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2481  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / This is why Bitcoin will win ... the speed of credit cards with the cost of cash on: January 19, 2014, 11:15:47 PM
Just one example.  http://shinybars.com/t/paymentoptions

Simplified you have three options:
CC = fast + 3% more expensive
"Bank stuff" = slow + 3% cheaper
Bitcoin = fast + 3% cheaper
2482  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: Residential Limit 15amp or 20amp? on: January 19, 2014, 06:09:44 PM
********************************************************
THE DEATH&TAXES PROTOCOL :
30A breaker, 10AWG branch line, and a NEMA L6-30R outlet (240V, 30A, locking).  Cheap used datacenter PDU with a NEMA L6-30P plug.  "Good for a solid 5.76KW."

We're looking at setting up 2-3 server racks worth of GPU rigs, and powering them all off 220. Each rack will be using ~8kW (possible more), which will be 35+A if we use 220.

So lets say we use 9kW per rack. We'll just do two of your setups? 6x 30A 220 breakers. 10ga wire run ~100ft to our room, and terminate to 6x L6-30R outlets. 2x Compaq 24A PDUs with L6-30R plugs per rack. Then each PDU will power 3 rigs, with 3 of these, and 3 of these. Each rig will use an ATX PSU, and a custom server PSU.

The problem I see is that the breaker is 30A, but is being limited by the PDU to 24A, which if run at 80% load is only ~20A. Is it a better idea to install a single 50A 220 breaker per rack, run 8awg wire to 2x L6-30P, and then run both of the 24A PDUs per rack to those? The actual draw through the PDUs wouldn't change, would still be at ~20A each, but now you've got 8awg wire carrying 40A to a 50A breaker, rather than 2x 10awg carrying 20A each to 2x 30A breakers. Does this make sense?

Although I suppose if we did that, we're really limited to 40A per rack. If we went with the 2x 30A, we could upgrade the 2x 24A PDUs with 4x 16A PDUs. As long as each of the 16A PDUs were kept below 13A, the draw per breaker would be ~25A, and the total draw per rack could be increased to 52A, or 11kW.

So if we're only pulling 8-9kW per rack, we could get away with a 50A breaker and 2x 24A PDUs? But if we wanted to pull more, splitting it up between multiple breakers would give us more headroom?

I also realize that we're going to have to run another breaker for our AC equipment, but that's a topic for another day. And I'm not really an electrician, I'm just trying to figure this all out. Any suggestions welcome!


Edit: you may already know some of this the post became more of a general guide as I kept type.

So a couple things. The first is that in the use despite the common usage of "110" or "220" nominal voltage is 120 & 240.  You should however stick a multimeter into an outlet to find out.  You can test a 120V outlet, the 240V is going to be double that.  Unless you are at the far end of distribution the measured voltage at the outlet is probably closer to 120/240 then 110 /120.  Still you should adjust the power capacity numbers based off your actual voltage.

The second is that the 24A per PDU already includes the derate.  The circuit (30A breaker, 10AWG wiring, NEMA L6-30R outlet) is rated for 30A peak load.  Continual load is derated to 80% of that so 30A * 0.8 = 24A.  A code compliant circuit using a NEMA L6-30R receptacle (proper name for "outlet", outlets are actually on the PDU) is good for 24A continual or 30A peak.  That is why the PDU lists 24A, you don't have to further derate that.  Putting it together with 240V means each PDU is good for 5.76KW of power per pdu.

Third.  I am sure you have double checked but most PDU don't use C19 connectors.  I assume your server PDU is "beefy" and pulls more than 12A?  Just don't want someone ready briefly to be confused.  Almost all PSU have a C13 connector.  PDU have a C14 connector so the cable most people will need is one C13 to C14 cable per device. 

Are there other options? 
Well there are but I think you find any other option is either more expensive or not up to code. 240V, 30A circuit just comes down to the most economical choice.  The used PDUs are dirt cheap, the outlets are nothing "exotic" (even home depot probably carries a NEMA L6-30R is look hard enough) and while 10AWG isn't "fun" to work with it is still a lot easier to manage then the larger cables.  For example the standard connector for a 50A circuit is a NEMA L6-50R which doesn't exist except on paper, as safer pin and sleeve solutions are used. One common alternative is the California standard (become widely used in movie industry) http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=6272 

Yeah that is the plug only.  $70.  A matching outlet is another $50 to $70.  To make a custom cable which converts a 50A connector into 2x NEMAL L6-30 plus the 50A outlet is probably going to run you $250+. Smiley  So I am not saying "the 30A route" is the only possible way to deliver power, I am just saying trust me I did the research and cost per KW you aren't going to find a cheaper, code compliant solution then using 240V 30A circuits and 30A (derated to 24A) used PDUs. 

So if you need <5.76KW of power.  Install one 30A breaker, make one 10AWG run, install one NEM L6-30R outlet, and get one matching PDU*.
So if you need <11.52KW of power.  Install two 30A breakers, make two 10AWG run, install two NEM L6-30R outlets, and get two matching PDUs*.
So if you need <17.28KW of power.  Install three 30A breakers, make three 10AWG run, install three NEM L6-30R outlets, and get three matching PDUs*.
So if you need <23.04KW of power.  Install four 30A breakers, make four 10AWG run, install four NEM L6-30R outlets, and get four matching PDUs*.
...

* I recommend using the APC AP9571.  There is nothing magical about it but APC made millions of them so there are tons of used ones on ebay for dirt cheap.


An ebay listing may say 208V but it works fine at 240V as well (datacenters are usually 208V which is why it lists that).
30A, 24A derated (5.76KW usable)
NEMA L6-30P plug to match your economical NAM L6-30R recptacle.
Has twelve C14 outlets.
Just get some C14 to C13 cables from amazon or monoprice (<$5 ea) to connect from the PDU to each PSU.

If the distance from your breaker panel to where your rigs (and NEMA L6-30R receptacles) is long you may want to consider a subpanel.  How this would work is that in your main panel one or more high current breakers is used and a single run with large gauge wire is run to a sub panel located near the rigs.   The sub panel then has say 6 30A breakers and short 10 AWG runs to NEMA L6-30R receptacles.

If you go another route just remember you can pull the full rated current of the PDU (as it has already been derated).  However the circuit (receptacle, wiring, and breaker) has to be designed such that the continual load is only 80% of the circuit peak capacity. Some PDU labels will list both capacities (30A, 24A derated).  This is why you will find PDUs generally are 12, 16, 24, or 40 Amps.

12A PDU is 80% of a 15A circuit (15A outlet, wiring, and breaker)
16A PDU is 80% of a 20A circuit (20A outlet, wiring, and breaker)
24A PDU is 80% of a 30A circuit (30A outlet, wiring, and breaker)  <- The sweet spot in terms of $/KW installed
40A PDU is 80% of a 50A circuit (50A outlet, wiring, and breaker)

Another piece of advice is to start small (i.e. start with enough gear to fill one 5.76KW "unit").  Speaking from personal experience when you start getting into the tens of KW of power range everything becomes more of a challenge especially cooling.  It is much easier to design a single efficient layout (say half a rack) and then scale out, rather than buying gear needing 30KW+ and then realizing the engineering, power, and cooling challenges are no joke.




2483  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: Residential Limit 15amp or 20amp? on: January 19, 2014, 04:50:21 AM
DeathAndTaxes!!! Nice link .. cheap too!!

Thanks for your contribution to this thread! Where is your btc tip jar..!! I wanna by ya beer!
Ill hunt you down from your site if i dont hear from you! Thanks again.

I don't need a tip (I got a coin or two in the ole wallet.dat), glad to help for free.  My miner days are likely coming to a close so I will need to mine vicariously.

<shamless plug mode>
If you absolutely feel the need to help ...  consider https://bitSimple.com next time you need to sell some coins to pay that electric bill. Smiley
</shameless plug mode>
2484  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Simple Transaction Signing Question on: January 19, 2014, 04:46:32 AM
The handling of tx fee is a pretty ingenious solution.  The tx fee and the miner reward are loosely coupled.

There is one potential concern, since tx fees are implied not explicitly defined, a bug in a client could result in a loss of coins for a user.

For example say a flawed client created this tx:
TxIn0 (value 100 BTC)
TxOut0 (value 1 BTC)
TxOut1 (value 9 BTC)

You just paid 90 BTC as a fee to miners.  Likewise a flawed miner could actually "erase" coins permanently.  If the sum of all txs in a block is 1 BTC and the block reward is 25 BTC but due to a bug the miner makes the coinbase tx 25.1 BTC then the money supply would be reduced by 0.9 BTC permanently.

The major clients are at this point pretty extensively tested so the risk is more in custom implementations or using the rawtx RPC call (which is very low level and will let you do lots of dangerous things).

Bitcoin likely can't be changed at this point however for an altcoin the only (hindsight being 20/20) changes I would recommend would be:
a) make the tx fee explicitly defined in the tx header and thus a tx is invalid if the sum(inputs) =/= sum(outputs) + txfee
b) make a block invalid if coinbase =/= sum(tx_fees) + current_block_subsidy

2485  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: Residential Limit 15amp or 20amp? on: January 19, 2014, 01:15:17 AM
I had the same question on adapters and got some of these http://amzn.com/B004OC579E and these http://amzn.com/B00066HQ50. They both seem to do the trick, though I don't have my outlet installed yet, so haven't fired everything up. They're pretty inexpensive, especially if you have Prime.

While that will work they make cords which have the correct connectors on each end.  As pointed out above you just need a C13 to C14 cord.  It is pretty common in datacenters.   Almost all electronics (like your ATX PSU) have C14 inlet, and PDU have C13 outlet.  So a single cord is used for everything.  Servers, switches, routers, firewalls, etc.

For amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-P004-004-18AWG-Connectors/dp/B003MG9F78/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1390094044&sr=1-2&keywords=C13+to+C14

This is just an example I typed "C13 to C14" there may be (and likely is a cheaper, better version) but the cable one needs to go from PDU to PSU without any adapters is a C13 to C14 cable.


2486  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Simple Transaction Signing Question on: January 19, 2014, 12:42:58 AM
It is complicated and probably better to look at the code directly as trying to explain it in English at a high level abstracts some of it away so while this gets you closer it may still leave some parts ambiguous.  The second image is closer to the correct scenario however remember a tx can have multiple inputs as well.

A hash of the simplified transaction consisted of a SINGLE INPUT and ALL outputs is created, this is then signed by the private key for that input and stored in the "sig & pubkey" portion of that tx input.  
See here: https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/e/e1/TxBinaryMap.png  

Bitcoin has no concept of "owners" or "wallets" so the change output isn't special, it is an output just like any other.  If you are going to create an illustration for explaining then creating one with only a single input is a poor choice because the next questions becomes how to dI handle n inputs where n >1.  An example with 2 inputs is better because 3, 20, or 4,000 inputs are handled exactly the same as 2.  

The other thing you need to divorce yourself from is you aren't sending funds from a public key, you are using a SPECIFIC unspent output of a prior tx as an input.  Yes in conversation we may say "he paid me from address 123..." but when trying to explain Bitcoin's working that falls apart and trying to understand anything becomes impossible.  An input is a specific unspent output.  It is referred to (in the Tx input) by the tx hash (of the prior tx) and index (which output of that tx is being used here).

So in more general form.   Lets assume you have a tx which consists of 3 unspent outputs (which become inputs for this tx) A, B, C and two new outputs Y & Z (it doesn't matter if one of these is a change address or you just happened to pay two different receivers with the exact amount of coins, an inputs is an input and an output is an output).

First the output scripts are created.  The "normal" Bitcoin tx is a PayToPubKeyHash, so likely the user provided you a Bitcoin Address.  This is reversed into the PubKeyHash and a script which locks that output of a specific value to a specific PubKeyHash is created.  The outputs are arranged in a sequence randomly (to avoid leaking which one is the "change").  Lets say Z become TxOut0 and Y becomes TxOut1.  The inputs are then arranged in a sequence randomly.  Lets say A becomes TxIn0, B becomes TxIn1, and C becomes TxIn2.

We now have a tx which looks like this:
TxIn0
Txin1
TxIn2
TxOut0
TxOut1


A simplified version of the tx is created (TxIn0, TxOut0, TxOut1) and hashed.  The hash is signed by the private key for A and stored in the Sig & PubKey section for TxIn0.
A simplified version of the tx is created (TxIn1, TxOut0, TxOut1)and hashed.  The hash is signed by the private key for B and stored in the Sig & PubKey section for TxIn1.
A simplified version of the tx is created (TxIn2, TxOut0, TxOut1) and hashed.  The hash is signed by the private key for C and stored in the Sig & PubKey section for TxIn2.

One last thing which may not be obvious.  There is no 1:1 relationship between inputs and private keys.  For example if you have two unspent outputs to the same address (say A & C) then they share the same private key however they are still unique and discrete inputs so the tx above would still have 3 inputs.

I likely am overlooking or misstating something here so I would double check all this against the code.



2487  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: What's the point of reducing block rewards over time? on: January 17, 2014, 09:00:06 PM
A key component of Bitcoin is a fixed money supply.  You can't do that if you issue new coins forever.  Now you could keep the block reward at 50 BTC and just go 50 BTC to zero like a car hitting a brick wall at 100 mph and hope the network can handle it.  The subsidy halving gives the Bitcoin "economy" time to adapt to being supported by transaction fees.

In theory you "could" have a crypto currency without a fixed money supply.  You couldn't say things like no more than 21M coins will ever be created but on a long enough timeline the difference between <1% annual money supply growth and <1% annual money supply reduction is minimal.  Of course changing the rule after the fact would be unethical.
2488  Other / Off-topic / Re: Just outta curiosity: if the forum was founded in 2009... on: January 17, 2014, 01:12:51 AM
bitcoin.org

2489  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: What happens when mining stops? on: January 14, 2014, 04:31:20 AM
Simple. Mining doesn't ever stop.  As long as there is Bitcoin there will be mining.
2490  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Problems receiving any bitcoin transactions. on: January 12, 2014, 06:41:36 AM
If blockexplorer (or blockchain.info) shows no activity then the answer is simple ... nothing has been sent.

If someone doesn't send you coins there is nothing your wallet can do to make them appear. Smiley
2491  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Anti-Bitcoin propaganda in upcoming video game on: January 10, 2014, 04:46:59 AM
And where exactly is the anti-bitcoin propaganda?  Huh

This. Whats stopping any government from setting up their own crypto currency anyhow?. If the game turns out good I'd happily buy it, don't see any threat at all from this.

What is to stop someone from selling condoms with holes in them marketed to people who want to have children?

99% of USD are ALREADY digital and centrally controlled.  What point is there in a decentralized centrally controlled currency?
2492  Other / Meta / Re: VIP Member "goat" abusing trust rating system on: January 04, 2014, 10:39:12 PM
Taking things a step further, I would argue that there should not be a Default Trust list at all - It should be something that each user constructs themselves.

This.  The concept of a trust web is very decentralized and open however the default trust web essentially undermines the entire system as given the "easy way out" most users will simply use the default.  Now one could argue well it doesn't matter what other people do but that is simplistic.   If a super super super majority of users trust the default trust (because they never decided to educate themselves) then for a persons interaction with those users all that matters is what the default trust thinks, nothing more, nothing less.

2493  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Blockchain Inconsistencies? Blockexplorer vs Blockchain.info Discrepancy on: January 02, 2014, 07:15:47 PM
Can you link to the site because the only reference I see for a "BitCare app" doesn't use private keys, it isn't a wallet, and it simply reports balances based on addresses.

I wonder if this is an "xy problem".
http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/66377/what-is-the-xy-problem
2494  Economy / Economics / Re: A way to lessen inequality in Bitcoin on: January 02, 2014, 06:57:22 AM
No, not leaving that out of the scenario. I think you might be assuming that the average person has hard assets. The majority don't, all the more so after the consequences of the last 5 years. They're who I'm worried about.

It they don't have assets then they likely don't have any significant money either.  People don't just sit around with mountains of cash and no assets.   Cash continually loses value.  Other than death and taxes it is one of the certainties of life.  If fact quite a few people have a negative net worth which means in a currency failure their negative networth would rapidly approach zero (a net improvement).
2495  Other / Meta / Re: VIP Member "goat" abusing trust rating system on: January 02, 2014, 05:58:35 AM
I dunno, as we all know, the Trust system is completely subjective. The best a person can do is post their information and link their sources, and its up for the reader to detirmine its validity.

For the record, I would trust Goat with my money, and find him to be a very trustworthy person. However I agree with not having you on the default trust list, not that its a vote anyway, tis Badbear's decision. Nothing personal, however some of your feedback ratings have been driven by personal fights you have had with people, and not whether or not they are financially or morally untrustworthy. You have helped to tag scammers and I do appreciate that, but the default trust list isn't about who is trustworthy, its about who can give fair feedback to establish a larger trust network.

gmaxwell unfairly attacked my pool hopping operation with a childporn network that only he knew about (and might have even made up!). One might think pool hopping to be unfair but to attack it with these sort of allegations? Wow! 


Wait how did I miss this event?  Using CP as a weapon?  That is pretty low.   I have no love for pool hopper but they merely exploit the poorly constructed rules of prop pools.  A good thing IMHO as it has driven those pools (mostly) out of existence replaced with fairer distribution systems.
2496  Economy / Economics / Re: A way to lessen inequality in Bitcoin on: January 02, 2014, 02:27:38 AM
Put another way, when currencies in a fractional reserve system collapse, only the quickest will get any money out in time. What fraction of those quickest will get their money into hard currency before the real value becomes zero? Troubling to think how many people could be left with nothing. I will not be happy with that situation.

I think you might be equating wealth with money.  Money makes up a small portion of the average persons wealth.  Property, stocks, real estate, etc would still have value in a currency collapse. 
2497  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The SEC Shows Why Bitcoin is Doomed. on: January 02, 2014, 02:18:06 AM
Here is what we will see in 2014.  Companies like circle.com with $9M invested, Coinbase.com with $25M invested and any of the other companies that receive significant investment moving quickly to spend a lot of that money to become licensed in all the US State.

That is possible but they are going to stop all business and wait 6-9 months?   For a license they may or may not need?
By definition apply for a license (a defacto admission that unlicensed activity is unlawful) while engaging in unlicensed activity is not smart.   I can't see any state granting a license to an entity which is operating without a license while seeking said license.  The time required to obtain a license is an obstacle.

Quote
And another issue with NO federal regulator is the there is ABSOLUTELY no list of all the money transmitters in every state that requires licensing so there is really no way to tell.

Not sure what you mean by this.  There is no unified list but pretty much all states make licensure a public record and most (all? I want to say all but there may be one or two exceptions) make these records available online.  If xyz claims to be a licensed money transmitter, license #12345679 it is pretty hard to verify if there is no way to verify.

Examples:
CA money transmitters: http://www.dbo.ca.gov/Licensees/money_transmitters/money_transmitters_directory.asp
VA money transmitters: http://www.scc.virginia.gov/bfi/reg_inst/trans.pdf
NY money transmitters: http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/whowesupervise/simoneyt.htm

Pretty much just google "[name of state] money transmitter" and you can find a list within a link or two.
2498  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The SEC Shows Why Bitcoin is Doomed. on: January 02, 2014, 12:52:30 AM
If I'm reading this right, you are predicting the inevitable failure of Bitcoin as a mainstream financial tool. Start-ups can't afford the cost of entry and power-brokers with deep pockets will crush new legislation, yes?

Well the US isn't the entire world, the rest of the world doesn't really care how dysfunctional the US regulatory structure is.  So I see two potential outcomes (and I should state this is my personal opinon doesn't reflect the views or intentions of my employer).  One potential outcome is that startups abandon the US market.  They operate when regulation while not non-existent is at least not an impossible burden.  The ones which are successful gain the resources to handle the large fixed overhead that MT licenses creates.

The other scenario is startups in the US comply with federal requirements, and are able to grow faster than the response from states; in essence grow to survive.

It certainly is an obstacle to growth, and innovation but progress already routes around the damaged parts of the system.  Bitcoin will survive, however the US may simple lose its status as the "tech capital" when it comes to Bitcoin related enterprises. I am not saying that is a forgone conclusion but the regulatory risk and uncertainty doesn't help.
2499  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The SEC Shows Why Bitcoin is Doomed. on: January 01, 2014, 11:04:35 PM
DeathAndTaxes

You bring up a HUGE issue.  There is no Regulator at the Federal Level for "money transmitters" the "Money Service Business" category that FinCEN put the bitcoin industry in with the March 18th Guidance.

This is some thing the National Money Transmitter Assocaition is trying to address with upcoming "Industry Symposium for Legislative Action - (ISLA)" February 18, 2014 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM EST in Washington DC.

I agree to a certain extent.  I generally oppose new regulation but the current situation is just a nightmare of asinine proportions.  They are less than 100 companies in the world which have licenses in all fifty states.  There is some legal opinion that is is easier and cheaper today, to form a new bank (or buy an existing bank or credit union) and thus bypass the entire issue because banks and credit unions are not MSBs and their national charter makes them outside the regulatory scope of most state regulations.  When it is easier to form a bank then issue a prepaid card for example you know something is wrong.

Still this has been a problem for twenty years now.  Decades before Bitcoin was even born there have been attempts to create a single national license because the current system is broken but all attempts to date have been futile.  The states certainly don't want to give up that power and control.   The existing players who have already gone through that nightmare don't want it to go away.  PayPal LOVES the excessive, asinine regulation.  It all but guarantees there will never be a PayPal direct competitor because the burden on any startup is simply too high and without a startup the risk is too much to dump the tens of millions to jump right to the next stage of the game.   The current MSB/MT regulation is a massive economic boom for the GreenDots, PayPals, and Western Unions of the world.  They will move massive sums of money in lobbying to kill any attempt that opens the flood gates for competitors.

Maybe this time will be different, it certainly is needed.
2500  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The SEC Shows Why Bitcoin is Doomed. on: January 01, 2014, 10:51:45 PM
You also have to look at a companies like Coinbase and/or Campbx.  Two US bitcoin companies that "seem" to be operating with in the law as their companies are still operational.   They must be doing something right.

What is Coinbase and/or CampBX doing that BitInstant didn't?  You are implying those entities have state licensure as money transmitters are you?  If they did it would be pretty easy to verify yourself as that information is public record.

For example CA:  http://www.dbo.ca.gov/Licensees/money_transmitters/money_transmitters_directory.asp

The reality is that at the state level most of the regulation is simply a giant unknown at this point.   No two states have the same requirements, no two states even share the same definition of money, money transmitter, or even transmission.  Many states explicitly use the word "currency of the united states", some doesn't even include "foreign currency".   Some states limit their oversight to negotiable instruments (such as checks).   Does Bitcoin meet the regulatory definition of all states?  Maybe, doubtful but there has been no definitive statement by all state regulators ... yet.  However that cuts both ways, to my knowledge no state has said "exchanging Bitcoin isn't covered by statuatory definitions" either.

Bitcoin isn't just cutting edge technology, it is cutting edge in the legal space as well.  It probably will take decades, and countless court cases to resolve it all.   Most big (and no Bitcoin company is even close to "big" I am talking multi billion dollar company) simply get licensed everywhere it is possible to be licensed because despite the up front cost (eight figures easy) it is "cheaper" than the unknown.   Better to be licensed and not need to be then be not licensed and need to.  That simply isn't an option for ANY startup.

To my knowledge no Bitcoin related company US or foreign has a money transmitter license in all states that issue licenses to money transmitters.  I don't believe any Bitcoin startup even has a money transmitter license in a single state.  Someone correct me if I am wrong with cites from one or more state money transmitter registries.  Generally when seeking a license you are implicitly saying "yes I believe our activity is regulated and engaging in this activity without a license is criminal".  By definition that would imply you need to stop business to even attempt to seek the license.  Generally regulators don't issue licenses who are defacto breaking the law at the time they are seeking the license.  Smiley
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