Update: Still no update.  |
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I instructed them how to find their overraked hands through pokertracker4.
Could you post a brief tutorial, or a link to a post with the info? Dear Betcoin,
I volunteer to determine exactly how much money was taken that should not have been while you "unintentionally" increased the rake cap at your cash games from October 31st 2015 - December 9th 2015.
I will send you a list of exactly how much you owe to each player and a list of the specific hands that were over raked and won by the player.
Hands won by players that were receiving 100%+ rakeback at the time of the hand will not be added to the amount owed.
Players who received more rakeback than they paid during this period will be excluded from any refund.
The max refund any player will be eligible to receive will be determined as follows:
(Total Rake Paid by Player during period) - (Total Rakeback paid to player during period) = Maximum Refund
Please send me the hand history of every cash game you dealt from October 31st to December 10th as well as an itemized list of all rake back paid to each player.
If you are worried about how it would look when the truth was revealed or simply would rather keep the money you stole from you players, simply ignore this request.
Sincerely,
TwitchySeal
PS - Please remove holecards as it would be unethical for you to give any player (past or present) access to that sort of info (not that you have any sort of privacy policy....or ethics)
The % they took isn't the issue, it's the cap.
For example, on the heads up tables that should have never been raked more than 1 chip, they were taking 5.
The rake used to be a consistant 2.5% with a cap that varried based on total players and stakes.
They would have to go through each stake, determine the max pot size that would be unaffected by the correct cap, and then sort all pots larger than that.
For example:
At .5/1 6max table, the rake was advertised 2.5% with a cap of 2 chips. They "unintentionally" increased the cap to 6 chips.
2.5% of 80 = 2
So any pot 80 chips or smaller was not affected.
I think it would be reasonable to use the following rounding:
All pots 80-120 chips be treated as if they were 100 chips and raked 2.5 chips with .5 chips needing to be refunded to the winner of the pot.
All pots 120-160 would require a 1.5 chip refund.
All pots 160-200 would require a 2.5 chip refund.
All pots 200-240 = 3.5 chip refund
Any pot greater than 240 = 4 chip refund.
Betcoin obviously ignored my offer. In related news, It's now March 2, and they have yet to make a statement as promised here:  I know ungod has attempted to set up an appointment to speak with management, but was denied. Not sure of exact details why. |
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What's wrong about paying for reviews? It's something every company does and it's incredibly common on the web. You want to refuse services of every company who bought views/reviews/trafic or things like this? Your choice but it's going to be tough.
For the stealing of 10's of btc... I'll look into it but I seriously doubt you. They're a huge casino with excellent reputation. Why exchanging their reputation for 100 btc?
They pay players to leave reviews which appear unsolicited and genuine, all the while ignoring all of the allegations I listed. I believe this is unethical and I don't think every company does this, but if they did, I don't see how it would affect whether it was ethical or not. As far as the theft: In each of the biggest examples I've proven, the funds were initially taken unintentionally (they claimed this, and I believe them) They were taken by over raking cash game pots, so it went on unnoticed for a while. Once it was brought to their attention rather than return the funds immediately and fix the issue causing the over rake, they did nothing and continued to over rake for weeks or months then attempted to cover the issue up or simply ignore it - either way it's clear they plan on keeping the funds, so I think it's fair to consider them stolen. Read the accusations objectively, I'm interested in and will respect all opinions. So far those who have supported betcoin after reading the accusations have either just ignored me (like betcoin.ag and ftwbtc) or resorted to calling me names. |
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Come on. Everybody does it.
No, they don't. Business is business.
Dishonest business is not honest business though. You don't see the difference between paying someone publicly to "wear" an advertisement vs paying someone privately to leave a personal review? Really? And to be perfectly honest : as long as their service is good and legit I don't mind if people are paid to make a good review.
If they were honest and provided good service to all, there would be no need to pay for good reviews. (You may notice this particular paid review also served as a way to push serious recent allegations to the next page.) [were talking about Betcoin.ag now, in case anyone isn't following] I gave their site a try and it's really good (I tested the poker tournaments).
They are really good at some things, yes. Lying, stealing, ignoring criticism...wait never mind, they aren't really good at anything actually. |
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i (and most of the other supporters) would not support that guy if it is proven that he is a paid shill.
Thanks.
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Multiple successful trades with OP without issue here.
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Hey,
-snip-
If you pm site rep here he is pretty responsive. Might want to edit out details from post. |
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I have checked my rake paid on betcoin vs. what xiao has sent me on several occasions and always found it to be 2-5% too little. I have addressed this with him on several occasions and he doesn't agree. This is a big deal considering that I also have a Gold VIP level I referred to him, whom of which I am supposed to receive 5% rake paid. This 2-5% short also does not include any fees paid to WPN for tournaments. I have thus far chose not to make a big deal out of this because I can not get a better deal anywhere else, but I feel this information should be known.
Ungod, is your alternate forum name "xxlithiumx"? If so, we've been over this in private message and the rakeback you were receiving has always been consistent to within 1% with the data I'm supplied with. Regarding your referral, if he's not playing, I can't pay you. Even if he tells you he's played a lot last week, it doesn't necessarily mean he's paid a lot of rake. Why would there be a 1% margin of error based on the numbers you receive? Please, respond to this as well. New: Refer-a-friend, Private Message me their login name and sign-up date and get 5% of their net rake sent to you each week! Who could resist 50% to 190% rakeback?
Also please note that for WPN shared tournaments only 50% of the rake you pay counts towards VIP and my rakeback service as the other 50% goes to the WPN network.
Xiao, will you please clarify this statement. Did betcoin tell you this? Was it a typo? |
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-snip
I'm making this post because I feel that misinformation is being spread on a site that I play on, and that directly hurts me as it makes it less likely that new players will check the site out. While I don't play all day every day, I am a Silver 1 VIP level, so I do put in solid volume. Also, overblowing things that don't matter makes it less likely that if something serious ever does crop up, it will be acknowledged and dealt with. The crying wolf syndrome if you will.
-OhNevermindMe
ONM, I assume you're referring to me here. Betcoin refuses to defend itseslf, but since you seem to be willing, please let me know if there's anything at all I've accused Betcoin of that isn't 100% true. I've been trying to work things out with Betcoin for months, literally - they are the ones that refuse to cooperate. Edit: if you haven't yet, please read this thread, I outline most of the issues in the OP. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.msg13507632#msg13507632This goes for any Betcoin supporter, please explain why you think it's ok for Betcoin to ignore these issues, or explain why you don't believe the accusations to be true. That is the only post that this guy has made...obviously an account made by an old member just to post the same praises...why are all the praising posts all from new members without prior posts. hum... Actually I've played a lot with him (a lot more than he may realize if he's who I think he is and lives in NJ) and think he's a rational thinker. I think he may not be fully informed on all that Betcoin is being accused of. Another place I hope he checks out: http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/showthread.php?11404-Betcoin-ag-Scams-Scandals-and-Shadiness-Galore |
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-snip
I'm making this post because I feel that misinformation is being spread on a site that I play on, and that directly hurts me as it makes it less likely that new players will check the site out. While I don't play all day every day, I am a Silver 1 VIP level, so I do put in solid volume. Also, overblowing things that don't matter makes it less likely that if something serious ever does crop up, it will be acknowledged and dealt with. The crying wolf syndrome if you will.
-OhNevermindMe
ONM, I assume you're referring to me here. Betcoin refuses to defend itseslf, but since you seem to be willing, please let me know if there's anything at all I've accused Betcoin of that isn't 100% true. I've been trying to work things out with Betcoin for months, literally - they are the ones that refuse to cooperate. Edit: if you haven't yet, please read this thread, I outline most of the issues in the OP. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.msg13507632#msg13507632This goes for any Betcoin supporter, please explain why you think it's ok for Betcoin to ignore these issues, or explain why you don't believe the accusations to be true. |
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I will not waste my time on a player like you |
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"Bitcoin has come a long way since its inception over 8 years ago"
LOL, they have only been around about 2 years LOL.
If they have been around 8 years how come the cash tables usually have less then 50 players....Twichy tell them what they are doing wrong and to pay of the over raked they collected.
wwwin, reread your quotation again... Jessica, reread your quotation again... |
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@drsnaggles Thanks, alot of good advice and info I had no idea about. I'm definitely going to put together some sort of formal complaint to and see where i can get it to stick. I looked into Ali Bagheri and Magnus Lindberg, and can't imagine they have been involved with Betcoin for long after they launched. They seem to have developed whatever software Betcoin is using for WPN tournaments to automatically convert BTC to USD and then back to BTC should the player cash. I don't think they developed it with Betcoin as it is today in mind. For those who don't know, when you buy in to these tournaments, there is no log or record available. Not for the player and support often has no clue what tournaments someone played. Players get screwed constantly when tournaments are cancelled, or they unregister from a tournament but don't get a refund. Support basically has to take their word that it ever happened. To me, this is the sign of a business using software they don't understand. Not a business run by the guys who developed it. I think this is the Betcoin that the Bagheri and Lindberg sold:  Not this:  |
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New: Refer-a-friend, Private Message me their login name and sign-up date and get 5% of their net rake sent to you each week! Who could resist 50% to 190% rakeback?
Also please note that for WPN shared tournaments only 50% of the rake you pay counts towards VIP and my rakeback service as the other 50% goes to the WPN network.
Xiao, will you please clarify this statement. Did betcoin tell you this? Was it a typo? |
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New: Refer-a-friend, Private Message me their login name and sign-up date and get 5% of their net rake sent to you each week! Who could resist 50% to 190% rakeback?
Also please note that for WPN shared tournaments only 50% of the rake you pay counts towards VIP and my rakeback service as the other 50% goes to the WPN network.
Xiao, will you please clarify this statement. Did betcoin tell you this? Was it a typo? |
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Will there be an update? Will you address this please? So I noticed recently Xiao posted this: Also please note that for WPN shared tournaments only 50% of the rake you pay counts towards VIP and my rakeback service as the other 50% goes to the WPN network. So I did some investigating because I have paid thousands in WPN MTT fees and never heard of this. It's not mentioned anywhere on Betcoins site. In a forum post I found, they even stated the oppopsite: https://www.betcoin.ag/vip-affiliate-rakeback-tourney-fees-betcoin-explainedBetcoin receives 50% of the fees players pay when entering WPN tournaments and sitngos. For the VIP program Betcoin pays you as if Betcoin had received 100% of the fee even though Betcoin received only 50% of the fee. September 1st I opened a ticket because of significant missing rakeback and status points which lead to my eventual ban and all of this when they refused to address the situation so I decided to ask support if it was true.It was my lucky day as the ever so pleasant "Expert Support Supervisor" George was on duty: Betcoin George
Expert Support Supervisor Chat started
Hi, Im trying to figure out if betcoin has been paying 50% or 100% of vip rewards for WPN mtts
Are you an affiliate or a VIP?
i was a VIP till you banned me
So if your banned why does it matter?
because I want to know how much you technically owe me and all the other players xiao made a post saying you only pay 50% vip rewards, and that shouldn't be the case, but it would explain why i was missing so much rakeback
I will not waste my time on a player like you my energy is better spent helping others. Anything said to you in a manner becomes a way for you to run to the forums. If we banned you nothing is owed to you. You are a very sad person find something better to do with your time other than to try to hurt others.
im just trying to get the truth
I am a big believer that all you put out there will come back tenfold. Take care. I am done with this conversation. I'm guessing george wasnt the employee who wrote me this pm recently: The staff looks at all the work you put in and appreciates your work ethic and commitment. You really should be earning good bitcoin and building equity instead of having everything deleted from Betcoin or moved to the next page of the forum as more posts are added. Ultimately, you just waste time while keeping Betcoin on the front page of the thread which means more traffic, more signature campaign members, etc. We think you have a strong work ethic and could be a great contributor as you once were. The amount of time and energy you have put in so far is truly remarkable. It shows us that we have something special because every great company has people this passionate, but we want to channel your passion to help you more as you once were a great member of the community. We look forward to your thoughts.
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So I noticed recently Xiao posted this: Also please note that for WPN shared tournaments only 50% of the rake you pay counts towards VIP and my rakeback service as the other 50% goes to the WPN network. So I did some investigating because I have paid thousands in WPN MTT fees and never heard of this "Players only get half of their normal rakeback for WPN mtts". It's not mentioned anywhere on Betcoins site. In a forum post I found, they even stated the oppopsite: https://www.betcoin.ag/vip-affiliate-rakeback-tourney-fees-betcoin-explainedBetcoin receives 50% of the fees players pay when entering WPN tournaments and sitngos. For the VIP program Betcoin pays you as if Betcoin had received 100% of the fee even though Betcoin received only 50% of the fee. September 1st I opened a ticket because of significant missing rakeback and status points which was the reason I quit playing there in October, and eventually got banned for not shutting up all the missing money. I decided to hop on live chat and see if they were just paying me half the whole time and didn't want to admit it. It was my lucky day as the ever so pleasant "Expert Support Supervisor" George was on duty: Betcoin George
Expert Support Supervisor Chat started
Hi, Im trying to figure out if betcoin has been paying 50% or 100% of vip rewards for WPN mtts
Are you an affiliate or a VIP?
i was a VIP till you banned me
So if your banned why does it matter?
because I want to know how much you technically owe me and all the other players xiao made a post saying you only pay 50% vip rewards, and that shouldn't be the case, but it would explain why i was missing so much rakeback
I will not waste my time on a player like you my energy is better spent helping others. Anything said to you in a manner becomes a way for you to run to the forums. If we banned you nothing is owed to you. You are a very sad person find something better to do with your time other than to try to hurt others.
im just trying to get the truth
I am a big believer that all you put out there will come back tenfold. Take care. I am done with this conversation. ( note: the money owed to me took place from March - Mid October, I estimate it between 3 and 4 BTC) They banned me in november for refusing to shut up about the missing rakeback) I'm guessing george wasnt the employee who wrote me this pm recently: The staff looks at all the work you put in and appreciates your work ethic and commitment. You really should be earning good bitcoin and building equity instead of having everything deleted from Betcoin or moved to the next page of the forum as more posts are added. Ultimately, you just waste time while keeping Betcoin on the front page of the thread which means more traffic, more signature campaign members, etc. We think you have a strong work ethic and could be a great contributor as you once were. The amount of time and energy you have put in so far is truly remarkable. It shows us that we have something special because every great company has people this passionate, but we want to channel your passion to help you more as you once were a great member of the community. We look forward to your thoughts.
[/quote] |
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You won't find mention of one anywhere: http://www.winningpokernetwork.com/Betcoin may not even have a headquarters. Up until a few months ago it was literally just 3 or 4 guys running the show. Now they have 4 or 5 CS people and the 3 or 4 guys are now the "managers" I live in NJ and have played full time on the regulated sites here since day 1. I also play on 5dimes, betdsi and moneybooker which are all partners of WPN (unlike Betcoin) and they have no problem letting me play and they know where I live. ACR, Blackchip Truepoker (also WPN partners) won't let me play. I can't play on Bodog either. Betcris doesn't accept Americans at all anymore. I'm not sure how Phil gets away with his identity and position in the public, but I know the feds have tried and failed at shutting down Bovada and arresting Calvin Ayres, and probably aren't to happy with WPN either. I think ACR fucked up in early 2014. They were airing the WSOP National Championship from the Boardwalk in Atlantic City on ESPN, sponsored by WSOP.com (a regulated NJ site). ACR bought a ton of commercials, literally one every break at least making "legal online poker" look like a joke compared to the tournaments they guaranteed. Caesers got pissed and got NJDGE to do something - it worked. Getting back to Betcoin- They aren't even part of WPN. They're in the Winning Tournament Network (WTN) which means WPN sells them entries to their tournaments for 50% of the fee. Betcoin has their own network of players, they run their own cash games and Bitcoin only tournaments, and nobody even know who the fuck they are. There's nobody in costa rica that knows anything about how Betcoin runs their business any more than you or me. I dont want to make it look like Im defending WPN or especially Betcoin in any way, because I fully believe Betcoin is a bunch of amateurs that is about to go broke/run (but not yet), but WPN is not "unregulated" based on law. As mentioned and outlined in my previous post, they are located in Costa Rica. The legal enviroment in Costa Rica allows them to open up a Pokerroom or Sportsbook and the Costa Rica government has laws/rules for that (see my link provided in previous post - run it through google translator if you dont speak spanish - I cant find any official english version of it). Is this creating trust when dealing with them? No, I dont think so, but since Costa Rica has a jurisdiction, the legal papers are valid. In regards to Calvin and Bodog, well, Calvin is the uncle scrooge or Richard Bronson of gaming, he probably has a billion on his account - its a different class, but its a good example, because he did break the law and bodog.com was seized by the feds - no matter how big he is/was. An operation like WPN for Calvin would be peanuts.. not worth his style, but he could do it whenever. I guess he wont be visiting USA anytime soon: http://www.flushdraw.net/news/feds-want-calvin-ayre-extradited-united-states/Didnt he go to Manila at some point? Phil, on the other hand, is even officially announcing the expansion: http://pokerfuse.com/news/law-and-regulation/27253-wpn-ceo-phil-nagy-legalized-poker-overrated/He would have to be suicidal to say that without any legal back up. Hes hiding behind the Costa Rica law, which is his right to do so. Feds wont be happy but hes not breaking the law, hes withdrawing step by step from everywhere where regulation started and looking for more unregulated ones. Now, Betcoin must have some sort of contract with WPN, else they wouldnt be able on that network and WPN has the responsibility of ensuring the security when running the tournaments. You can sign up with any network depending on your budget, but that network provider cant shift responsibility to others - its them who own the tournaments. Betcoins own tournaments is a different thing .. I actually didnt had this in mind. You are absolutely right, that is proper bullshit without any legal ground I can see - perhaps they have a parental mailbox company set up in Costa Rica. If not just report them to some international cybercrime unit (Europol should have one). I just have a hard time believing they would be running all this with "nothing" .. often it appears like nothing, but there is at least some "registration" somewhere. Having said all that, Im curious now myself about the exact whereabouts of them... will be back. Edit:For what its worth, their own TCs are saying: https://www.betcoin.ag/support/betcoin-poker-terms-service-tos25. GOVERNING LAW
These Agreements shall be governed by and interpreted in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong. You irrevocably agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Curacao in The Netherlands Antilles for the settlement of any dispute or matters arising out of or concerning these Agreements or their enforceability.According to "Robert" here, the site itself is in Costa Rica:  This is a wild guess, but I assume its a mix of several jurisdictions due to tax, servers, law etc. - but still doesnt answer much. Hong Kong has quite a few Bitcoin related companies registered and Curacao is known for gambling activities .. just not sure yet how the puzzle fits but will be back  Wow, I never stumbled across those T&C The registration process consists of filling in these 4 fields, and agreeing to THESE TERMS (I know highschool kids who could do a better job as far as language)  Still, I'm having a hard time believing that anyone from Betcoin would bother to actually fill out paperwork if they thought they could get away with not filling out paper work and not paying taxes ever. They do whatever they want and think they can get away with it, what's keeping them from running the whole operation without ever informing any government anywhere? |
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Dear players,
The reason why the main tournament did not run was to the shortage of min 20 players. As for the people who won tickets to 1500mBTC tournament, they will be rewarded with the new tickets to 3000mBTC tournament. To put it more simply, these people who won tickets to 1500 mBTC tournament, their ticket will be changed to the ticket for 3000mBTC tournament. The latter tournament will take place on Saturday at 8pm site time.
Thank you for playing with us.
How if the 3000mbtc tournament is not running because the same reason (not enough players)? Will you change the ticket for another tournament again? We are confident that 3000mBTC tournament will run on Saturday and lucky winners will share the amazing price pool. Thank you. I am confident that if you continue to run satellites but don't answer the following questions there will be many pissed off players. I just checked out the lobby and things look better than last time for sure.
I think it's a mistake to run satellites to tournaments that are rebuy+add.
You're running a 1 chip rebuy satty to a 15 rebuy+addon 1500 guar.
You want to focus on attracting the players who can afford 1 chip and think 15 chips is a bit much. Players will often be disappointed when they realize the ticket they just won will be worth much less if they dont come up with 15 more chips of their own to at least take the add on.
Schedule satellites to freezeouts only so that a ticket winners bankroll doesn't wont reduce their velue in the target event.
If you run satellites, you should have a Satellite Policy on how these situations will be handled:
A player wins a ticket and registers for target event - target event is cancelled
A player wins a ticket and registers for target event then wins 1 or more identical tickets.
A player registers for event with their own funds, then wins a satellite to the same event.
A player wins a ticket but forgets to register for target event. There are no other tournaments scheduled with the same buyin.
A player wins a ticket but doesn't want to play target event.
If you ever decide to run satellites right before a tournament:
A satellite finishes after its target event has already started and late registration is still open.
A satellite finishes after its target event has already started and late registration is no longer available.
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Is there any plan to fix the fact that the tournament doesn't just pop up on its own?
You have to click "Join my Table" upon the start of the tournament
Seriously?
It probably has something to do with your browser settings. Try allowing all popups. |
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