Don't make the mistake of making equivalence between Avalon and any other supplier. What Yifu and Ngzhang did was far worse than what any one else has done in this space by a very long distance.
Orly? What Yifu did is by order of magnitude more honest than what ScamFast did, and this comes from a both Avalon and HF victim. Eventually we all got full BTC amount back from Yifu, his greatest sin is destroying the dream of small miners to ever get in the fair mining game with the big boys. ScamFast deliberately lied with the intention to keep most of the BTC and never refund them in full to customers. Avalon is greed and incompetence, HF is pure scam, how can Avalon be worse? You obviously haven't been around long enough to have any perspective on the subject beyond your own losses. BFL promised false shipping dates every day for over a year to keep their pre order cash flow running. There was no batches, no attempt to give any realistic perspective of time to delivery if you ordered. Just lies from Josh and abuse against anyone who asked for refunds or actual facts. Hashfast has about 10 months to go before they come close to matching this. As for Avalon, I calculate Yifu stole on the order of 250 000 bitcoins fron his customers by keeping batch 2 for himself. Simon has done a terrific job of promising things he can't deliver. He hasn't stolen what he promised to deliver as of yet. |
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I'm sorry entropy, but you are wrong. At least in my case and in many others. It wasn't greed that made me buy from HF, it was stupidity. I knew that a full ROI was improbable to say it at last, but i wanted to mine anyway.
However, accusing us doesn't help HF. Btw, if HF delivered as promised in October, and delivered the MPP as promised, we would be in a good position.
So the problem isn't the stupid customer, the problem is the company of scammers.
Personally, I hope you sue, and get a ruling for a refund in Bitcoin. It would be a good precedent, and force some sobriety on the supplier side of the table. But I expect you will take delivery of your machines and shut up, like everyone else in your shoes. Greed or stupidity; both have the same result. A market where rational investors are on the sidelines. (or taking money from the greedy fools - it's a shame I don't have the lack of ethics required for that) |
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Those who bought the first batch without proof of a tapeout knew they were buying into hot air, but greed overwhelmed any rational consideration of doing business on reasonable terms.
Nah, run the numbers on what return was expected even if everything had gone according to plan. No one who can multiply bought in here because of an abundance of greed, it was never _that_ attractive an offer. The deal needed sweeteners like MPP, refund in BTC, in person meetings, and a partnership with an experienced design house before it sounded attractive. Sorry, but greed is the only thing that can rationalize buying hardware in advance of a working prototype for terms that are 100% down payment and no equity position in the company. Perhaps you were aware of the math that made the offer appear not compelling. I am willing to bet that most buyers considered 1 Ph/s by this time as very unlikely. And the 10 Ph/s we actually have would have been considered laughable. A review of mining bond prices, or cloud hashing prices should make it obvious that the market is still dominated by math challenged fools. Hopefully this latest debacle will teach people to insist on doing business on reasonable terms. It has been an intensely frustrating 18 months being driven out of the market by irrational "TAKE MY MONEY NOW!" speculators. |
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A slightly OT example: For those following along at home who don't get why HF batch 1 customers are so unhappy about their "october" batch 1 units, compare: Instead of paying 55 BTC months ago for a 400GH HF batch 1 unit with uncertain delivery they could have sat comfortably on their coin and today ordered 3.1 TH/s of antminer for immediate delivery for the same price (or just got 360GH/s for 6.3 BTC). Even figuring it in terms of USD, the little antminer devices are lower cost per GH/s than hashfast batch 1 devices which are still not shipping. *sigh.... Yes I wish I had an early KnC order and a Batch1 Avalon. But I didn't. I had a batch 2/3 and same thing happened to that Batch 3. Still pissed. At least I didn't have BFL. In bitcoin mining one in the hand beats two in the bush any day... Pre-orders are simply fail, even KnC would have been fail if BTC hadn't appreciated.... Don't make the mistake of making equivalence between Avalon and any other supplier. What Yifu and Ngzhang did was far worse than what any one else has done in this space by a very long distance. Yifu and Ngzhang stole the batch 2 machines to mine for themselves. Eventually they delivered the batch 3 machines (months late) to batch 2 and 3 customers. Hashfast simply followed the BFL model of promising something that couldn't be delivered. After the BFL example, it was trivial for anyone to know that they were overpromising based on semiconductor fabrication timelines. Those who bought the first batch without proof of a tapeout knew they were buying into hot air, but greed overwhelmed any rational consideration of doing business on reasonable terms. Like BFL before them, increases in the exchange rate will bail out Hashfast's early investors. And BFL and Hashfast will continue to have customers because greed overwhelms all common sense in Bitcoin. |
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I didn't order an asic from HF but if I had I would much rather just get an asic even if it is late. I did make the mistake of pre-ordering a bfl product but I was able to sell the asic when I got it for a profit. It is a huge mistake to preorder hardware from a company that has never delivered a product expecting it to be shipped on time.
I don't see why we should be happy about getting our ASICs delivered late, unless your only objective is to sell it on to some other poor sap and screw him over. I hope most of us bought the equipment to mine with, not to speculate. Mining implies we need to recover the amount in BTC we paid otherwise we'll never break even. Past performance is not a guarantee for the future, ask that to those who ordered batch #3 from Avalon. Or compare that with those who preordered from KNC. First case Avalon had already successfully delivered 2 batches but ended up screwing all their later customers (batch #3 and chip orders). KNC had never delivered a product. BFL has now delivered FPGA's and ASICs but no way anybody should ever order their Monarch (unless they want to repeat your initial BFL experience) Batch 3 and chip orders were both offered a 100% full bitcoin refund. Not true. After all Batch 3 were delivered, they offered refunds to anyone who hadn't received their order. |
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You seem to miss the very important point, actually the only relevant point to this whole conversation. Ken has stated twice now that we would be on an exchange by this time I believe. That isn't a huge cause for concern but it does need to be elaborated on. If we have passed the deadline he previously set, then he should give us a new deadline and a reason why we missed the first one. I believe we have a reason why we missed the first one, now we need a new deadline. Otherwise we can tell each other to be patient up until February and gain nothing for it.
Mistakes are made. Especially in the realm of first-round, early-entry startups within a brand new technology sector. I should hope that Ken is more focused on being operational with the mining and mining-equipment ventures than he is about making shareholders happy with the ability to trade. In addition, he has been working with "Ukyo" (of BitFunder/WeExchange fame) to try and make the transition more effective. There is only so much Ken can do when Ukyo is dragging his feet with his Neo Bee activities. Ukyo HAS STATED that transfer of AM (as well as his own loan) shares is his priority; but I would assume that it's his priority AFTER his Neo Bee work.Ken is obviously holding out for Ukyo's assistance, because Ken also has better things to do. Sure, he probably shouldn't have relied on the dates given by someone as unreliable as Ukyo. However, why are the dates such a big deal? Either you win or you lose. Such is life. You'll find out soon enough and it's out of your control. Sit tight. Relax. Pull the stick out of your butt and maybe smoke a doobie. I don't care. But stop your bitching and realize it won't benefit anything or anyone. I've found your blunder. This is not AM. This is ACTM. AM is AsicMiner, you are in the wrong thread. Good catch. Ken's attempt at brand confusion has captured at least one demonstrable victim. |
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Please reread. The fact that each promise and every verifiable deadline were blown is as much proof of failure as any reasonable person can expect. If you find that insufficient, please give me your definition of failure.
I'm sure you'll continue defending Ken long after others have accepted their losses and moved on. I do not aim to convert every zealot.
Enjoy your "investment."
Here's something a whole lot closer to the truth which relies on fact and not disinformation. 1) P&L Report & Balance sheets deadline: 31st October - Ken posts on this date to say that he would postpone until 15th November due to working on the Klondikes and other resources. 2) P&L Report & Balance sheets deadline: 15th November - Deadline met.3) Progress Report Deadline: 30th November - Deadline met.4) Weekly Update Deadline 11th December - Deadline met.5) Weekly Update Deadline 18th December - Deadline met.Yes, I'm back and apologise to anyone I may have offended in the past, outside the troll brigade. I have tried to sit back, and have done quite well, however it pains me to see disinformation go unchecked when it's my grandchildren's inheritance at stake.  1) correct, was postponed 2) Can you please post a link to complete P&L Report & Balance sheets. 3-5) OK Whatever caused you to be duped into an investment here? I thought you were far smarter with your thorough debunking of mining bonds. |
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Ve, please stop posting silly photoshopped images. You are better than this. Photoshop is so yesterday. Microsoft Paint is where it's at.  On topic content: Is the february announcement a hoax or something to get excited about? The big announcement is scheduled for April 1st. |
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Care to explain why you feel the need to hide behind multiple names?
Two names at two separate times. The first was very very hard on AMC before Ken restructured the company as I thought it could be a scam attempt. After the complete re-write of the IPO Ken was no longer able to legally take all profits and shareholders were given a guarantee about divs up to 0.0025 so I saw that his intentions were honest. I couldn't continue under the same name as a supporter so burned that bridge. A true believer from a skeptic. What could be more convincing. Why would you ever try to hide your conversion? What name did you use then? Let's see these very, very hard negative messages. There weren't many critics so you should stand out. |
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Dude, I have been telling people to stay away from Ken's penny stock scam since before you ever visited this site.
Indeed you might have done on the old thread 5 months ago, I was doing exactly the same under a different name and that's why Ken turned the IPO on it's head and created a much fairer and safer deal for all shareholders. That's when I invested. But I don't recall seeing you on this new thread before, yet all of a sudden you are all over the place like a rash. Care to explain why? I find it entertaining. You are a textbook case of delusional thinking. Care to explain why you feel the need to hide behind multiple names? |
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The creepy thing about Active Mining is some here seem to sincerely believe it will succeed.
This page has 20 posts, 8 of which are from Trolls who weren't interested in ACtM 3 weeks ago. 3 weeks ago pankakake wasn't here, Entropy wasn't here and crumbs was posting once or twice every other day. What's changed? Why are they so concerned about noobs and the 'reputation of Bitcoin' all of a sudden? Ken isn't raising any more money, he hasn't asked for any money from anyone sincne IPO days many months ago - so the 'scam' claims are not based in fact. So can someone explain this sudden perfect storm of Troll activity on here? Anything to do with CryptoTrade??  Dude, I have been telling people to stay away from Ken's penny stock scam since before you ever visited this site. You really should make a spreadsheet showing how AM will capture 10% of the network hashing. I miss VBS and his Excel based comedy. |
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I wish shareholders were generally more demanding. Frequent financial statements that are normalized, honest communication. No unknown should be able to raise millions - if you're new you have to smart small. That's something 99% of the securities here do not manage. But when you ask for any of these, you're automatically a troll who wants "cheap shares". Asked for this for Cognitive, months later 4/5 of the dividend is "missing". I hope after so many "I told you so" people will listen.
Instead, they think hyping the company is going to make the shares valuable. It doesn't work. It lets the issuer get away with anything, and does not bring actual revenue.
The good news is you've got your wish. The demise of BTCT and bitfunder has reduced trading volumes over 1000 fold. No new issues are being sold. The only hope holders of bitcoin securities have is recovery of their investment through dividends. |
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So what's going on here? I see that their website still states November shipping. People still think this will end up well?
The bagholders have been passing around LSD and magic mushrooms since the spring. VBS's magic spreadsheet showing how they would struggle to not 50% the network is now replaced by StuartUK's hand waving about 10% being just around the corner. It's hilarious in a 3 stooges kind of way. |
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Stross released a book this fall that included bitcoins as an element of a galactic economy. It was an interesting idea.
The book was a total turd.
Stross is probably very bitter that thousands of bitcoiners didn't create a buzz for his book and make it a bestseller.
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My point is the Active Mining Thread should not be deleted, however your futile attempts at spreading fud and personal attacks on Ken should, Mr. Bigshot. Goodbye.
I have been calling BS on BFL since the day of their first press release a year ago. And I called out many other scams. Friedcat and Avalon I did not object to - hell, I have more orders with Avalon than Ken does. The valuation of ASICMINER shares I own exceeds all the money that Ken has collected so far.
Ouch. Ouch? I made out like a bandit on those positions. Unlike Ken I saw through Yifus BS very early and had no chips or batch3s ordered. You should have listened then, and you should listen more now. |
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Besides showing that I've been right about this mess for 7 months now, what point were you trying to make?
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I put in an order several months ago for one of their fast hash platinum, ended up wiring little over $9,000. Pretty much after that they've gone silent. I tried to get several updates from them to see the status of the shipping, get assurances of delivery and nothing. Then out of luck i was able to get someone from sales on the phone sometime around thanksgiving weekend. They told me over the phone that they were going to have issues delivering on time as they were still in the manufacturing process.
At this point my first thought was well 1.5Terahash for nine grand isn’t going to make its ROI efficiently based on the current difficulty rate so I asked for a refund. They said yes to the refund but it's been well about 3 weeks since that, no one is answering my emails or tickets, no one answers the phone either (call screening maybe), but since then its been impossible. I am worried this might be a scam since they haven’t shipped, no one has seen their hardware (except from some press releases). And they don’t seem to be honouring their praised and very advertized refund policy either.
I find it hard to believe it takes 3 weeks to get a wire transfer setup to refund the money that was easily sent to them via the same method in around 2 days time when I purchased the order. I am happy to provide proof and transcripts.
Just tell this guy to file a complaint with the FTC. BFL was forced or deliver refunds that way. |
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Someone who can rent me a mining rig ?
Looking for about 1500 kh/S
Say me your price
Uh... Your phone should be able to do 1500 kh/s |
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It was genius to invest when Actm was a viable competitor
It never was. You profited from the hype, congratulations, but don't lie to yourself. Your other investment still has to prove itself. I bought ACTM shares before their first Avalons arrived, because I knew the shares would spike when they started paying dividends. Genius, right?  ACTM had a narrow window of opportunity to be viable, which slammed closed when HashFast de-cloaked. They had a second chance to focus on building a mine with HashFast instead wasting our BTC finishing their own obsolete, leapfrogged chip. I advised them to take this course of action, but was Ignored. I know my other investment has yet to prove itself. Did I ever say "my other investment has proven itself?" No, I didn't. So don't put words in my mouth.  I don't participate in obvious scams because to profit you have to sell to someone. That someone becomes a bagholder and you are in part responsible for it. Your money was used to pump up the scam. Some people are comfortable taking advantage of strangers. I am not. It is more than a moral issue. The law sees things the same way, and does on occasion force those that profit from scams to return their gains to compensate the ultimate victims. Many of Bernie Madoff's investors ended up with bills from the SEC and lost in court when they fought the issue. Only an idiot would advertise profiting off a scam, even if he was unaware he was participating in one initially. Maybe the SEC will get around to forcing Theymos to refund the money he made 'investing' with Pirateat40 :-) |
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The current state of AMC/VMC/AM threads is typical for the progression of a scam.
Just look at the pirate threads, or Patrick Harnett's threads, Nefario's, or tradefortress, BFL, etc, etc.
Essentially everyone can smell the rotting corpses under the pretty facade. But a core of delusional suckers, unable to accept their losses are hanging around cheer leading, and hoping for anything that might validate their bad choices. Around this you have an array of folks stopping by for entertainment like at any public disaster. Then there is the group of folks warning away any naive schmucks who might wander in and become a bagholder.
It all makes for a lot of noise and light.
Is it unpleasant for those aforementioned bag holders? I'm sure it is. But the sooner they come around to recognizing their losses and taking honorable actions to mitigate the losses, the better it is for everyone.
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