Thanks for sharing the video! I like the girl, she asked the core question: Why couldn't we just write off the private sector debts? Duncan said that one people's debt is another people's asset, this is true in micro level, but when it finally reached FED, it is not true anymore. From moral reason FED should not write off the debt (to create unfairness), but from technical point of view, they could write off the debt of the whole society (and create hyperinflation at meantime) And I think Duncan mix the government with FED. Government and FED still have formal business relationship, government can not create credit as they wish, they have to lift debt limit first and FED has to buy their bond to give them cash This is why steve keens ideas on a modern debt jubilee are so interesting. In history during a jubilee debt was written off periodically and debt issuers where killed or force to forgive the debt. Steve has an interesting idea to work with in the confines of the current system (as you mentioned one persons debt is anothers asset). Steve's suggestion is for a modern debt jubilee is to write off the debt of debt holders and send checks to the debt free. This is a way to wipe the slate clean and forgive the debt in a way that doesn't punish the debt issuer. I think this is a 100 year plan. I want to fix the problem not just hit the reset button, but hey if they want to send me a check I wouldn't refuse it. As far as steve not recognizing the differnce between the fed and treasury, I would say highly unlikely, guy is super smart. the reason i don't like Keen's debt jubilee solution is that it's just so plain "ridiculous". it is a perversion on top of another perversion. what we need to do is return to the rule of law and allow market forces to reassert themselves. stop the bailouts. otherwise, you'll just spawn another generation of game theorists who will just reapply "perversion economics" to everything we do. not to mention the rest of us who will just crawl into a hole of fear from an investment standpoint. Oh ya dont get me wrong I do not support the idea. I want individuals to control the money not institutions. Both Richard Duncan and Steve Keens ideas would work and would get economies and debt growing again, but dont fix the root problem. |
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GUYS I WILL BUY YOUR LITECOINS! If anyone is interested PM me. I will pay spot price with PayPal. I want to start selling them on ebay. I am really interested in growing it. I have about 200 customers now that I could be selling them to. If you wont take PP, I will buy with other methods for a lower price. I make my living on ebay so I always have PP it is the most convenient way for me to buy. We have sold BTC on ebay for the last 6 months my store is northoutboards. So mine those bitches and lets get it out there.
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The price will stabilize when there is a competing digital currency. That is why I have been trying to grow litecoin.
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"Do inflationary currencies could cause people to hoard commodities?" Of course they do! Dont you think that during the German hyperinflation people refused to sell of course they did! No, they refused to exchange for currency. The reason they couldn't exchange was because they had no functioning medium of exchange, not because they had an inflating currency. Unpredictable or absurd inflation or deflation can make a currency unusable. (Which is no problem if there are other currency options but a big problem if there aren't.) "Regardless of the properties of the currency, inflating or deflating, stable or risky, since they affect you and I equally" What? I cant make heads or tales out of this comment. If the currency you gave me inflates and the value of the car goes up how does that affect us equally? You got a car that appreciated in value and I got your devalued cash. It affects us equally because it reduces the value of the money I offered to you in exchange for the car just as it reduces the value of the money you received in exchange for the car. This perfectly cancels out. For example, say I have a piece of gold that will be worth $50 more tomorrow. We both know this, and it affects the way we value the gold equally. To whatever extent it makes me want to hold onto the gold more (to gain that future value) it precisely equally makes you want to get the gold from me (so you can gain that future value). Presumably, we both equally value a $50 gain from today to tomorrow, so it should not discourage the transaction -- you want to buy it from me as much as I want to keep it, so we should agree on a fair price for it. Or, for inflation, say I have a piece of gold that will be worth $50 less tomorrow. I will be more willing to part with that gold because I don't want to sustain that loss. But you will be precisely equally less willing to accept the gold since you don't want to sustain that loss. This perfectly cancels out. Or, to view it one last way, say the government was about to impose a $100 one-time tax on cars such that whoever owned the car had to pay a $100 tax on a particular day. (This is precisely analogous to a currency inflating -- the value goes down in the future.) This affects the buyer and seller of the car equally -- they each value the car $100 less before the tax is paid than after. So it won't discourage trading the car, it will just change the price. "I should consider the car worth more units of that currency than you do." This assumes that one human being is capable of processing all of the millions of signals that set price. One person can not know the market as a whole knows. That doesn't make any difference. (Unless you want to argue that unpredictable inflation/deflation creates friction. I agree, it does. But predictable inflation doesn't, nor does predictable deflation.) "It affects us equally because it reduces the value of the money I offered to you in exchange for the car just as it reduces the value of the money you received in exchange for the car. This perfectly cancels out." This doesnt cancel out at all. You dont have the the currency you exchanged for the car you have the Fing car! "I have a piece of gold that will be worth $50 more tomorrow. We both know this" how? how do we both know this not only that but how does every market participant know that? (Unless you want to argue that unpredictable inflation/deflation creates friction. I agree, it does. But predictable inflation doesn't, nor does predictable deflation.) "Predictable by who? Every rise and fall of inflaion or defaltion is unpredictable with out knowing all of the information the market knows. For example a guy in china finds a problem with the code for BTC. HE knows that it is going to collapse BTC. He sells off everything he has got and tells all his friends, So the guys in china are liquidating and the merchants in the US are stacking. |
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With a deflationary currency, people have the tendency to hoard, it is harder for businesses to make money in this kind of deflationary environment.
This is a myth. Do inflationary currencies could cause people to hoard commodities? Does a gas station refuse to sell me gas today because he hopes to sell it to me for more tomorrow? Say I'm considering buying a car and you're considering selling a car. Regardless of the properties of the currency, inflating or deflating, stable or risky, since they affect you and I equally, I should consider the car worth more units of that currency than you do. So we would trade some amount of currency for the car. The properties of the currency might affect the amount of currency we exchange for the car -- it must be less than the car is worth to me and more than it's worth to you -- but it can't close the gap that incentivizes us to perform the transaction. How do you hoard currency? Well, first you have to get the currency, which means you have to produce something of value and trade it for the currency. And then, well, you do nothing. So hoarding is production and mutually beneficial trade and that's it. It's not a bad thing at all. i know that you are respected. So I am saying this humbly. This is complete garbage. "Do inflationary currencies could cause people to hoard commodities?" Of course they do! Dont you think that during the German hyperinflation people refused to sell of course they did! "Regardless of the properties of the currency, inflating or deflating, stable or risky, since they affect you and I equally" What? I cant make heads or tales out of this comment. If the currency you gave me inflates and the value of the car goes up how does that affect us equally? You got a car that appreciated in value and I got your devalued cash. "I should consider the car worth more units of that currency than you do." This assumes that one human being is capable of processing all of the millions of signals that set price. One person can not know the market as a whole knows. "So hoarding is production and mutually beneficial trade and that's it. It's not a bad thing at all." Saving is good. What is happening here is not savings it is market manipulation. The problem that I have with hoarding is that it is manipulating the price and availability. It is a tactic that adds no contribution to forming a real market and inhibits the adoption and use of BTC. People don't stash dollar bills away and think they are " going to be wealth men". It is also a tactic that could end BTC as a currency. Is is all fun on the way up, but you dont see people rushing back into home buying. If you create a market where people are being stolen from and lots of people get hurt with it on the way down people will turn their backs on it. This was from the the op (I think?) "With a deflationary currency, people have the tendency to hoard". This is a hard question to answer because the people misuse these phases. If you mean that the currency supply is deflating, then yes. If you mean that the currency price is deflating then no. |
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It was just sarcastic. I shouldn't do it. Sorry.
No problem. Dont apologize. Shit I dont care. I am used to being given a hard time. I worked in repair shops most of my working life those guys are ruthless, so dont worry about getting under my skin. |
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You have to set the parameters of the scale. What you meant to say it thanks for taking this questionnaire your score was 0 out of 12. 0 being the most rational and 12 being the least.  |
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Thanks for sharing the video! I like the girl, she asked the core question: Why couldn't we just write off the private sector debts? Duncan said that one people's debt is another people's asset, this is true in micro level, but when it finally reached FED, it is not true anymore. From moral reason FED should not write off the debt (to create unfairness), but from technical point of view, they could write off the debt of the whole society (and create hyperinflation at meantime) And I think Duncan mix the government with FED. Government and FED still have formal business relationship, government can not create credit as they wish, they have to lift debt limit first and FED has to buy their bond to give them cash This is why steve keens ideas on a modern debt jubilee are so interesting. In history during a jubilee debt was written off periodically and debt issuers where killed or force to forgive the debt. Steve has an interesting idea to work with in the confines of the current system (as you mentioned one persons debt is anothers asset). Steve's suggestion is for a modern debt jubilee is to write off the debt of debt holders and send checks to the debt free. This is a way to wipe the slate clean and forgive the debt in a way that doesn't punish the debt issuer. I think this is a 100 year plan. I want to fix the problem not just hit the reset button, but hey if they want to send me a check I wouldn't refuse it. As far as steve not recognizing the differnce between the fed and treasury, I would say highly unlikely, guy is super smart. |
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it was good watching that video for a second time. so we agree on alot of the causes and the primacy of debt deflation. Duncan himself says that going back to a gold std is a non starter. but his solution involves contined trillion dollar deficits directed at high tech, such as solar. b/c this is essentially an inflationary strategy at all costs to prop up the ailing system, why is it that you can't understand that Bitcoin may be a solution? I do see digital currency as the answer and i do not agree with richard about the solution to our debt based system. His solution is perpetuation of the existing system. I know that P2P digital currency is the future. I have just been disillusioned with BTC as the savior I once thought it to be. I have also been very frustrated by the inability of the community to verify transactions and prevent fraud. What BTC desperately needs is a feedback system that is clear to see and easy to use and an alternative to stabilize price. I stand by my statement that btc is a manipulated market, that it is in a bubble and that the price swings are not in line with real market demand. BTC is not a commodity, there is no comparison here. It is not a retirement plan, It is not a store of value (or it is very poor store of value). BTC is money and should be used like it. At it's essence BTC is a promise (all money is) and is a promise that can be broken. So sometimes I know that i sometimes come off as anti BTC, that couldn't be further from the truth. I think it will change the world. I have mentioned this on a couple other post, but I truly believe that it can bring the whole world closer together and dismantle the war machines of the world. (i know, a pipe dream) |
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For sure... It is artificially scarce in that situation, Just like BTC. This is an important issue. So if TP was made artificially scarce by hoarding. Yes I would be willing to pay more maybe up to five dollars a roll, but there would be a limit. So what happens here is I buy at 2 then at 4 then at 5, but that is it after that fuck TP i will use magazines. So people are willing to bear the cost up to a point scarcity is not the only factor in determining value. If the BTC community continues to treat a currency like a commodity people will find alternatives. BTC is for spending not hoarding and the guys that do are selfish trolls that are tarnishing the image of an otherwise beautiful idea.
You keep saying that "BTC is for spending, not hoarding", but all bitcoins must be held by somebody at all times. How do you have people spending bitcoins if there is nobody holding them? The TP example is a bad one because TP has a specific use, and as you point out, if the price rises too much for that use case then people will find alternatives. But the same does not apply to bitcoin, no matter what the exchange rate bitcoin functions just as well for its purpose: as a currency to transfer value between people. If I want to send $5 to my friend, if BTC is $20 then I send 0.25 btc, or if BTC is $100 I send 0.05 btc, or if BTC is $0.10 then I send 50 btc. See, it does not matter what the exchange rate is, in any case I can just as easily send that value through the network to my friend, or my supplier, or whoever I need to send money to. |
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That guy sucks. He messaged me again this morning. like an itchy asshole he will not go away. Thanks for the complement. I am okay if you get to know me. |
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How about the quantity theory of money or I should say the quantity theory of credit (money is debt) do you know that? Do you know what milton freedman had to say about the causes of the great depression? That he correctly identified the cause of the great depression?
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100% serious read Richard duncan "the new great depression" read james richards "currency wars" The fed can print all it likes if people dont take out loans it will not enter the money supply. The fed can print but there are limits on the printing too. I would say that i am a free market, Austrian, but peter schiff is wrong about hyper inflation and the gold price, steve keen, nicole foss, richard duncan are right. We will have a deflationary collapse. Tradefortress you so understand what i mean when i say money is debt right? You do get that total debt must always grow right? You do understand that the only way the public sector could cut its debt is for the private sector to raise it debt right? You do understand that understand that all money is lent into existence right? and you do understand that if all debt where to be paid off public and private that money would no longer exist right?
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Because he just joined like a week ago and this was the first trade. Kinda make me angry that within a week he was able to post in the marketplace.
So he got you? right? Damn I am glad i didnt send. Seemed sketch to me. No online rep anywhere, no email attached, prices a little to good, and willing to work with multiple payment methods. Sorry that happened i hate seeing people get f!@#ed over. |
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I havnt used it either, but i will look into it. I would be nervous if I was a seller with large volume right now.
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It needs stable, real, market, pricing and it needs to be treated as currency not a commodity. I will say it one more time BTC is in a bubble the price is way out of line.
Yeah, preferably centrally governed, right? Welcome to the actual free market, stop jumping to silly conclusions, just observe if you are not participating. I participate. I Sell btc and yes I am for the free market. Btc is not a free market it is a manipulated market. BTC temporarily enjoys a monopoly, that will change. The same people who cry about the gold and silver manipulation are manipulating the btc market. Soon... It will crash soon. And we will see who is not participating. I am in digital currency for completely different reasons that the community on a whole. I am in it because I believe in it can be a force for good for all the world. I am so crazy I think it can topple government, financial industries and stop war (very crazy I know). Most of this community doesnt know their ass form a hole in the ground and are in it because they are greedy, selfish, speculators. I am in it to change the world whether or not make a ton of money. BTC is a free market you cant even get f!@#ing BTC. |
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Helicopter Ben and his pals probably won't allow deflation. They seem to have a pathological fear of the 1930s.
I agree that is what they have been trying to do is keep us from falling into a new great depression, but it can not be stopped. Our monetary system requires an ever expanding debt. People get mad about the trillion dollar deficits but if they stopped spending the money we would collapse into a new great depression. gdp last year was about 16 T if we balanced the budget we would have a 14.8 T gdp which would which would kick start the deflation. The only way that we could have an inflationary collapse (hyper-inflation) is if the banks can loan, but the world has to much debt already. There are excess claims on the underlying wealth. So the money sits in the banks as excess reserves. This will all end badly, but the fed doesnt have the ability to force people to lend or take out loans and therefor doesn't have the power to create a inflationary default. This will end like the great depression only worse and on a worldwide scale. There are only two way for governments to default. It will not inflate the debt away it will write it off and when they do the money supply will contract. |
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When the crash comes it will be a deflationary collapse. Gold and silver are not good investments during a deflation event. They are a good hedge for any economic event, but those who think that gold will go to 10,000 and ounce are wrong and even if it did it would be because the dollar lost its value. So if you had one ounce today at 1,600 and it could buy a barrel of oil then after the devaluation you would have gold valued at 10,000 an ounce and you would be able to buy that same barrel of oil. Same thing in reverse for deflation. The best thing is to be diversified to hedge against either inflation of deflation, but ultimately we will have the biggest deflation the world has ever seen. The best investment during deflation is the dollar. I know I know I hate the dollar too, but during deflationary collapse money is destroyed and as more money is destroyed more people default and more money is destroyed creating a debt deflationary death spiral. Where there is simply not enough money to go around. Then you have a game of musical chairs with less and less seats. So who ever is left holding usd at the end has great buying power. The dollars become scarce and the value rises. That is what happens with money is debt. So in response to the OP. When the worlds financial system does finally implode the price of btc will fall. No one will have money for weed off the SR. People will be to busy trying to feed their families to worry what nerds on the internet are doing. |
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