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541  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN]SummerCoin|POS|Trade on poloniex and bittrex on: May 04, 2014, 08:14:47 AM
I tried to build the current source from GIT on Gentoo as the Readme instructs but I dot this error:

Code:
user@miningrig ~/SUMC/src $ make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP= BDB_INCLUDE_PATH='/usr/include/db4.8'
g++ -c -O2  -pthread -Wall -Wextra -Wno-ignored-qualifiers -Wformat -Wformat-security -Wno-unused-parameter -g -DBOOST_SPIRIT_THREADSAFE -I/home/user/SUMC/src -I/home/user/SUMC/src/obj -I/usr/include/db4.8 -DUSE_IPV6=1 -I/home/user/SUMC/src/leveldb/include -I/home/user/SUMC/src/leveldb/helpers -DHAVE_BUILD_INFO -fno-stack-protector -fstack-protector-all -Wstack-protector -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2  -fpermissive -MMD -MF obj/groestl.d -o obj/groestl.o groestl.c
<command-line>:0:0: warning: "_FORTIFY_SOURCE" redefined [enabled by default]
groestl.c:1:0: note: this is the location of the previous definition
groestl.c: In function âvoid groestl_small_close(sph_groestl_small_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â:
groestl.c:2816:17: warning: variable âbufâ set but not used [-Wunused-but-set-variable]
groestl.c: In function âvoid groestl_big_close(sph_groestl_big_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â:
groestl.c:2952:17: warning: variable âbufâ set but not used [-Wunused-but-set-variable]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl224_init(void*)â:
groestl.c:3013:28: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_small_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2738:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_small_init(sph_groestl_small_context*, unsigned int)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl224(void*, const void*, size_t)â:
groestl.c:3020:34: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_small_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2771:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_small_core(sph_groestl_small_context*, const void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl224_close(void*, void*)â:
groestl.c:3027:39: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_small_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2813:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_small_close(sph_groestl_small_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl224_addbits_and_close(void*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*)â:
groestl.c:3034:40: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_small_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2813:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_small_close(sph_groestl_small_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl256_init(void*)â:
groestl.c:3041:28: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_small_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2738:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_small_init(sph_groestl_small_context*, unsigned int)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl256(void*, const void*, size_t)â:
groestl.c:3048:34: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_small_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2771:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_small_core(sph_groestl_small_context*, const void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl256_close(void*, void*)â:
groestl.c:3055:39: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_small_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2813:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_small_close(sph_groestl_small_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl256_addbits_and_close(void*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*)â:
groestl.c:3062:40: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_small_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2813:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_small_close(sph_groestl_small_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl384_init(void*)â:
groestl.c:3069:26: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_big_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2874:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_big_init(sph_groestl_big_context*, unsigned int)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl384(void*, const void*, size_t)â:
groestl.c:3076:32: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_big_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2907:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_big_core(sph_groestl_big_context*, const void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl384_close(void*, void*)â:
groestl.c:3083:37: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_big_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2949:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_big_close(sph_groestl_big_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl384_addbits_and_close(void*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*)â:
groestl.c:3090:38: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_big_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2949:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_big_close(sph_groestl_big_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl512_init(void*)â:
groestl.c:3097:26: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_big_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2874:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_big_init(sph_groestl_big_context*, unsigned int)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl512(void*, const void*, size_t)â:
groestl.c:3104:32: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_big_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2907:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_big_core(sph_groestl_big_context*, const void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl512_close(void*, void*)â:
groestl.c:3111:37: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_big_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2949:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_big_close(sph_groestl_big_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: In function âvoid sph_groestl512_addbits_and_close(void*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*)â:
groestl.c:3118:38: warning: invalid conversion from âvoid*â to âsph_groestl_big_context*â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c:2949:1: warning:   initializing argument 1 of âvoid groestl_big_close(sph_groestl_big_context*, unsigned int, unsigned int, void*, size_t)â [-fpermissive]
groestl.c: At global scope:
groestl.c:3122:1: fatal error: opening dependency file obj/groestl.d: No such file or directory
compilation terminated.
make: *** [obj/groestl.o] Error 1
542  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN]SummerCoin|POS|Trade on poloniex and bittrex on: May 03, 2014, 10:46:41 PM
Did I loose some SUM when my staking block got orphaned? (WTF orhaned staking block is anyway... Huh)

543  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: May 03, 2014, 08:05:08 PM
A lot of people get 2.3Mh with their 280x's anyway, and your screenshots prove nothing.
Well, i imagined this kind of response, but i don't know what could prove i have done it without releasing the code. If you have any ideas, please tell me!

Well, you could start by forging a screenshot from a running sph-sgminer instead of the CPU miner if you try to prove that you improved the GPU mining performance. That would be a nice start.


Otherwise, I think a huge price fall is imminent. A lot of buy orders (including mine) got cleared on Cryptsy and they don't want to grow back.
544  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: May 03, 2014, 04:44:51 PM
Just picked up another 1100. Current status: SMUG  Cool

Somebody hit my 1000@2.7 order on Cryptsy today. (I put it there after I sold during the pump.) It was already at 0.0029-ish when I noticed that.
I wonder if I should sell for 2.9 and place the 1000@2.7 back. Roll Eyes

I sold for 0.003 and bought back at 0.0027 Wink But I doubt I will be able to repeat the sell part today as well. The price didn't just fall a bit, it got massively hammered down. Some panic is imminent. Sad
I guess it's time to withdraw to a secured wallet and fire up that node.
545  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: SaveGox.com on: May 03, 2014, 12:06:39 AM
I see.  Are you going to make the same offer to Mr. Karpelès, then?  Or is he the expert that you intend to hire to investigate the matter?

Ok Mark. You should take your old office to get you comfortable. Let's sit behind your desk and drink your coffee. Now, your new job is to sit there and try to remember how exactly you lost all that money. We believe the best way to remember is to continue doing the exact same thing you did during the last years. So, turn your display on and pick everything up where you left it. Just act neutrally like this whole mess with the courts and the media never happed. Once you remember, you can go on doing what every you want. Good luck and welcome at home.
546  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: May 02, 2014, 09:56:27 PM
yes lets all do that until the price goes super fkin low and people lose faith

It is actually going up as we speak. Shocked
I like this coin. I always find the low points. Grin
547  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: May 02, 2014, 09:39:59 PM
Just picked up another 1100. Current status: SMUG  Cool

Somebody hit my 1000@2.7 order on Cryptsy today. (I put it there after I sold during the pump.) It was already at 0.0029-ish when I noticed that.
I wonder if I should sell for 2.9 and place the 1000@2.7 back. Roll Eyes
548  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN]SummerCoin|POS|Trade on poloniex and bittrex on: May 02, 2014, 09:05:38 PM
Hover your mouse over the green checkmark once synced and it will tell you the block height.
I hope that computer and the wallet don't have to be turned on all the time

It needs to be continuously opened.
549  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN]SummerCoin|POS|Trade on poloniex and bittrex on: May 02, 2014, 07:44:48 PM
Guys, about the PoS working.
Should I resend all my summercoins in total to my wallet, in order to make single entry? So I will get 10% from that huge block, ain't I?
Or the only important thing is weight? Should I bother resending and wait for another 24h?

I am wondering about the same thing.
I used a pool which paid me after every single block reward which was acquired by the pool, so I have hundreds of small inputs on my address.
And my staking reward is next to nothing. Even the idle CPU burns more electricity than my staking reward worth. Angry
550  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: More proof that savegox.com is a sham. on: May 01, 2014, 09:32:08 PM
Phinnaeus while you're highly entertaining I'm afraid you're looking at facebook bots.

Not sure what you mean by Facebook Bots, but the majority of the FB pages I've addressed were created on September 10, 2012, some of which recently point toward Bitcoin entities.



I guess he means these Facebook accounts probably aren't controlled by the represented human beings.
It is possible that somebody knew some of these people for a certain extent and had a reason to mock them.
May be a true blood troll read the story ~10 years ago and it popped up in his mind when he brainstormed in the pedophile topic. Or somebody who got kicked out of the group.

Why would anybody communicate on Facebook like this?
If you regularly use Facebook anyway, then sure, you might also try to use it for some "encrypted" messaging because you got used to it and it passes as "noise".
But to use it only for sending messages which should never become public...?
Facebook let's you set who sees your posts and who does not. why not use that for these kind of messages? (Letting alone the truly secure channels...)
551  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 30, 2014, 06:55:21 PM
im good, but pretty busy with project "dark ice" im hoping to be done soon (tm) ish :-p lol

Jeez. I still have a lot of Haisenberg HEX coins to sell and now you come up with a dark colored meth shitcoin? Roll Eyes Cheesy Grin
552  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN]SummerCoin|X11/POS coin|Hotter than ever on: April 30, 2014, 04:31:20 PM
HashHarder Miners After Block 10,000.. Question

After 10,000 is reached - those of you who still have rigs hashing away - as that hash will be pointless, I will be redirecting the hash to another of the X11 Pools.

Now I only have a few - so please let me know which pool you wish me to redirect to. Also - please make sure that you change your workername at that stage to reflect the new coin.

If we can have a consensus then I will action the consensus. Even if its a X11 coin I don't currently have on HashHarder.



DRK would be only logical.
553  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: SaveGox.com on: April 30, 2014, 12:05:23 PM
Was there any information released regarding how Sunlot would convert the BTC balances into equity stakes?
For obvious reasons, I had only BTC left inside Gox. But for the same reason, those don't worth much if you count their ~100 $/BTC closing price.
554  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: [GOX] Crime Scene Investigation, Case #MG744 on: April 30, 2014, 02:50:18 AM
I thought about this a little more and it still doesn't add up.

Let's say I am afraid I might need 75M USD if I don't want to go into jail or run and hide for many years.
And I think I can nefariously borrow ~1M BTC and ~50M USD from my customers+creditors without letting anyone know.
I haven't done anything which would call for blood. In worst case I face a huge penalty cheque and/or some bearable amount of jail time.
But I already have enough USD and BTC to run and hide forever from the law if things go bad and I really don't want to risk getting into jail.

What do I do?

A.) I use as many of the customer funds for as long as possible to earn as many USD and/or BTC as possible while I still have a chance to keep this all hidden.
I occasionally manipulate the price, delay some deposits/withdrawals, bribe some other exchanges to follow my orders, etc, etc.
But I make sure that even if some unforeseeable events might cause a serious glitch in my system which exposes some elements of my rogue game, I might still recover and cover it all up with some story (I hope nobody will put too much work into investigations as long as nobody feels personally hurt by me) or at least I can instantly RUN!!!
So basically I constantly prepare for running in any minute but I try to avoid the necessity of running for as long as possible (forever if it all goes fine) as much as possible.
If everything collapses (regardless of my precautions because I manage to prove that I was still stupid after all) and I need to run, then I am already running before anybody knows.

B.) I use basically all the customer funds to earn as many USD and/or BTC as possible like there is no tomorrow.
I commit yet another very transparent crime which will only worsen my case when everything collapses around me. And it will surely collapse. I am fully aware of that because I stole/wasted/lost basically all the assets. I know there is no way back, no way out... well, other than running but I don't even consider that option. (Why...? Seriously... WHY?)
I believe I can steel several hundred million USD on plain sight to pay that ~75M USD for my past crimes so I become completely clean.
I hope nobody will care about this latest crime of mine which is by the way the biggest of them all. I just hope I will be able to come up with yet another crime to be able to pay my next penalty. Or I am stupid enough to think I will solve this (!latest and biggest!) crime with a simple lie. It will be a lot easier to face the penalty for this (!biggest of my!) crime than it would have been for my past crimes.
-> I am stupid enough to think the police will accept the money I just stole on plain sight to pay the penalty for all (old and recent) crimes and simply let me alone (with some money in my pockets)!?
I don't have any real escape plan. I don't care if I need to face the music. I am not afraid people might demand blood instead of money and/or jail time. I don't care that now I have even more penalty cheques and/ jail time coming. I am stupid as that.

C.) I am simply insane and I decide it will be a much more fun exploit to waste all the customer funds than simply hanging myself in the closet today (because I have nothing better to do). I can do that any day, before or after this (even inside the jail).
It will be a fun story. I didn't live for nothing. My life has a meaning now, I might make it into the history books.
Ok, let's do it!


I would vote for C. A is too demanding and B is way too stupid.
555  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: [GOX] Crime Scene Investigation, Case #MG744 on: April 29, 2014, 02:25:44 AM
This was a very interesting article by the way: http://www.dailytech.com/Bitcoin+King+Pt+II+Mt+Goxs+Dictator+Karpels+Proves+Tragically+Flawed/article34452.htm

It alleges that mk sold the coins for about 75 million around April and presents some good circumstantial evidence for it. Same author also says: "[MK] bought a luxury condo in Megura Ward, a pricier part of Tokyo". This was also around the time twobitidiot declared war on Vanessen - maybe unrelated, but MK did try to run with our 200k btc - or raughly 120 million dollars - and his past history shows he is a dishonest man who tried to cover up the theft of a million btc by continuing to operate a fractional reserve.

His lies are up. Whatever happened, he was primarily responsible for it, and it may well be that he was responsible in a criminal way.

Great article, a true must read.


The most believable Gox-loss story I have ever read. And I agree with the author, it is still a sad story for everyone.

For one part, it would confirm some of my fears (for example, that most of those big price rises were caused by Gox, so I can't expect another like those without yet catastrophic scams which can burn me too).

For another part: I must admit that I share some (but very far from all) personality attributes with Karpelés.
Don't get me wrong. I didn't say I think we are similar (I wouldn't dare to admit something like that). But I see some matches and thus I fear that I could replicate a similar failure if I were in his place. And it makes me thinking about my future plans.
556  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: SaveGox.com on: April 29, 2014, 02:08:52 AM
Well...
May be I misinterpreted the communication of this group though the media, but I think one of your promises was to be as transparent and verbose as humanly and/or professionally possible/allowed.
But I am yet to receive my very first "information package" on the email address I used to sign up.
All I know for a fact that some people with questionable/unclear histories/intentions want to do something with Gox if the Japanes court allows. And they are sweating the deal by promising they will try to recover all  losses.
And then there is this shadowy talk on these forums about "various things are in motion under the radar, more comes later". -> Not really transparent and verbose if you ask me. Tongue
557  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 28, 2014, 04:25:11 AM
Just more people like darkcoin than blackcoin...

I will like it again after (and if) it sells itself for cheap again. Cheesy
I am starting to worry I will miss this train. It's more similar to a big DOGE pump with a long pump and slow decay rather than a BlackCoin kind of quick pump and lightning fast all-in big dump. Or it's neither, in which case my 4 BTC will never buy my 1100 DRK back. Undecided
558  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 28, 2014, 03:47:11 AM
Is DarkSend opensource already? Shocked
How could you start a masternode after building darkcoind from source which doesn't have the reqiured code?

you have to wget the compiled daemon from darkcoin.io/download/rc/darkcoind

I forgot to quote. Check again.
559  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 28, 2014, 03:45:00 AM
Was about to try my hand at a masternode, but running into the dependencies that don't exist problem... CAn't install dependency because dependency is fake....

Need to install libboost-program-options, but there is no such package.
Need to install libboost-thread, but there is no such package.

My desktop has them installed. apt-get install on the server for the same packages and they don't exist in repo...

Quote from: bullshit and lies
anon@server:~/darkcoin/src# make -f makefile.unix
/bin/sh ../share/genbuild.sh obj/build.h
g++ -O2 -pthread -Wall -Wextra -Wformat -Wformat-security -Wno-unused-parameter -g -DBOOST_SPIRIT_THREADSAFE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -I/root/darkcoin/src -I/root/darkcoin/src/obj -DUSE_UPNP=0 -DUSE_IPV6=1 -I/root/darkcoin/src/leveldb/include -I/root/darkcoin/src/leveldb/helpers -DHAVE_BUILD_INFO -fno-stack-protector -fstack-protector-all -Wstack-protector -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2  -o darkcoind leveldb/libleveldb.a obj/alert.o obj/version.o obj/checkpoints.o obj/netbase.o obj/addrman.o obj/crypter.o obj/key.o obj/db.o obj/init.o obj/keystore.o obj/main.o obj/net.o obj/protocol.o obj/bitcoinrpc.o obj/rpcdump.o obj/rpcnet.o obj/rpcmining.o obj/rpcwallet.o obj/rpcblockchain.o obj/rpcrawtransaction.o obj/script.o obj/sync.o obj/util.o obj/wallet.o obj/walletdb.o obj/hash.o obj/bloom.o obj/noui.o obj/leveldb.o obj/txdb.o obj/cubehash.o obj/luffa.o obj/aes_helper.o obj/echo.o obj/shavite.o obj/simd.o obj/blake.o obj/bmw.o obj/groestl.o obj/jh.o obj/keccak.o obj/skein.o -Wl,-z,relro -Wl,-z,now   -Wl,-Bdynamic -l boost_system -l boost_filesystem -l boost_program_options -l boost_thread -l db_cxx -l ssl -l crypto -l miniupnpc -Wl,-Bdynamic -l z -l dl -l pthread /root/darkcoin/src/leveldb/libleveldb.a /root/darkcoin/src/leveldb/libmemenv.a
/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_program_options
/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_thread
collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
make: *** [darkcoind] Error 1
anon@server:~/darkcoin/src#

Quote from: bullshit and lies
anon@server:~/darkcoin/src# apt-get install libboost-program-options
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
E: Unable to locate package libboost-program-options
anon@server:~/darkcoin/src# apt-get install libboost-thread
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
E: Unable to locate package libboost-thread
anon@server:~/darkcoin/src#

Quote from: bullpiss and falsehoods
anon@server:~/darkcoin/src# apt-get upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
anon@server:~/darkcoin/src#

I know what's missing. I know I have to install it. But it doesn't exist...


Is DarkSend opensource already? Shocked
How could you start a masternode after building darkcoind from a source which doesn't have the reqiured code?
560  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 27, 2014, 05:25:13 AM
Someone is working hard to keep the price below 0.00385 on Cryptsy. They've been at it for the last 2 hours.

No, somebody is working on it to stop the fall before it hits my buy order. Tongue
While I believe that this coin has the most promising future of all altcoins, I also believe that this was a simple pump and the price will fall below 0.003 (not below ~0.0025 though, 0.0013 is history, I think) like with the rest of the pumped coins. It's no different. Not yet.
Just take a look, even the mighty BTC felt back eventually and LTC followed it (not that I personally ever saw any future for LTC and I completely wrote if off after GridSeed came, but some did).
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