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1121  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Losing Critical Mass and Call to Action on: September 23, 2010, 07:28:36 PM
Good discussion above.

I want to come back to the original question about HOW TO DRIVE CRITICAL MASS.

Some people have express their belief that we should wait a couple of months before trying to make it bigger, but still think we should build on the momentum BITCOIN has currently. For example, bitcoin transactions, prices and turnover of coins have started to increase significantly over the past days.
If we wait to long, it may die.

I also agree that we need to look for ways to have BITCOINS used in the right target group, i.e.
Gaming, online shopping, etc.

What can we do more and faster???
One small thing that could be done right now by everyone is:

Install this Facebook game http://www.facebook.com/#!/apps/application.php?id=157118501301&ref=ts which is also listed in the bitcoin.org trade directory http://www.bitcoin.org/trade.
The game accepts bitcoins in payment.
Invite 10 different Facebook friends to install the game everyday for a week.

Its free, fast and takes almost no effort.  And who knows, it may go viral and all of a sudden everyone will be asking 'what are these bitcoins?'

Just be warned, I found the game addictive.

Link didn't work for me.  What is the game called?
1122  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Losing Critical Mass and Call to Action on: September 23, 2010, 07:25:23 PM

I didn't mean brick and mortar businesses.  I just meant online businesses with a reasonably wide inventory.  Selling things that a reasonably wide section of the population want to buy.

Well, I mean store that sell physical items, not brick and mortar businesses. In my sleep deprivation  I slipped up.

Makes sense.  providing services definitely has a lower overhead than providing goods.  I don't think we need bitcoin only physical good stores right now, it would just be nice to see some sellers of physical goods accepting bitcoins in addition to paypal, credit cards, or what have you.  I know that currently tobacco cannot be purchased with paypal, so this looks like a big possible opportunity.
1123  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Always pay transaction fee? on: September 23, 2010, 07:23:01 PM
Including fee changes and authorizing fees in the GUI would go a long way toward getting bitcoin used by the general public.  Command line orders tend to be unpopular outside the Unix crowd.
1124  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin as in-game currency on: September 23, 2010, 07:19:15 PM
There's a solution for this dilemma.  Lips sealed
What is the solution?

Well you cant really use btc as a virtual currency because it is a cash equivalent. You can sell tokens for btc though. As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions. Once you have the tokens you can  use them like any other virtual currency. This is the same reason you cant just use cash and claim it is a virtual currency. Tokens that you can earn however could be cashed out once your users got to an agreed amount.

Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system and not break the terms of service of zynga,super rewards and other virtual currency products.

If btc had been setup as virtual currency from the beginning it would be different,so now it has to be done differently.

Since when is bitcoin a cash equivalent?

It could be considered as such for some purposes because it is a store of value. In strict financial terms, it is not one. Regardless, it doesn't (In my understanding) invalidate its use as game "currency."


Exactly.  Linden Dollars and Entropia bucks are also a store of value, Entropia bucks even have a fixed exchange rate with the US dollar.  They are still allowed as in game currency.
1125  Economy / Economics / Re: Porn on: September 23, 2010, 05:01:59 AM
I think bitcoin poker will really establish the BTC.

I disagree.  All you can get with bitcoins by playing poker is bitcoins.  Gambling is also nowhere near as big a market as porn and it does not really benefit as much from the possibility of micropayments.

I think bitporn would be an excellent idea and if someone starts developing it I hope they will contact me. 
1126  Economy / Economics / Re: Walmart.com on: September 23, 2010, 04:59:01 AM
I haven't actually seen any sort of porn or drug transactions using BTC... there was the guy that talked about sending heroin, but that was just a thought experiment.  Going back to the original comment that you quoted, I feel that what both you and creighto are saying is self-evident.  I wouldn't expect walmart to use bitcoins unless there was an economic reason that didn't make them look like pedophiles/drug dealers/bad people.  To me, you might as well be saying that the sky is blue.

I specifically used the example of Freenet, which does have problems in terms of trying to sell its use outside of the guerrilla applications like child pornography and Chinese dissidents.  This isn't saying that "the sky is blue", but pointing out a major and significant problem in most peer to peer network.  There have been numerous other articles in mainstream press articles about peer to peer networks that continually criticize the subversive nature of those network and dismiss the inherent benefits from such networks.  This has become so large of a problem that at least proposed legislation has come in some areas to simply ban the concept of peer to peer networking altogether.... and that is something formally being pushed by groups like the RIAA and MPAA.

It is for this reason that I'm suggesting that Bitcoins try to at least philosophically distance itself from such subversive activities and try to stick with "legal" approaches and applications of this kind of currency and keep those kind of subversive activities more on the fringes of the group rather than a part of the mainstream of applications.  Besides, there is no way to really know what kinds of activities have been done with Bitcoins, and certainly no statistical data to show there hasn't been "any sort of porn or drug transactions using BTC".

What I am saying is that shouldn't be the first kind of thing for somebody visiting this website.  If I load up Freenet and give the mouse to a boss or CEO in a presentation about the technology, I certainly would be afraid of having something come on the screen when random links are pressed that would kill the presentation and make certain that its adoption would never happen.... even if I was not fired immediately for the presentation.  It isn't simply saying "the sky is blue" but to me a very real concern.

One example of perfectly legal use of P2P is downloading purchased software.  I downloaded torrents of both WoW and entropia universe because they downloaded faster and more easily than trying to download the software from the company directly.  I got the torrents off of the company website.  I don't know how many other companies offer torrents of their software, I expect it would encourage piracy for those companies that charge for the software itself instead of for license to access their servers, but I know that just the traffic downloading WoW is enough to hold up as a significant legitimate use of a P2P network.  I believe they also torrent their updates.
1127  Economy / Economics / Re: Stable Exchange Rate? on: September 23, 2010, 04:47:55 AM
It's been stable the whole time I have been involved in bitcoins, with some fluctuations.  However right before I got involved it increased in value, relative to the USD by about tenfold.  As far as I can tell it had been relatively stable prior to that.

Considering how tiny the market is currently of goods and services available for bitcoins I expect the value to shoot up again if there is a sudden influx, or to crawl up slowly if there is a gradual trickle.
1128  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Is Bitcoin money? on: September 23, 2010, 04:43:57 AM
I do not consider gold to be money.  You can't go and buy most goods and services with gold.  Gold is a commodity, dollars are money.

Dollars are currency, not money.  Money can be a currency and vice versa, but they are not quite the same thing and not entirely interchangable.  And fiat currencies are, by thier very definition, not money.  Gold, in our modern world, is still money even though it's no longer a currency.

We're using different definitions then.  By your definition Bitcoins are not a currency, since I can't use them for most transactions. 

What makes gold money?  What property does it have that, say, plutonium, does not?
1129  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin as in-game currency on: September 23, 2010, 04:41:54 AM
There's a solution for this dilemma.  Lips sealed
What is the solution?

Well you cant really use btc as a virtual currency because it is a cash equivalent. You can sell tokens for btc though. As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions. Once you have the tokens you can  use them like any other virtual currency. This is the same reason you cant just use cash and claim it is a virtual currency. Tokens that you can earn however could be cashed out once your users got to an agreed amount.

Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system and not break the terms of service of zynga,super rewards and other virtual currency products.

If btc had been setup as virtual currency from the beginning it would be different,so now it has to be done differently.

Since when is bitcoin a cash equivalent?
1130  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Losing Critical Mass and Call to Action on: September 23, 2010, 04:37:22 AM
Some actual businesses accepting bitcoins that sell physical goods would also go a long way toward helping them establish a foothold.  I know there is one website selling herbs online, but the inventory there consists of only two things, so I assume this is a personal hobby endeavor and not an actual business.  

Business beget business. Before you can have physical stores, you must do it with cheaper capital business.

I didn't mean brick and mortar businesses.  I just meant online businesses with a reasonably wide inventory.  Selling things that a reasonably wide section of the population want to buy.
1131  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why do this? on: September 23, 2010, 03:50:59 AM
This is the same problem I've encountered with a couple of friends I've talked to about bitcoin. A lot of people don't have the economic insight to understand why bitcoins have certain intrinsic advantages over other currencies. To them it's just play money you can generate with some obscure algorithm on a computer and then convert into "real" money. At best they see it as some form of speculation or pyramid scheme (which currently is a deflating factor imho) and in the worst case they see it as some unworldly hippie thing.

Some serious thought should be put into making people understand the intrinsic benefits of bitcoins, but I'm not sure how to do that either. Most people simply don't care and just use whatever money their government wants them to use.

What kind of a nut would want a computer in their home in 1985?
What did people think of a network of computers communicating with each other in 1995?

I don't know what will catch-on and what will fail. Bitcoins seem to solve current problems, and are worth investigation.

I was really into both, at those mentioned points, and I didn't have electricity in my home in 1985 or a computer there in 1995.  I think you are setting adoption points a bit late.
1132  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Is Bitcoin money? on: September 23, 2010, 03:41:05 AM
I do not consider gold to be money.  You can't go and buy most goods and services with gold.  Gold is a commodity, dollars are money.

Bitcoin is a virtual currency.  It has more in common with paypal than it does with dollars or with gold.  I wouldn't really call it money until it is more widely accepted as payment for goods and services.
1133  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitpredict Update Thread on: September 23, 2010, 03:39:07 AM
Yay!  Bitcoin prediction market.  I am glad to see this coming together.  I wish you luck, let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
1134  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: will KYC laws permanently stifle bitcoin? on: September 23, 2010, 03:21:51 AM
If more products are being offered for bitcoins there will be greatly reduced need to change bitcoins into dollars (or Euros).

One example I saw was in the bitcoin market section where someone said that he would like to be able to buy barley and hops for bitcoins and sell beer for them.  Now he'd still have to change bitcoins into dollars to pay for shipping, as would his barley supplier to pay for shipping and some other things, but his own need to change bitcoins for dollars would be greatly reduced by being able to pay for his materials with bitcoins. 
1135  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Price of Bitcoins Holding Steady and Slowly Rising on: September 23, 2010, 03:05:50 AM
Quote
The price managed to be steady in the face of inflation.

If prices are remaining steady then there is no inflation.  Smiley  In the case of bitcoins, there will have to be high deflation if bitcoins are widely adopted.

The rate at which bitcoins are generated is fixed over the long term.  If you increase the demand for bitcoins at a rate faster than they are being generated, then they will become more valuable compared to other currencies.  That is deflation.  We have seen deflation in the bitcoin and we will continue to see deflation if bitcoins are successful.  If people do not value and demand bitcoins, then you will see inflation.



Two different forms of inflation.  You are talking about price inflation.  He was talking about supply inflation.  The supply certainly did inflate.  The fact that price did not (at least relative to dollars, which had a fairly small amount of inflation in the period mentioned) means that the bitcoin economy is growing in pace with the supply.
1136  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Losing Critical Mass and Call to Action on: September 23, 2010, 02:39:44 AM
What bitcoin needs to take off, is a killer app.

The only people who are motivated to use bitcoin at the moment are cyphergeeks, who are attracted the beauty of its internal mechanics, and rabid libertarians, who see it as a tool to spread their ideology. The vast majority of internet users are neither of those. Paypal fulfils their needs just as well as bitcoin, so why would they be motivated to switch?

The killer app, IMO, would be a system for trading bandwidth on anonymity networks such as Tor and i2p. The problem with these networks at the moment is that they are slow and inconvenient as they rely on volunteers to provide bandwith and suffer from congestion.

If Tor users had a way of paying for node providers anonymously, the size and speed of the network would explode.  Anonymous bittorrent would become viable, and judging from the amount of bittorrent traffic on the net, there is no shortage of demand. Increasingly draconian copyright laws, and their increasingly heavy handed enforcement, will motivate even the most lazy bittorrent users to switch.

That is one application where bitcoin has a big competitive advantage. There are few, if any, other currencies suitable for anonymous bandwidth trading.

I am a mild libertarian and internet junkie but I am by no means a rabid libertarian or cyphergeek.   My attraction to bitcoin is that it does not charge me the way that paypal does, even if fees are implemented they are not going to be as high.

Currently I am much more likely to use paypal, because I can buy more things with it.  Hopefully this will change before too long, I know that I have seen more products and services being offered for bitcoins, but what looked like an explosion of them when I first started getting into it seems to have slowed to a trickle.

Obviously online services are going to be easier to trade for bitcoins than physical goods, because the postal service does not accept them.  I have seen people offering translation services, IT consulting, Tarot card reading (that'd be me) and I'd love to see more.  I don't know if there are any artists out there who are into bitcoin, but graphic design would undoubtedly be the sort of service that would be very valuable and would interface with bitcoins well.  

Some actual businesses accepting bitcoins that sell physical goods would also go a long way toward helping them establish a foothold.  I know there is one website selling herbs online, but the inventory there consists of only two things, so I assume this is a personal hobby endeavor and not an actual business.  
1137  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Network-wide self-corecting mechanisms on: August 01, 2010, 05:42:09 PM
If there are not enough bitcoin someone will create a new system.  Satoshi has done the hard part already.
1138  Economy / Economics / Re: Walmart.com on: August 01, 2010, 08:21:06 AM
It's not the political aspect of bitcoins that would stop it, IMO.  A big part of it is the anonymity.  Walmart, and other corporations, like anonymity even less than the state does.  Also, if they were working as a conversion service, which would probably be more likely than actually selling products for bitcoins, they'd want their cut. 
1139  Economy / Economics / Re: Walmart.com on: August 01, 2010, 06:25:00 AM
I can't see wal-mart or any other large retailer getting onboard until bitcoins are already very widespread.  Especcially with the prices of bitcoins fluctuating as much as they still are.
1140  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Scalability multiple currencies on: August 01, 2010, 06:20:28 AM
You can have a fixed exchange system because the two systems would talk to each other to ensure that any new coin minted in one system results in a coin being destroyed in the other.  Because the transaction is always reversible for free at any time on demand by the user a user would not care which design is on the gold coin they were paid in.

You need not track both systems if you are only doing exchanges in the one system.

The *key* is convertibility between the systems.

If there was no "demand" for bytecoins then every bytecoin would be melted down and reformed as a bitcoin.

However, if the system was set up such that re-minting was always possible at any time then the coins would have equal value.   

Thus each country could have their own "gold coins" but even though they have different names and denominations they all ultimately have equal purchasing power. 

If for some reason people just perfer the look of the US gold coin vs the canadian one and melting/recasting was free then the canadian coin would go out of style. 

So you have your two independent block lists representing bit and byte coins.  Some nodes would have to track both block lists.  A transaction would be entered at the same time in both lists to destroy one coin and create another.   


Put yet another way.  If I take one gold coin out and divide it up into 1000 pieces called gold bbs.  I only need to ensure that the bbs are not "double spent" and I could care less about the other gold coins in circulation.  At any time I could convert my gold bb back into .001 gold coins.  It is only when I decide to "hop boundaries" that I need to ensure that there is no "double conversion". 




I don't see the point of them.  Just sounds like bitcoins with a different name, but no actual difference.
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