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Problem with the server. Hardware, from what I hear. Should be back up as soon as it is fixed.
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First, you edited my OP and broke all of the links changing .org to .com.
Then you sent me a PM asking if it would be ok to move this thread to Service Discussion. WTF? If discussion of the Foundation isn't a good topic for the main Discussion forum what is?
Woah. That is a significant abuse of moderator power. Has hazek edited any of your other posts? Has hazek edited any of my posts? Has hazek edited any of satoshi's old posts? Editing another's posts is far worse than deletion, when it comes to abuse of moderator powers. That is misrepresenting someone else's identity. If true, this is a major breach of community trust. It is the lowest of the low to edit the posts of a flame war opponent. Please don't let this escalate into a fiasco. From what he said, it sounded like his edits were well-intentioned, and I don't have any reason to suspect any abuse of his responsibilities. And I'm saying that as someone that recently had a fairly heated and very public disagreement with him. These forums need moderation, and that means that someone has to have the power to edit posts. If nothing else, the owner of the server can just diddle the database directly. There is a level of trust that we have to take on in exchange for the convenience of these forums. Important things should be signed with GPG before posting. In retrospect, perhaps this post was one of those. |
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The thread title is bombastic and poorly chosen. However:
I believe that financial privacy is very, very important. Peter Vessenes, according to him doesn't share that opinion, and he also doesn't know some technical facts about Bitcoin Anonymity. Taking this into account, how do you think I should change the thread title? You are nuts. Real anonymity is impossible in bitcoin, and difficult to approximate. He isn't saying that he doesn't care about anonymity, he's saying it is hard. |
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That's great! So the 1000+ customers that BitPay has and the thousands more that will someday use Bitcoin will be shut down unless they open and IRC window and monitor what trades are generally going for? There really aren't very many exchanges to DDOS in order to shut down Bitcoin growth and create a panic. It's not like there is real world signage with the price of bitcoins like at your local fuel station.
Unless you think that sign is magic, we aren't looking at the end of the world. Those signs are updated a few times a day, by humans Increases are urgent, declines are meh.. Gasoline is unusual, politically, but can serve as a good example for other goods that are less regulated. In the US, we have PADDs, and 99% of the time, what you pay for fuel in your car is the spot cost of gas, +/- the PADD premium or discount (PADD 4 is almost always the highest), +/- the local refinery efficiency (thank you Pine Bend), and the delivery cost (usually not more than a couple of cents per gallon). |
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wtf do you mean centuries from now?
it's only good until 2120 something
I better correct that before people fill up their flamethrowers. It's only going to keep being created for <100 years  it'll still be "good" and useful lol. Btw my system's not running Linux but don't hate, at least I recoginzed that as Linux from my Redhat training lol. That does answer my Q since I assume that means it's around 1028MB but just so I know for future reference, aww fuck it, I ran a search it's in C:\Users\[your username]\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin\ ...except mine's 2,048,142KB for blk0001.dat and 1,100,784KB for blk0002.dat and 1,030,936KB for blkindex.dat. Btw what precisely are each of those? There isn't precise answer. The blocks are just appended to the block file(s), as they come in. Each node has a (potentially) unique view of orphan blocks. |
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by that time I see an entirely new form of currency and bit coins will be about as obsolete as 8 track tapes.
Check your (physical) wallet. The 8-track tapes are in there. The entirely new form of currency is here. |
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This is the "Hierachy" I mentioned: In principal, I can fork to any other repo and make a BTC 2.0, but how many people will use it? Where is most of the people's trust laid on? --- Senior programmers, since they are the one that know how to "get the things done", they have the dominant power when it comes to programming for BTC, so any others code will be ignored if not brought into main by senior programmer
In principle, everyone can make their own computer, he just need lots of transistors and lots of wire, but these days, there are many things require huge amount of knowledge that if someone has not followed the whole history in time, he will be dropped out due to "Unable to Understand the whole process"
Of course this is still better than those non-programmer dominant the decision making, but anyway when one entity has gained dominance power over the system, then a warning flag will raise: How will the system ensure the power will not be abused by this power user or anyone that close to him? Purely dependant on his wisdom, or some mechanism? The establishment of this fundation just showed how vulnerable the senior programmer is to politics, at least they are showing the interest of gaining more politic influence
What do you propose to address this inequality of programming ability? Slavery? |
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The OP is stupid and ignores the user completely. The userbase is, in fact, in total control over Bitcoin. This will apply even after the "Bitcoin Foundation". The users can simply start Bitcoin 2.0 with a different structure if they wish, at any time.
This is not true, especially when the protocol and client has been modified many times and becomes very difficult to read, no one can easily start a Bitcoin 2.0 In GIT world, it is essentially a Hierachy, where senior programmer sitting on top and make decisions. Bitcoin fundation obviously know this political situation very well and took control of the core dev team First, the original client is written in C++. It was already hard to read on day one. Second, git is not a tree (hierarchy), it is a mesh of trees. You can fork any public repo that you want, at any point in the past. You can then even take new changes and incorporate them into your old tree. It may take some work, if the changes depend on the change that you didn't like, but it can be done, and actually is done quite often. The "official" repository is only official in the sense that the main devs use it to stage and integrate their work. You are welcome to make your own if you want, and you can even have the entire history of the project to peruse. Well, since it switched to git at least, you might have to dig a bit to find older versions. |
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The main danger is if the community trusts such an organization too much. For example- if everyone assumed the client version put out by the organization was trustworthy, then there is serious danger. A group as you propose should probably exist, but the community should remain skeptical of it, and always constructively critical.
I thought of the exact same thing, now is the time to make one or more services which sole purpose is to constantly review the downloadable official client for changes, and alternative clients too. As long as these checks are in place, it should be difficult to sneak in backdoors. Such checks are no distrust, but rather a salute to the current developers, and the very nature of bitcoin. There are discussions of this in one of the other threads around here. Great idea. If I'm not drunk before my server comes back up (they say it is a multi-state outage, so don't hold your breath), I'll write a PHP script to fetch and compare signatures. Actually, I think someone might have already posted one. The problem is that all of the signatures and the binaries all come from the same shadowy cabal of secret developers that operate from their hidden lairs in the logged public IRC channel and logged public mailing list. |
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Please don't troll me. We all know who of these three groups is the most likely to try and push for something malicious and who of these three groups is the most likely to agree with it being bought and paid for and who of these three groups is the most likely to get screwed in the end powerless to stop it.
Next time, cut bigger air holes in your tinfoil mask, or just use a tinfoil beanie like normal people. IF someone pushed for something malicious, and no one but Atlas and a couple of other forum tools even imagine that anyone would, it wouldn't do them a damn bit of good. The people that could fuck you tomorrow are the same people that could fuck you yesterday. Having an advocacy group doesn't change a damn thing. Oh, it's an advocacy group? Well then, maybe they should rename themselves to "Bitcoin advocacy group" and relinquish any ownership of any Bitcoin assets at all. Then I'll be all for it. Like I said, please don't troll me. Meh. Ok, it isn't exactly an advocacy group. But it isn't an evil wizard either. From reference.com, a foundation is: 6. an institution financed by a donation or legacy to aid research, education, the arts, etc.: the Ford Foundation. An organization was created to support bitcoin in various ways. A bunch of people have donated to it. What is your problem with that exactly? If bitcoin was vulnerable to hostile takeover, it was even more vulnerable before than it is now. (Hint: it isn't and wasn't.) Now a bunch of real people, with real names, have put their real wealth and real reputations behind an effort to improve things for everyone. If you don't like the way we are doing it (I'm using "we" to include mere members like me, and donors, not just officers), help us, or start your own. |
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Please don't troll me. We all know who of these three groups is the most likely to try and push for something malicious and who of these three groups is the most likely to agree with it being bought and paid for and who of these three groups is the most likely to get screwed in the end powerless to stop it.
Next time, cut bigger air holes in your tinfoil mask, or just use a tinfoil beanie like normal people. IF someone pushed for something malicious, and no one but Atlas and a couple of other forum tools even imagine that anyone would, it wouldn't do them a damn bit of good. The people that could fuck you tomorrow are the same people that could fuck you yesterday. Having an advocacy group doesn't change a damn thing. |
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is there any difference between the industry membership levels?
The board has two "industry member" representatives, and two " individual member" representatives. The seats are elected by members from the class that they represent. Yeah that's a real cake right there: corporate + founding members always have the majority, very "representative".  So do the corporate + individual members. Or the individual + founding members. This is very simple math. Are you surprised that 2+1>5/2 and 2+2>5/2 ? |
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is there any difference between the industry membership levels?
The board has two "industry member" representatives, and two " individual member" representatives. The seats are elected by members from the class that they represent. |
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Btw, how big is the database right now? It's not stored in the directory I thought it was but I assume my updated but original client contains the entire chain db. Speaking of that, what directly is it stored in for Windows 7 64-bit? Because it uses soooooooooo much IO, I want to move it to a secondary drive if possible.
Also, I know this has massive security concerns but if someone downloaded a client that included a giant 1 year history worth of the block chain database for example, how compressed archive friendly would the database file(s) be?
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2012-09-14 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 987247808 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-15 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1001929255 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-16 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1014553077 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-17 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1026133089 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-18 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1038611622 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-19 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1053155737 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-20 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1067596678 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-21 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1080601402 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-22 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1094006521 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-23 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1105101587 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-24 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1118726220 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-25 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1129992308 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-26 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1142190581 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-27 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1156590441 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
2012-09-28 2097197999 /etc/bitcoin/blk0001.dat 1169408710 /etc/bitcoin/blk0002.dat
I don't keep historic data on blkindex.dat, but it is currently 1079406592 bytes. (Currently meaning right now, not when the snapshot of the block000?.dat files were recorded.) Oh, and these are my files, not the files. Yours might be a bit different depending on which orphans your node saw. I'm not sure about how to move it in Windows. I *think* you can shut down, copy all the files, edit your bitcoin.conf to include a datadir=D:\blah\ line, and start again. Pay attention if you do this, using the datadir= option changes where the client looks for EVERYTHING except the bitcoin.conf. But I'm not sure about that, you may need to use something more elaborate, like a NTFS junction. The default data dir in Windows is %APPDATA%\Bitcoin Sadly, it isn't really compressible in the usual way. Almost everything in it is high entropy, so it won't compress much, if any. The devs are working on other ways to distribute the files and reduce their impact. |
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As Chris Koss pointed out, the average person is going to assume that "The Bitcoin Foundation" consists of the people who are "in charge of" or "invented" Bitcoin: non-Bitcoiners always ask, "So your company invented/operates Bitcoin?" Only a tiny fraction of folks, the ones who are intelligent and thoughtful, are going to think "an institution financed by a donation or legacy to aid research..." The rest are going to think "So they invented/operate Bitcoin." Like 6 idiots on the forums think that, maybe 10, no one else. Do you also think that The Pediatric Cancer Foundation invented/operate giving kids cancer? |
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We'd probably all hop on IRC and the forums and report transactions.
How do you think prices for cars, stamps and comic books are estimated? The dealers formed networks to inform each other of the prices they are paying/getting.
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The Foundation isn't Bitcoin The name suggest otherwise:  "The Bitcoin Foundation" literally means "The basis of Bitcoin", "The setting up of Bitcoin", and "The Bitcoin establishment." Pardon my french, but who the fuck appointed these people to be official spokesmen of Bitcoin? I think most of the negative reaction to this announcement comes from the arrogance of a handful taking it upon themselves to proclaim to the world that they speak for everyone involved in Bitcoin. It reeks of a power grab. There is probably a legitimate need to have an organization of this type but it could have been handled better. Of course, mistakes are how we learn so I guess this will go down in Bitcoin infamy. Your screenshot is clearly from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/foundation. What could you possibly have missed on that page? 6. an institution financed by a donation or legacy to aid research, education, the arts, etc.: the Ford Foundation.
Every now and then, I like to click show/hide on an ignored user's post, just to see if I made the right decision before. Thanks for confirming my judgment. |
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Erm. The general principle in cryptography is not to use the same entropy twice, if you can possibly avoid it.
Also, if you have a problem with your entropy source, feeding that low entropy input back in doesn't seem like it'll help much.
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If people just buy and sell Bitcoins among each other, that's a zero sum game. If someone does that manipulation at a loss (which is what you're suggesting, they have to keep selling even as the price drops way below what they paid) that means they're making every other Bitcoin investor on average richer. It wouldn't be much of an "attack" to make Bitcoin investing a sure thing any idiot could profit at.
Agree with JoelKatz here. However, they could invest money in ASICs and shutdown the network. The attack would largely pay for itself. If someone wealthy wants to shutdown bitcoin right now or in the future, they could do it easily. Do what now? |
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One of Bitcoin's biggest selling points is that it is NOT centralized. I've emphasized that fact when endorsing its use to others.
It's not about "Gavin's foundation". It's about any foundation. The people involved with pioneering this foundation are some of the ones I admire most in the Bitcoin community. That doesn't mean I think this is automatically a good idea. To the contrary this is the first thing I've really considered a real threat to Bitcoin succeeding. In fact, it's a part of the problem of power that these widely-admired people are the ones pioneering this move toward centralization.
EDIT: in my view, any sort of foundation Bitcoin needs for success (if it needs any) should necessarily limit its role and power as much as possible. For example, think what would happen if it did the reverse...
Bitcoin is just as decentralized today as it was yesterday, and it will be just as decentralized tomorrow too. This is a trade association, not an evil wizard. Where do you people think it is going to acquire all of this power to do evil? |
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