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321  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Mastercoin2 – Can Mastercoin1 even work long-term? on: October 29, 2013, 08:10:23 PM
Please give me a concrete example of how the following could work:
I am a business and issue gift vouchers, that I want give out via mastercoins. I value a gift voucher at 10$ in my store and want to issue 1000 of them. As the value of my vouchers will be limited to 10$, but the mastercoin value fluctuates, the amount of mastercoin to purchase these vouchers will vary.
Will mastercoin let me define these vouchers, offer them for sale in a distributed way for mastercoins and invalidate them once they are redeemed?


This is a very good question. I'll give it my best shot based on my understanding.

Mastercoin will allow you to issue a user defined currency. So you would be able to name the currency as one of the specific products of your business or in the name of the business itself turning the currency into a gift voucher.

When they purchase the gift voucher in your store they are actually purchasing the Mastercoin wallet with $10 in it. It might even be possible to let them purchase a Mastercoin wallet with $10 in virtual USD in it which would allow you to directly back your escrow with a user currency called virtual USD. So this way $10 is $10 and you wouldn't have to concern yourself with dealing with Mastercoins directly, only with trusting whomever issues the virtual USD currency.

The virtual USD currency will maintain a stable 1:1 price with real USD. It uses the escrow to do this by having Mastercoins on the escrow side of the scale along with virtual USD. When people purchase virtual USD then some of the Mastercoins held in escrow will become virtual USD. If there the price is no longer 1:1 then some of the virtual USD is destroyed and turned back into Mastercoins until it is 1:1 or some more virtual USD is created until it is 1:1. This means virtual USD will always be 1:1 with real USD if the escrow is healthy.

Your store would have to purchase 10,000 virtual USD from the virtual USD issuer. To do this you would first have to purchase some Mastercoins ($10,000 worth however many that is). Then you'll send those Mastercoins to the issuer of virtual USD, and the issuer will send you $10,000 worth of virtual USD back to you for your gift cards.

Whenever someone redeems your gift card it will result in $10 being sent to you until all $10,000 worth of giftcards are redeemed. The virtual USD company could also send the Mastercoins back to you instead of $10.


That is just one way to do it. Another way would be for your store to issue it's own currency. 10,000 units of that currency. You'd then decide what you'd redeem it for which you believe is equal to $10 in value for each gift card. When the purchaser of the gift card redeems then you would have to provide a product and or service worth $10 in value. To do this you would need to hold Mastercoins in escrow and when they purchase the gift cards from you in the store they would actually be purchasing Mastercoins disguised as gift cards. They'd go home with these Mastercoin wallets or scan the QR code into their smartphone/Google glass and suddenly they'd have a balance of Mastercoins which would be taking the form of your currency. If the Mastercoin escrow isn't healthy then some of your virtual user currency would be destroyed until the price is 1:1 with USD and it's $10 per gift card. In my opinion if its backed by virtual USD then the escrow of virtual USD corporation would handle all that for you. If you back it with Mastercoins then you'd have to back the Mastercoins in your escrow directly with your goods and services so that if they redeem then they get a choice to either get $10 in Mastercoins or receive goods and services worth the value of $10.

They'll trade these with their friends, swapping them until eventually someone redeems and you'll have to offer a product and or service or send them the Mastercoins.

Please confer with dacoinminster for the details on the protocol, there are some things which are not in the whie paper or which I might not understand. That is the best of my understanding at this time.
322  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Mastercoin2 – Can Mastercoin1 even work long-term? on: October 29, 2013, 07:18:49 PM
Because people aren't going to be buying Mastercoins with their USD to turn them into Bitcoins. People will be buying giftcards with their USD which expire and if they decide they want to redeem that giftcard before it expires then they'll have to sell it back to the issuer for Mastercoins. Through that mechanism Mastercoins could be sold in any store where you see giftcards.
Exact same thing can be done with colored coins.

A lot of your ideas about Mastercoin are also applicable to colored coins. What is it exactly that Mastercoins can do that colored coins can not? Escrowed currencies don't count as you can make software that will escrow BTC when needed.
I'm not against using Colored Coins. The problem I have with Colored Coins is that I must buy Bitcoins in order to interact with it. It forces Bitcoin to try to act both as a value of measurement and as a value of account and to try to be good at both. Bitcoin is not good at escrow when it goes in bubbles. It goes in bubbles because it has to be mined, because it's used in transactions and for speculation. If we use Mastercoins then we don't have to use Bitcoins at all or risk Bitcoin sat all. Both Bitcoin and Mastercoin can have independent values and grow in value independent of each other so that if one crashes then it doesn't affect the other.

I could buy Bitcoins with cash and play with Colored Coin or I could buy Mastercoins with cash and play with Mastercoin. The USD is where the value comes from in either case and in my opinion Mastercoin by design will hold value better than Bitcoin because Mastercoin is being designed specifically as a unit of measurement. It doesn't have to act as a currency or do anything but sit in an escrow.

My main argument is the creation of scarcity for Mastercoins makes absolutely no sense. It won't work. It was just a clever way to fund development. In the long run I don't think it is sustainable as described above. If it is a unit for measuring and not a currency than it makes no difference if there is unlimited mastercoins because they can do the "unit of measuring" and anytime you need something of value you back it up with BTC. WAY LESS RISK! By trying to be both, mastercoin value is a big house of cards that will fall fast when a competitor clones it.

Mastercoins are not a currency.  It only exists to hold the value like gold or silver. It's a measuring stick. A shorter stick just means more density. More density which means you can hold more value in less space which is good because the point is to hold as much value in the least amount of space possible for the purpose of the escrow. If the escrow coin, perpetual coin or whatever you'd like to call the unit of measurement isn't good at containing value then it's worthless.

Currencies on the other hand are more like vouchers. You can have as many vouchers as the issuer can redeem within a period of time. So if the issuer is willing to create 1 trillion oz of gold coins then you could issue 1 trillion vouchers, but you cannot issue more vouchers than all the gold on the planet and that is why you need to balance it out with a unit of measurement like Mastercoin. Mastercoin would represent all the possible value on planet earth and then the issuer on the other side of the scale with their gold coins. If the issuer were to try to announce that they are going to issue 1 trillion gold coins but there isn't even that much value possible on the earth itself then we'd know something is immediately wrong. They cannot issue those gold coins unless there is equal value somewhere else.

That means you can have an escrow with 1 trillion gold coins worth of value? Okay they can now issue 1 trillion virtual gold coins even if they cannot create 1 trillion physical gold coins. When the buyers try to redeem then they'll redeem their virtual gold coins for physical gold coins until there is no more gold left on the planet and then they'll want their Mastercoins back which will still have value because the Mastercoins represent all the possible value on planet earth.

Does that make the picture clearer? Mastercoins are meant to be the most valuable substance in existence so that when people put them in escrow it functions as a way to let anyone back anything and issue anything. Value comes from goods and services and not from precious metals, so ultimately the value in Mastercoins will come from goods and services too. That ultimately will be tracked back to national currencies that people will use either to buy Bitcoins with and then transform into Mastercoins (in which case I am concerned that the instability from Bitcoin speculation will pass on to Mastercoin), or they'll buy Mastercoins directly with USD which is the best way because the instability of Bitcoin cannot pass on to Mastercoin. The best way is if Mastercoins are bought with national currencies and then the value of the USD goes directly into Mastercoin without any interference. It lowers the signal to noise ratio.

You're correct it makes no difference how many there are in a certain context. The context is that when I go to buy Mastercoins in USD if there are an unlimited amount then I have no idea how many and cannot find where on the measuring stick the value is. For that reason you need a set in stone amount. You cannot have unlimited Mastercoins because how do you weigh something when the numbers on one side is infinite in both directions and the number on the other side is finite?

Mastercoin is supposed to be finite in that there is a limit to the amount of Mastercoins that can exist, but it should also be very divisible too. That means it has enough space to hold the value of the earth inside of it but maintains just enough limits to give it a useful structure so we can measure something against it. 1 Mastercoin vs 1 oz of gold can be measured only if we know what 1 Mastercoin is. And we only know what 1 Mastercoin is if the amount of Mastercoins are set in stone from the start.

A unit of account is something which should be able to expand and contract because a currency isn't supposed to be scarce. A unit of measurement is something which is inherently scarce because if value isn't scarce there is no way to distinguish whether or not anything is valuable. It's like if beauty was not scarce then you would have no way to determine what it is anymore. Mastercoins therefore have to at least seem scarce, meaning the highest units have to be scarce but if its infinitely divisible then the whole world can use it just not in the same amounts. That way we can distinguish the difference between 1 Mastercoin and 0.000000000000001 Mastercoins. If there were no upper cap we would not be able to distinguish a difference and what use would it be as a unit of measurement? There need not be a lower cap. Gold can be measured in atoms if you like but the fact is we use oz and carats to measure purity. What does infinite carat gold even mean?

If you're talking about a ruler and it goes on in one direction for infinity then yeah you can use it as a measure. That is how Mastercoin already is. But a ruler which goes on for infinity in both directions cannot work because then you cannot measure the purity, beauty, or value. You can have 10 as the highest purity, highest value rating, and go down for infinite with -0.0001 and that is what Mastercoin (and Bitcoin) does. No one wants to compete for the lowest purity, lowest value or anything, everyone psychologically wants the highest and that is why it can work.
and anytime you need something of value you back it up with BTC. WAY LESS RISK!

This is where we disagree the most. BTC is extremely risky which is why I don't think Mastercoin or any escrow should be backed by it. BTC is empowered by speculation and easily forms bubbles because of block reward halving, the moods of miners, and the consumer trends. We don't need that to cause instability for escrow. When consumers lose a lot of money on Satoshi dice or when Silk Road shuts down then a lot of people say its time to cash out into national currencies. That means the real value is in the national currencies in the first place. When they go to work they got paid in national currencies and see BTC as play money. When they go to work and get paid in BTC then I could see BTC being used to back something else.

Ultimately goods and services back the USD. So this is like saying why don't we just rely on the USD and not even bother building Bitcoin? The reason is Bitcoin can do some things the USD cannot do. But the USD is more stable because people are working to earn the USD a lot more than they are for BTC and that is never going to change because BTC just isn't designed to be stable. Mastercoin could make it stable over time perhaps.

The point I'm making is, if I'm the issuer I'd rather people buy my products and services with USD because I know what USD is going to be worth in 6 months. so +1 for USD. If I'm the seller who is selling Mastercoins I'd rather sell it for USD because then I know I'll get relatively the same amount that was originally put into it.

It's the BTC that is the unknown variable and all the other user currencies that people might use to buy Mastercoins. Theoretically you can back an escrow with a user currency and that would include backing it with BTC. But why would anyone prefer to back their escrow with BTC when they can back it with USD using Mastercoins? I would choose the most stable currency to back my escrow so that I don't have to worry about waking up to -%60 in the price of BTC and then wondering what will I do. If It's backed by USD then the price of BTC is irrelevant.

If Mastercoin itself is backed by a basket of currencies including USD, the Euro, the Yen, gold, silver, platinum and more, I'd definitely believe that Mastercoin would be far more stable than BTC because Mastercoin doesn't exist for anything other than for people to buy it and hold it. There is no need to use Mastercoins for playing dice, or as a currency. You can turn your Mastercoins into Bitcoins and then use that as a currency or turn it into USD and use that and so on, so I see the only real threat to Mastercoin being whether or not the escrow can remain healthy and that is only at risk if Mastercoin itself is unstable due to Bitcoin speculators thinking it's a stock or a currency and not thinking about it as more a place to put their value.

Say you want to buy 100 gold bars with your Bitcoin wealth now that you've made a million dollars but you don't want to use a bank. What you could do is buy the virtual gold bars from a cash4gold company. That cash4gold company would let you cash out your Bitcoins, send them cash, and then they'd send you some gold vouchers backed by Mastercoins. When you want your gold bars you redeem the voucher and you get the physical bars but when you want paper gold then you keep the vouchers as a paper wallet.

In this way you could own gold without having to physically hold it. You'd own virtual gold bars which could be redeemed for real gold bars. The value of the Mastercoins would be exactly based on the fact that the virtual gold bars can always be redeemed for real gold bars. The value of Bitcoin is irrelevant for this, and the value of the USD is also irrelevant for this, because the value is directly backed by the gold itself.

So in this way Mastercoin is way more stable than Bitcoin will ever be if used right. If used wrong then people will treat it like it's some kind of stock, speculate and then worry more about the price of Mastercoins instead of worrying about how to get their virtual gold vouchers redeemed using Mastercoins as a vehicle.

And you could say Colored Coin can do the same thing but Bitcoin doesn't just exist to be used in escrows. That means all kinds of transactions and other currency related uses will cause price flucuations which will keep Bitcoin unstable. Bitcoin will also be getting the sort of media attention which will attract different people to it while Mastercoin doesn't even need anyone to buy them directly. You could buy Mastercoins and never have to even know it.

For example you could sell gold in a convenience store as a scratch ticket with Mastercoin. They buy the scratch ticket and find they've won a gold bar. So they simply redeem it and the gold bar is sent to their address. Colored Coin would require interaction with Bitcoin and who knows what the price will be for Bitcoins and why should anyone have to really care? Having that separation means we don't have to care about the price of any specific user currency.
323  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 29, 2013, 06:44:31 PM
Did anybody yet contact ASICMINER's friedcat and talk about Mastercoin's smart property feature?

Asicminer is working on their own "blockchain-based exchange".  It is unclear what they plan to use.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg3374697#msg3374697

ActiveMining is doing an implementation using colored coins.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=297503.msg3378967#msg3378967


These activities are resulting directly from the fall out coming from BTCT and Bitfunder getting in the limelight, so I would imagine that the demand for p2p trading of two units of measurement will only go up.  

Good, now would be the time to contact them now that there is a proof of concept to show them.
They'd probably run their own exchange but I don't see why they couldn't be on the Mastercoin protocol too.

324  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: NEW Giveaway for "MasterCoins" - the new protocol layer built on bitcoin on: October 29, 2013, 04:54:10 PM
Hi,

Im just wondering why I didn't qualify for any mastercoin for this post earlier in the thread?

I believe you do. Let me check with JR and if he authorizes it you'll receive Mastercoins today.

Here you go:
https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1MN3pJCKdywgr8QTenP69GQ4cEbxZJDZEc

P2PBUCKS.COM is the biggest bitcoin news portal in China . 1k+ Unique visitors everyday .

We put up Mastercoin FAQ on our site.

http://p2pbucks.com/?p=8850

BTC address :1PxxYyZNtfRJc5ikYJ5bKr3hHHfMeEmtAu

Cheers!



Here you go:
https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1PxxYyZNtfRJc5ikYJ5bKr3hHHfMeEmtAu


Big UPs to all of the developers!!!

Here is my contributions.

http://www.maxkeiser.com/2013/10/bitcoin-hits-200-but-where-did-this-digital-money-trend-really-start/comment-page-1/#comment-700364
This is me asking Stacy Herbert of KeiserReport if she has heard of mastercoin and would comment on it. Also planted the seed to have JR on as a guest.

also
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319931.msg3424273#msg3424273
-someone seconded my post of mastercoin being the coolest thing being done with btc right now...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319931.msg3425796#msg3425796


also I had another post on the keiserreport name dropping mastercoin but I can't find that link at the moment.

also--mastercoin in the sig.   Smiley

1LefCDhpzacTZ2ibsAV987GUN5PNGGjgY

Here you go:
https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1LefCDhpzacTZ2ibsAV987GUN5PNGGjgY

If you can get in contact with Max Keiser that would be excellent. He should know about the Mastercoin project because I hear he is working on something similar and the technology may interest his crowd funding projects.
Thank you for your contributions.

have you seen my signature?
Please continue to support the project. You've a fairly large holder so it's definitely in your long term self interest.
https://masterchest.info/lookupadd.aspx?address=1EYe3HxCA9txmN9pfEADctC7v69wi3TbMC
325  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: NEW Giveaway for "MasterCoins" - the new protocol layer built on bitcoin on: October 29, 2013, 04:27:41 PM
Hi,

Im just wondering why I didn't qualify for any mastercoin for this post earlier in the thread?

I believe you do. Let me check with JR and if he authorizes it you'll receive Mastercoins today.
326  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: OFFICIAL LAUNCH: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 29, 2013, 03:29:52 PM
Remove the 'magic' of your algorithm for a second and instead lets pretend I create a bank, the ByteMasterBank  BMB.

I tell people that I will issue a BMB IOU for $100 USD if you deposit 1 BTC into my bank and that I will always be willing to redeem that $100 USD IOU at face value, but you will have to accept $100 worth of BTC in place of actual USD when you redeem your IOU.   Assuming price stability I will always be able to meet my obligations.   If the price of BTC goes up then I can make a killing because my IOUs are denominated in USD.

So the price of USD goes up and I now have enough BTC in my fund to buy back all outstanding USD loans 2x over.   Great!  I can now print up additional USD loans and start buying things with them all while maintaining over 100% reserves!  

The next week the price of USD goes up and all of a sudden I am insolvent, I only have the ability to buy back 50% of the outstanding USD loans.   As long as no one catches on I can play the game of a fractional reserve bank and still honor withdraws (redemptions at face value).   How ever, once 50% of my depositors have withdrawn their money that game is over and everyone else loses everything because I am unable to pay.

Unlike traditional banks, I don't earn any interest on my loans and must cover all losses from depositor funds.  I also don't have the ability to hide the true state of my balance sheet nor do I have any ability to raise any additional capital on my own.   Everyone that continues to bank with me knows they are playing a game of musical chairs and they will only continue to trust it as long as everyone else does.   It will not last long, especially for a crypto-currency not backed by the full faith and credit of a big bank.

The problem you have is that you need the system to be workable on day one when MC is worth almost nothing and has no reputation.  The first 'panic' or 'market correction' it faces would entirely collapse all of MC because everyone with GoldCoin would lose and once that is revealed all other currencies (not backed by a public issuer violating bearer bonds laws) would also make a rush to safety.  


This is why in my opinion Mastercoin escrows should be backed by the actual goods and services of the issuer and not by BTC. A substitute for the actual goods and services of the issuer should be the national currencies because most human beings toil (sacrifice their time) for national currencies. So the value in the time spent toiling is actually locked up in the national currencies and this is why it's a better idea to buy Mastercoins with national currencies than with BTC.

As illustrated by the ByteMasterBank example, if that bank is backed entirely by BTC and BTC is volatile then that volatility in value will transfer over to Mastercoin. Mastercoin can only be as stable as whatever is giving it value so if its getting most of it's value from BTC and BTC is in a bubble then when that bubble bursts you can expect it to be felt in the diminishing value of Mastercoins which suddenly wont be worth as much in comparison to the currencies which truly are stable and which truly provide value (the national currencies).

The Zerg is also correct in that we need to have trust in the system to a certain extent. It's not completely trustless.

You have a deep seated assumption based upon circular logic... that assumption is that the price will maintain parity naturally without respect to the backing and that the fund would be able to profit on this natural market correction.   However, if this were a natural market response the fund would be unnecessary.  Every action taken by the fund will be at a loss.

Bitcoin succeeds based on circular logic. It is a meme. A self-fulfilling prophecy.
This is Satoshi's real genius, not the technical solution to the double-spend problem.

From the early days - the main reason to buy bitcoins is because it will appreciate in value because other people will buy bitcoins. You can't get more circular than this.

Bitcoin is the proof that "circular logic" by itself is not just cause to disqualify a financial scheme.
MasterCoins's funds use circular logic, but that doesn't make them flawed.

No.   the main reason to buy bitcoins is because it will appreciate in value because other people will buy bitcoins to use them because they have extremely desirable properties as a currency.

Look, let's say we have 2 coins XxxCoin and YyyCoin.  X starts with 100 backing MasterCoins, Y starts with 1000 backing MasterCoins. Why would XxxCoin track the price of Silver and YyyCoin track the price of gold?

It'll only happen if the person (that you must trust) behind the escrow, issues and redeems xxx or yyy coins such that its supply vs demand creates a price that tracks gold and silver respectively.  First off, this requires you trust the escrow admin.  So its not a trustless coin.  Secondly, the escrow is gonna get drained or be so "full" it becomes more valuable than the commodity ... even just random walk math shows that eventually this will happen.  Deliberate speculator manipulation, profiting on the information asymmetry where they know how the other party (the escrow) will behave will make it happen sooner.



Ultimately we have to know for sure that the issuers will redeem their coupons, gift cards, currencies or vouchers for goods and services. The escrow works best when backed by trusted issuers who can guarantee that the value held within the Mastercoin is stable because the most stable way to create value is by goods and services, not by BTC, not by the USD, but the goods and services which actually bring value to any economy.

So there will have to be trusted issuers. This means the legitimate corporation has to be able to interface with Mastercoin. For instance Nintendo should be able to interface with Mastercoin and release Nintendo credits which we can trust 100% are coming from the digital signature of the Nintendo corporation and which we can trust legally to redeem. If it is set up like that then Mastercoin value will be stable and backed directly by the goods and services of every trusted issuer. The untrusted issuers will still exist and anyone who wants to interact with them will be taking their chances.

In order for the Mastercoin system to obtain the value of the goods and services of the issuer of Goldcoins the issuer of Goldcoins must legally be required to redeem their currency. This could happen like this, I give the issuer of Gold coins some Mastercoins and they give me some physical Gold coins worth the same value. Now the value of Mastercoins will remain stable as long as the value of Gold is stable. The demand for Goldcoins will increase the amount of Mastercoins in the escrow. If there is a sell off then people will want to send their Goldcoins back. Perhaps this could be accomplished with an expiration date where they could sell back the Goldcoins in exchange for their Mastercoins back.

Here is the problem though, if the Goldcoins are entirely virtual then those virtual Goldcoins can be destroyed. Physical Goldcoins would have to be created or the virtual Goldcoins would have no value at all and those physical Goldcoins cannot be destroyed, only sent back to the issuer and only by a certain date. As long as no value is created or destroyed and only transferred, and as long as the user has a preference for dealing with trusted issuers, there should be stability in the system if the initial value comes from national currencies.

If the initial value comes from BTC when BTC are $200 for instance and then we see a correction then a lot of people might start selling Mastercoins for USD to get out because they'll know that speculative value is behind the BTC buying the majority of Mastercoin and that this speculative value can collapse. If the Mastercoin holders sell for USD in the first place then the price of BTC doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if BTC is in a bubble, they'll get the exact amount in Mastercoin back in USD that they put in and as utility in Mastercoin increases more people will be putting USD into it and due to escrow they wont be taking it out of it as quickly as they'll be putting it in.

That is the only real problem I could find with the Mastercoin protocol It's weakness to speculation comes from the fact that everyone is thinking about what it's price is in BTC and BTC is weak to speculation. Mastercoin can be more stable than BTC for many reasons if and only if there are enough trusted issuers because the stability comes from them.

No.   the main reason to buy bitcoins is because it will appreciate in value because other people will buy bitcoins to use them because they have extremely desirable properties as a currency.

Look, let's say we have 2 coins XxxCoin and YyyCoin.  X starts with 100 backing MasterCoins, Y starts with 1000 backing MasterCoins. Why would XxxCoin track the price of Silver and YyyCoin track the price of gold?

It'll only happen if the person (that you must trust) behind the escrow, issues and redeems xxx or yyy coins such that its supply vs demand creates a price that tracks gold and silver respectively.  First off, this requires you trust the escrow admin.  So its not a trustless coin.  Secondly, the escrow is gonna get drained or be so "full" it becomes more valuable than the commodity ... even just random walk math shows that eventually this will happen.  Deliberate speculator manipulation, profiting on the information asymmetry where they know how the other party (the escrow) will behave will make it happen sooner.

Sorry - just noticed that I haven't replied to this.

There is no escrow admin - it's all handled by the protocol. Speculators can reduce the escrow fund's trading profits, but cannot eliminate them entirely.

I think maybe I'll stop debating whether the escrow fund can work, and just point out that even if people are doubtful about the escrow-backed currencies, MasterCoins can be absurdly valuable without that feature. Distributed betting is going to be big. Thanks to your suggestion, the spec will also support user-issued coins without escrow backing (working like colored coins).

This is an interesting way around it. It would allow Mastercoin to try the escrow feature while also offering an alternative if the escrow feature fails. I don't think the escrow feature has to fail, I just think it matters how it's implemented.
If you sell for higher than market price there's no reason anyone would buy from you. By definition a "market price" implies that this is a well functioning market which requires there to be plenty of buyers and sellers (not just you). If others are selling the same asset as you but for 1% lower there's no reason anyone would ever buy from the escrow.

By the way where are you proposing this escrow even comes from? So far you've just proposed that money sent to the "exodus address" go directly to funding you, your wife, and your kids.

Ah. There's the spiral_mind I know and love!

The escrow fund buys the cheapest coins below target. If somebody has offered them for sale below the target price, the escrow fund can buy them at that price. If they didn't want to sell at that price, they shouldn't have offered them for sale. The escrow fund merely buys and sells what is out there.

The escrow fund is created the moment the first person buys a new pegged currency. 100% of their money goes into the escrow fund.

The cheapest below target is going to be at or below  Fund / Owed...  which will thus represent the same risk profile as owning MC directly without any of the gains.

The risk exposure to a total collapse of MasterCoin is the same for both. If MasterCoin only drops a small amount, the risk profile for a GoldCoin holder is still based on the price of gold, not MasterCoin.

This would be correct but why would I trust the data stream for Gold Coin if no gold is created? It's a derivative of gold, it's virtual gold, but it's not real gold. This allows for the GoldCoin holder to basically own the risk profile for gold without owning any physical gold. Why would they want to do that when they can just keep their Mastercoins?

If they buy real gold bars then it makes sense but then they cannot store it unless in a bank? But if its redeemable within a certain time period they can trade it to someone else who wants physical gold making it more valuable. So the real value is in that it's redeemable for real gold just as the US dollar once was when backed by the gold standard. If it's merely virtual and the issuer wont give me my gold bars if I ask for them then I don't understand where the value comes from. If I had Gold Coins I might be able to trade them if the issuer will redeem them for 6 months, giving me 6 months to spend/swap them. But they would have to create a real Gold Coin in their vault and store it so that it can be mailed to whomever owns the virtual coins at the time of redemption.

Finally my understanding on the escrow is that it load balances the virtual representations of the actual physical gold. If there are physical gold coins sitting in a vault those real gold coins do not get destroyed, only the virtual gold coins, coupons, or representations of those physical gold coins would get destroyed when sent back to the issuer to result in adjusting the price allowing it to track to the price of the real gold sitting in the vault.

327  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: NEW Giveaway for "MasterCoins" - the new protocol layer built on bitcoin on: October 29, 2013, 01:17:44 PM
I'm interested in Mastercoin as an economist because it seems to open new possibilities for understanding the nature of circulation at the "mesolevel".

for playing around: 19ZpriK1Y6tw55P8E8w8b4P5QAHjV8aSvw

Please promote Mastercoin in your signature and/or blog/post/tweet about it so that I can send you some Mastercoins. It needs promotion and it's according to the rules of the thread. Thanks.
328  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 29, 2013, 01:03:23 PM
While reading about Mastercoin and colored coins I came across this:

(killerstorm replying to dacoinminster about how "thin clients are fundamentally impossible")

Quote
Well, I see a problem: MasterCoin transactions are not linked together in a subgraph, so one needs to scan the whole Bitcoin blockchain to interpret them.

This means that thin clients are fundamentally impossible.
You are going to have either full clients (like Bitcoin-Qt) which download whole blockchain (8+ GB of data now).
Or server-trusting client, which undermines the whole point of having cryptocurrency. (If you are into that, just use Open Transactions: low overhead, impressive features.)

We discussed this topic in this mailing list, see discussion with Paul Snow and 'theory of colored coins'/'advanced color states' threads: you have to confine transactions to subgraph to make it friendlier to thin clients.

(It is hard to say whether it is friendly enough, but at least we have a chance to optimize and make trade-offs to make it acceptable... I don't see how it is possible with global messaging model without making it reliant on trusted servers.)

You can implement many MasterCoin features using colored coin model with advanced color states.

Or you can at least confine special transactions to a subgraph, so thin clients will have a chance to exist until MasterCoin transaction volume becomes high...



Quote
>The block-chain scanning requirements are a lot lower considering that I only need to scan transactions that reference the Exodus Address,

You need to scan whole blockchain to find all transactions which reference the Exodus Address.

Blockchain is a flat list of transactions, they aren't grouped by address or anything. And you need to process transaction to see which addresses it references.

You might use bloom filter feature to reduce traffic, but then you're at mercy of network nodes you've connected to: they might just 'forget' to send you some transactions, which might be used to rob user.

For example, suppose address XYZ has 100 coins. I will first send 100 coins to address ABC, and later 100 coins to address DEF.

Of course, second transaction is invalid, but if DEF's node haven't seen the first one, it will recognize second as valid...

Thus: unless you scan whole blockchain, you depend on honesty of nodes you've connected to.
 
>but thin client type solutions are going to be needed eventually.

I don't think there can be a solution if protocol is simply not designed with thin clients in mind.


Has there been any new developments on if it's possible to make it so that Mastercoin doesn't require trust in third parties? Or will the only people who can directly move Mastercoins without trust will have to have the entire blockchain and Mastercoin tools running locally?

As of right now to my knowledge you cannot send Mastercoins using thin clients. You have to use either BitcoinQT or Armory. Electrum can receive Mastercoins but cannot send them out.

It's an inconvenience but I don't know if I could say at this moment that it is a problem. In the long term it might become a problem.

Colored Coin isn't always at the disadvantage, because of how it works it does have some advantages. I just think Colored Coin is set up in a way in which it uses a unit of account as the unit of measurement. I think that the unit of account has to be independent and separate from the unit of measurement. And honestly no one has explained how Colored Coin can do derivatives in a way which is as simple to understand and implement as Mastercoin. I'm not saying it couldn't work, I'm just saying you're going to have a very difficult time explaining Colored Coin.

What I mean is that with Colored Coin everything rides on whenever or not there is demand for Bitcoin. The whole system relies on Bitcoin to an extreme extent which I don't think is all that safe. When I asked where Colored Coin will get it's value from people say Bitcoin and that is the problem with it. The value should come directly from the national currencies that are the most stable like the USD or the Euro, or it should come from goods and services. Value should not come from Bitcoin.

The Mastercoin protocol relies on Mastercoins for escrow but since Mastercoins are only used for one thing (to act as escrow and as a unit of measurement), it does not have to be connected in value to Bitcoin or anything else. This independence in my opinion is a very good thing because in my opinion a unit of measurement isn't supposed to be the coin we use as a currency. The unit of measurement is supposed to be the measuring stick for the value of everything we create on top of it. Initially the value of Mastercoins will come from the stable national currencies that people will use to buy Mastercoins with. The stability in the value will have to come from national currencies because Bitcoin has extreme price fluctuations, volatility, and in my opinion isn't very solid to use as an escrow because in a day the value can decrease 50% (we have seen it), while with the USD the value will never increase or decrease 50% in a day.

I don't think Bitcoin itself should be used for that because it will drain resources and make it so Bitcoin developers will eventually have to focus on issues to deal with all this Colored Coin. Mastercoin has it's own resources to develop it and does not demand resources from Bitcoin developers to develop it.

If Colored Coin can work that is great. My opinion is Colored Coin is limited to whatever Bitcoin can do and whatever perception Bitcoin has. Mastercoin is not limited to that, and because of that Mastercoin has a chance to develop it's own economic eco-system which does not rely on Bitcoin. To illustrate if I wanted to deal with Colored Coins I have to buy Bitcoins first or I cannot deal with them. If I want to deal with Mastercoin I will just buy Mastercoins. I currently need a Bitcoin wallet to receive and send from but in the future I might even be able to use a Mastercoin wallet which would mean I don't really have to associate with Bitcoin at all beyond the protocol level.

And that is a good thing because in my opinion if Mastercoin is to be successful it has to be purchased direct with USD. Not with other crypto-currencies and not with Bitcoins. The reason being that you want Mastercoins initially to have its value come from goods and services and not speculation. Since most people work for national currencies it does not make much sense to provide value for Mastercoin with Bitcoins which doubled in price possibly due to a bubble rather than any new goods and services. If people were to purchase Mastercoins exclusively with Bitcoins instead of with the USD or some other national currency then eventually when the Bitcoin bubble pops and the price crashes down again the value of Mastercoins would crash down with it and the value wouldn't at all represent the goods and services or anything other than speculation.

So the best way to buy Mastercoins to promote a stable value is to buy it with a stable national currency. There is plenty of money, trillions of dollars in USD just sitting waiting to be put in an escrow. We should be encouraging people to use the cash under their mattress to buy Mastercoins.
329  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 29, 2013, 03:42:04 AM
So JR,, not to be devils advocate but what will that mean for the value of MSC when you sell 1% ?

It should mean a positive pressure on distribution which in the long term should increase MSC's value. It's up to the market whether or not it wants to buy the coins, is it not? And I do wish to see how far Mastercoin can go with JR on full time...
That is how I see it too vokain. If he sells that is actually good for the protocol. What matters is how he goes about selling it and whether it's dumped all at once or done intelligently over a long enough period.

I don't think it will matter if he sells 1% if the demand far exceeds the supply. Also it does make a difference how he sells it and whether or not he dumps it all at once or sells it in a very organized smart way.

If for instance he sells MSC for cash then it wont affect the BTC to MSC exchange rate very much because he'd be selling it to a completely different demographic.

For example, JR could start up a regulated exchange or wait until something like Coinbase comes around to MSC and then sell to Coinbase (they have to get their MSC from somewhere right?). He could sell a little bit at a time so that the price doesn't change and do it quietly. He could for instance sell only when demand far exceeds the supply and only after it reaches the level of maturity where if there is plenty of people trying to buy it.

As long as he doesn't sell before the community grasps the value of what the protocol is then it wont matter in my opinion if he does sell even if its more than 1%. At some point Mastercoin will be in so much demand, far more demand than we see with Bitcoin that there will be a need to match that demand with supply and he's the guy who has the supply.

330  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 28, 2013, 11:02:21 PM
I'm happy to report that the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction using the Mastercoin protocol has been done.

I sold 10 test Mastercoin to myself for the sum of 0.0001 Bitcoins. Let me explain how this works.


I added recent distributed transactions to the order book page on mastercoin-explorer.

I achieved all this using the mastercoin-explorer website and Bitcoind, if anybody knows how to deal with the Bitcoin-qt/d console and wants to try this let me know.

As always this is just my implementation of the rules set out by the official spec, this won't be set in stone until the other developers come up with their own implementations and they come to the same conclusion as my libraries. This is quite a difficult Mastercoin message so I expect things to change around a little before everything is final.

We are getting closer  Cheesy 


This post needs to be copied onto Reddit and then tweeted.
331  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 28, 2013, 10:30:04 PM
An interesting set of quotes from Coinbase relevant to Mastercoin.
http://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-gmail-bitcoin/
Quote
These services, such as more intuitive payment systems, credit services, stock exchanges, and smart property, are what will give bitcoin more traction among mainstream users who would run a mile from a public bitcoin key.

Coinbase isn’t building most of them – but it is focusing on making a superset of services as simple as possible.
332  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How to verify the ownership of Bitcoins? on: October 28, 2013, 09:29:26 PM
Say, a person says he owns 100BTC in certain addresses / wallets. Is there a way to verify the ownership without asking the owner to jeopardize his coins?

I'm thinking about developing a casual website that would allow Bitcoin users to brag about their wealth, but I'm not sure if it would be possible to verify that the users actually own the Bitcoins they claim to have.
Secure multiparty computation. That is called the millionaires problem and it has been solved.

I don't know whether or not it's solved in the Bitcoin protocol but theoretically it has been solved.
333  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 28, 2013, 08:26:27 PM
Anybody interested in helping our chinese friends buy MSC and/or get involved in other ways?

Quote
Hi David, J.R, Ron, Sam and Lee:

The MasterCoin has been very hot topic recently in China.

Please allow me introduce Mr. really Lee to you guys.

Really has translated the Mastercoin's white paper into Chinese version, he is running a Mastercoin community via QQ group with 65 members now. (Chines skype)

He told me that there are some Chinese are willing to purchase the Mastercoins, but they have no idea how to buy from second market, and they do not know
how to involve in the project development.....

IMHO: That will be great if you guys invite some Chinese into your group/foundation, help promote and protect Mastercoin project in China.

Anything I could be in assistance, please let me.

Any comments?

Cheers,

Bo

My response:

Quote
Hi Lee!

I've posted a copy of this email in our project thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265488.msg3429668#msg3429668

We're happy to support our Chinese friends getting involved with MasterCoin, although we don't have any websites or services in Chinese yet. That might be a good starting point for someone who wants to get involved, especially if they speak enough English to work with our developers making English sites. Note that someone who creates such a site will probably be eligible for some payment from our coding contest (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=292628.240). The potential Chinese buyers may want to pool their money and choose an English-speaking representative to make the purchase on their behalf on the ad-hoc exchange MaxMint is running (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287145.0), then distribute the coins purchased to the people who contributed. Otherwise, they can use the distributed exchange when that is ready.

Thanks!

-J.R.

Paid translation might be a good use of some of the contest funds. If the spec / whitepaper can be translated into as many languages as possible and if more importantly the development documentation and concepts can be translated then it will probably catch fire.

334  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 28, 2013, 08:11:55 PM
Hi all,

I agree that a PR firm that has measurable results (S.M.A.R.T) will be important in the near future.

However, the most important steps in the next few months are delivering features and value-added functionality to MSC so that word-of-mouth spreads within the Bitcoin community. I would first leverage the Project's success to market itself and then spend some money on PR.



There will never be more MasterCoins, unless the MasterCoin protocol gets hard-forked. Potentially anybody could do such a hard fork, and if it happened, people would have to decide if they wanted to stay or to join the new fork.

So far the price of BTC has risen faster than we can spend it, so we actually have a lot more money now than when we started, even though we've spent quite a bit. Of course, that could always change if BTC crashes, as it has been known to do. Because of that possibility, I'm a tightwad on a lot of things. Just ask the board - we're currently discussing whether we should hire a very prestigious PR firm who is offering us a discount and offering to take payment in BTC/MSC because they are hugely into what we are doing. However, it's still a LOT of money, and I'm looking at cheaper alternatives before we commit.

I agree. If it's the first decentralized exchange I don't think PR will be a problem at all. Get in contact with the issuers and business owners. Have some useful goods and services using the Mastercoin protocol and then run the PR campaign to put it into the media.

It will be important to encourage business owners and issuers to keep using Mastercoins but the truth of the matter is, for any business it will make all the sense in the world based on functionality. For the users I think where else are they supposed to go for a decentralized exchange? There is no alternative so once you have that you'll automatically have the Bitcoin community.

Even if Colored Coin and Bitshares arrive soon or at the same time the demand for a decentralized exchange is so great that there are thousands of people waiting just for that. The more features you have the greater the demand will be and I do believe the potential market cap is big enough for Colored Coin, Bitshares and Mastercoin to all be successful.

Long term PR will be a major issue though. The other issue will be getting fiat currency into the Mastercoin eco-system. Mastercoin is a great idea but if its hard to get fiat into the system it's never going to take off as much as it could. I have ideas on how giftcards can be used to turn fiat into Mastercoins using a giftcard/scratch card approach to selling Mastercoins. I think scratch cards which contain Mastercoins should be sold in liquor stores, coffee shops and at college campuses across the globe.

My idea for marketing Mastercoin to the general public once the functionality exists
I would design the scratch cards so everyone wins something, but the amount of Mastercoins you win is random. Some people would win the jackpot and some would win just enough to want to keep buying Mastercoin scratch tickets.

So just as the giveaway thread gives away Mastercoins at 0.1-0.9, in the future a scratch ticket approach will be necessary. The scratch tickets will be sold so people will actually be buying the Mastercoins but once in a while there will be a jackpot in there so that some people win a lot more than others.

So for $1 to $5 to $20 anyone will be able to buy a scratch ticket. They'll scratch it off to see how many Mastercoins they've won underneath. If they won more than they paid for they hit the jackpot but the majority of people will just win any amount and be happy with that. The total amount sold is the same but the distribution is randomized so that it's got a gambling element to it.

Now you'll have the general public with scratch tickets with Mastercoins which they'll be able to use.
335  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: NEW Giveaway for "MasterCoins" - the new protocol layer built on bitcoin on: October 28, 2013, 05:25:28 PM
how does one obtain a mastercoin address?  I see the link is greyed out at masterchest.info



Download a Bitcoin wallet like Armory, QT or Electrum and then your Bitcoin address which you designate as your Mastercoin address becomes your Mastercoin address. Try to keep it to one Mastercoin address per Bitcoin wallet. Do not use web or cloud wallets like Coinbase but a wallet you control physically because Mastercoins may potentially be very valuable and also for technical reasons.

I hope you're aware that I cannot read mandarin. If someone would like to translate that and confirm what it says that would be helpful.
While I hope you buy plenty of Mastercoins, if you do nothing else then save that 0.2 Mastercoins for a year and find out how valuable it really is.

I too hope to buy lots of Mastercoins (as an investment). When will charting be available for Mastercoins? I would like to see its value performing against fiat currencies and other crypto assets (and base my investment decisions on performance I see on charts).

In the initial phase people will see Mastercoins and Bitcoins as an investment. In my opinion this is unavoidable because people are quite poor, the economy is bad, and people are looking for ways to up their monies. The real function of Mastercoin will be to reshape the global economy and allow you to be economically liberated from the banking titans of the establishment. If you have debts, or if you're an entrepreneur, Mastercoin will have functionality which will greatly benefit you.

Wait to see what it can do before you think about selling them because you might find out that there is nothing more valuable to sell it for.
336  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Marketplace (Altcoins) / Re: 300 BTC Coding Contest: Distributed Exchange (MasterCoin Developer Thread) on: October 28, 2013, 01:19:20 PM
I'm a software developer and I'd like to try to make a contribution to this project.
Thanks!
I really hope someone will help this guy.  And every guy who wants a technical introduction.  If Mastercoin had a representative who work closely for one day bringing people up to speed - it would encourage more developers to work.  We don't want willing devos to get frustrated by the steep learning curve. 

For example, if Zathras puts together a really cool single zip file which has everything prepared so it can be opened as a working Visual Studio project testbed - it would be worth a very huge amount to all holders of Mastercoin. 

Please, please, please.  Can we get a developer into kit made in .net with all necessary and useful libraries for the beginners to get warmed up and come up to speed?  This will double our programmer participation.  OK - these guys won't take any lead role, but they will surely build very nice little pieces which integrate with the whole package. 

Zathras last instructions were very vague and brief.  I know it is not his job to get everyone up and running.  But a tiny effort from him (say 2 hours) and newish programmers will save tons of time not searching of the pieces to get started with Manstercoin.  Zathras - can you spare two hours time?  Please?

Maybe the foundation will vote for a few coins for a programmer's starter kit like this. 



What we need is a complete technical specification on the wiki. I can't develop for it either because as soon as I think I understand it, some change is made and it's slightly different. So it's a fast moving target.

A wiki is required which puts everything in one place. We also need a reference/command list so people know what to do because even the best programmer isn't going to just know how to do stuff. Basically a detailed road map is needed, code has to be commented so that other people can read it, and the specifications along with the to-do list have to be clear. Finally there needs to be an API or at least something similar to what Open Transactions has where you have a high level API which everyone can connect to. Python is relatively easy to read which is a good thing but for stuff like building a user interface or bug testing that is something people can help out with after the basic code is finished.

Documentation documentation Documentation.

337  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: ProtoShares Bounty - 30 BTC Start Mining BitShares in November! on: October 28, 2013, 01:11:55 PM


This is pretty cool.
338  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 28, 2013, 11:50:22 AM
How many mastercoins were distributed for every Bitcoin sent to the Exodus address?

Can't seem to find the original price anywhere in the OP..

100:1, 100 Mastercoins for every Bitcoin.
Did anybody yet contact ASICMINER's friedcat and talk about Mastercoin's smart property feature?

It's a bit soon, wait until smart property actually works before contacting Friedcat.
how far are we from finishing the distributed exchg

Progress is being made although the last few weeks we have been working on improving the message encoding itself.

I've broadcasted the first ever Mastercoin BTC/MSC exchange message on the 25th of October. You can see it here on Mastercoin-explorer. For convenience I also made an order book page which shows all broadcasted orders. There is no way to accept these orders for now or for any non-technical to create offers but I expect there might be in the next week or so.

Excellent work! This is actually happening faster than anyone expected.
339  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Creating Bitcoin passports using sacrifices on: October 27, 2013, 08:20:06 PM
I figured I'd start a new thread for this despite that there are a few similar threads already, as I wanted discussion of this exact design all in one place. I will incorporate feedback and put it onto the wiki in the coming week. These ideas are of course not really mine, they have come out of lots of different discussions and debates. But I want to try blending them in a different way, with more technical detail.

"Bitcoin passports" are related to fidelity bonds discussed elsewhere in this forum, but I think it's a slightly better sounding name (if a little misleading).



Services that can be abused (wikis, forums, webmail etc) need a blacklistable identity for each user so bad behaviour can be punished through exclusion. If no such blacklistable identity exists then account termination is pointless because the abuser will just immediately sign up again. This is why Tor tends to have a read-only view of the internet. Mesh networks like cjdns will have the same problem. Small sites tend to use IP address but this is weak; more advanced operations like the Google abuse team use phone verification and other techniques.

For anonymous users to take part, a cost on establishing an identity must be imposed. We can do this by requiring users to present a proof that they gave away some coins to miner fees. The proof is standalone and can be checked by anyone who has a copy of the block headers. The hash of that proof becomes the pseudonym, it can be checked against Spamhaus style DNS blacklists to discover past behaviour that has been associated with that nym and optionally blocked.

To create one, you take X coins and spent them to miner fees over the course of Y consecutive blocks. The outputs of the transactions are set to OP_FALSE so nodes can be taught to prune them. Each transaction and its merkle branch are included into a data structure, called the passport:

Code:
message BitcoinPassport {
  // A name that sites can refer to the user as - for convenience only, it is
  // not checked anywhere and can be of any form. Websites must sanitize
  // it for XSS before rendering as there may be arbitrary UTF-8 data in it.
  required string textual_name = 1;
  repeated Sacrifice sacrifices = 2;
  // Some optional data that can help simplify signup for websites ....
  optional string email = 3;  // etc
}

message Sacrifice {
  // The raw transaction as included into the block chain, the merkle branch
  // proving its inclusion and the co-ordinates of the block.
  required bytes tx = 1;
  required bytes merkle_branch = 2;
  required bytes included_in_block = 3;
  required int inclusion_height = 4;   // Some implementations may benefit from this.
}

If a service or application wishes to verify a passport, it asks the operating system to open a URL of the form:

Code:
bitcoinpassport+https://accounts.google.com/VerifyAnonymousAccount?value=0.01&challenge=f3626fca2ce9ffd23e0abd859faeff5384b63834&state=dNaBzuXCE7a7UGSO+deEbX/8XDNESGSD/lQ9vmO9/NU=

An application, call it the Passport Manager, handles this URI and then signs the given challenge using each public key in each sacrifice transaction (in order). The challenge is randomly generated by the server. The signatures are then bundled up together with the state and the passport itself:

Code:
message IdentityProof {
  // An series of embedded messages containing passports. This is not an embedded type to ensure
  // reliable hashing of the contents without any confusion caused by protocol upgrades in future.
  // There can be more than one so you can present multiple passports to reach the required size
  // of sacrifice, in case your first one isn't large enough.
  repeated bytes passport = 1;
  // A list of signatures, one for each input in each sacrifice, in order.
  repeated bytes signatures = 2;
  // This is simply a copy of the state parameter in the URI.
  optional string state = 3;
}

The state parameter is arbitrary data looped through the client from the server. It allows for a stateless server implementation that does not need a database to track what challenge corresponds to what server action is currently suspended pending verification. For instance, the server could encrypt any state it requires into this field. It is useful for operations that use global load balancing.

Upon receiving an IdentityProof, the server parses the passport field into a BitcoinPassport message, verifies the signatures (the passport is presented by its owner), verifies that the sacrifice transactions link back to the given block headers based on the servers copy of those headers, and then verifies that the number and value of the sacrifices is sufficient. The transactions should appear more or less in consecutive blocks the chain, though there should be a bit of leeway allowed.

If the proof is validated, the server can then check against its own blacklists of abusers or look up the hash in a remote database. If no problems are found, the nym (proof hash) can be stored in the newly created account. If later the account turns out to be abusive, it can be blacklisted. The state variable can be decrypted and whatever data needs to be adjusted then can be. The server replies to the app with an HTTP redirect and the app then opens the redirect URI, which takes the user back to the browser. The redirect URI may complete registration with a welcome message, or alternatively explain to the user why their nym is not accepted.

Passports can be created using the Passport Manager app. It is a standalone program that maintains its own Bitcoin wallet. You send money to it, click the "Make passport" button and then go to bed. It ensures there are outputs of the right quantity and value before starting, and then sends transactions such that they get into consecutive blocks. This may take an hour or two, but once complete the passport can be written to a .passport file which contains the public data and of course, the private keys used to sign for them.

Design choices

(1) Why miner fees instead of a charity?

There are several problems with the idea of donating to charity:

  • Charities are not politically neutral as miners are. For instance, if you wanted to donate to charities that operate in Iran that might be an issue. Nobody will be able to agree on one set of charities that makes everyone happy - even "no brainers" like open source foundations would be a turnoff to non-technical people who may wish to use the system.
  • Charities massively prefer to have real relationships with donators who commit to the long term (or can be convinced to do so). Anonymous, unpredictable revenue flows can make their accounting much harder because they don't know when money might arrive, so it can't be relied upon. A charity that received money this way then didn't use it would lose a lot of goodwill through no real fault of their own.
  • Some charities do not want to or cannot accept anonymous donations at all.
  • Everyone would have to agree on the list of charities to use ahead of time, so there would be no connection between how well a charity does and how much it received in sacrifice fees. A charity may operate effectively for a few years and then become corrupt or incompetent, but upgrading everyones software to use a new list would be difficult.

Miners are politically neutral, anonymous, indistinguishable, the money is almost guaranteed to quickly re-circulate into the economy via exchanges and it helps support network security.

(2) Why require multiple sacrifices in consecutive blocks?

This is to avoid people mining their own sacrifice. It's very hard to mine 6 consecutive blocks but relatively easy to get transactions into them. A gap of 1 block or so would be acceptable, you don't need to hit every single block to have very high confidence.

(3) What are good values for the size of the sacrifice and the number of blocks?

Abuse is cheap. Let's imagine we deploy this for Gmail. The cost of Gmail accounts on the black market is roughly $100-$150 per thousand accounts. This is what it costs professional spammers to overcome phone verification and successfully avoid bulk termination.

Thus a single account costs about 10 to 15 cents. Assume a price of $20 per coin, that means 10 cents is 0.005 coins. If we say you need to spend 0.005 coins to fees in the space of 6 blocks, then this means 0.001 coins per sacrifice with an allowable gap of 1 block in 6 total. That sounds quite reasonable to me. Because you know when the sacrifice was made, calculating the value of it in the currency of your choice is straightforward despite floating exchange rates.

(4) Why a new URI scheme?

For a website to ask an app for data, there are only a few possibilities. Magic HTTP headers, JavaScript APIs etc all require browser extensions to implement, which is hard or impossible to do on mobile/tablet browsers. URI registration is simple, universally supported and does not impose any browser requirements.

Don't bother with blacklists. Just use micropayments to charge uses a fee.
340  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address” on: October 27, 2013, 06:39:55 PM
Exactly 619478.59338440 MSC were created and no more will ever be created.
When asked about it, I think Willet replied: "...well, I don't want to say 'never'"

What if you had the choice: the projects dies for lack of development resources - or - 10% dilution for all participants to reach a spectacular success?  

I'd take choice #2.

Never say never.  Or 'ever'.  Smiley  Grin

More Mastercoins doesn't dilute anything if the project is a success. Development resources would come from Bitcoin once the decentralized exchange is built. I don't see how it will be an issue at all.

Also you'll have many commercial interests and venture capitalists who will pour millions into it if it even looks like its a success.
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