BitMarket.Eu has closed down

[tacoexperience]

if the coins are "frozen" or "boiled" or "lost" indeed does not make any difference.

And whatever.... i also agree there will not be much real profit from this project and it would need a miracle to pay back lost coins in any reasonable time... BUT
for me the chance is simply that now many stakeholders can really find together and set up a new project from scratch while some skilled developers are "forced" from the debt situation to help out and develop a new website that meets all the requirements we (the "forced creditors") have in mind!. I know the debts are high and everyone is right to be upset...., but this is really a one time chance to set up everthing from scratch, exactly the way we want it to be. Maciej is willing to cooperate and thats far better than any emotional discussion on how bad everyone is.

Maciej knows what i am talking about, i gave him also a hard time some time in between with also shouting and so on and we had many differences on how to handle th situation etc *g But in the end my proposal is: lets stick together and start this new project not only for the sake of paying back frozen coins, but also for the bitcoin community (=thats us) and lets make the best out of the situation. At least i am willing to invest my little spare time i have plus some money (in addition to "lost/frozen" coins) to make it happen and i would be glad more people would like to join.

@mralbi - You are very good in explaining everything, in a really easy and calm manner. I didn't have a lot of coins in that site, and at that time I was only starting the get involved with BTC so I'm glad all this happened when it did.. but I'm glad/happy that you are behind this attempt to come up with a solution etc (either is "forced" as you lost a lot of coins or not).

I have accepted already that I won't get my coins back, so getting anything at all will be a bonus.

I also think that going to liquidation is (for lack of a nicer word) stupid. The guy obviously made a mistake. He tried to fix it, and because of that it became a ponzi scheme. He came here and admitted to all, and is trying and keep trying to find solutions to fix it. He's made a mistake.. let him try to fix it.. specially now that he has many more excellent brains behind him. Also if he goes to liquidation, what are we/you going to get? Who's going to pay for your lawyer, in Poland!

I don't know.. I believe in second chances, because I had one and it completely changed my life. I'm sure this will/is making him grow, and better things will happen for him and everyone involved.

Good luck everyone. Keep us updated. I don't post a lot but I check this several times a day to keep in the loop.

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[pazor]

meanwhile...

i want my two bitcoin back !!!

[M4v3R]

I just finished sending update emails. Each creditor should receive today a detailed information about the current situation, our near future plans and an update regarding reimbursement of his funds (based on questionaire answer we received from this user). In two weeks we plan an "official" investor meeting in Helsinki, Finland, on which we'll discuss in details how to move on. Anyone who wants to become an active investor in the project is welcome to participate. For details, please contact Martin (mralbi).

[unixdude]

I just finished sending update emails. Each creditor should receive today a detailed information about the current situation, our near future plans and an update regarding reimbursement of his funds (based on questionaire answer we received from this user). In two weeks we plan an "official" investor meeting in Helsinki, Finland, on which we'll discuss in details how to move on. Anyone who wants to become an active investor in the project is welcome to participate. For details, please contact Martin (mralbi).

No offence I have a few simple questions:

Why are you still involved with the site going forward?  - you being associated with the site just tarnishes the whole thing.

If there are plans for you to be completely removed from having access even at an operational level when will those take effect? - no offence I would not be comfortable with you having access to the server the site runs on.

What guarantees do we have that you will not disappear should people wish to take legal action against you as an individual?

Will the new owners get an actual reputable company in to audit your code and current infrastructure to deem how secure it is?

Will regular pen tests be run by a reputable vendor going forward?

[M4v3R]

No offense taken. I am still involved because it's the best way in the short-term to go forward. I know the site, the code and whole operations. After the investor group take back the site, I will not be involved anymore directly (I may work as a consultant for the service, but that's up to the new management to decide), but for the time being, there is no other way really if we want things to proceed in a timely manner.

Please rest assured that I will not have any access to people's Bitcoins at any point from now on.

What guarantees do you have that I will not dissapear? Well, it's hard for me to imagine such guarantee. One thing is I didn't do it already, even in the event of latest hack, and I'm not going to.

Apart from a professional network manager that is looking in to server security right now, there will be security audits/penetration tests done by independent third party company, as soon as the new site is ready to launch.

[unixdude]

No offense taken. I am still involved because it's the best way in the short-term to go forward. I know the site, the code and whole operations. After the investor group take back the site, I will not be involved anymore, but for the time being, there is no other way really if we want things to proceed in a timely manner.

Please rest assured that I will not have any access to people's Bitcoins at any point from now on.

What guarantees do you have that I will not dissapear? Well, it's hard for me to imagine such guarantee. One thing is I didn't do it already, even in the event of latest hack, and I'm not going to.

Apart from a professional network manager that is looking in to server security right now, there will be security audits/penetration tests done by independent third party company, as soon as the new site is ready to launch.

Another question what qualifies this network manager to perform an internal security audit? Is he recognised by any professional bodies?

i.e. does he have any of the following certifications and been working in the industry for over 5 years as a minimum perferably 10 with at least one enterprise level company?

CISA

CISM

CISSP

GIAC

[xyz]

I just finished sending update emails. Each creditor should receive today a detailed information about the current situation, our near future plans and an update regarding reimbursement of his funds (based on questionaire answer we received from this user). In two weeks we plan an "official" investor meeting in Helsinki, Finland, on which we'll discuss in details how to move on. Anyone who wants to become an active investor in the project is welcome to participate. For details, please contact Martin (mralbi).

Maybe you answered already - but I didn't find it - what happened with the last (about 600) bitcoins what are stolen lately from the site? You wrote somewhere it's possible that you get back the coins! Do you know, WHO take them? And WHERE are the coins now?

[tacoexperience]

I hope the new "owners" are getting a very VERY expensive, professional and ruthless lawyer(s) to draw up the contract that says that, whenever they take over the website, that they are free from all the shenanigans over the stolen, lost and hacked coins. Because I am p-r-e-t-t-y sure that there are a lot of people just waiting for confirmation that all contracts are signed with the new owners, so that they can press charges, sue and get their money back, because obviously they won't get anything from maver.

And since the new owners are residents in better judicial system countries such as Germany, Finland, and others, it would be much easier for anyone to sue.

I read in an earlier post that that people would have a hard time to prove in court that bitcoins are "money" and they have value and should be compensated for the stolen coins. You can treat bitcoins as any other "good" in an economics sense. Example: Some people trade Teddy Bears, and some of them are worth $500k. A "good" is a "good" .. And since people trade on it, it could be toilet paper as far as the courts are concerned, if there was proof of such value. And with all these sites and exchanges, that would be no problem. Now suing over a "good" is one thing, suing over "money" is at a total different level. That will be courts only challenge.

So, new investors, ESPECIALLY the ones that are oblivious about the questionnaire, and opted to "invest" in this.. You better prepare, and seek legal advice.. because if even 1 person sue, the courts can come after your money too.. all the lawyers need to do if find out who has the most in the bank and concentrate on them.

Oh btw, you willingly invested in a business proven to be a ponzi scheme. One can argue.. what were your true intentions..?? Perhaps you saw an opportunity to do the same and get away with it, just like maver did.. I mean, that's quick money, right? And no one is liable? That won't stick.

I'm all for the site re-opening.. but boy, 18,000BTC is serious.. I'm not hating.. I just don't think a lot of these people fully understand what it means "investing in a business" or being part of one, and liable.

Good luck yall.

 

[unixdude]

That's why I don't want to be an investor - I just want guarantees that over X period of time they will make regular payments to me for the bit-coins that the initial owner stole.  I have no interest in being an investor.

[mralbi]

The plan is indeed to reopen the site under new ownership. But a transfer cannot take place over night.

At the moment there is still the "follow up communication" going on, as described above Maciej has sent out the relevant emails. We now have 91 people expressing their will to "invest" and we should now determine in the most democratic way on who wants to take which role an which responsibility and/or who wants to stay "passive" investor so an efficient decision making is still possible.

I myself cannot take ownership of this project alone, i still have a full time job plus a family and even though i am willing to invest a lot of my free time, support is needed for managing, administering and especially developing the new site.


On our kick-off meeting in two weeks on 15th we will try to clarify who does what and who gets which responsibilities and this would also be a good time to transfer ownership of the site, AFTER we received all necessary information needed.


And well, for the stolen coins unfortunately i cannot say much, but i think they just go on top of all the rest of lost coins..., debts are not going any lower. Maybe someone has a better proposal.

[mralbi]

indeed it is also very important that the new site is legally independent from the old site. It was my main concern and a precondition, so any tries to transfer over liabilities to new owners is impossible and will not happen. For this reason there will be a new domain registered, new website, completely new ownership all users have to sign up completely from scratch. And thats it. Just another bitcoin site as they would open everyday anywhere in the world.

The profit of the new site can be distributed however the new users decide. We could donate to children in Africa so they can buy food.... But no, instead the new oweners simply decide that profits are used 50% to pay back frozen coins (this does not create any liability transfer) and the other 50% will go to investors according their aribrarily definable share. Using frozen coins as arbitrary shares also does not create any liabilities towards old debts, as shares are simply created by an agreement among these people.

According to my legal advisor that is fine, if someone has a different opinion please let me know ;-)

[hahahafr]

The profit of the new site can be distributed however the new users decide. We could donate to children in Africa so they can buy food.... But no, instead the new oweners simply decide that profits are used 50% to pay back frozen coins (this does not create any liability transfer) and the other 50% will go to investors according their aribrarily definable share. Using frozen coins as arbitrary shares also does not create any liabilities towards old debts, as shares are simply created by an agreement among these people.

According to my legal advisor that is fine, if someone has a different opinion please let me know ;-)

Who decide where the profit is going? The <users of the site>, or <the "investors" and the board>?
I don't understand what's the difference between "old debts" and "frozen coins", could you please elaborate?
Also what do you mean by not creating a "liability transfer"?

PS: I'm Michael, the CS student who sent you a mail expressing interest in actively taking part in developing the site.

[mralbi]

these are the kind of questions we would like to discuss in our meeting on 15th march. ;-)


old debts = frozen coins. Liability transfer i just mean that new owners are legally liable for bitmarket.eu debts (frozen coins)


Would you happen to have time on 15th to join our meeting? ;-) We could use any helping hand.

[manfred]

Oh btw, you willingly invested in a business proven to be a ponzi scheme. One can argue.. what were your true intentions..?? Perhaps you saw an opportunity to do the same and get away with it, just like maver did.. I mean, that's quick money, right? And no one is liable? That won't stick.

I guess the true intention for most investors in this project is to create a community based exchange, p2p service of highest quality away from the backyard operators. Something like the "Linux" for Bitcoins. Its unlikely 91 total strangers with jobs and families team up to run a ponzi scheme. Anyone wanting to participate in a proven ponzi scheme can go straight the source. mmm2012.com
As a side note only invest money u can afford to lose 

[mralbi]

that was the main reason why it was tricky to find investors at all ;-). We at least have now been able to find some people to invest some of their private savings into this new project and many people spend already a lot of their free time.

[eiskalt]

I already posted in the newbies section (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129803.msg1574937#msg1574937) but since I am now allowed to post here, I have some additional points to make..

-relaunching the site can and will not be successful unless you recover at least the losses of the latest theft, because those coins belonged to people that wanted to give bitmarket.eu a second chance - others stayed away from the site and did so rightfully.

-your ideas about new services are illusionary and will not bring users back because everybody knows who is involved with the site. So in fact you try to create a complete new exchange, what you could do any time with any personal you would like to choose. mralbi mentioned a "debt-situation" and that bitmarket-admin could therefore be forced to cooperate in developing the new site. I consider such a debtsituation and force the worst situation to start a new buisness/site. Also look what bitcoin-central did; they registered as a PSP in cooperation with a bank, that is also unprecedented in the bitcoinworld - nowhere are your bitcoins more secure than there, but does anyone care? The point is: Just because there is an idea does not mean that people will follow as you would like them to.

-what mralbi also does (although it is maybe not his intention) is trying to bring people into doubling down on there their lost bitcoins, which can and will only lead to further losses, because of what I said before.

-your questionaire is null and void, because of the second incident, which changed many peoples mind.

So that is it for now, I see only one way to go forward and that is official bancruptcy in courts. bitmarket-admin will have his chance to come clean there (I do not expect him to get a prison term) and the users will get what is left of bitmarket.eu. Also remember, if bitmarket-admin has to sell everything he owns, do not forget the website and its code, so there will be maybe more to get in courts, than what is offered to you right now.

[manfred]

@eiskalt
those are all very good points and need consideration. The theft incident certainly is a major bummer. since the questionairy was taken before the break in it did not address it (otherwisw it would not have happend. So the question is what to to with those 624 BTCs?

Also look what bitcoin-central did; they registered as a PSP in cooperation with a bank, that is also unprecedented in the bitcoinworld - nowhere are your bitcoins more secure than there, but does anyone care?

The short answer is NO, nobody cares judging by the amount of trade (0 coins traded this week 16 bitcoins last week). After all the main reason to use bitcoins is to get away from the gangster bankers. It's an oxymoron combination bank and bitcoin. Why not take ur bundle of money and take it straight to the bank and bypass bitcoin-central, its even "saver" as the exchange is not needed.

[mralbi]

eiskalt, i partially agree.

We are actually reconsidering if we should pay back stolen coins first, but that is really a tricky question, as of course the money misses for the rest. There was no decision taken on that topic (yet)

I also agree that this is NOT a good starting point. I.e. i agree that it is unfavorable to start with a shitload of lost coins. But the spirit seems still to be quite good and the main motivation that binds us together is not only coming from the old admin, but in particular from the people with frozen coins. And to the people i have talked so far there are great ideas and we just need to coordinate properly to make these happen.

Bitmarket used to be a good site in the past, run only by one person. When we now have the chance to start again with a team of skilled people i do not share your pessimism. I also fully agree that a bank is completely useless. But a peer2peer market where trust can be guarantueed is not.

I am also not saying that it is without risk to invest new money on top of the coins already lost, but the money is not lost, it just helps to pay back part of frozen coins to start with. But it also gives a chance to develop a useful site "owned" by a couple of skilled and motivated stakeholders that of course need to have more in mind than just short-term profit. But in case the new site might become a central part of the future booming bitcoin economy, we might have a chance to get our frozen coins actually back

[eiskalt]

I am honestly not willing to discuss any plans/ideas regarding the relaunch of bitmarket.eu, as I will not be involved in this.
At the moment I have only three questions, which I want to be answered within a reasonable time-frame (i.e. 2-3 days).:

-Can bitmarket-admin confirm, that he owes me 47,6258 bitcoins? (My username at bitmarket.eu is fluppisippi.)

-To which bitcoinaddress(es) were the latest 620 stolen bitcoins sent? (Maybe bitmarket-admin already told us, but I could not find it)

-What is the postal address of the person that is legally responsible for bitmarket.eu in Poland? In case bitmarket.eu beeing a legal entity, what is its address?

I will also write an email with the same questions to bitmarket-admin, so you do not need to make your address public (although for legal reasons it should be).

(blue=edited)

[manfred]

I am honestly not willing to discuss any plans/ideas regarding the relaunch of bitmarket.eu, as I will not be involved in this.
At the moment I have only three questions, which I want to be answered within a reasonable time-frame (i.e. 2-3 days).:

-Can bitmarket-admin confirm, that he owes me 47,6258 bitcoins? (My username at bitmarket.eu is fluppisippi.)

-To which bitcoinaddress(es) were the latest 620 stolen bitcoins sent? (Maybe bitmarket-admin already told us, but I could not find it)

-What is the postal address of the person that is legally responsible for bitmarket.eu in Poland? In case bitmarket.eu beeing a legal entity, what is its address?

I will also write an email with the same questions to bitmarket-admin, so you do not need to make your address public (although for legal reasons it should be).

(blue=edited)

if it helps Maciej (bitmarket-admin) posted some info page 40  #798 regarding question 2