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1641  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Do you blame someone for your gambling losses? on: April 28, 2023, 05:48:20 PM
Should not be.
The only person responsible to both winnings and losses, is only oneself unless an instance like a friend of yours gambled your money without your permission. This is also evident to those people who copies other people's bet wherein if the outcome is negative, they tend to indirectly blame other people. For sure we are all aware of the risk involved in gambling; losing is more often the outcome unless you are that lucky to be on the other way around. Nothing is certain in gambling which is also why risk management is need in particular with the amount you are betting in order to avoid regret afterwards or blaming other people.
1642  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Little Bitcoin investment becoming something else on: April 27, 2023, 11:50:45 PM
Before going further i will appreciate if you read my previous post Stated " How I decided to buy some fractions of BTC after discussion with members". Since on February 2, 2023 I bought some fractions of bitcoin with just NGN33,000 then which was approximately 0.001848BTC in turns of NGN37,657 almost about NGN4,657 increase (profits) do you suggest I should hold or take profit?
Usually i don't know what the market may looks like in the next 1 months to come, I missed selling at $31k since I was thinking it will gets to 40k but the market keep scaring me and you know emotion is being attached to this so I have to run down here to seek the best opinion on what to do comparing my condition as young mother who needs money for my up keep, since i don't like bothering my husband for money so i believe i can make out something good from here.

Any suggestions given here will be quickly implemented because I know we have more bitcoin lords here.
Depends on your satisfactory. If you are already okay with your profit then it would be fine selling at this point but if you want more, then learn how to endure market price downfalls. There are even speculations that the market price would fall down til $24k and even $12k. Although those are just assumptions but just what if the market price actually fall that low? Would you be able to endure and be positive about it? 'coz if not that's the answer already. On the other hand, you may take profit for now and wait for a lower market price to enter again but eitherway would require patience as an investor. At the end of the day, our decisions with our investments are in our hands; we have full control of it.
1643  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: Any advice for invest my first 600$ in altcoins? on: April 27, 2023, 11:28:39 PM
If you can DCA then that would be good; choose for altcoins having large volume and wait for the 'dip' in their market price. But if you can't, you may invest on the big names in this industry to atleast lessen the risk of losing money from coins which are becoming dormant for a period of time. Also, learn efficiency; diverysify your money if you needed to. Putting all of it in one bucket would be risky. Invest on knowledge as well before actually starting your journey. Sometimes it is not really whether bitcoin or altcoin you would invest your money but your state of knowledge as an investor whether you are ready or just hoping for things to happen in accordance to your will.
1644  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Maybe I should wait before owning my bitcoin on: April 27, 2023, 11:11:29 PM
My desperation after becoming plus one here to own my bitcoin has grew in a week. The first journey was to look for the best wallet to use and Electrum becomes my choice. The account has been opened and I wait impatiently for my salary to enter this week to buy the first set and keep it.

On the second thought, I checked the chart of bitcoin to know if it's safe to buy immediately. My trading experience is weak but not so bad that I can't read the chart. The chart shows bitcoin is still going down, that made me rush to tradingview advice to be sure. The monthly advice shows that I should wait.

The reading of Neutral has more vote of 10 than the Sell that has 6 and Buy that has 8.

I will let this be my guide, will wait till the Buy has the highest vote. Money investment need to be carefully planned. This is just my plan, you can advice or give it kudos.



Better safe than sorry.
If you are a long term trader it would be fine entering any price point but ofcourse who doesn't want to make your decision on investment, efficient. For sure you'd earn more from waiting for a lower market price as to how you read the chart. Problem here is missing the uptrend if you will be too patient; expecting a downfall til $10k but happened to have a pivot on $24k. Would be fine if you would manage to cope up with the increase, but what if you did not? Buying halfway through pumps would be a gamble already 'coz prices could fall in an instant. And as we can normally see, once you chase the market trend you'd be easily frustrated.
1645  Economy / Economics / Re: What class of an investor are you? on: April 27, 2023, 10:44:05 PM
I agree that there are those types of investors who classify themselves as angel investors, venture capitalist,1 etc. But before they become all of these types of investors, from my own perspective, I have put them into some classes. It is not an exhaustive or an elaborative list but at least, you get the idea of where I am driving at.

Class of Investors to the best of my understanding

New Investor
These are friends and family members who are willing to contribute a small quantity of money to your company.

The Ponzi scheme Investor
One who invests in ponzi scams continuously is this. This is the person who thinks about get-rich-quick schemes.

The researcher investor
The researcher investor wants to conduct thorough investigation before deciding whether to invest.They might even decide against investing altogether since, if you wait to make a decision until you know everything, you might never invest.

The Wealthy Trader
This one has had a number of profitable investments over the years. They are knowledgeable, experienced, show expertise.

What class of an investor are you?



1. https://www.investsmall.co/the-different-types-of-investors-what-kind-are-you/amp/
Probably the researcher investor 'coz it is money we are talking about and ofcourse not all people could actually endure losses, therefore it is not surprising to know that most of us are reading and researching about something we are interested with, to invest. It is simply our way to reduce the risk of losing and also to avoid ponzi or fraudalent projects. But I think there is another type of investor; ride the hype. Sometimes we tend to invest on things which are quite making a noise in this industry and results are most of the time positive. This is because of popularity which creates a demand. Just happens that projects of such are only good in short run.
1646  Economy / Economics / Re: marry rich: marry fiat rich or crypto rich, which is better? on: April 27, 2023, 06:03:14 PM
If you're okay with depending your future to other people then eitherway would be fine. People who became rich in crypto won't be certain of themselves being rich for the rest of their life given how volatile market prices are. In terms of fiat investors which are more likely related to stocks and properties would be exposed as well to risk in many forms. Eitherway, I'd say it would be better to be rich on your own because that would safeguard you from discrimination which could take place anytime between the relationship; one would brag about his 'house' contributions while the other would be blaming his/her sacrifices, with age. Help yourself first because no one would come just to rescue you, as a wake up call
1647  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What went wrong with bitcoin! Reply on: April 27, 2023, 05:16:09 PM
1. When introducing crypto to anyone let them know you're not responsible for anything contrary.
I think it's well understood by the crypto-community. Every person who's watched literally just one video about cryptocurrencies, must have heard the repeatedly noised "this is not a financial advice".

2. Tell them you don't control the price, the system does.
Um, what? Sane people don't need to hear that to know that the price might fluctuate. Obviously a single individual cannot control the price, unless he's some multi-billionaire. Lol.
Bitcoin's market value is not controlled by any individual but rather, the majority. Problem is, majority has different opinions with regards to market prices of cryptos not only Bitcoin. We have this group called 'whales' which are basically huge investors of this industry, wherein mentioned group could temporarily create a trend because of high market volume. With regards to prior information about this industry, things won't be as easy as it may sound.  Decline on market prices are simply a part of market price volatility because of factors affecting such variable. There are just people who has high hopes because of the impression created from this industry.
1648  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: The psychology of betting..... on: April 27, 2023, 04:18:24 PM
As humans, we are conditioned to look for patterns in life and we gamblers try to make predictions based on what we see, while we are gambling. The reality is that these patterns does not exist, but we like to pretend that they do because it helps us to bring order to the chaos that are gambling.  Roll Eyes

Some people seem to think that your bet size will increase your chances to win, but that is simply a myth. The reality is that it simply means your payouts will be bigger when you do win.
To be honest, I don't trust gambling, but I like to gamble in football, because this is a sport that I like and has its own challenges when placing bets on certain clubs. In the slot gambling case there is no pattern that I see to be used as a reference for gamblers, because the available format is only spin and increase the number of bets.

Poker is also one of the interesting gambling compared to the slot, but I can understand everyone has different tastes, as far as I know there is no specific formula in gambling because we often rely on instinct and hope for luck.
Depending on gambling in the first place is never a good thing. Betting some would be fine as long as you can bear losing. No matter what game you engage yourself with, whether cardgame, dice game, sportsbetting and such; winning won't be certain. So choose what would give you enjoyment atleast, 'coz that would make your bets more worthy. What makes gambling bad in the first place is gambler's assumption of getting rich in an instant. This is more likely because of stories wherein players have earned huge reward from playing, without considering how much that player have lost during the 'run'. Everything would be based from luck or one's fate.
1649  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: The madness of gambling addicts. on: April 27, 2023, 03:34:20 PM
Well, they aren't called addicts for nothing. If there's no money to gamble and there's an urge to their mind, for sure they'll gonna take the risks just to satisfy their wants. Do you think it's psychological or an emotional need that gambling addicts tend to do these risks?
Just like other forms of addiction, gambling addicts can do anything to satisfy their strong desire. I have seen people in some casinos that gamble with all their belongings until they go home with just underwear. But kidnapping his grandchild is going to the extreme. I think he needs to go through some psychiatric tests to check if he is really mentally sound. There might also be other reasons why he decided to commit such a crime. Greed can also contribute to it. Maybe he wants to stake big so that he can win big. It might also be possible that he is indebted to someone and he needs to pay. He should face the consequences of his action but he needs to go through rehabilitation.
Going thorugh such extent would really reauire professional help. Addiction itself should be consulted to professional especially if daily living is harmfully being affected. Problem is, an addict won't be aware of the state of addiction he/she is into. It is a subconscious response to a drive. Gambling is an addictive activity and the best way is to be preventive, espwcially for the new ones. Everyone wants to be rich and that is an understandable intent in this industry. But keep in mind that in every winner there are thousands or millions of people who have lost too much. And this should be an enough warning to everyone who are having the dame desire.
1650  Economy / Speculation / Re: The Bitcoin market is back on track on: April 26, 2023, 11:51:06 PM
Not to hasty. A correction again occured upon its value reached $30k. We should all know that if there is a drastic increase on the market value, there would also be an overbought to a certain price point which should be a warning that its price could fall anytime. It will only be for long term if the price is slowly but consistently increasing. Simply, these concepts are part of its market volatility.  On my end, I do still think that the uptrend will be starting next year still because of Bitcoin halving which is a more valid and stronger reason to sustain an increase unlike with nowadays wherein market manipulation is more of the reason to why the market price increases and decreases in an instant.
1651  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Betcrypto.cr bankroll idea| thinking on opening our bankroll for investors $400k on: April 26, 2023, 11:26:58 PM
OP sounds someworth serious and genuine though but I want to get it straight and clear from OP as to why OP should do a fundraiser when there is  up to $500k spear funds available. With a good service promotion and advertisement, you do not need a fundraiser as that alone would get you what you want in engaging with the services of a good signature campaign manager here who can run a campaign to create awareness.

As you have said about your casino being a KYC free casino, it is enough to attract the traffic you want as it is a borderless casino and VPN friendly. Not doubt about that till we see it running.

Once again welcome onboard. I assume this is your official announcement thread since you have made notice of your casino here, you should upgrade your account to a copper member account so that you could upload graphics from your casino sites for first hand view.
Even if he is serious, his offer lacks a lot information that an investor must know or see before they can make their mind if they want to invest in it or not. The very first thing is that there is no mention about investment threshold or anything about the profit percentage or anything, if I was an investor, I would want to see those things first.

After that, being an investor, why would I trust them with my money? What's the guarantee that my money will not just be taken away and I will keep getting profits while my investment will also be safe with them?
Credentials should be indeed shown in order for people to trust the people behind any project. Terms and conditions will be more likely discussed internally covering assurance that no money would be ran away with the project. Maybe OP is just checking if there will be people who would be interested to invest but problem is, how will their interest be built up if there is nothing being predented in a single glance. We are in cryptoindustry wherein personal information is hidden to the masses. And I guess that is an enough reason why many people won't trust that easily and also, $400k is not a small money to put into risk without atleast getting an assurance for the investor's end.
1652  Economy / Gambling / Re: A reminder for gamblers to avoid FortuneJack (ongoing lawsuit, 120k usd stolen) on: April 26, 2023, 10:58:53 PM
I`m surprised. I see the FortuneJack about 5 years at least and i think that it is good casino with good reputation. I played their few times and didn`t like it but i can`t say something bad about it. I hadn`t any problems with deposit and withdraw, the bets counted correctly and i didn`t contact with the support. But it was small money.
I can`t say anything bad about casino or about the OP but as i see they both sure that they are right. In such situation i think that only the court law will decide who is to blame.
Do you believe that the court knows the right answer? It's very hard to tell, there is no such thing as caught in the act when it comes to online gambling casinos, even if their games are audited it still doesn't mean they won't have their way of cheating, you can never win a gambling casino when it comes to what is right and what is wrong, it's their pace, their home, their house, you can't beat them at their own game and there is no proof of anything.

Fortune Jack is not a scam until proven to be, I doubt this can be proven even if they are into scamming, I've never use the casino before and the few ones I use am satisfied with them, if Fortune Jack sucks on your end find another online casino, there are too many options this days.
It doesn`t matter what i believe in. If the OP works with the court - its decision will be the only truth. And, as you noticed, Fortune Jack is not a scam until proven to be. Both the OP and the casino think that they are right, so the court will solve this problem and tell us who is right. We have no other ways to make a decision.
In our country, this is the pressumption of Innocence. But I would understand those people who would already avoid this gambling platform simply because of the impression this instance have created wherein it even resulted into a lawsuit than to be solved internally IF the accusation is true. It should always be the platform to make an adjustment as much as possible but if this is a make up story against fortunejack, this would be a huge problem to both of them. On the end of casino,  through the process their players would leave because of fear, even if they are not yet proven for the mistake and even I guess even if this will just be an accusation there will be a negative image to this platform because of FOMO. On the other hand, once proven for the other way around, for sure platform would make use of all ways to compensate for their loss due to this instance.
1653  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Never Expect Consistent Winnings From Gambling - A Lesson I Learnt. on: April 26, 2023, 10:25:57 PM
A reminder for everyone who hopes to be rich from gambling. But to assume where this expectation comes from, probably because of news or instances that some gamblers won big time. Indeed there are some people who got rich because of this activity but keep in mind that there's more who became broke because of gambling; some were left in huge debt, some sold house and other properties. And this should be an enough warning to those who are still having the same mindset. Also, there are people who wishes to rely daily expenses in gambling which is also not advisable. What if you happened to lose for a certain day, what will you do? It would always be better to just make this industry a leisure and without dependency.
1654  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: There are many advantages to the relationship between gambling and Bitcoin. on: April 26, 2023, 01:36:03 PM
Crypto in general has advantages in gambling infustry. One main reason is accessibility; we all know gambling is restricted to many countries and this chain is promoting anonymity with users which allows them to access, play and avoid taxation. With regards to transaction speed, I think this technology is fair enough but I doubt with transaction fees especially for huge names in this industry such as Bitcoin. Let us be real, we often use other alternative cryptos to lessen the fee from moving to one chain to another.
Can you tell us another advantage of opening an account in a Bitcoin Sportsbook?

It’s useless the decentralized feature of the coin you are using on gambling if you are depositing it on centralized casino because they got your IP and personal information once you undergo KYC so I don’t see at an advantage.

One advantage on using Bitcoin Sportsbook is you can enjoy the fast deposit and withdrawal and also your bankroll keeps growing once Bitcoin price pump. It’s a win win situation if you won your bet and the price of Bitcoin pump at the same time which doesn’t happened if you are using useless fiat.

On the same time, there are also some chances that the opposite thing will happen because the value of the crypto you're using will depreciate at times instead of pumping. So, aside from those advantages mentioned, there are as well disadvantage. But overall, most bettors doesn't really care if their funds will slightly grow or slightly go down, it's the security and fees they care about, mostly.

Most of the gamblers are not that depositing huge amount or if they will they mostly put it in the stable coins. Also when it comes to like withdrawing it they not tend to wait for couple of days or weeks just to withdraw it so there are not really impact on volatility but the experience on it is really different from fiat because even that cents has still value when it dumps or pumps
It's not even about depositing huge amount or doing it in stable coin, hard core gamblers don't really care about the dollar value of bitcoin when their mind is set to use the bitcoin for gambling, and also, let's not forget that what we give to the casino is what the casino gives back, if you bet with Bitcoin and won, the casino will settle your winning in bitcoin, and it doesn't matter what the dollar value was when the bet was casted, the casino settle your win with the amount you won in bitcoin, and not its dollar value.

So price fluctuations of bitcoin and other crypto assets isn't really a disadvantage in terms of gambling.
To big investors, yes they won't care that much with that but speaking in general, small ones are more in quantity right? And ofcourse crypto volatility would matter because it would somehow create a double bet (not to exaggerate) because they will be needing to consider changes with the market price of the crypto they are using, while also minding their bet.
1655  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: How do you stay updated on: April 26, 2023, 12:57:51 PM
I start developing an interest in Boxing and UFC matches when I visited a relative, he is so into these types of sports and he seems to know a lot about it, by I have to keep myself from asking him what and what I should do to know more about such sports, I have this in mind to be able to make some bets or gamble on such sports, my problem is I don't know how, if anyone is into such sports where should I begin? Any special UFC or Boxing platform where I can read news and updates about such sports?

How do you bet on such games? What are the things to be on the lookout for? Because I believe this is different from football ⚽, I also don't have access to satellite dish like my relative does, this is how he is able to get the best out of these sports.

what information can you give someone like me?
Sports pages in social media platforms would be enough such as ESPN and NBA. They are always giving updates regarding news related to most of the sports. Also, if it is boxing, you may follow your biased foghters to know more of them if you really want to be that updated 'coz for sure you won't be betting to all foghts, you'd be choosing only those you would want to. In terms of basketball, NBA is now on playoffs therefore teams would be limited only to a specific number wherein you can follow as well their page franchise to be updated. Bottomline is, social media platform is a wide space and is providing more updates than with the TV nowadays. Only choose those who has credentials to acoid misinformations.
1656  Economy / Gambling / Re: Which are best stake alternatives on: April 25, 2023, 10:40:37 PM
Which are best stake alternatives
I search for good casinos with similar original games
There are a lot of sites which you may choose. You can visit the forum and check those easily and you will be able to understand very easily which is suit for you and which you may choose as the alternative of stake. All the user does not prefer stake and many a user does not like the site. So, you should check which you may use.
There are other reputable gambling sites which could be an option if you are just trying to find a good one. Bottomline is how you would define a "good" gambling platform. Also, I quite not get the point of getting an alternative to a specific gambling site. Like why? If you have liked something from a particular gambling site, then why do you need to move away from it and choose an alternative wherein you could engage into it in the first place? Unless a different game is not available to that mentioned platform, it would be acceptable. But the reason why I am suggesting the actual gambling site is because of atleast the reputation; you won't make it a basis if it is not really hitting your standard.
1657  Economy / Gambling / Re: What is a web3 casino for you? on: April 25, 2023, 04:40:04 PM
Lately we have seen a lot of online casinos that are considering themselves as Web3.0 but in reality it’s just a name, they don’t over a real Decentralized experience for players.
So i want to know from you what’s are all the features an online casino should have to be considered as a web3.0 casino?

At first, some people claimed that web3 is different from web3.0, I disagree with this because Wikipedia even said it's same, web 3 or whatever you want to call it have everything to do with decentralization, the funny thing is some centralized blockchain projects are calling themselves web3, I don't know what they have in mind, it's like making a fool out of every crypto investors.



I hope that image clears some facts about what web3 is all about, now web3 with an online casino might work out only if the dev or casino owner decide to support the claim ( Decentralization ) this mean that there will be no need to ask customers for KYC or any form of identification.

Now the problem is, will the FED, SEC, LAW, Authority or whatever allows such a company to run their business? I doubt it will happen, unless the dev or owner decides to approach the same step that Satoshi Nakamoto took.
I actually percieved it as a more diversed web than what we are used to. It involves different chains and platforms which works under 3.0. So it is indeed like a typical gambling website just covering different chains when it comes on payment and transactions, which on the other hand, makes it modern. No other trait would require an existing online platform to be a web 3.0, other than being a wider network, I guess. Quite self- explanatory but since it involves decentralization and blockchains, its biggest advantage is avoiding taxes on each transaction which could be more beneficial for players especially those who bet huge amount and are winning big time as well. Whether sec and other orgs would allow it or not, for sure there will be this bases for them to balance things out fair for consumers, the law itself, and capitalists or owners of these platforms.
1658  Economy / Gambling / Re: Is something big happening behind the scenes that no one is talking about? on: April 25, 2023, 03:44:00 PM
As far as I can see, there is nothing wrong with the stakes, their policy is that they can change it anytime, no gambler can complain about that, and you don't seem to know that. In addition to that, it seems that what Stakes did was also okay because instead of removing the bonus for their qualified gamblers on their gambling platform, they still kept it even though they knew that the allocation they had for that had decreased. Therefore, they still really prioritize their community gamblers to be honest. But this was just my thoughts and opinion only.
You clearly didn't understand what the thread is basically about, it's not just about Stake, but it's about all the casinos and their licensing authority since there is news in circulation that the authorities are investigating the licensing firm and at the same time, casinos are cutting down bonuses and there might be some relation between the two events.

But it's all assumptions and no one really knows what's the case. Of course, casinos can change their policies any time they want by informing their customers about it, but a sudden change of bonuses will surely raise questions among the community.
But that's the point already regardless of the actual reason we know nothing about; a casino could make changes if for them such decision would contribute to overall growth of the casino. Whether their reason has something to do with existing issues, we won't know unless they tell us. But Licensure of gambling sutes, as far as I know, depends on the executives of platforms. On many countries, gambling platforms are accessible especially with the help of cryptocurrencies. I do get the point; changes could be alarming to players who got used to such offer but as players we do have options to take; wherein to stay or not. That's just how simple things work. Creating or supporting FOMOs on the ither hand won't work either.
1659  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: I am only trying to stay safe by gambling less on: April 25, 2023, 02:14:57 PM
Investing in Bitcoin will not make your capital went to 0 because even Bitcoin suffering bear market, the price will not ever hit $0. While gambling it will make your capital went to 0 because the winner takes all.

Those kind of people are tend to confuse trading, investing and gambling, even though all of them have ing in the last three characters, but they're different from each other. It's better to not argue about it because if you win you will not get anything, if you lose you will not lose anything.
Everything has risks. It happened that what makes gambling, "gambling" is because of risk. Investment, trading, and gambling has all the risk which confuses people. The only difference is that risk can be mabaged more on investment and trading more than gambling because strategies work more, than relying solely with luck or one's fate.
Famz, drop your opinion on this, would you categorize these two as gambling? Because the only winning factor from Bitcoin investment is to just buy low and wait for a high price, it's not the same with casinos. Am I not making sense? I will like to hear from you.

Obviously the two are not same and we can't compare profits from investing in bitcoins with profits from gambling at a casino. First of all casinos are private companies that offer games where we can make a profit if we are lucky. All the risk and rewards are known before and there is controlled environment where the games are being played. Everybody who is 18 can sign up at the casino and start gambling, but once we lost our money it's gone. There is no chance to recover our initial money, except if we deposit more money. Bitcoins are completely different, they are not being owned by one private company that sets an artifical price for it. Bitcoins are traded every day and the price moves and as long as we don't sell our coins we are not realising out losses. We can just hold our bitcoins and wait for the price to recover.
Once your money is lost in investment or trading, things would be the same; you'll have no insurance from your losses. Things are relative with one another and that is because of the word "risk".

Gambling less would indeed make you safe from addiction because your expectations would as well be managed making you less determined to win big time in such activity; which should be everyone's mindset in the first place. You are on the right path from doing so.
1660  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Politicians behind the development of gambling platform on: April 25, 2023, 01:26:36 PM
A politician in the Philippines claimed to have had a hand in the development of the very controversial e-sabong platform he operated e-sabong so he can make a lot of money so he can use for the campaign, and his family to win local elections because the election in the Philippines is very costly many candidates are buying votes to secure their win, there were reports that he murdered their family's opponent because of e-sabong.
Do you think that government should have a rule or a law for election candidates not to have a franchise in any form of gambling, in fact, there are a lot of politicians who are operators of illegal small-town lotteries this is to accumulate funds they can use for election campaigns.

Congressman confirms past stint with e-sabong when it was not yet banned by gov’t
Sad truth is, no matter what rules are set, as long as money bypasses everything, they could still run a gambling platform even if their are involved with politics. They can use ghost employees to simply hide their identities and also continue the operation of that platform or site itself. That's just how money works which resembles and characterizes power, unfortunately to some countries. Even if they are caught on the act, they could use money to prolongue the trial process and eventually win the case. There are just many ways to do things as long as they have the drive to do so and ofcourse power to make it happen, both on a positive and negative manner.
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