The vast majority of that would fall under III, but if you think I should add an additional section, I'm all ears. I entirely agree that Bitcoin investments are shady, and many are Ponzi schemes. There is, however, a distinct difference between logical assertions made once and endlessly repeated 'PONZI! SCAMMER! DON'T INVEST' posts and threads. The latter I object to, as I fail to see what they contribute to the community. If you think otherwise, however, I would love to hear your reasoning.

What are you looking for, ballpark?

The wording needs some work ('bitcoin-backed'?) and you backed the default claim by quoting the closing announcement (different things).

Still, I like the idea.

You're selling a 20 cent BitcoinMax account? Why?

Unfortunately, I don't suspect anyone would ever put their threads in a "Let's Dribble BS" board. Most people consider themselves logical, whether they are or not.

I suspect at least some of the violations are intentional. Bitcoin Discussion gets a lot of traffic, and most people want maximum thread visibility. Even if their thread gets moved, they still have the 'Moved Thread' link in Bitcoin Discussion.

I am not really sure how to combat this. Enforcement and punishment, especially with regard to differentiation between intentional and unintentional violations, would be challenging and time-consuming. 'Moved Thread' links are necessary in order not to confuse people who had previously posted. Immediately, I suppose you could try implementing some sort of 'Category Suggestion' feature in thread creation based on keywords in a thread title, but I have no idea how hard that would be to implement in SMF or how much of an impact it would really have.

Hmm. Interesting conundrum.

Burden of proof on Pirate I agree with. (Side note: I hadn't heard of the "celestial teapot", thanks, that's quite intriguing!)

Mostly, I strongly object to the term "common sense" as I have yet to see it used in any way not effectively synonymous to "This is obvious, and if you don't see it, you're {wrong,stupid}". Serious subjective bias creeping in on my part, probably, but regardless, I don't think the term "common sense" can really be used objectively.


Fair enough, the whole Pirate controversy is quite the poster child for everything you mentioned, that I cannot debate. I probably responded more spitefully than necessary. I'm just tired of all the Pirate threads, regardless of what side they're arguing for.

Thank you usagi for managing this chain of events intelligently, not making any rash decisions, and being mostly frank. It's not a common sight in the Bitcoin economy right now, but it most certainly is a welcome one.

If you want to compete with the vast horde of utterly generic and mostly stagnant mining companies, you need to differentiate yourselves somehow; make your company a superior investment. Until that happens, you won't see much investment.

Although your post is unnecessarily biased and focused on one particular incident (some of the examples are in and of themselves borderline straw man fallacies or anecdotal evidence), the points are mostly reasonable and at least intelligently stated, so I thank you.
Hopefully this can motivate everyone, regardless of their views on any one particular subject, to reason more logically.

However, I have a few gripes.


Please explain to me how this statement is remotely objective in any sense whatsoever. "reasonably"? "common sense"?

In general, I fail to understand how using specific examples, most of which are (albeit in my opinion) extreme cases, from one particular incident lends credibility to your points; I would postulate that it does the opposite through alienating those pro-Pirate and causing those anti-Pirate to be motivated to agree with you for reasons related to the political leaning of your post rather than the legitimacy of logical fallacies presented therein. What is the goal here: more objective debates, or another pro/anti Pirate battleground thread?


Anecdotal evidence is a highly subjective term, and not clearly or uniformly defined. The point relating to "Meet A Pirate" could perhaps be more accurately argued to be a case of subjective validation. In either case, categorizing this as anecdotal or subjective validation without further explanation or proof of such is meaningless.

All in all, please do not forget to remember that all generalizations are false.

I agree that many of the points made by Pirate supporters are logical fallacies. The same can be said about points made by Pirate opponents. The same can be said about half the posts in this forum. The fact that some proponents of a certain viewpoint utilize logically flawed methodologies of debate does not in any way whatsoever invalidate that viewpoint.

I agree with your intentions, but I advise you to be careful with your execution. Over-regulation would be catastrophic.


Is being a lot larger a requirement? Some small IPOs on GLBSE have been quite successful.


If you do it well, this would be absolutely wonderful. Let me know if I can help.


I guess that depends on your perspective. I agree, many of the companies turned out to be scams of one sort or another, but not more so (probably less so) than Bitcoin projects in general. A certain amount of that is probably unavoidable at this point in the Bitcoin market evolution. Now, I'm not saying that less scams would be a bad thing, but I also think the market will naturally learn on its own. 'Protecting' the market from that learning could lead to unintended consequences later, when someone leads a much more elaborate and harder to recognize scam. Children don't learn to walk by being held up by their parents. They have to fall, cut themselves, get frustrated, yell, scream, and try again. Eventually, though, they obtain their balance - and rarely, if ever, fall again.


Oh, I've got plenty of those.

All in all, I think your ideas show merit, I just advise you to tread with caution.

OP updated, thanks Dani. That's an impressive temp with that OC and 20% fan, nice job.

I. Introduction

Over the past few months, I've observed a general trend on this forum that I think is rather disturbing. We have always disagreed and debated on a vast variety of subjects, but more and more often of late those debates seem to turn into or in some cases start as nothing but 'flame wars', to use the colloquial term. This forum, once a reasonable facsimile of a haven for intellectual and civil discussion, has mutated into a wasteland of mud-slinging, baseless accusations, fear-mongering, utterly nonsensical FUD, mob mentalities, and worst of all, xenophobia. This is most pronounced in the Marketplace and associated sub-forums, but seems to be permeating throughout the extent of these boards.

II. Why The Marketplace Matters

Some of you probably avoid the Marketplace altogether, and wonder if it really matters. Regardless of where you prefer to spend your time, the fact remains that Bitcoin is a currency. Trade is necessary for both a healthy economy and, perhaps more importantly, recruitment of new users.

III. Mud-slinging

We all disagree with each other. If we didn't, we'd have nothing to talk about. But disagreement does not have to translate into insults.
Ad hominem reasoning not only fails to provide any result of worth for either involved party; it poisons the general topic of discussion and makes the thread useless for any future or current readers. One simple insult can create multiple threads of incoherent flaming.

IV. Baseless Accusations

These threads tend to sound like tabloid articles. Inciting headlines, extravagant claims, and no logical evidence whatsoever to back them up. If you have a serious accusation and want results, please make a factual claim and back it up (Example). Factual and civil trade disagreement threads have a much higher rate of resolution. Remember, whether the counterparty is a scammer or not, they are a human being, and a successful dispute resolution is much more likely if you treat them like one.

V. Fear-mongering

This sometimes goes hand-in-hand with the above, but sometimes not insomuch an accusation as chaos-inciting content, often simply links to other threads with an eye-catching title attached. First of all, we do not need multiple different threads to discuss the same thing. Second, if you're going to make extravagant claims, at least take the time to make them yourself.

VI. Utterly Nonsensical FUD

Also known as spam. I receive quite enough of this in my email inbox. If you don't have anything useful or intelligent to post, don't post. It's as simple as that.

VII. Mob Mentalities

Also known as the 'exponential thread growth problem'. Don't take what other people say at face value, and don't simply repeat other's sentiments. All of you have something unique to contribute to discussions. Contribute it!

VIII. Xenophobia

This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as?

IX. Addendum: BS&T

First of all, I will admit that I am most certainly not an unbiased observer. I did my research and invested into BS&T. I have no factual conclusion as to whether it is a Ponzi or not, nor do I think I have enough expertise to surmise a claim. But, regardless of whether BS&T is a ponzi, an innocent company investing in third-world medical care, or an elaborate hoax conceived by Bernie Madoff's hitherto unknown twin, endlessly fretting and arguing about it will accomplish nothing whatsoever.

Those of you with convinced BS&T is a Ponzi scheme, I'm glad you're being cautious with investment. Please refrain from starting hundreds of separate threads stating nothing new whatsoever. Perhaps it is a scam, perhaps not. I know some of you have far superior wisdom which you are ever eager to share, but us mere mortals are still capable of intelligent analysis and decision-making. If BS&T truly is a Ponzi, somehow I suspect we will notice.

X. Conclusion

I'm just some nameless forum member writing another rant, albeit perhaps not on one of the usual subjects. All I ask is that you read and think upon it. Perhaps this won't make any difference. But it certainly wouldn't have if I didn't write it.

Best regards,
BinaryMage

It's back up now.

Hmm? Are you selling NYAN.C shares at 0.90?

Anyone else not having deposits show up? 11 confirmations, but no change on GLBSE, even after clicking "Check for deposits".

CloudFlare "Website currently unavailable" page on both the EU and US servers. Any information, Nefario?

Edit: Fixed, thanks for the quick response.

Glad to hear that.

yup cannot cash out, the money has not been returned yet.


I'm sure your sympathy is appreciated, but whether this is a loss or not is not yet certain.

PPT.DIV is now effectively worthless, so that will drop the value a bit. As long as Pirate returns the coins, the NAV shouldn't be too detrimentally affected, but the interest rates will most likely decrease, depending on what usagi does with the coins from bought-back pass-through bonds. Speaking of, do you have any preliminary plans at this point, usagi?