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naja ich hatte 10 anwalete aus der Liste angeschrieben, ob sie den fall uebernehmen wollen, die waren unter den wenigen die ueberhaupt geantwortet haben und explizit mitgeteilt haben, dass sie kein Interesse haben ;-)
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I dont claim to be anyone's lawyer, i just want to share my personal view on things. I also shared the legal assessment I received from "my" (german) lawyer about the interpretation of "lost bitcoins". But your assumtion that I want to help M4v3r out is just wrong. In my opinion the only way to get "THE" money back is by "earning" it back by setting up a new site that provides unique features and would have the trust of many users.
From the questionnaire results, most people actually chose to put their energy in creating a new platform instead of trying to hunt behind the "old" money which is lost anyway, no matter how many court cases you might win.
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you can also sue him for having two ears and a nose, but the question is if you would get through with it. At least what I have seen from (german) cases from the past, e.g. cases where precious metals were involved or stocks that gained massively in value etc. the courts have always denied these kind of cases for the "loss of opportunity" part.
But this is anyway just a side problem. The main issue is in my opinion: No matter how right you are and whatever the court will approve, the question is: Would you actually GET the money, or would you simply get nothing because there is nothing there? Your lawyer will not care, he will always get your money from YOU and he will get it first before he will start doing anything... ;-)
BTW, you could also try without lawyer and see how far you get without polish language skills
But please, do not believe me, just do your own research, i am just trying to help
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Well, thats what i thought in the beginning, too. He owes you bitcoins and you can sue him to to get your bitcoins back. But thats simply a wrong assumtion.
This is not the case, as the bitcoins got lost and are not there anymore. Therefore, from legal point of view he does not owe you these bitcoins anymore, but he has to reimburse the inflicted damage in EURO (or whatever fiat currency applies) that was caused by the loss. And this makes a HUGE difference.
It is the same as if you buy a car and the car burns down because the seller "accidentially" burned it down or lost it because the car was stolen or whatever AFTER your purchase. in this case you cannot demand the car anymore, but the seller has to reimburse the amount in Euro (not in cars).
I only have a german source for this case, namely § 326 I BGB, but in polish law it should be the same.
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and one additional comment:
If you go to the police, they will take two hours of your precious time and write a nice protocol that is needed for some crime statistics only. After 2 months you get a reply that investigations are stopped, as your tiny sum is not worth the effort to start further investigations and they tell you to take a lawyer, as there is no public interest in the case. (I did this last year when someone cheated me for 28 Bitcoins, where i even knew the bank information and name/address of the guy)
And for the bitmarket.eu thing: When I looked for lawyers in Poland during the time at the beginning when I first was VERY angry about my frozen coins, i also was extremly disapointed.
They usually have "reasonable" fees for polish citizens, but quite high fees for foreigners. It is tricky to find english speaking lawyers, I could at least manage to find few german-speaking lawyers as they speak german better than english in many cases. But they ALL take cash in advance and most of them do not even answer to your inquiries anymore, as soon as you start explaining something about bitcoin and blockchain transactions or whatever. They will refuse to take YOUR case anyway when tiny sums like 50 bitcoins are concerned, they will just laugh and tell you to go back and play with your facebook friends.
But do not trust me or "my lawyer", just make your own experience, waste some more money on lawyers if you can afford and keep beleiving I am now best friends with Maciej and I am investing into this new bitmarket project thing because i want do HIM (Maciej) a favor ;-))
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well, believe it or not, i am not related to bitmarket and/or the admin in any way. I just lost my coins as anyone else, simply a "slightly" bigger amount than you, so i would like to find a USEFUL way out. As i posted in the other thread, going to court or whatever will not help you in any way, maybe you have tried this in the past, but from your comment(s) i assume it will be your first time.
But please make your own experience with an international court case. It takes 2 years or more and will cost you AT LEAST 3000 euros. And in the end it gives you nothing. And no i dont want to scare you off, its just the reality
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well, the problem I discussed with my lawyer is: he does actually not owe you BITCOINS anymore, since they are GONE. In this case he is responsible to reimburse you the inflicted damage resulting from the loss in FIAT currency. Speculation profits or whatever you could construct are not counted....Since the loss was announced at 22.12 or so, he is responsible to reimburse you something like 47,62 times 10 euros = 476,20 Euros.
In a follow up step, provided you can actually provide enough evidence and bla you will pay in advance 3000 euros for a lawyer to get a certificate proving that he owes you that amount. This does not mean that he actually CAN pay you. In case he cannot (which is VERY likely if you have around 300.000 euros debts) He will go to bankruptcy. And after that "bankrupcy" will be announced and all former bitcoin holders would get around 6%. So, in your case: maybe 30 Euros, while you spent 3000 for the lawyer. (And up to here 2 years passed)
You are completely naive to trust into our legal system and stupid buerocrats or lawyers. In my case it would actually make more sense, as i have 618 frozen coins, but you can sue around as much as you want, it simply does not make sense when there is nothing to take....
The address should be easy to find, just check the domain owner
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This stupid hacker incident really occured at the worst timing one could imagine, in particular as it happened just after the questionnaire ended and therefore all positive answers might completely have chainged their minds in the meantime.. We are just discussing if those hacked coins should be reimbursed first or not. Or at least faster than the rest or not (no decision taken yet, this will be done on our meeting 15th march), as the problem is simply that there is not much investment money available.
However, the plan is that the site will not be involved with the new site anymore and bitcoins could not be accessed from the site admin(s) at all anymore.
People of course do not lose any rights from going to court against the old admin. From the questionnarie it looks like only few people are not cooperating. Maybe you should contact Maciej directly and "officially" set back your status to non-cooperation plus claim a reimbursement of an amount in FIAT currency (bitcoins are not there and cannot be paid out). Therefore, i think you will not get bitcoins back anyway, as it is simply not possible.
We actually had a legal assessment on this, and the proposal was that "frozen bitcoins" are never "released" to non-cooperative persons, but you might be reimbursed a certain amoint in FIAT currency where the bitcoin price is determined at the date your coins were actually frozen OR the amount you actually paid for them on bitmarket.eu in the past.
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eiskalt, i partially agree.
We are actually reconsidering if we should pay back stolen coins first, but that is really a tricky question, as of course the money misses for the rest. There was no decision taken on that topic (yet)
I also agree that this is NOT a good starting point. I.e. i agree that it is unfavorable to start with a shitload of lost coins. But the spirit seems still to be quite good and the main motivation that binds us together is not only coming from the old admin, but in particular from the people with frozen coins. And to the people i have talked so far there are great ideas and we just need to coordinate properly to make these happen.
Bitmarket used to be a good site in the past, run only by one person. When we now have the chance to start again with a team of skilled people i do not share your pessimism. I also fully agree that a bank is completely useless. But a peer2peer market where trust can be guarantueed is not.
I am also not saying that it is without risk to invest new money on top of the coins already lost, but the money is not lost, it just helps to pay back part of frozen coins to start with. But it also gives a chance to develop a useful site "owned" by a couple of skilled and motivated stakeholders that of course need to have more in mind than just short-term profit. But in case the new site might become a central part of the future booming bitcoin economy, we might have a chance to get our frozen coins actually back
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contact me instead, i will pay more ;-)
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that was the main reason why it was tricky to find investors at all ;-). We at least have now been able to find some people to invest some of their private savings into this new project and many people spend already a lot of their free time.
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I totally agree with you...unfortunately everyone of us can only decide between crappy solutions. You have full opportunity to invest (whatever amount of) new money and get your part of shares for that.
When you chose the 30% payout it would also be 30% fiat payout based on the price on december when the coins got frozen. Or you can chose to not-cooperate and see how much money you can actually "sue" from the old owner...maybe few % or so at its best. You have to decide between crappiest solutions, but like in my case, i also have limited resources to invest into this project and also other investors (new) capital is limited, as i now tried to look for investors many weeks now and it is not easy to pull "new" money into this bankruptcy project at all. This is now the compromise we negotiated in long "night" discussions.
When old coins would give 3 times more shares than no one is investing and thats it. This is definetly NOT a good investment for new investors, it is necessary to make compromises.
Since you want to be "passive" investor, it might be better to chose the "cooperate", there you would get your "equal" share of the 50% profits from the new site
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but since the frozen coin is lost anyway it is "easier" to invest than really taking NEW coins into this kamikaze project that might never be able to earn back all the debts that were accumulated by the old admin. But if you have different proposal you can contact the admin@bitmarket.euI think in his mail there were some alternatives presented when i am correct |
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these are the kind of questions we would like to discuss in our meeting on 15th march. ;-)
old debts = frozen coins. Liability transfer i just mean that new owners are legally liable for bitmarket.eu debts (frozen coins)
Would you happen to have time on 15th to join our meeting? ;-) We could use any helping hand.
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for the old admin i think it is basically impossible to get a loan
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Well, 1 frozen coin is 1 share in case you decide to invest. The question is only how NEWLY invested money is valued in terms of shares. The current proposal is a fairer solution for people that invest NEW money in order to pay back frozen coins...
It is always possible to change back to "non-cooperation" and formally send a claim against bitmarket.eu, but your help to solve the situation in a best possible way would be highly appreciated
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indeed it is also very important that the new site is legally independent from the old site. It was my main concern and a precondition, so any tries to transfer over liabilities to new owners is impossible and will not happen. For this reason there will be a new domain registered, new website, completely new ownership all users have to sign up completely from scratch. And thats it. Just another bitcoin site as they would open everyday anywhere in the world.
The profit of the new site can be distributed however the new users decide. We could donate to children in Africa so they can buy food.... But no, instead the new oweners simply decide that profits are used 50% to pay back frozen coins (this does not create any liability transfer) and the other 50% will go to investors according their aribrarily definable share. Using frozen coins as arbitrary shares also does not create any liabilities towards old debts, as shares are simply created by an agreement among these people.
According to my legal advisor that is fine, if someone has a different opinion please let me know ;-)
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The plan is indeed to reopen the site under new ownership. But a transfer cannot take place over night.
At the moment there is still the "follow up communication" going on, as described above Maciej has sent out the relevant emails. We now have 91 people expressing their will to "invest" and we should now determine in the most democratic way on who wants to take which role an which responsibility and/or who wants to stay "passive" investor so an efficient decision making is still possible.
I myself cannot take ownership of this project alone, i still have a full time job plus a family and even though i am willing to invest a lot of my free time, support is needed for managing, administering and especially developing the new site.
On our kick-off meeting in two weeks on 15th we will try to clarify who does what and who gets which responsibilities and this would also be a good time to transfer ownership of the site, AFTER we received all necessary information needed.
And well, for the stolen coins unfortunately i cannot say much, but i think they just go on top of all the rest of lost coins..., debts are not going any lower. Maybe someone has a better proposal.
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if the coins are "frozen" or "boiled" or "lost" indeed does not make any difference.
And whatever.... i also agree there will not be much real profit from this project and it would need a miracle to pay back lost coins in any reasonable time... BUT
for me the chance is simply that now many stakeholders can really find together and set up a new project from scratch while some skilled developers are "forced" from the debt situation to help out and develop a new website that meets all the requirements we (the "forced creditors") have in mind!. I know the debts are high and everyone is right to be upset...., but this is really a one time chance to set up everthing from scratch, exactly the way we want it to be. Maciej is willing to cooperate and thats far better than any emotional discussion on how bad everyone is.
Maciej knows what i am talking about, i gave him also a hard time some time in between with also shouting and so on and we had many differences on how to handle th situation etc *g But in the end my proposal is: lets stick together and start this new project not only for the sake of paying back frozen coins, but also for the bitcoin community (=thats us) and lets make the best out of the situation. At least i am willing to invest my little spare time i have plus some money (in addition to "lost/frozen" coins) to make it happen and i would be glad more people would like to join.
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