTAG connection to the most expensive device on the board is a huge DFM (design for manufacturability) and DFT (design for testability) nightmare.

I'll still pay 5BTC for an IDCODE readout even if it turns out the "big chip" is not on the chain and all that comes back is some sort of flash memory device (e.g. for holding configuration data).

I'm also very interested in this. Someone do it please!

What if they switched pins around on the JTAG header (not even sure if it is populated on the PCB, I won't bother to look at the pictures).

What are the chances of the BFL chips being a genuine Cell ASIC anyway?

I get the whole calling the bluff thing, but shouldn't it come up at digikey or mouser if you *just* select the right package and look in the price range? (What form factor is the package some VFBGAXXX, but which one?)

It's easy enough to figure out if someone would just probe the damn thing. lol
There are actually a surprising amount of JTAG configurations anyway.

The chip many of us guess it to be can't be purchased retail at the price point BFL is offering so the theory is that they secured are leveraging a significant discount to retail price.

As far as sASIC, Cell ASIC, Custom ASIC, etc.  It doesn't fit.
MH/W is horrible (relatively speaking). 
The board has a JTAG and a flash loader neither of which are used with xASIC.

It's not an ASIC built for mining, but a CONFIGURABLE ASIC, like an array processor or a custom FPGA.
That's why MH/W is "horrible" - it's not a chip built specifically for mining.
 
And yes, many, if not most ASIC designers do put a JTAG interface on the ASIC, to facilitate in-circuit testing.
For instance, via JTAG one can set any output pin to any value, thus allowing early production tests, whether the chip was soldered correctly etc.

Well calling a custom FGPA an ASIC kinda defeat the entire purpose of using standardized terms.

ASIC = "application-specific integrated circuit"

A customizable programmable application specific integrated circuit is kinda an oxymoron wouldn't you say?

occam's razor says it is a Stratix III FPGA (my total guess would be a EP3SL150F780) purchased at huge discount to retail price because the Stratix III is EOL.

The voltage, power draw, dimensions, pin layout, package type, voltage, and board characteristics (1MB flash loader, JTAG header, etc) all match that hypothesis.

So assuming it is that chip, if mining becomes unprofitable and BFL release a development SDK, will the hardware be worth good money ?

I disagree. Everybody makes ASICs now. Almost nobody (except Intel and IBM) can afford to make a full-custom chip anymore. The full-custom chip has gone the way of the dodo. Thus, a Xilinx FPGA is an ASIC. An Altera FPGA is an ASIC. A custom BFL FPGA is an ASIC.
I'd still call an Intel CPU a full-custom chip. Also an IBM Power7 CPU.
AMD? Not so sure, and it shows.
Oracle/SUN CPUs? More like an ASIC (manufactured by TI) than full custom.

Full-custom: Optimized at the transistor level.
ASIC: Run through Synopsys DC and some back-end tools, but not optimized at the transistor level.

>purchased at a huge discount

::)

In books and movies, they call that "deus ex machina", i.e. some kind of wonder or act of god to resolve a problem in the plot, like a scientist being able to stop an impending alien attack with a computer virus which he uploads to the alien mother ship.

My theory does not require a deus ex machina.

Calling an FPGA an ASIC defeats the entire purpose of the definition.  Definitions exist for a reason.  
In related new I have a miner working with quantum computing*.  It's true.

* Quantum computing in this case doesn't refer to any commonly accepted definition of the word it refers HD 5970s.  Definitions? We don't need no stinking definitions.

Calling a FPGA and ASIC is asinine.  It is like deciding you are going to call floating point numbers, iinteger or the language the rest of the world knows as English, Spanish, or the period of time when the sun is down "daytime".

FPGA = Field Programmable Gate Array
ASIC = Application SPECIFIC Integrated Circuit.
The definitions are mutually exclusive.

Even if they weren't lets boil this down.  Your (accepted by nobody else on the planet) definition of an ASIC is so board as to include virtually all silicon chips?  Ok genius you honestly think it is a breakthrough that we "now" know that BFL uses Silicon chips.    Prior to that revelation I honestly thought they built their boards out of potatoes.   Thanks for that clarification.  What address should I tip you some coins.

A FPGA is a sub-category of an ASIC.
It's APPLICATION happens to be being a programmable chip.
What's so hard to understand about this?

A FPGA is not a full-custom chip because even large companies like Xilinx or Altera lack the financial resources to design full-custom chips. Not being a full-custom chip, it is an ASIC. Subcategory FPGA.
I hope this clarifies it.

No those are made up nonsense terms & definitions used by nobody except yourself. In the future if you wish to make up nonsense definitions it would be less confusing if applies them to new made up terms.

Like this:

If you tried to learn a little bit about how ASIC foundries like TSMC operate, where Xilinx and Altera and Nvidia, among others, have their chips manufactured, then you would know that each and every foundry customer has to follow a foundry-approved process to have their ASICs manufactured. These foundries are not interested all the back-and-forth that's involved in running full-custom chips through their foundries. If you own your own fab, like Intel does, different story. Don't try to cloud the issues, but educate yourself instead.

I agree.
A minor part of the silicon in each FPGA behaves like an ASIC (the interfaces used to program the FPGA for example are probably fixed gates). Every general purpose ASIC (ie Turing-complete CPU+RAM) can emulate FPGAs. So you could argue that there's a blurry line between the two (but you can for nearly every 2 arbitrary concepts).
The difference is the technologies used to build FPGAs and ASICs and their respective strength : the programmable part in most FPGAs are implemented with SRAM tech to get the most efficient silicon structure capable of hardware reconfiguration. Most ASICs only uses SRAM for memory (cache usually), the rest is a fixed gate logic structure. So to say that FPGAs are ASICs is like saying that the interface used to program them which my represent less than 1% of the silicon and be used only a couple of times in its life defines it instead of the 99% of the silicon used most of the time. You could argue that a CPU is a memory chip with more success (given the quantity of silicon dedicated to caches...).

I'll explain it once again:
A buddy of mine is an ASIC designer here in Silicon Valley.
When asked to implement an FPGA on a standard ASIC design flow, he could obviously do that, have some other people in his company implement and verify the physical back-end and then ship the design files off to TSMC or some other foundry.

A few months later, you receive your first sample ASIC, which implements an FPGA.

There's no secret, magic FPGA design flow at TSMC, just like there is no secret, magic source for Stratix III chips at 1/10th of the list price.

Meh, perhaps.

OTOH JTAG only uses four wires, so trying every permutation shouldn't take long.


It wasn't.  But the part is like $0.15 from digi-key and it's through-hole so soldering it is a walk in the park.  If you're afraid to solder down the header you can just use probe clips.

The packages aren't really standardized; each manufacturer has their own names for them.  The only thing that's quasi-standard is the ball pitch.  Also some have suggested that BFL is using an older Stratix device, which I'm sure DigiKey/Mouser no longer carry.  Finally, DigiKey+Mouser don't always carry every packaging style for every chip.

No way dude.  If that were true, they would produce power (http://www.miniscience.com/projects/potatoelectricity/) instead of guzzling it. :)

http://www.miniscience.com/projects/potatoelectricity/PotatoVolts.gif

Nice one D&T !


D&T is one of the most educated people around here. Your point is moot !

On another note, WHY are you all trying to find BFL's secret :D ?

Are you all in China ( no offence meant; just the location where all the computer equipment is made :P ) and trying to counterfeit BFL's design ???

Leave the unicorn alone ! It is meant to be "seekrit! neener neener!"

I would disagree... his point isn't moot at all, it's at best academic but largely irrelevant to the topic.  Unless you wish to keep discussing it, it's hardly moot.

You are confusing ASIC with IC. An ASIC has fixed-logic, an FPGA has programmable-logic. While they are both ICs, they are two very different kinds of ICs.

I hope bfl works out but to me it reeks of a long con.
Will keep buying up 2nd hand gpus until then :)

Yeah everything in the world is a long con, just because I said so. ::)

Hey, don't knock him.  If he's still buying GPU's, that means more BFL singles for the rest of us.  :p

herp derp - someone disagreed because they thaid tho  ::)
I guess you might not be familiar with long cons (or are simply blind fanboys for BFL).

Lets cover the basics:

Dubious company registration.
Next to no contact.
Outright lies regarding delivery times (and has continued to lie regarding delivery times for 6+ months).
Extremely few seen out in the wild (enough that you could simply pay someone for a false review to help out the long con).
0 information on chips used (this is the only thing that does not bother me).
Constant spamming of BFL.
The person assuring us its not a con has answered 0 questions of substance, instead selling you on the "I trust them, you should to".

As previously said - this is what a long con looks like.

1st option

Some user finally hits a to long to wait time, logs a complaint and BFL fob you off with emails.
BFL then simply start ignoring you or worse, stating that you are a scammer trying to get a free BFL.
The members claiming they have working BFL's start disappearing, those that dont visicously defend it insisting it is real with quotes like "HAHAHA more for me" and "I trusted them with 1 billion dollars, they are the real deal !" and "I lost all this weight in 2 weeks !!!".
Website keeps operating despite bad reviews hoping to scrape a few more suckers.

Lets hope this is not the case, but there is absolutely nothing to vouch for BFL currently. For their product or for their companies reliability.
This thread only served to highlight concerns and ease none.

2nd option

Another likely scenario IMHO is this company is not a con but is running afoul of several US laws, at a guess encryption limitations and most likely tax fraud.

3rd option

They are using chips they do not have a license for and would be sued should the parent company find out.
Or counterfeit chips that are not allowed inside the US (due to original creators copyright).

Happy Option:

BFL Hashes pure rainbows and runs on a perpetual motion engine.
6 month delays become shipping times of 3-14 days (website is updated to reflect the real delivery time).
Multiple people testing and confirming legitimacy.
Everyone is happy.

Mid ground option

They are severely under-budget and are accumulating funds to do a bulk fab.
Pending customers have no real expected time of manufacture and delivery.
Significant chance of waiting

I taught about the long con theory before and now...I just think that what happened was an horrible product launch. One of the worst next to the Xbox 360  ;D

Their product seems good, and I really think they're doing their best to make a nice business out of it. I'm still not interested until they fix all their launch mess, there's no way I'm waiting 12 weeks for something, but I'll probably check later on.

Me to buddy, I want to......


https://i.imgur.com/2FPVd.jpg

Option C:  You have no idea what you're talking about.

Seeing as I've been to their facility several times and talked extensively with a few BFL people, I would say all your explanations are pure bullshit and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Jealousy causes him to come up as to why the BFL is bad. Probably can't afford one or too scared to order one, and thus envies people who can afford and order.

mem, I might agree with you if there was a good reason for them to be operating a long con.  But there's just not.

They have the most demand of ANY miner manufacturer right now, and that's not going to change for a long time.  They have a really cheap product for how much MH/s it runs.  Because demand is so high, they would likely make less money by conning everyone instead of just continuing to provide the product.  Not to mention, a multi-million dollar con would mean they'd definitely be on the run from the law and some serious investigators.  I doubt that's the position they want to be in...

Anyway, you're obviously welcome to think whatever you like, and if we all get scammed, you can point your finger and say "told ya so!"

Hey Inaba,  since you have been there I was wondering if it struck you that this was a side job to most of them (so not putting in at least 40 a week)?

Maybe that would explain some of the tardiness.

I think this is a valid assumption.  The fact is that their product works.  I'm guessing they had no expectation that demand would be this great.  We don't know their profit margin, but I believe it would be MUCH more lucrative for them to grow their business as bitcoin gains traction.  I'd go so far as to say their revenue could be in the millions next year if they continue to deliver their products, even if they are late.  I appears to have worked out well for them so far, now they just need to hire a few more people to answer emails and provide tech support.

I must admit that I am still suspicious of this particular thread.  Anyone who bothered to look at the OPs post history can see that they registered a few weeks before posting, and I find it odd that someone would just book a flight for the hell of it because they just decided to buy 100k worth of bitcoin mining equipment after tinkering with some GPU miners for a short while.

I found out about Bitcoin in early March, 2 days later I found this forum, another 3 days later I placed an order for Butterfly Single, and 2 weeks later ordered MiniRig. Nothing suspicions.

I wasn't tinkering with gpu miners for a while, I was following bitcoin from the start. I'm not some random guy who stumbled upon bitcoin, I invested more money on more crazy things before.

You also posted that you lost $10k trading and used to to justify the risk of dropping $15k because you have "guts".  ;)

My assumptions are based on my own standard for what is questionable due diligence, but that varies and this is just my opinion.  Deep pockets enable you to take bigger risks.



Fair enough, I'm not making any accusations, just voicing my suspicions.  As a fellow miner I do hope it all works out for you.

Thank you :)

It's not a side job, at least for the people I have met.  But the demand far exceeds anything they were expecting, I think.  That, coupled with the unusual requirements mining bitcoins puts on an FPGA design accounts for most of the problems people have seen so far.  There is a lot of labor that goes into assembling a single, to include the testing they do.  It's a fairly labor intensive process at this point - it will probably be streamlined at some point, but there's still the learning curve and then you throw in development of the Rigbox and a couple other bitcoin projects and there's only so much time in a day. 

Like I said in the other thread, there are far more orders that I personally have knowledge of than are reported on these forums.  That does not include anything I am not privy to, which is likely quite a bit.  I just speak from experience talking to a number of people who have placed orders that either aren't on the forum at all or do not post and only lurk. 

Are they working on other things?!??  Where's my popcorn?  I demand you give us the juicy dirt Inaba!   :) :D ;D :D ;)

How many orders (and qtys in those orders) do you know of that aren't on the forum?

At least 100 singles and 7 mini rigs.

Thanks.  ;)

Do they now? Has been 12 weeks for me already...

Please make an epic thread about it when you win, will you? Thanks! ::)

Throw some of that cash to the OpenBitASIC project.

I remember seeing that conversation when it happened and I'm not convinced he will win (but I hope you do D&T!!).  Even if he hasn't shown his receipt / order # to anyone at all, it is still fairly obvious when he made the order.  My guess is that it would not be hard at all to figure out who he is based on that timeslot and bump his order up a few weeks. 

Isn't it just a shameful lie? Reading their faq few weeks ago I encountered this note the "please". Isn't it like they are asking me to contact them? So I did asked simple question and haven't heard back from them since (not an autoresponder even).

So you saying they are trying to answer every question, when they are not even responding questions they ask for is giving me doubts about your story.

*** Someone lock this thread please it is getting very stale with BFL haters and people who envy people who have ordered from BFL.

When I first decided to buy, I asked a question about singles, they answered mine after one day, then I asked a couple more and they also answered all my questions, then I decided to visit them and see it for myself before I buy, they helped me and in their busy time showed me around and answered more questions, so yes they are answering.

and I wasn't asking questions like, "are you real" or "how can I make sure you don't steal my money" , I was asking about lead time, availibility and unit dimensions, payment methods etc, if you ask them a question a customer might ask I'm sure they will be happy to answer you but if you ask them a question like "why does bla bla , when bla bla is bla bla so why should I bla bla" , I don't think they'll waste their time :)

I asked them about problems shipping to my country, cause they asked to "please" contact us on this question. No reply after weeks. Very impolite and discouraging.

They've always been very responsive with me.  Maybe try calling them instead.  A VoIP service would avoid the international rates.
http://www.butterflylabs.com/contact - bottom-right shows their phone number.

My experience is, that they replied in 3 days to my technical question. And it was after ordering  ;D
Now I'm just eagerly waiting  :)

If your questions are as smart as your interpretation of the word "please" on their website then it's no wonder they didn't reply to you.

You're trying to insult the guy smarts after he posted the topic of his unanswered email like his question is so insignificant he was stupid to have asked it... That shows stupid you are, his question might not be of any significance to you but it does to him, and not having a question you believe important answered reduces the trust a customer would have with a busines. There are no bad questions, there are badly worded questions. Only the real fool accepts everything without questioning it.

read his posts:

I asked them about problems shipping to my country, cause they asked to "please" contact us on this question. No reply after weeks. Very impolite and discouraging.

note the "please". Isn't it like they are asking me to contact them? So I did asked simple question and haven't heard back from them since (not an autoresponder even).

He says he sent a simple question because he thought BFL is begging him to ask them something.
I run my own internet business and it is very evident when you are contacted by a customer and when you are contacted by a time waster.
Replying to time wasters is very draining.

Dude, please try to find word "beg" in any form in my post. Also, try reading their FAQ and notice there is no links where I can check if BFL single banned from my country, instead there is "please contact" there, so I did contacted, as they asked (you can tell "beg" from "ask", do you?). No response. Not very encouraging to send them money if they are as responsive as with this simple question.

How exactly can you confirm this ?

Are we really expected to have unaccountable forum members vouchsafe a company, lol.
I know a few religions that would love to have someone like yourself door knocking, same aggressive blind faith and substance lacking arguments are used ;)


Wow that sounds like another story I have heard:
"really! i walked into the desert and a burning bush TALKED TO ME!"

No no no my blind zealot, you are utterly full of shit.
You are literally screeching insults at people for not blindly trusting you and a company that has numerous questions surrounding it.

Comprehend what "The burden of proof" is and deal with it, Id advise the same to BFL.

Perhaps you are a religious fundamentalist, so I say this to you:
I have no wish for debates based on beliefs, give me substance or STFU.

Mem, if you don't want to believe what he says, that's fine.  That's your choice, entirely.  The rest of us, however, do not need scientific proof to believe that they are a legitimate company.  At some point, "good enough" comes into play...

Wow - I have some bridges to sell you buddy :)
This is each individuals choice, if are to base your decision on a "trust me" so be it.

When I clicked on this thread, like most others I was hoping for more substance than "I spent $$$ and trust them you should too".

We have a few key members here adamant that it is legit (and I hope it is) but the same members absolutely refuse to provide any substantial evidence.

BFL at this point in time is completely unverified with some rather dodgy history, ie lying about delivery times for over 6 months and still continuing to do so.

There is no certainty, it is purely a leap of faith - its disappointing to see that people in this thread cannot grasp that others will not blindly follow simply because they believe (*gasp* free thinking individuals !!!).

This thread is here for people to ask any questions from someone who has been to BFL, it seems when people actually do ask questions they are just short of attacked and riddiculed for not having blind faith.




I dont have faith, but I do have hope. Im hoping for substance.

Seriously Mem... what the fuck are you talking about?  If my credibility is not good enough, then what, exactly, is? 

I was doing the bitcoin thing long before BFL was even an idea.  I created one of the earlier pools from scratch and have run it honestly and openly from day one.  Thousands of people have trusted me with tens of thousands of bitcoins, and somehow you, with 104 posts, have more credibility to make pronouncements about a subject you apparently know little to nothing about?

On the other hand, we have me, who is an established member of the forums, a top pool operator and regular contributor here who has not only spoken to several individuals at BFL by email, phone and in person, but has also worked with BFL to debug early revs of the single, before anyone even believed it exists telling you what I've seen, etc...

Then, on top of that, we have BFL, who has demonstrated a viable product and shipped hundreds of units... all of this someone in your little mind qualifies as "Completely unverified with some rather dodgy history?"  Seriously?  What. The. Fuck.  What more do you want, exactly?  Jesus to tapdance into your room one night, ass rape you, and tell you that BFL is real and shipping a product?  I'm curious... seriously.  What is adequate for you?

You need to go back and reassess not only yourself, but also your definitions of "certainty," "leap of faith," and "completely."  Those words mean things, and the definitions you've assigned to them exist solely in your head and are not shared by the rest of the world.  That makes you the one who's "completely" wrong.

People like you have tried to paint me with the fanboy brush in the past, and it's just as ludicrous now as it was then.  I am no fanboy, I tell you exactly what I see and know from first hand experience.  If I'm unsure of something, I've said so.  If I disagree with something, I've said so.  But the thing is, my experience in both software and hardware development, coupled with the fact that I have owned and run a number of small businesses in the past gives me an apparently unique perspective compared to 99.9% of the people who post here - I know what it's like to start up a business.  I know what it's like to deal with customers, especially when you are short staffed. I also know what it's like to design a product from the ground up.  All the "dodgy" things you bitch about or try to hang your hat on are normal parts of running an unestablished business.  Some of them are errors, some of them are problems, that is true... but these types of things happen to nearly every business that has wild success in the beginning without expecting it.  Hell, these things happen to just about any business in the beginning. 

You know nothing.  Stop typing until you learn at least some basic facts, because it's clear you have none.

Calm down children, for starters not throwing e-tantrums when your baseless claims are questioned is a good way to get some credibility.



No, please do not attempt to side step this argument.
You do not have proof, you may or may not have some credibility with the community in certain areas. This does not make your word gospel.


A unit being demonstrated on a video for a group of people known to the community.
Again you do not seem to understand the difference being a logical conclusion and faith.


I challenge you to prove any flaws in my use of the definitions instead of throwing this childish tantrum.

Good for you, is there some kind of award you are expecting ?

I have also been involved in start ups and successfully started my own business and ran it for 5 years before selling to take an easier career path. This should have 0 weight on my argument as I do not know you personally so you would be required to have a leap of faith in my claims.

Im certain many forum members have also had similar success or do software engineering (me) or hardware engineering etc etc etc.
Spouting these claims without proof to boost your authority again just seems childish and immature.

Blatantly lying and continuing to lie about expected delivery times for over 6 months is not BAU for any respectable company. If you truly were a professional you would know this. Contracts are terminated in my field for much less.


I challenge you to do 2 things:

1) produce 1 fact regarding BFL that can be verified and carries some weight.

2) Grow the fuck up, stop screeching and swearing on the forums because people dared to question your claims. Frankly any respect you may have earned from me is lost due to the extremely childish and unprofessional way you handle yourself.
I wouldnt enter into business with someone that throws tantrums when people do not blindly agree with their unfounded claims.

3rd optional challenge:

3) Attempt a civil debate, respond with founded claims or STFU. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the definition of a debate so you know  to keep your assumptions out if it.

Good day sir.

The only one making baseless claims here is you, sparky.  You're the one throwing a tantrum because BFL won't ship you a unit in a week.


You are the one sidestepping the argument.  You next quote proves as much.


Been done several times.  Gigavps posted a video. I believe at least one other person did.  I have a good number of units running in my basement as do hundreds of other people.  What, exactly, qualifies as a "group of people" and why does it need to be a "group?"

Stop sidestepping the issue.  What proof is adequate?  I had assumed that it would go without saying that the proof you require hadn't already been provided numerous times, but apparently you're too stupid to figure that fact out, so I will spell it out for you:  What is adequate proof that has not already been provided in the past?


No problem, hambone, here you:

"certainty" - definition: Without a doubt.  Unquestionable.  Unable to be disputed. 

Lets looks at your contextual use of the word:


It is indisputable that BFL has produced a product that hashes ~800 MH/s at ~80w.  It is indisputable that BFL has shipped many of these units.  It is indisputable, without a a doubt and completely unquestionable that these units exist in the real world, operate and are being sold.  Ergo, your use of the word and by extension your definition of the word is wrong. 

"leap of faith": Definition - accept a premise without evidence or confirmation.

Let's look at your contextual use of the phrase:


Since we have already established that these devices exist, that they are being sold and that they perform as currently advertised it can not be a "leap of faith" since there is evidence and confirmation.  Ergo, your use of the phrase, and by extension your definition of the phrase is wrong.

"completely" - Definition - Totally, utterly, wholly, fully, entirely.

Let's look at your contextual use of the word:


Since we have already established that these devices exist, and we have already established that people have visited the offices, since we have already established that many, many people have been in communications with BFL, since we have already established that these devices have been sold and shipped, the company is at least partially verified (most would say it is completely verified, but lets not split hairs.)  Ergo, your use of the word and by extension your definition of the word is completely and utterly (wholly if you will) wrong.

So there you have it, hambone.  You are certainly wrong; Completely and utterly.  In a word, you sir are an idiot.


Yes, the award I was expecting was for you to be able to understand basic communication of the fact that my experience in the very subject being discussed puts me in a unique position to assess performance of the subject at hand.  Apparently I thought too highly of your cognitive skills.


You are absolutely correct. But the difference between me and you is I have the respect, history and track record with this community and of this community to allow me to make a claim that carries some weight simply due to my credibility within this context.  You, on the other hand, have none of the above, yet you are making claims and pronouncements like you have some authority in the matter, when you have neither the history or track record to back it up, nor have you actually ever communicated with or visited BFL.  Basically you have nothing to back up your claims, whereas I have both the historical record of my activities here and the photographic and physical evidence of my visits to BFL.


Really?  So how is one suppose to establish that they are an authority in a particular subject area?  Do tell, I am all ears.  You've proven to be so intelligent so far, I'm sure you'll have a gem here, too.


That's all you've got?  They miss their shipping times?  Seriously, that's it?  I've never defended their shipping estimates and I agree that they are, as currently performed, out of line.  However, that does not make them "completely unverified" nor does engender "no certainly, purely a leap of faith."  Generally, the majority of the people who have orders in are aware that there's the likely possibility of not getting their unit in six weeks, but they all believe they will eventually get it (otherwise why would they order?) - so your argument completely falls apart at this point (like it wasn't already a train wreck to begin with, I'm being generous... cause I'm magnanimous like that, yo.). 

So your entire diatribe is because they miss their ship dates (and continue to miss them) - like I said, the words you use do not mean what everyone else agrees they mean.  They only have meaning in your head.


Done.


Respect from a troll like you is pretty low on my priority list.  Trust me, I won't lose any sleep over it.  I'm not "screeching", though I am swearing... but only because I am absolutely incredulous that someone can be as ignorant as you and still able to use the internet.  Seriously, I wonder how you are able to even find the on switch on your computer, since it's questionable that you can even feed yourself or interact with society in a meaningful manner - you apparently have a worldview that is not shared by anyone else, so how do you function within society when your view contradicts that of everyone around you?  It is truly a mystery.


And I wouldn't enter into business with someone who is unable to even understand basic English.


I suggest you do the same, since you can't follow your own advice. 

tl;dr:  Sorry for the wall of text, but I figure I'd respond in kind to your stupidity.  What you mistake for "screeching " and a "tantrum" is the fact that I type 120wpm and can whip off a 1500 word missive in the time it takes most people to type a few sentences. The bottom line is, your entire argument is based around the fact that BFL misses their shipping date and you throw around claims and pronouncements that are just plain lies, all hinging solely on the fact that they have not historically actually shipped in 6 weeks.  That is literally your entire argument and it is incredibly flimsy, disingenuous and basically just a bunch of lies.

Ok so you have back stepping from an absolute to almost.
The more devices out in the wild at different locations the less likely it is to be a long con.

Its a shame I had to wade through so many of your tantrums to get to something resembling a discussion.


Opps back to being a child again, this is disappointing.
Let me reiterate that point - your claims mean nothing without proof and as you cannot prove them to me or the people requesting it you should stop putting them forward. Maybe you are just to stupid and or arrogant to have structured conversation and or debate.

You do not, you have deluded yourself into thinking you do.
Anyway Its not my place to argue with your ego, but consider this.

You get respect - you dont run around like a child demanding it and telling people you have it.
"if" you had any, it would be obvious but carry on, this is extremely entertaining if nothing else.

They are called citations, extensively used in all fields to verify authority on the subject matter - wikipedia would be the best example if you need some study matter.


Yes they lied and are continuing to lie to clients. I and all adults in the business world have a problem with a company that does this.




My argument and stance  that they lie to clients is as rock solid as ever - you even agreed with it.
My argument has substance and is easy to verify by checking their website.

Poor attempt to side step the core point, but this is what id expect from you now.


Pathetic, seriously grow up. I wont debate definitions with a child that insists on re-interpreting every argument presented so they can ignore  the core (and very obvious issue). The dictionary agrees with me and an egotistical swearing tantrum throwing forum member disagrees - I wont lose any sleep.

Must of missed that 1 fact inside your wall of crys.

Again we disagree on definitions. If you are an adult you should be embarassed by the lack of self control, composure and maturity you demonstrate.

I am a Senior Unix Systems Administrator for ~14 years now. I can verify this with anyone that requires my services.
Again, more substance less tantrums please.

Truly childish - substance or stfu please.

Dude, really ? you are going to stoop the the level of "No you shut up" when asked to be civil.
You dont see me swearing, ranting, calling bullshit, insulting etc - All I have done is disagree.

Ahh more insults, its a good last resort when you are stuck arguing your beliefs vs critical thinking.

Unlike BFL I have not lied in this entire discussion.
You have constantly lied, purposefully misinterpreted and side stepped. You are either an idiot or are involved in a long con.

I thought you had calmed down but it seems you are mentally incapable of being challenged and handling it in a civil and mature fashion. Id suggest seeking help on that as it will severely impact any future you may have as a business owner.

I was hoping you may have finally put out something more substantial but alas - just a wall of crys.

I shall continue waiting to see if more people receive and confirm them as working as said, the more out in the wild being demonstrated the more unlikely it is to be a con.

I dont want to argue back and forth unless we are making progress but we are not.

I can tell you will scream and screech down anyone that dares question the almighty BFL - So there is no point, it would be like arguing the existence of God with a fanatic.

You seem to think its perfectly fine for a company to lie to clients repeatedly and consistently - I and many many others do not.

You think you are a big deal on teh scene, that you have credibility and deserve and have respect ..... LOL  :P (not for the entire scene my deluded idiot, but quite possibly for the section you service).

I want BFL to be real and not a con - still waiting to see, Im sorry that a random dickheads assurance is not enough for myself.

If BFL wanted me and all others to stop questioning their claims now, the easiest way would be to ship a BFL as a review unit to a credible site, eg tomshardware.

Good luck, I hope you have managed to calm down and please see a shrink about your inability to handle confrontations.

Like I said, you're welcome to believe what you want to believe.  When I see 50 different people posting on the forum that they have received their BFL miners, along with photos and videos of the miners, as well as talking to Sonny on the phone myself, it is more than enough "proof" for me.  If it's not enough for you, that's fine.  Keep believing that they are a long con.  I'll let you know when I get my miners.  ;)

Wow,someone's a hater :D

I believe in BFL,guess I'm next on the list :P

Im Not a hater, just a skeptic :) but label me whatever you want to console your wounded feelings.
It certainly seems to be how other people here handle disagreement.

If I have said or done something to indicate i "hate" BFL as opposed to being skeptical of their company then I am sorry that was not the intention nor do I remember making any such statements.

Id love to see them churning out BFL's, I'll be ordering 10 if/when they start shipping in a reasonable time frame.

Please do let me know, especially the delay in shipping.

I did not state "it is" a long con, just that it is quite possible. Being familiar with large scale scams in my industry I can say  that ~50 people is an extremely easy number to fake (but getting more and more unlikely given the histories of the posters).

So as I said (people seem to love restating my intentions for some reason) I shall hold off until satisfied and I shall continue to voice any concerns I may have.

If Inaba decides to have a psychotic break each time he sees an concern or opinion he doesn't care for - again that is his choice to do so, though given his inability to conduct himself maturely I wont bother engaging.  He is an completely angry fool that is for certain (seriously what but hurt child even bothers trying to twist these definitions ffs).
Worse he does not argue at face value but twists statements to suite his retorts which has the result of 0 productivity when attempting to resolve disputes.
Id imagine you would  need an umbrella and earplugs to argue with him in person   :P

The problem is, you're talking out of your ass.  You may not realize it, but the rest of us do.

ssssh my butt hurt little friend, if you want to argue with the adults you need to state your case.
The short version: Substance & civility - Share your opinions but dont use them as your argument base ;)

Sounds like someone is also "spoiled".I want what I want & I want it now.

Sometimes the world dosen't give us what we want,when we want it,it's called Patience.

BTW,don't bother with BFL,they ARE a scam.(I need time to get my orders before he does ;))

Keep posting,I'm bored ;D

my 2 cents:

BFL credibility for the person who visited the BFL offices and for those whom that person tells stories are 2 very different matters. Especially if those who visit keep telling almost nothing about what they've seen.

Besides the shipping date lies there is also:
- sanded markings on chips, while BFL said they are using custom built chips(?). It won't qualify as lie but still does not add to credibility.
- "monte carlo calculation support", which is announced, but you can't use it without paying unknown amount to butterfly for "custom solution"
- bad links on drivers page

Also. Lets believe forum members who got BFL singles or were in the office. What is confirmed from these 2 threads:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77796.0;all
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76916.0;all

43 singles shipped
232 ordered

7 mini rigs ordered

That is about $246000 received by BFL.

With only 43 singles shipped that gives very wide possibilities for scam. Even if each single shipped costs BFL $3000 to build and ship, they still have about $117000 to run with. That is only from the numbers known on this forums. If they have proportionally bigger order list and shipped singles amount they will have even more. I've heard of scams done for much lesser amounts then $100000.

Regarding the office full of singles and big amounts shipped. Having 100 singles in office and doing packaging to show they ship a lot for one of half dozen ppl who visited BFL (and later unpackaging them) is not a big issue really.

For those who like to jump on "infidels" - please note I am not saying BFL doing what described above, just point out that there is POSSIBILITY for them to be scam even with all eyewitnesses and shipped units.

Well spoiled is relative, I say no you say yes
But 100% correct on the rest ;)


Sometimes people wait the time they were told and get annoyed when the actual time for delivery is 2-3x.
This is called a reasonable complaint.  ;D

So true, I felt this was implied in my previous posts but hopefully this clears up the confusion inba and other pro BFL supporters have regarding my own doubts and those raised by many others.

You made very good points, hopefully its better received :)

what a maroon .... ignore

Senior UNIX Administrator for 14 years my ass. You're incredibly immature for that title and length of time, that's for sure.

That'd make you about, what, atleast 34 years old?
Yet you act like an immature teenager. Not to mention your avatar and profile.

Just because you installed Ubuntu on your Daddy's PC a few years ago doesn't make you a "senior UNIX administrator"..

Grow up, or stop lying. It's pathetic.

Basic laws of human stupidity, by Carlo M. Cipolla


1. Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.

Number of stupid people is always higher than we assume.

2.  The probability that a certain person will be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.

Stupidity has no bounds every race, gender, age and social group has their own share of stupid people.

3. A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.

This one is the most important one, a criminal or a bandit gains by making other people loose things but stupid people has no gain or direction in their actions.


mem , you should read the third one carefully :)

Mem, you are laughable.  You are also a troll.  You are not a 14+ year linux administrator.  If you are, you are a poor one that no company should hire.  

Its pointless to debate with you.  I gave you everything you asked for, but you ignored every single point, or if you did address it, you willfully misinterpreted what I wrote (or am I giving you too much credit, yet again, and it's not willful, just plain stupid misinterpretation?  You seem to be unable to understand basic concepts of daily life.).

Regardless, as you've already surmised I'm sure, this discussion with you is at an end.  No one agrees with you.  Virtually everyone agrees that you are an idiot.

Bring something of substance to this discussion before you post again.  I know you won't heed this request, because you are incapable of not posting lies, innuendo and falsehoods, but I figure I'd throw it out there.  

Here is your argument:  

"They miss their shipping dates, LOL!!!!11!! OMG!!!11!! it's a scam! !!  They are conning you cause they say 4 - 6 weeks and it takes longer!!!1!!! OMG OMG OMG!!!!"  

Do you have something more than that?  If you can bring something more, then maybe we can have a discussion, but until you are able to present your side of the argument with something more than that, you only deserve childish responses.  I suspect you are a child, which would explain your posts, but even if you are 34+, mentally you are challenged.

BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Read that entire thread hoping to see some more info on the chip.

Has anyone probbed one yet?

Yes, see the other thread for more info.

You'll have to forgive me, I've not read any of the BFL thread for a few months. Which thread might that be, m8?

cheers

Discuss the other issues raised please or ignore (as you seem inclined to do so) them and be a child.
Such a shame you are unable to defend a product you endorse in a professional manner, hopefully BFL will find a decent rep in the future :)

I think for now the best course is to sit and wait, lets hope toms hardware or someone with a real reputation gives them a review. The results will speak for themselves once/if shipping speeds up and we have more users in the wild.

Because they couldn't pay off Tom's Hardware just as easily (if not moreso) than 50 forum members?   ::)  I mean, come on, if you want to go all conspiracy theory on us, at least go full board!

I already defended it. You were unable to bring anything more to the table beyond the shipping date.  You also seem to be under the mistaken impression i have some professional connection to BFL. I do not. They dont pay me or otherwise compensate me for telling the truth.

So unless you have something more, we have definitively shown you have no idea what you are talking about. GTG

What exactly is the defence for lying about the shipping dates, Im curious.
Short and succinct would nice if you can manage it.

Reading!  A valuable skill!  Learn it.

Don't forget reading comprehension.  It's entirely necessary to the skill of being able to read.

Come on dude. 1st part of quotation is either lie or inability to read / understand what is written, cause at least I see that mem is reasonable and agree with his doubts, so "no one" is plain wrong (or dont you know meaning of "no one"?).
2nd part is an argument is good for pre-school kids. Strange kids supporting you and miserably barking at mem don't give mem less credibility or his opposition less.

Please, calm down and stop this already. Your insults and inability to answer directly looks really bad. Even mem who tried to talk politely at first was so embarassed by your style that started returning insults.

Inaba, please, ignore this POS. I have got used to harvest some very useful info from your posts. Reading how you are trying to put some wisdom inside a trash can is very painful for me and a big waist of time.

Please, keep your energy for EclipseMC's further development and more awesome ideas for Bitcoin community.

Most of us really appreciate what you have done so far, are proud for you being a part of this community.

Cheers.

Great analogy. Very pertinent.

Also, here is a video:
http://vimeo.com/41028028

Are you mem's sock puppet?  Inability to answer WHAT directly?  I've answered every single question directly.  Mem is the only one that seems incapable of answer any question with something other than "L0lers!  They don't ship in 6 weeks!  OMG!  FAIL!!!1!!"

I've seen your conduct in this thread. I see your avatar and the text underneath.  I'd be hard pressed to consider you an adult.  Your points have been discredited and your arguments proved invalid.  Furthermore, arguing is for the weak minded and those incapable of forming and presenting rational thought.  A proper adult would debate.  Feel free to discredit what I've said and continue acting like a child.  Inaba's right, and while I know how hard it is to debate someone who calls out your fallacies and false arguments, it doesn't do you justice to continue acting the way you do.

Go speak in that manner with someone else.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/265px-As_The_World_Turns_2009_logo.png

  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Wheres my popcorn & soda :D

Angry neighborhood bastard mod here.

So, anyone see those new quad FPGA boards ZTEX has? ;)

Been looking at em ;)

Still hoping for BFL to speed up shipping,if not I may grab a few Quads instead.

Do they come with a powersupply?? It seems from info on thier website that they may not :(

They don't I don't think. Then again, thats 38 watts. I don't think I'd like 38 watts going through a barrel plug.

Don't the BFL miners push 82 watts through a barrel plug?

Must be beefier ones then.

He isnt my sockpuppet but it speaks volumes about your paranoia and insecurity that you assume this.

Popcorn on standby for more of Inaba's epic e-tantrums and wall of crys.

His insults dont phase me, before being a unix sysadmin I ground out the helpdesk dealing with frustrated idiots screeching at me for their own ignorance. You learn to sift through the teeth gnashing to look for substance so you can progress the call. Pretty much the exact same scenario here, ignore 90% of his posts as its just insults, childish tantrums (some adults never learn to manage their own feelings unfortunately), mirroring argument points and mocking people for not believing his argument at face value. So I sift through his hysterics and try to get to the 10% thats actually a valid argument (if any at all).

Good luck to BFL and those that have sunk money into it, I will be investing win the Merrick6 platform for my first 10, the company behind it has a good existing reputation and is being very direct about expected development and shipping times.

I will continue to monitor, raise questions and most importantly ask for citations - Im here to stay when it comes to btc and btc mining (also gambling ;) ) so Im always on the lookout for the next best thing.
Lets hope it really is just a bad product launch thats being made worse by rabid fanboys like inaba.

Ahh, it becomes clear now.  You are here to make yourself feel better about placing an order for a different device.  It's called "buyers remorse," look it up.  Makes sense why you spouted a bunch of misinformation, outright falsehoods and were (and still are, presumably) unable to answer even a single question posed to you with regards to your claims. Seriously, answer just one of the questions posed to you so far.  Just one... go on, I dare ya.

So lets recap your argument:


1. Legitimate complaint
2. Outright lie
3. Legitimate complaint
4. Outright lie
5. Immaterial, they are under no obligation to tell you.
6. Outright lie
7. Outright lie

So out of 7 claims, 4 are outright lies, 2 are legitimate and 1 is irrelevant.  You have, apparently, two beefs. 1 the shipping date, which you have harped on incessently.  And two, the "dubious company registration."  I'm not sure how that exactly effects hardware production, but hey, it is a fact and you brought it up, so you can have it.

You then whined my statement that I confirmed the existence of more people owrking at BFL than just Sonny and Ninja Lady.  You called me several names as well as hurled a bunch of insults.  You started out being an asshole and now you are whining because I give back to you in kind? Heh...  Anyway, in response to your whining, I asked you what would be acceptable confirmation.  You failed to answer, but instead chose to continue to insult me.

Then two posts later, you make the claim (which you continue to spew, I presume in the hopes that people will start to believe it) that:


Even though you can't seem to answer what would constitute substantial evidence.  I again ask you what would be good enough for your delicate sensibilities, but again you failed to answer.

You then proceed to produce a wall of text + quotes trying to pick apart my post line by line, since you apparently can't actually address the topics in the post, instead you start typing unrelated and seemingly random responses to lines of text.  One of the gems was this:


To which I responded that it's already been done.  Oopsie on your part there, so you completely ignore this subsequently.

You then go on to "challenge me to do 2 things." 


Which I then proceed to provide you with your #1 challenge, which is difficult, since you never really answered what would "carry some weight." 

Your #2 challenge is actually an insult, not really a challenge.

Your #3 challenge is just a rehash of #2.  All the while, you conveniently ignore the fact that it was you who started the uncivil communication.

I then ask you yet AGAIN, what is adequate proof.  You yet AGAIN fail to answer.

You then state that my claims mean nothing without proof.  Yet you can't seem to articulate what, exactly, that proof would be.  You then go on to spout out more names and insults.

You then ask for "citations" when I ask you how someone is suppose to establish that they are an authority in a particular subject area.  You seem to fail to understand exactly what a citation is, so this argument falls flat and is subsequently ignored by you.

This is where you start to repeatedly harp on the "They lied about shipping times" mantra you are so fond of.  You restate it several times amidst your name calling and insults and your self aggrandization about how you are an awesome Senior Unix Systems Administrator for ~14 years and that you can "verify this with anyone that requires my services."  Which is funny, because a few lines up, you were just saying how this is meaningless and it requires "citations" to be legitimate.  But I  understand, when I say it, it's meaningless, but when you do it, it carries weight.

Then we have a wonderful gem:


A lie about lying!  Totally Meta Dude!  Far out.

And we have more insults and avoiding any of the questions for the rest of your posts.  Which brings us here.  I hope this recap has helped you understand why you have zero credibility and why you look so stupid.  I suspect it does not, but I had fun going over it again, so I don't really care. :)

Good luck to you.  Next time you try to troll a thread, at least have something of substance to spread, instead of ignoring, virtually every single question posed to you.  You just look stupid otherwise.  Maybe you'll use this as a learning lesson, but I doubt it.  

PS - Go look up the definition of "assume."  Once again, you are using a word incorrectly.

Hey Inaba,He's just trying to increase his post count as fast as he can,he just joined april 4th  ;D

damn you got me :P

Inaba, offer something new or keep rephrasing your tired argument.

Mem, shut the fuck up and stop spamming this thread.

No photos - no sense mean, even they confirm that you'd was in their office.

You're right. I did.  Go on, keep avoiding every single point and failing to answer any question posed to you.


I'm not sure what this means.


Yeah, I kind of figured that, looking back at his post history.  It's mostly a bunch of useless posts. I suspect a scam post at some point in the marketplace from him.

Inaba, ok.

From:  [ DO NOT POST SESC LINKS ] DO NOT POST SESC LINKS [/url]



From:  [ DO NOT POST SESC LINKS ] DO NOT POST SESC LINKS [/url]

I see.

+1

says the 2 spamming the thread with insults and 0 contribution to discussion.
Damn kids, when you grow up think back to this time you were unable to discuss a subject with someone who held differing views.

Alright, angry bastard mod here. Mem, shut the fuck up and stop spamming this thread.

OK Angry bastard mod, are we to assume that a thread saying "ask me anything about BFL" is in fact not open to questions but tirades of tantrums and insults like Inaba's is fine ?

I have been fair and polite and simply started with airing questions others also have.

Your avatar image is trollgrin.jpg. What do you expect?

I swapped it after inaba's 3rd epic wall of crys as since i was being labelled as such and much worse (but my posts had no troll's to them).
the avatar coolface.jpg is me trolling, not the posts. Regardless changing Meow.

Riiiight..  As I've already amply demonstrated, you started out with insults and name calling, I just responded in kind.  But what can you expect, you've already lied multiple times, why not now?   Your credibility is already shot man, give it up.  You just go on ignoring everything directed at you, sport.  Keep on whining how I am so mean to you, because you know... people care.  Really, they do.  They respect you and admire you.

"I've been polite" hahahaha

Let me guess, you just spent 30min ninja editing your posts removing the swearing, insults and rants.
Mods can confirm that anyway - if they really care about it.

edit: confirmed inaba has now stopped to ninja edits. edit - skimmed the posts and came to incorrect conclusion apparently.

Adding him to my ignore list - hopefully that will end this tirades get threads back on track (not that this thread answered a single question about BFL).

What are you talking about?  I haven't edited any of my posts, I'm happy for a mod to confirm that.  What did you go back and re-read the bullshit you wrote and realize you're an idiot now?  One can only hope...

I will, however, just leave this here, so we can be sure you don't go back and delete/edit all your posts... because that's exactly what I predict next from you.

By all means, please tell me how/what I've "ninja edited."  Any by all means, please have a mod confirm that I have not done so... will be nice to add another tick mark to the things Mem has lied about. 

http://communityhosting.net/ih/images/memdouipi.png

mem is a classic troll .... don't feed the trolls

Yeah, I know... I just like poking at them with sticks.  I'll stop when I get bored or a mod gets uppity. :)  Contrary to his belief, I have no anger when I post stuff like that; I just enjoy ranting.  It's a guilty pleasure of mine.  I used to have some epic rants back in the day... the stuff I do now is pretty mild in comparison.

Jesus Christ, don't make me turn this thread around.

Oh hey, look at that.  If you change your theme to the default SMF theme, you can see when people last edited posts. 

Just one more lie of Mem's brought into the light.  Keep diggin' Mem, keep diggin'.

I assumed and was mistaken, well 1st time for everything I guess. Honestly I try to skim over any post Inaba makes due the hysterics, swearing and ridiculous amounts of insults.
I assume the "first insult" he took offence (and triggered his tantrum) was about the quality of movies Hollywood produces, got his panties in a twist and it was on from then on. It was just a passing joke, unfortunately he cannot take one it seems.
To clarify - the joke about hollywood was just that, not a targeted insult Inaba.

I can see from that you got out of sorts and took my next post to be an attack, its an incorrect assumption but I can see how you got frustrated and ended up there.

Best for myself to leave Inaba ignored, I (and many others) are sick of his inability to restrain his emotions when we are trying to have a civil discussion.

Lets get this thread get back to answering/(or not) any questions about BFL and move the focus away from Inaba's and myselfs public lovers tiff.

Nice back peddle there, sparky.  You keep getting caught in lies and then back peddling again and again.  Here, lets expose another one of your lies you just made:


Not a targeted insult, huh?  Riiight....  Lie!

Here's my next post:


Did you get butthurt cause I said "fuck" when I asked you what you were talking about?  Someone call the Waaambulance, Mem's sensetive little ears were burning cause I said "fuck"! Oh noes!

So even after you hurled about insults and more lies, I still tried to engage in mostly civil discourse with you, but your next post was off the wall lunatic cause you were so butt hurt by my mean reply... That's when "it was on."  I gave you three opportunities to be more than a liar and a troll (and a poor one at that. I could at least respect someone who was able to troll properly, but sadly you can't even do that right.), but you were unable to contain yourself at this point and responded with a wall of text crying about how you got slammed and couldn't understand why people think you are stupid.

Yes Mem, you are full of shit, everyone knows it.  Every single post you make, you dig your hole of lies a little deeper.

So come on, dig another few feet of dirt out and continue to post lies that are easily refutable!

Thats it. Thread locked. You were warned.