I don't think BG is denying anyone anything.  He's posting stuff up as are you guys.  If he wants to point out how it's a scam so that nobody here is trying to sucker anyone into buying the stock who might not know better, I'm all for it.  Keep posting BG.

Everyone else is welcome to have a nice discussion like they've been having.  It's good if someone keeps that discussion grounded in reality.  And advises would be share purchasers that there is a legal situation going on and they'd be best to hold their satoshi until it is settled and Ken comes out of hiding and posts something meaningful.

Which part?  You mean the "law" that exists?  It's a law.  Laws can't be broken again just because you pay a fine.  You don't get to keep speeding because you paid a speeding ticket once.

He'd be breaking the law again and again by continuing to operate the fund for unaccredited investors.  He doesn't get a free pass by paying the fine one time.

I dunno how else to explain it.  You might want to call and talk to your lawyer or maybe call the MSD youself and ask about it, they'll explain that to you.  You can pretend you're ZZ so you won't get in any trouble if you're afraid they'll come to your house and take your bike or something.

Look, even if Ken pays the fine and refunds the people who want out, Ken is not allowed to then continue to have shares with folks who aren't accredited investors.  It's like running a prostitution business, getting busted once and then saying, "Well it's cool we can keep running the business this way because we paid a fine."  No, you can't.  He'll get fined again if it continues.

Only Ken said that people can stay in.  The MSD didn't say that.  They said Ken has to cease the shares activity and pay refunds.  If you stay in, Ken is still never going to be able to pay you a dividend. Not unless you become an accredited investor.  That's the law. 

You are flushing all your money away if you don't take the refund.  Ken will be forced to abandon the remaining shareholders by law.

Do you think that he's going to just keep doing it?  My God...  The next investigation would be the SEC that will tear him apart and throw him in jail.  He's not going to risk that to give you a few hundred Satoshi.

The only reason Ken is saying it'll be business as usual is that, well for him it will be but not for you.  And if you don't get a refund, well then he never has to pay you anything. 

You guys are holding onto nothing.  Ken can't get around the law.  The law says he cannot have shares with you if you're not accredited.  Go get accredited if you want to stay in it.  Otherwise, you'll never get another Satoshi from Ken regardless if he suddenly appeared with a miracle chip in hand.  You get nothing.

Also, that 100k value of the company's assets means nothing.  You didn't purchase equity shares, you purchased profit shares.  They are worthless.  Without financials, you can't ever prove there were profits.

Yeah, I've seen that and I know he's working on that.  However, the range of reward to me still seems too high.  If 400 is the high water mark and (I forget what the low is, like 200?)  I don't know how this helps.

You're still flooding the market with too many coins.  I think you can look at API's and take a sampling from every exchange and then conduct an average and build the price into the Blockchain through consensus.  Then the reward is severely reduced when the value of the coin is low.  Or if you can't reduce the reward, tie to difficulty, make it really difficult to find a block if the value of the coin is low.

You might not have a lot of miners there, but that could be adjusted through an increase in fees to make up for the shortfall from the reward.

If your example is the way it will end up being, I suggest making the coin production very small when difficulty is really low.  Give the market time to absorb the inventory of coins that are already out there.   

You can't keep giving away 200 coins every ten minutes (Or whatever metric Hiro uses) when you have people selling half a million coins for 103 Satoshi.  Why even mine?  Just go buy coins, it's cheaper than wasting your electric bill on this.  I get the "Hope for the future" stuff, but you'd help the coin more by purchasing the inventory than wasting time mining it.

You have to reduce the number of coins significantly when the value is low.  When foreign countries have too much free cash, they purchase foreign debt.  That ties the money down for X number of years and provides a small amount of interest to compensate for the lack of investment.  Otherwise there would be tons of cash and inflation would skyrocket. 

Since there is no central economy here, you can't just take the tax dollars and invest the cash into foreign debt.  But you CAN squelch supply.

It'd be better to tie it to the actually value so mining pools can't game the system, but barring that your solution is good but the minimal reward needs to be significantly smaller in my opinion.

Well of course, every coin is worthless when it launches.  But here you are not at launch, you are at a point of massive oversupply of coins.  How many do you all have?  Millions?  So cutting the mining from 400 coins to whatever... 200?  A block is the problem because it's still too many due to the over supply of coins already on the market.

It's supply side economics.  If I run a store right, and I have 10 PlayStation 5's on the shelf.  The value of those PlayStation 5's are going to be very high because there are only 10.  Now if I have 5 million PlayStation 5's on the shelf, not only are they in oversupply and heavily discounted, but you're backing the truck up and saying, "Where can I put these 200 extra PlayStation 5's at?" every ten minutes or whatever it is for Hiro.  Great!  You might as well be throwing them on the fire.

If you want to innovate the coin, tie it to the market.  That market didn't exist when Satoshi was creating Bitcoin, but it exists now.  Tie the reward to the value.  If the value is high, more coins are released, if the value is low, less coins are released.

Sure, some miners are going to switch off because they aren't earning when the value is low.  But there are people like you that mine for the future.  Then there are people who mine for money.  And they will switch off and then people like me will buy up the inventory, which raises the value.

That's when they come back in to mine, and the multipools see the rising value and select Hiro to mine.

You're also stabilizing the value of the coin.  Something that makes all other Cryptocoins scary is that the value fluxuates so quickly that what you buy today could be worthless tomorrow.  By supplying coins to match inflation... Well... Now you have a real well thought out model of a coin, because it is based on value and not some arbitrary number picked by a developer at random to increase scarcity over time.   

If the value goes down, you reduce mining rewards.  If the value goes up, you increase them.  Then everyone wins. 

You can shoot some holes in this, but by thinking of creative ideas like this, we can make an innovative and better coin that people will want to use.  Not just replicating the same crap everyone else is doing.  Satoshi could have stopped at E-Cash and just said, "I don't have an answer to the lack of a central register problem." but he instead looked at the current design and connected it to the P2P nature of the Blockchain and Boom...  We have Bitcoin.  Innovate instead of Stagnate.

Look, I think Hiro is smart and he's going to try and reduce the mining reward so that will maybe help a tiny-bit but the damage is done.  Unless you can really choke off the supply for awhile and come up with some innovations to cause people to look at the coin and start using it because it offers features others don't, this coin won't recover.  You guys will be working on Block Explorers and Android Apps for a coin that is delisted from every exchange and worth 1 Satoshi a coin while you're all producing more of them...  for the future!

I want this to succeed as an investor.  I continue to buy a crap load of coins.  It's probably going to end up being a dumb investment, but it can't be worse than some of the miner investments I've bought.  So I'm taking a chance on Hiro and the Hirocoin team.  I hope it works out.  You guys should really consider making more innovations.  Not just recompiling stuff and skinning stuff.  Zzz...   Hiro did a great job by putting that unique barcode feature in there, but that's not going to really bring in a bunch of investment dollars.  Still, that's the kind of thing the coin needs.  More stuff to set it apart.

Ken can post in the VMC thread.  He's barred from AMC, but not VMC.  He posted in there 11 days ago, he can post in there again. 

My miners are at BA and I ordered the now-useless compensation PSU from Minersource.  I completely expect them to charge me shipping for it when the time comes to ship it because I did not have my units ordered with them.

I haven't asked for a refund because there is a part of me that is a sadist and wants Black Arrow to string me along some-more for fun while I believe that order might turn into something useful.

There really is nothing stopping Ken from fixing the website while this is all going on.  Since he's not done that, and hasn't increased the hash rate of the mining farm, or sold any cards.  What is he doing?  The MSD didn't say he can't run the business.  Just that he can't work as an agent for the shareholders.  So what's he doing?  He hasn't done the announcement for refunds or given any refunds. 

He's done nothing.  He's doing nothing.  You would think that if everything was just fine on the business side, that since he doesn't have to be bothered with the shares stuff while his lawyer and the MSD work out deals, that he'd do something...  like maybe give refunds out or maybe fix the website.

Multipools?  Is anyone even still mining this coin?  It's value is 100 Satoshi thanks in part to me keeping it there from getting any lower.  I have buy walls up on multiple exchanges at 100 Satoshi so the whole thing doesn't completely collapse and get delisted everywhere.  Though I'm not going to do that forever.

Whether you mine 250 coins a block or 400 coins a block, they are still worthless.  Nobody is going to mine it.

So two more weeks before the X3 might start shipping.  Got it...

People who read English poorly...  Please note.

X1 = SHIPPED
X3 = NOT SHIPPED

That is all you need to know.

Can anyone speculate why KNC, who did the same thing in that they took a known design and shrunk it without changing anything, took 6 months to start shipping but Spondoolies is able to do it in a month and a half?

I get that BFL went with some new design to get their power down, so that is why they are super late, and Black Arrow is late because they couldn't figure out how to assemble their miners.  But what happened with KNC that it took that long for them to ship?  It seems amazing to me that Spondoolies is able to do this so quickly compared to everyone else. 

That scammer's wallet is like the 12th largest Bitcoin wallet.  It is probably Coinbase or some other exchange he used to cash it out for USD.

In terms of new mining equipment without coupons, bulk discounts, or back room deals and that is shipping right now.  I think it's Dragon Miners which are near $1.60 - $2 per Gigahash.  This is a rapidly moving target though.  Most manufacturers are not keeping up with the difficulty adjustments.  You need something around $1.30 per Gigahash to break even right now with the average difficulty of 47 percent per month.  (Assuming around 13 cents per kwh.)

But look, 400 Hirocoins is about 35 cents USD at the moment.  Is it even worthwhile to mine this coin?  It doesn't sound like it'll pay the electric bill.

You have to get people to mine and hold the coin, so that they believe the coin will be worth more money some day.  Adding tricks to make mining produce more coins is nice, but the problem is value of the coin.  More coins weakens the value.  And yes, I'm talking about nobody buying the coin because nobody is buying the coin.  That's why it's worth about 100 Satoshi and falling. 

Production of more coins dilutes the value.  You can't get value unless people buy the coin.  Nobody is going to buy the coin if it doesn't distinguish itself as a viable option over other coins.  Darkcoin did that through anonymous features and good PR. 

I'm not saying that is easy to figure out, or really anything new here.  But I am dumbfounded by the continued development choices to enhance the coin around mining it.  Mining a worthless coin is not attractive to anyone.  It doesn't matter how many bells and whistles it has. 

I think you guys want to make the coin a success.  I just think that in order to do that, you need to think more about making the experience better for the consumer so that they will choose your coin.  Provide them some reason to do so.  Not just having a point of sale interface or a block explorer, but features that set Hirocoin apart. 

For instance, and this is just an example and not meant to be done...

One of the big problems with Bitcoin is fraud.  There are scam artists pretending to be real organizations.  People send them money because they are tricked.  Part of the reason this is so easy, is because the wallet address is always 100% unique.

But what if you wanted a wallet address that was a combination of that uniqueness and also identifiable.

Let's say Hiro takes donations.  His wallet could have a public identifier that preceded the wallet address.  "HIRO-1EWsTid9jhS9SWRBahi97vxYZeooExz5yo"

That prefix would be tied to his wallet and his wallet only.  Nobody else could use it.  The address after the prefix could be different and random as it is now.  So one is static, tied to the wallet, and the other is dynamic and random.  So that as the sender, I KNOW that I'm sending money to Hiro and not a fraudster.    In this way, organizations like Bitmain could have BITMAIN-1EWsTid9jhS9SWRBahi97vxYZeooExz5yo  as their prefix followed by one of many numbers.  And so nobody else could steal their prefix and wallet combination.   Customers would have a better sense of reassurance that their money is going to the right company or the right person.


Then you can go around and tell people, "This is the next generation of digital currency, because we have an extra assurance against fraud by design."   


You add features like this, and people will clamor to use it because it offers solutions to an existing problem.  Solve the problems of today's cryptocurrency and then your cryptocurrency becomes the one that people will favor.



I'm done beating the dead horse.  Thanks for listening/reading.

Doesn't this seem counter productive?  If people stop mining, and the remaining miners get less coins, they will have little incentive to continue mining, so they will stop and move to another coin that is more profitable.  Hastening the leave of the remaining people mining because they will get less and less as more and more people leave.

The opposite being, that since it produces more coins if you mine on it with more hash, that it will dilute the value further and make the existing coins worth less. 

It's the worst solution I can imagine.


I think too much effort is being focused on getting people to mine the coin.  The miners don't make the coin valuable.  The miners just dump the coins for cash to pay for expenses.  If you want to improve the coin, you have to make consumer focused features.  Give people a reason to use the coin or hold the coin.  Otherwise you have people just mining worthless coins.  Might as well just release all of them to everyone in a lottery and save the environment the wasted electricity.

You'd be better off providing the "bonus" to people who hold coins.  That will at least improve the scarcity of the coin and make them more valuable. 

I can print paper coins on the copier all day, but they are still worthless. 

Mining is affordable if miner manufacturers lower their prices.  Everytime the difficulty rises by X percent, the manufacturer needs to lower their price by an equal percentage or risk being priced out of the market.  The hardware company that can best afford to adapt to that is the one that will survive.

I think at the moment there are some realistic concerns that Black Arrow should address for its customers.

The first is the mystery surrounding compensation and the extra PSU's and shipping charges.  If they are that close to shipping as they say, this needs to be addressed.  People need to know what they need to know.  David and anyone else that monitors this forum should start to ask about this, because while shipping is important, people want to be sure they have ordered the necessary hardware and paid the shipping if that is what is needed.  Or if Black Arrow intends to compensate people further by including those things in the release, they need to let people know who have already purchased the PSU's and are now wondering if that was a mistake.

This needs answering.  It's important.

The obvious requests for further compensation above and beyond what was already promised is warranted based upon Black Arrow's own promise to match the value of what they ship vs the competitor's shipping.  This was not just mentioned way back in 2013, but also recently.  Black Arrow intends to live up to that promise, so if they make their shipping dates as expected, it's time to state what it is they intend to do.  People want to know, not just out of interest, but also because as miners we make strategic purchases to keep our hash-rate up.  If we're going to get more or less hash from Black Arrow, we need to know so we can plan our next moves.  

So it's time now for Black Arrow to discuss their compensation plan to live up to this promise, or just admit that they cannot afford to do more than they have, and live with the consequences.  The issue isn't going to go away, but it could bring about better customer morale if we hear about what the plan is going forward.

There are other questions on the table, but these two are the most important in my mind.  A lot of us have been very patient (A few of us have not been) and it's time for Black Arrow to provide the needed information.  Nobody wants to get a box in the mail with missing parts due to lack of information.

They don't have jurisdiction to do anything to you if you don't live in Missouri.  They aren't a Federal agency, so even if you live in New Mexico, they can't do anything to you.  They can, however, force Ken to refund you regardless of where you live because the business operates in Missouri.

It's also not illegal to invest in what you thought was a legitimate security.  There is no law that I can find that says it's illegal to purchase an unregistered security.  It's not even illegal to sell them but you are only allowed to sell them to accredited investors.  (Folks with a high net worth.  Or shares of stock pre-IPO to employees, etc.)   

Generally, unless a judge blocks it, court cases brought by the State are public.  Your information will become part of the public record.  And that means whatever information you provide will be shared with the court and eventually with the public (If it was submitted to the court).  Or in some cases it can be gained through a freedom-of-information request or other court order.  So don't provide information that you don't want the world to know about you.  Otherwise, I believe you'll be perfectly fine contacting the MSD.  They are trying to protect you from having made a bad investment.  They are not going to waste money investigating you for buying Alpaca socks with Bitcoin and not paying taxes on it. 

July 7th 2014