Bitcoin Forum
August 06, 2024, 12:34:37 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.1 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 ... 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 [829] 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 ... 1478 »
16561  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is getting destroyed on: May 25, 2017, 01:54:23 PM
just needs 20 inputs 2 outputs and already that makes $30~ in fee.
Correct. However, saying that "fees" are $30 is nonsensical and a sign of deep misunderstanding of Bitcoin. Fees are to be expressed in satoshi/byte (or per kByte) and should be represented with:
1) Median transaction fee.
2) Average transaction fee.

if you use the word nonsensical one more time, then someone better buy you a dictionary for next christmas

if you read the context. you will see the OP said
"but paying up to $30 for a $100 transaction would make some BTC users jump to alternatives."

the context was not that fee's are on average $30 now.. nor median now. it was that IF fees continue to rise people will jump ship
i added context (using the byte per tx formulae) to show it doesnt take much to formulate a tx that cost ~$30 in fee.

lauda i understand you cant read more than a paragraph. but things only become nonsense to you. if you fail to read then content of posts to make sense of the overal picture

This again.
It's about the bandwidth, not the storage.
Actually it is a lot of things. A few pointers (they interact with each other at different levels; some are less important/constrictive than others):
1) Quadratic validation time.
2) Bandwidth.
3) Storage.
4) Orphan rates.
5) Propagation delay.


if you cared to check out things..
we are no longer in 2009
we are not stuck with the min specs of Raspberry pi1
we are not stuck with the average internet of 512kbit/s - 3g mobile
we are not stuck with the v0.1 inefficient code.

we are in 2017
we are at the min specs of Raspberry pi3
we are at the average internet of 5mb/s  - 4g, .. approaching the fibre/5g era
we are at the v0.12+ efficient code. - EG libsecp256k1 5x efficient

plus other efficiencies all add up that 8mb is deemed min spec safe.. yep even Core admit and accept as such that 8mb is deemed as 'safe' but they still double cautiously prefer 4mb.

as for quadratics.
keep a tx below 4k txsigops and quadratics is not an issue lauda should ever have to cry about ever again.. nor should anyone else.
16562  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: "Fork friendly wallets"? on: May 25, 2017, 11:49:48 AM
some people have their own personal versions that are tweaked to allow certain changes to be made at runtime to cope with some new proposals.
EG some people running with blocklimits of 4-8mb right now, happily able to accept 1mb blocks but also happily able to accept blocks if the size changes without needing to download new versions as much as devs spoonfed out.

though there is no current version that can be 100% customisable at run time where only small altrations to parameters are needed or 'patches' but oneday when devs decide that bitcoin is viable and not in their mind as just a beta software 'experiment' we might finally get som proper coded nodes that are not relient on the whims of devs


best advice is do not use webwallets to store funds. have your funds linked to private keys YOU have full control over and keep those private keys safe and backed up in triplicate in different formats.

then make the decision if you only care about your funds to only need a lite wallet(spv). or if you care about the longevity of bitcoin to want to secure it against network malicious influencers.. by running a full node, which then requires you for now to keep upto date and make decisions of what you feel is best for the network to help consensus
16563  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The upper limit of makes bitcoin a speculative tool instead of a currency on: May 25, 2017, 11:33:54 AM
to respond to the OP title...
"The upper limit of makes bitcoin a speculative tool instead of a currency"

not really.
the exchanges make it speculative.
for instance code could be added so that bitcoins 'price' is fixed to things like the cost of living index. and the variation changes at a predictable timescale of deflation.

this is known as 'pegging'.

so its not the 21m cap that causes speculation. its the lack of code/rules of trade, lack off fee priority formuleas to ensure healthy utility that causes the speculation

its the lack of rules lack of information, lack of future knowledge that causes people to guess

guess=speculation

16564  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is getting destroyed on: May 25, 2017, 11:17:52 AM
I don't know where did you guys paid $30 or $50 for transactions but last time I paid $1.8 for a transaction with 196 bytes I think.


thats a 1 in 1 out tx. using a compressed address.

now try it where you have lots of inputs (getting paid from different sources) and a couple outputs.(putting it all into one destination and getting some change back)

it soon adds up.

just needs 20 inputs 2 outputs and already that makes $30~ in fee.

so stop taking the most leanest best case scenario. and think realistically at the average case scenario of faucet users or even faucets/merchants themselves that get lots of payments then having to move them

16565  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: ASICBoost and the Status Quo on: May 25, 2017, 10:00:10 AM
I already talked about that, but in as much as the theoretical asic boost implementation is really winning in efficiency (it does, on paper, but the electronics my be more complicated), this is much ado about nothing.

Note that I'm adding the above caveat, because I too, accepted the theoretical efficiency gain of ASIC boost as established, but then some experienced electronics designer jumped in to point out that it is not because on paper, you can save yourself from repeating 25% of the calculations, that you can make hardware that is 25% more efficient, if the householding of those calculations is much more involved (which it is).

So, *under the assumption* that a hardware implementation of ASICboost is genuinly more efficient (with the above caveat), then this is just "technology improvement".  The hard part of this is that there's a patent deposited on it, but it is not bitmain that detains it, it is a core dev as far as I understood.

There's no "cheat" in asic boost, the principle is published, it is just a smarter way of organizing the calculations ; note that the standard way of calculating the hashes is already doing something similar.  The standard calculation doesn't calculate full hashes either for each trial and re-uses previously calculated results.  But ASIC boost is a smarter scheme, that uses the particular split-up of the two blocks to be hashed in the header, to re-use results in a smarter way, gaining 25% in the amount of individual operations to be done (but has more complex data paths).

As I pointed out earlier, PoW being a silly cryptographic protection scheme where the attacker needs to spend *the same* amount of work as the good guy (in most cryptographic schemes, the attacker needs to spend MUCH MUCH more work than the good guy), at least, the good guy should use all of the available technology and knowledge to not have to spend MORE work than the attacker.  This would be the case if miners wouldn't but attackers would use ASIC boost.

Also, if the "fairness dogma" would be that "hashes have to be calculated each time completely and no results can be re-used", then the standard algorithm is already cheating on that hypothetical dogma (which would be vastly stupid given the previous paragraph).

So the only problem with ASIC boost, if it is true that hardware based upon it is more efficient, is that there's a patent taken on it.


the first post of yours i can completely agree with you on.
we should not temporarily halt efficiency gains, by bitcoiners, where by private outside badguys could take the advantage. bitcoin needs to use the most efficient ways to mine.
16566  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: So finally it did was not difficult to dethrone bitcoin! on: May 25, 2017, 09:09:40 AM
Bitcoin can never be dethrone as long as there is a lot of people using it and also miners that sustaining the network. Even there is a lot of altcoins you can see the domination of bitcoin in the market by looking at the price move of the altcoins now and they are mostly dumping because of the price rally of bitcoin, so i don't think bitcoin is very easy to dethrone.

never say never.
because that just makes people lazy, give up trying to grow/protect bitcoin because they feel it can never break.

nothing is too big to fail.
all it would take is barry silbert to tell coinbase and bitpay to release merchant tools to make merchants accept litecoins for instance.

then the swing and snowball effect will take place.

im not saying all 5mill+ regular bitcoiners need to jump up and do something but those that do actually care should start thinking critically at the weaknesses and make them strengths and stop thinking of the unicorn utopian dream of fluffy clouds when sitting on their hands

i am laughing at how most people talking about the dethroning, in regards to market cap.. rather than utility.. i think those kind of people should just admit they dont care about anything more then quick fiat profits. and stop pretending they care about bitcoins longevity
16567  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is getting destroyed on: May 25, 2017, 03:50:26 AM
im laughing at lauda's "free market"

does lauda understand the math of average tx fee... vs reactive tx fee..

the average tx fee mechanism does not drop the fee down to 0 when there is no demand.

imagine for 10 blocks people pay 0.0001.. then a spammer puts in a load of tx's that cause that SINGLE block to be 0.001
now before even caring about what the demand is.. lets say block 12 demand was 0.. the average is already at 0.00019 not 0.00010 or less
so even with no demand peoples estimate tx fee average is suggesting people pay 0.00019 or more!!.. even without caring about demand

if anyone is over 8 years old and has more than a 3 second attention span can easily use excel to do some basic maths and realise the price
does not naturally drop in low demand anymore..

0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000
0.00010000  
0.00010000  
0.00100000
0.00019000
0.00019900
0.00020890
0.00021979
0.00023177
0.00024495
0.00025944
0.00027538
0.00029292
0.00031222
16568  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: So finally it did was not difficult to dethrone bitcoin! on: May 25, 2017, 02:10:48 AM
The second one is proof of work as consensus mechanism, which industrializes and centralizes the system in an industry/customer relationship, instead of a user community.  

you are soo wrong

imagine it like a factory the proof of work/difficulty is just the design template of the product(block) on the production line.

its just template that pools have to create a block in a certain way.

the consensus mechanism is the quality assurance staff/network nodes that check and allow through to the network if it meets their criteria.
retailers(merchants/non-pool nodes) are part of the quality assurance process.. if they dont like a block they reject it. and thus that product(block/reward) cant be sold to the retailer(merchant)

pools learn their lesson fast that they made a mistake and wont get paid and so retreat and make things how the network wants.

please go back and take some time to research bitcoin. it seems you gave up too early and got stuck at a one dimensional view thinking nodes are helpless..
16569  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is getting destroyed on: May 24, 2017, 10:16:05 PM

wait.. will you be saying that when LN starts pushing people into multisig permissioned hubs/hops... which is the only 'gesture' benefit left that segwit is suppose to solve

I used to make fun of ETH and ETC. But it looks like even after the DAO and the ETC split disasters, ETH is much more reasonable than BTC now.

It has a similar market cap that BTC had 1 year ago, so ETH is only 1 year behind in progress, and if BTC doesn't pull together itself,  ETH might surpass BTC.

Same with DASH. People criticize DASH because of the masternode centralization. Well then what you call the Lightnight Network HUB transactions?

look even deeper at the Tier network being created.. top of the pyramid.. bitcoins DNS seeds, oh look majority blockstream maintained.. next down the list FIBRE network. ... then there is the core upstream filter nodes..
then the cludge of filtered downstream, no witness, non sanctioned, prunned, lite nodes.. then the next layer LN

then look when they start tweaking the DNS to not include certain versions(segwit activation) in the dns listing.. it all becomes super centralised.
16570  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is getting destroyed on: May 24, 2017, 10:02:49 PM
Can you believe this bullshit? A bank transfer that goes through 1 million regulatory loops, and it's inefficiently processed in 4 days costs less than a decentralized P2P payment system? It's utterly disgusting.

agreed overall but a bank transfer is no more than a few entries on a ledger they swap around. a bitcoin transaction spreads through thousands of computers across the globe. decentralization costs, but right now it costs too much.

wait.. will you be saying that when LN starts pushing people into multisig permissioned hubs/hops... which is the only 'gesture' benefit left that segwit is suppose to solve. remember core want bitcoin to not be a payment network but just a once a month settlement auditor(bank statement)
16571  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Establishing a New Fiat Currency System, on: May 24, 2017, 08:59:54 PM
fiat money
noun
inconvertible paper money made legal tender by a government decree.

You can't create a new fiat currency system unless you gave banks and governments a real incentive to adopt this system.  Bitcoin is already an alternative currency system and I'm not sure there's anything you can do in terms of fiat.
 

well if you look at how bitcoin is changing. you will see the establishment of LN HUBS... AKA banks.

so under the concept of LN where "banks" are one part of each counterparty LN contract(multisig). you start to develop idea's of how a new paradigm can be created.

ofcourse it becomes less importing for the old 'banks' to remain in management. and new 'managers' take change.
for instance in bitcoin i can see coinbase/bitpay becoming the big LN hubs. aswell as a few main merchants that decide to directly accept bitcoin.

so for a concept of this topic for new fiat fiat, we could see hospitals, schools, becoming the 'banks' of the future
16572  Economy / Speculation / Re: If I showed you this a year ago, would you have believed me? on: May 24, 2017, 06:18:26 PM
but just to ground people



the price movements dont take much these days
16573  Economy / Speculation / Re: If I showed you this a year ago, would you have believed me? on: May 24, 2017, 05:47:45 PM
OP here is your thoughts 11 months ago

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1526587.msg15362317#msg15362317
$3000 is not an if but a when.
16574  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Establishing a New Fiat Currency System, on: May 24, 2017, 05:16:35 PM
theorising new FIAT systems. each idea are separate

starting with the basics. the new money and who deserves it

idea 1
'new money' /blockreward.
this should be used as the public services treasury.
the funds of blockrewards pay for public services as the way to 'trickle down' funds into circulation. not hoarded by bankers/pools. but done as a way to pay for public services without the people needing to be taxed by 20-50%.
EG hospitals, fire/police/social security office/schools become the 'pools'



idea 2
'new money'
this should be used as the public services treasury.
but is not created by 'blockreward' but instead by parents and doctors forming new multisigs as a 'birth registration' when a child is born that gets funded XXXXXX fresh coin which is then collateral in some format to pay for that persons public services (health, school, pension, unemployment) at a rate of say 15-25 years of healthy living.
16575  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What happens to BTC/Alts when stock market crashes? on: May 24, 2017, 03:44:27 PM
unless 2 events happen

network wide bug
merchant services like coinbase/bitpay move to centre around an altcoin.

then just treat the bitcoin price movements as temporary drama.
if the price goes down due to temporary drama dont treat it like a panic, think of it as a discount day

however dont invest more than you can afford.
if you need your hands on the funds within 6-24 months dont invest that amount because if a speculative temporary drama bubble bursts it may take a coupl years to recover.

in short. dont panic. sell what you 'need' and wait for the discount day to plateau and buy want you can afford using funds you dont 'need'
16576  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Money Is Literally Pouring Into Bitcoin on: May 24, 2017, 03:31:01 PM
lol this page is fulll of alot of speculation..

but when you look at the volume of trading and the depth of orders and resistance points you see that there is not much big money jumping into bitcoin exchanges.

most of it is hype, such as 'need to keep getting people to buy before people start to sell or the speculative bubble will burst'

..
as you can see it hasnt taken much to move the markets
16577  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Japanese Airlines to accept bitcoins soon on: May 24, 2017, 09:58:00 AM
Out of curiosity, how about the confirmation which needs to arrive? Is it just accepting zero-confirmation just like some bitcoin payment gateway do?. The average confirmation needs about 15 minutes to arrive and probably some people still have some time to wait for it until the plane's landing, but, how if the fee is just not enough and the transaction get stuck?.

3 practical issues i see

1. budget airlines = people not wanting to spend too much = why would they agree to a $1+ fee and wait ~10minutes-48 hours
2. many credit cards these days (if you avoid the normal domestic (country locked) ones do not charge much
2. many credit cards these days (if you avoid the normal domestic (country locked) ones do not take ~10mins-48 hours to accept payment. its just swipe and go in seconds

segwit will not fix spam
segwit will not fix confirm delays

locking funds into an LN is like locking funds into a contract with a second party (research multisig) you might aswell just use credit cards, bcause of all the cludgy crap core have done to push people into thinking LN is the utopian savour by removing all the benefits bitcoins mainnet had over fiat/cards
16578  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is a good investment, but never a global currency on: May 24, 2017, 09:48:50 AM
So what? 80/20 rule and the rich have no responsibility for the poor also happens now and nothing much bitcoin can do about it.

Pareto principle will only work for marketplace but bitcoin is the good investment for whales or poor. They need to plan the spending according to their economic status and plan the savings accordingly.
$1 fee with no guarantee of confirm in 48 hours (facepalm)
$1 fee = 20 minimum wage labour hours in many countries.. so forgt bitcoin being good for the poor. wake up to 201 reality not the old 2009 ethos/hope.. as thats long gone


It will soon agree as a global currency in future for sure. There is first step by Japan adopted bitcoin as a legal money and implementing btc ATM in their airports and large amount bitcoin exchanges.
ATMs, yea, hope you brought your sleeping bag and a tent while you wait for confirms
16579  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is a good investment, but never a global currency on: May 24, 2017, 09:25:46 AM
bitcoin has value due to the utility of being a currency. take away the utility. then all your left with is a clump of data with no function bar being a clump of data.
its like turning bank notes into bearer bonds.. but.. removing the ability to exchange the owner of the bearer bond easily.

bitcoins utility was that it was easier to move than bank notes.
by making it harder to move than bank notes AND harder than bearer bonds especially with the value of the bearer bonds value was based on how easy to transact those bonds were... will make the value of the bonds deminish. thus same situation occurs for bitcoin

its like gold. although it does not have good transfer utility it has industrial utility. remove its utility and watch gold drop. gold wont hold its value. nor would bearer bonds if you take away its utility

if you think that scarcity will keep bitcoin value.. check out 42coin... dead
if you think that scarcity will keep bitcoin value.. bitcoin at code level is 2.1quadrillion units. LN proposes to make that multiply by 1000... = scarcity=dead

some may argue bitcoins price is going up.. yet if you look at stats.. thats fake speclulative prices based on very very few trades..
in some cases i have seen REPEATEDLY the price moves using just $90 or less.. yep shift the market cap by $32million by spending just $90..
screw it i checked the price movements while typing this
16580  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Miners are obviously scared of UASF setting a precedent on: May 24, 2017, 08:59:49 AM
I notice now that miners are getting blamed for high fees - ironic, because they're the ones that have been screaming for a blocksize increase for years, which would reduce fees but increase transaction capacity

You fail to catch the full irony of that

While they might in fact have been screaming for a blocksize increase during all these years (I don't really know), but their screams should have been very hypocritical, insincere and hollow since they are the ones who could have actually increased the blocksize if they ever chose so. As I said in my previous post, we should hear what is said between the words and read what is written between the lines

1. pools cannot just increase the block size with a click of their fingers... NODE consensus matters!!
as proven by
Code:
2017-01-29 06:59:12 Requesting block 000000000000000000cf208f521de0424677f7a87f2f278a1042f38d159565f5
2017-01-29 06:59:15 ERROR: AcceptBlock: bad-blk-length, size limits failed (code 16)
drama over in 3 seconds.

2. pools did not remove the fee priority formulae or the reactive fee when demand drops. pools didnt add the average fee to keep prices up when demand drops. all of this was CORE, mainly gmaxwell playing with the fee code.

3. segwit is not stopped due to pools. its stopped due to 67% of who CORE chose as the only voters saying nay/abstaining. and when you ask why.. those voters say cludgy code. pools didnt nominate themselves to be the only voters/deciders. again all of this was core, mainly gmaxwell and luke playing with soft exploits

4. as for my harping on about the cludge of the tier network. and also issues about activating segwit early here is gmaxwell talking about it
https://0bin.net/paste/catFu7J9BqL7zsFq#xByDHjK6HYhzmcXXMVgeBX8tYUB6+-9pb14RBxEJVF0
Quote
<gmaxwell> murchandamus: they'd all end up banning each other.
<gmaxwell> murchandamus: because segwit nodes would hand witnesses to 0.14 nodes, and then get punted because things aren't supposted to have wittnesses yet.
<gmaxwell> Segwit is more than the consensus rule, it's also a set of P2P changes.[the tier network]
<gmaxwell> And the p2p parts are already in effect.
<gmaxwell> Because we didn't want to have the p2p behavior suddenly change and light up a lot of new codepaths when segwit enforcement started.
<gmaxwell> (as that sounded like a receipy for disaster! Smiley )
<gmaxwell> Segwit has the bip9 activiation, and a network service type which is used to make sure the graph of segwit capable nodes is not partitioned, and new p2p messages for transfering messages (tx, blocks, compact blocks) with witnesses if they have them.
Pages: « 1 ... 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 [829] 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 ... 1478 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!