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621  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) on: November 12, 2015, 06:51:23 PM
This sort of argument boils down to an assumption that miners are not net economically-rational. If you think that, then you must think that bitcoin can *never* work. Miners being net-econo-rational actually *IS* probably a core axiom that must be accepted for Bitcoin to be viable. So arguments that reject that idea are worthless.

That comment in itself is pretty worthless. You perpetuate the illusion that "the miners" exist. Miners are individual. If you don't believe that some can be led to act irrationally, no matter if it is substainable or not, then you're a fool, plain & simple.

Ok, you're getting pedantic today, so yes, of course, key properties of bitcoin are its fixed supply and censorship-resistance. That's what I signed up for. I didn't sign for deliberately breaking free-market properties where we can easily have them.

You fail to address the argument. Following your logic the supply should be left to the free market, who apparently knows best.

It sounds like you don't realize how the network was designed: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11625671#msg11625671

So you ultimately fail to address any of my arguments then conclude with a poor appeal to authority...

Next!
622  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) on: November 12, 2015, 05:10:11 PM
Do you guys think bigblockism is related to the increased number of mainstream statists in the community?

I think the overlap is large.

https://archive.is/UE8qf

There's a giant misinterpretation going on here. "bigblockism" is not pro-statist. If any similar generalization is true, it's that small-blockism is anti-freemarket. Lift the cap, and miners will respond to free market dynamics and set soft-caps that make sense given the market demand for blockspace; maybe that'd still be around 1mb, maybe not. But intentionally leaving the cap in place amounts to deliberate economic engineering; aka, central planning.
How would the market be free if users would not be able to run a bitcoin client by themselves?
Trusting *yet again* some third institutionalized party a la AWS?

Monetary sovereignty comes at a cost.

Your signature says it all btw, nice try.
Just because the miners decide on the blocksize it does not follow that people will not be able to run full nodes. Miners will choose what they think is best for Bitcoin, if they think it is important that more people can run full nodes, they will make the blocksize smaller or keep it at its present size. The miners are the best group of people to make this decision because they are incentivized to do what is best for Bitcoin, whatever that might mean at the time.

Melbustus is correct in saying that having the blocksize decided by the Core development team is anti-freemarket and the equivalent of economic engineering or centralized planning. Especially when compared to consensus through proof of work and or other more distributed decision making processes.

Miners are profit driven animals. It is quite foolish to assume that they always act in the network's best interest. The SPV mining act should work as a rather strong argument again this premise. Moreover this does not address the fact that Bitcoin must work even in adversarial environments where market actors may start acting irrationally.

It's rather hilarious that both of you propose that the current state of affairs is akin to "centralized planning". What you propose is the exact definition of central planning: a presumption that one group (miners) can determine the needs of every market actors (nodes) and act accordingly.

Basically you'd rather trade governance through code dictated by the network peers by central planning through the miners. This will fail.

623  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) on: November 12, 2015, 05:03:52 PM
Do you guys think bigblockism is related to the increased number of mainstream statists in the community?

I think the overlap is large.

https://archive.is/UE8qf

There's a giant misinterpretation going on here. "bigblockism" is not pro-statist. If any similar generalization is true, it's that small-blockism is anti-freemarket. Lift the cap, and miners will respond to free market dynamics and set soft-caps that make sense given the market demand for blockspace; maybe that'd still be around 1mb, maybe not. But intentionally leaving the cap in place amounts to deliberate economic engineering; aka, central planning.

How many times does it need to be said that "the miners" don't exist as one entity hence the concept of "soft-caps" is useless and quite a distraction.

Bitcoin is deliberate economic engineering.

The 21,000,000 cap is deliberate economic engineering.

Block interval time is deliberate economic engineering.

I hope you realize this argument holds little value when considering the reality of how the network operates and how it was designed.
624  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Are we stress testing again? on: November 11, 2015, 10:26:42 PM
So i lost some money yesterday because my legit transactions with enough fee did hang unconfirmed because there were too many legit transactions to get included. Great outlook on the future if the 1megabyte blocks remain.
How on earth do you manage to run into this? Blocks are reguraly underfilled, the transaction rate is ~2 tps, average blocksize is 0.5 Mb. Your transaction should've been included quite fast. I guess you simply have wallet problems, e.g. improper fees, non-standard tx or something of that kind, that prevents you txs from being included in a block.

Yep. FUD.
625  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fall due to Coinbase trying to push through XT and change leadership ? on: November 11, 2015, 08:23:39 AM

Yep, safe to say we're way outside the mean.

Negative correlation for the last two years. What gives?

The chart is showing you what you will get: Higher prices in the future.

I also expect higher prices in the future but not because of "MOAR TRANSACTIONS" but because of "MOAR HOLDERS".
626  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fall due to Coinbase trying to push through XT and change leadership ? on: November 11, 2015, 08:07:40 AM


Yep, safe to say we're way outside the mean.

Negative correlation for the last two years. What gives?
627  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fall due to Coinbase trying to push through XT and change leadership ? on: November 11, 2015, 07:55:57 AM
In one paragraph why you have to be seriously out of your mind to try and stop bigger blocks:

The key to linking things together is recognizing that the only two things that give currency value are network effect and rarity.  The network effect of Bitcoin is hugely affected by the number of transactions you can fit per block.  For example, if Bitcoin could only do 10 transactions per day, only someone that's mentally insane would argue that doesn't create a huge glass ceiling for network effect, the main place the currency derives value from.  TPS obviously does matter and keeping 1MB blocks is detrimental to price.  

Exactly.

The past 2 years have clearly shown that Bitcoin transaction levels are not correlated to its market value.

The past 5 years have clearly shown that Bitcoin transaction levels are correleated to its market value.
Thousandfold increase of both levels. @r0ach is 100 pct right.

 Roll Eyes

How pleasant the world must be living with such a simple mind.
628  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fall due to Coinbase trying to push through XT and change leadership ? on: November 11, 2015, 07:48:07 AM
In one paragraph why you have to be seriously out of your mind to try and stop bigger blocks:

The key to linking things together is recognizing that the only two things that give currency value are network effect and rarity.  The network effect of Bitcoin is hugely affected by the number of transactions you can fit per block.  For example, if Bitcoin could only do 10 transactions per day, only someone that's mentally insane would argue that doesn't create a huge glass ceiling for network effect, the main place the currency derives value from.  TPS obviously does matter and keeping 1MB blocks is detrimental to price. 

Exactly.

The past 2 years have clearly shown that Bitcoin transaction levels are not correlated to its market value.
629  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fall due to Coinbase trying to push through XT and change leadership ? on: November 11, 2015, 06:47:16 AM
You seem pretty confident that no investment is being deterred by 3 TPS. I would argue that much of what is invested into bitcoin is on the basis of "what it can be", not necessarily "what it is today". 3 TPS being permanent would certainly dissuade me from future investment.

You seem to be pretty confident that Bitcoin was built to attract investment and deliver fast ROI (aka "make money fast"!).

I believe it was not. It was built as a decentralised alternative financial and economic system and we are only at the beginning of that.

It was not built to give up decentralisation by lifting the sky on blocksize to let facebook users exchange pocket money for 'likes' or something. There's something more serious behind Bitcoin than that. That's the grand experiment. And it is successfull and nobody will stop it anymore. If you think different then just invest your money in Mastercard shares or something.

Thankfully, even the Core devs seem to be coalescing towards a modest increase in capacity to allow time for alternative scaling solutions to move from theory to reality.

Of course they are. And don't worry, scalability will adapt without handing the blockchain over to governments.

Joe



Hyperbole much?

They're going to raise the TPS capacity modestly? Good. The 1MB4EVA crowd may be ridiculous, but they exist.

Any linear increase of transaction throughput by increase of the blocksize is irrelevant to the actual job of scaling Bitcoin.

The 1MB4EVA crowd was mostly a reaction to the alarmists' original proposal of fatally hampering Bitcoin's decentralized nature by way of expedited bloating of the blockchain.

Remember that the original proposal suggested a 20MB blocksize increase.
630  Economy / Speculation / Re: big BTC players continue accumulation and barely ever sell. on: November 11, 2015, 06:41:52 AM
Yes, very rational observation. The current price action is reflective on only a tiny fraction of what is likely the same coins being traded around by speculators on exchange. The rest of the coins are slowly but surely being accumulated.

In this context I am reminded of this passage from one of Mircea Popescu's blog post :

Quote
On the Bitcoin supply side, conversely, things look quite grim. Up until recently Bitcoins were generated via mining at the rate of about three million a year. Starting with the current year mining rewards halved, which means yearly Bitcoin generation is 1.3mn tops. Out of this, a fraction between a third and a half will have to be sold to pay operational costs of the miners - so about 600`000 Bitcoins are meeting the market this year (although part of them are possibly meeting the market straight in the pockets of their owners, who bought mining gear in the first place to acquire Bitcoins, so they've paid for the rigs and electricity in fiat, are registering the tax-deductible loss thereof and keeping the Bitcoin).

Other than this ~4% of the Bitcoin monetary mass, there may be as much as maybe 10ish% that is looking for dollars for whatever reasons. Then again, that 10ish% could be as low as 1%.

Now let's remodel : what happens when a 300% increase on the supply side meets a 5% increase in the demand side ? There's pretty much literally nothing those extra dollars nobody wants can do to increase the Bitcoin supply. It's very, very inelastic, and consequently the only stability point is when equilibrium is reached. Two billion dollars divided by 600`000 Bitcoins comes to three thousand dollars and change per Bitcoin.

Will people stop throwing dollars at Bitcoin because Bitcoin prices in dollars are rising ? No, they will not. If anything the converse is more likely. Will people start throwing Bitcoin at dollars because Bitcoin prices in dollars are rising ? No, they will not. If anything, the converse is more likely.
631  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fall due to Coinbase trying to push through XT and change leadership ? on: November 11, 2015, 06:30:14 AM
In one paragraph why you have to be seriously out of your mind to try and stop bigger blocks:

The key to linking things together is recognizing that the only two things that give currency value are network effect and rarity.  The network effect of Bitcoin is hugely affected by the number of transactions you can fit per block.  For example, if Bitcoin could only do 10 transactions per day, only someone that's mentally insane would argue that doesn't create a huge glass ceiling for network effect, the main place the currency derives value from.  TPS obviously does matter and keeping 1MB blocks is detrimental to price. 

Bitcoin's network effect does not operate solely as a function of its transactional capacity.

It is impossible for Bitcoin to differentiate itself through its transaction throughput. Only its censorship resistance and decentralized nature makes it unique.

Seeing as a large majority of Bitcoin users are only interested in holding for the near future we have to assume this will be through of prospective adopters and therefore it is wrong to propose that Bitcoin's TPS put a glass ceiling on Bitcoin's network effect.


You seem pretty confident that no investment is being deterred by 3 TPS. I would argue that much of what is invested into bitcoin is on the basis of "what it can be", not necessarily "what it is today". 3 TPS being permanent would certainly dissuade me from future investment.

Thankfully, even the Core devs seem to be coalescing towards a modest increase in capacity to allow time for alternative scaling solutions to move from theory to reality.

Bitcoin can be a reserve currency for the world's next financial system without ever challenging transactional capacities of centralized services like VISA, Paypal, etc.

See my post on reddit referring to an old Hal Finney btctalk post for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3sb5nj/most_bitcoin_transactions_will_occur_between/
632  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Don't HODL!!! on: November 11, 2015, 05:52:28 AM
Tell that to Satoshi you retard.
633  Economy / Speculation / Re: Lowball Bitcoin price prediction as a money transmitter in comparison to Paypal on: November 11, 2015, 05:50:03 AM
x-post

Bitcoin's network effect does not operate solely as a function of its transactional capacity.

It is impossible for Bitcoin to differentiate itself through its transaction throughput. Only its censorship resistance and decentralized nature makes it unique.

Seeing as a large majority of Bitcoin users are only interested in holding for the near future we have to assume this will be through of prospective adopters and therefore it is wrong to propose that Bitcoin's TPS put a glass ceiling on Bitcoin's network effect.

634  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fall due to Coinbase trying to push through XT and change leadership ? on: November 11, 2015, 05:49:19 AM
In one paragraph why you have to be seriously out of your mind to try and stop bigger blocks:

The key to linking things together is recognizing that the only two things that give currency value are network effect and rarity.  The network effect of Bitcoin is hugely affected by the number of transactions you can fit per block.  For example, if Bitcoin could only do 10 transactions per day, only someone that's mentally insane would argue that doesn't create a huge glass ceiling for network effect, the main place the currency derives value from.  TPS obviously does matter and keeping 1MB blocks is detrimental to price.  

Bitcoin's network effect does not operate solely as a function of its transactional capacity.

It is impossible for Bitcoin to differentiate itself through its transaction throughput. Only its censorship resistance and decentralized nature makes it unique.

Seeing as a large majority of Bitcoin users are only interested in holding for the near future we have to assume this will be true of prospective adopters and therefore it is wrong to propose that Bitcoin's TPS put a glass ceiling on Bitcoin's network effect.
635  Economy / Speculation / Re: MMM ponzi effects? on: November 11, 2015, 04:17:28 AM
I guess we can put this theory to bed  Huh

I mean the price is crashing yet this ponzi hasn't stopped so far as I can see.
636  Economy / Speculation / Re: Maybe the most accurate Bitcoin price prediction on: November 10, 2015, 09:30:28 PM
I'm not sure about the relation you are suggesting between block size and price determination. In the end it's the market that determines the price, so you
could easily have 10x the amount of transactions that paypal has, but if that capacity is not used - it probably won't be a variable important for price estimation.
On the other hand, if one would say that nr. of transactions matches pp, then it would make a difference, because it would suggest that user base grew, interest is growing, and ofc price goes up.

The original post is mostly concerned about WHEN and HOW Bitcoin can match or pass Paypal market cap/value of around 50 billion.

Bitcoin is money, attempting to compare or make correlation with a private company's market cap based on their transaction capabilities is quite farfetched to say the least.
637  Economy / Speculation / Re: Maybe the most accurate Bitcoin price prediction on: November 10, 2015, 08:46:12 PM
Centralized payment system can process infinite amount of transactions if it pleases them.

Bitcoin is not engineeringly built to compete in terms of transaction capability.

If you have not yet figured this out you have no chance at succeeding to project Bitcoin's value, much less make an "accurate Bitcoin price prediction"
638  Economy / Speculation / Re: Maybe the most accurate Bitcoin price prediction on: November 10, 2015, 08:41:33 PM
Quote
If you're to assume sole value of the network is determined by transaction processing capability relative to it's competitors with a 2x markup for decentralization

Did you hit your head on something?

That is nonsense.

I suggest you delete this thread seeing as only a few people have so far read it.

639  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) on: November 10, 2015, 08:39:10 PM
The blockstream shills here should risk a bet. Next year this time we'll have at least a doubled blocksize cap, triggered by XT, and Mister Maxwell can't do anything against it, because of lacking economic power.

So that's what the narrative has turned into heh  Cheesy

Whatever happens to XT, it died for our freedom. May it lives in martyrdom!

640  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud) on: November 10, 2015, 07:26:51 PM



 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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