Just sain' Satoshi also generated a bunch of Bitcoins for himself.
This is getting old, the difference is Satoshi essentially informed everyone he talked to to mine Bitcoins, and the soruce code was released before the genesis block was even mined, someone took his advice, like Hal Finney, who mined several thousand very early, did Opencoin ever give anyone a chance to take their reserved portion of XRPs which they created out of thin air? Not to say that a Bitcoin network can only be "alive" as long as at least a miner is running, so Satoshi had to be that miner himself, because no one else wanted to do that, while Ripple network, by design, can work perfectly without XRPs. |
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not to say the so-called "spam" problem is something unique to the Ripple, which says much about how good the design actually is. Oh, just to quickly jump in: Bitcoin has SERIOUS issues with spam transactions and is running currently in a heavily limited mode because of that. Bitcoin would look much different (imho better + with far more features), if it somehow could be ensured that spam transactions are not mined into the block chain. One of the biggest reasons that this hasn't happened yet, is (aside from being distributed already, so hardforks need mining power) that there is no clear consensus what "spam" exactly is. Ripple solves this via a combination of Proof of Stake (or maybe Proof of Ownership) and Proof of Destruction. XRP are used (or probably intended to be used) as an intermediate currency/token/whateveryoucallit. Just like it is easier to give an USD value to several computer parts and compare this instead of calculating how many ASUS ... mainboards I have to trade for 3 Intel core-i5 ... CPUs it is intended to be used for comparisons and facilitating trade. Same goes for using BTC at the moment by the way - as most goods and services can be valued in fiat and this fiat value can be translated into a BTC value, BTC are used as an intermediate, just like USD or EUR or BTN - the main use for money after all. A Ripple system without an internal currency will need to adopt another currency out of necessity really fast, it could be Litecoins, it could be Bitcoin it can be something else. Without any internal currency, there can only be barter trade of IOUs and that leads to highly inefficient markets. As there is no real need to actually USE XRP (just as I never had to use Mexican Pesos in my whole life, still I can calculate the value of nearly anything around me in Mexican Pesos!) but it is useful to have it around, so I'm not so much concerned with the whole issues that people see around this. XXX billions XRP on your account anyways just means that you can dump the price - as long as you don't invest in them by holding and just use them to facilitate trade (meaning you do trade for example PayPalUSD --> XRP --> BTC instead of longer paths) you're not exposed to this at all. To be clear, I am also heavily against investing in XRP (I just hold the ones I got for free and axchanged a few of them to BTC to get a better feeling for the client and system) and would recommend anyone who buys them to exchange them quickly for wheatever IOU they want to have and redeem that at the time they want to. I don't know what you mean by "spam transactions"? The problem of blockchain being filled up with too many small transactions I guess? I don't see how Ripple can solve it, the ledger can still bloat, at least with its current design. I agree with a lot of what you said about XRPs, but what I find faults with is the way they release them, which is completely arbitrary and opaque, rather then the fact that they created a currency itself. Even if they were really out of other reasonable solutions, and had to settle with the "printing press" model(which I strongly doubt, at bare minimum they can be as transparent as FEDs and give people complete, provable data about the past/current/future rate and fluctuation of XRPs' flow into the network. All this ultra-secrecy can only lead people to be more and more suspicious that some foul plays are behind the door. |
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Had they really focused on working on a payment system, they would not be despised so much, instead they create a currency that makes FED pales in comparison when it comed to scamability, then advertise it as if they only keep enough to reward their self-proclaimed great contributions.
The network requires XRP to have a value in order to combat spam. The price of XRP today is 99% speculative, but it's gradually becoming more real. Over time this value will increasingly be set by a new payment processing market. Ripple can give everyone the ability to transact for free in any currency they want. OpenCoin has nothing in common with the FED. lol Why Bitcoiners don't embrace it is beyond me. The only reason I can think of is that they assume that undermining Ripple will somehow delay the day Bitcoin is inevitably replaced by something better. It's not a rational assumption. It has everything to do with fear and greed, and nothing to do with Ripple. Do not forget using VC money to buy up the tiny XRPs they gave away so they would have a bigger market cap.. to attract more VCs.
I'm sure OpenCoin will attract a lot of VCs. What's your point? Why you can't wrap your mind around the facts is beyond me, and how Ripplers attribute this to envy is even more laughable. The fact is that the only reason Bitcoin network doesn't do instant confirmation is the unfairness of distribution and security, had the miners needed not to worry about their blocks getting rejected, because all coins are generated in the genesis block anyway(like what Opencoin is doing), Bitcoin network could just have gone the WDC way by adjusting the block generation time to something like 10 or 20 seconds, and we would have near-instant confirmations without putting up with Ripple's half-assed consensus system, you really think Ripple is superior in anyway? Fairness is everything, I wil tell you why I don't embrace it, ask any proper investor outside of this community about something like XRP, they will tell you it is suicidal to invest in something which a single entity controls 10 times more than anyone else combined, and count on their good will to make money for you, needless to say there is no way for you to investigate if the currency is being manipulated or not, heck, you don't even know how much XRP is out of Opencoin. Had Opencoin really honored fairness and felt the need to combat spam, there are much better approaches to take, like a deterministic system which releases XRPs, while keeping the 300 XRPs limit in place(yeah, they get rid of it already), not to say the so-called "spam" problem is something unique to the Ripple, which says much about how good the design actually is. If you still feel confused, ask yourself, where is Ripple/XRP better than the financial/federal reserve system you are using? But nevermind, it's not the first time I see a Rippler who just can't swallow rational arguments. |
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It's impossible to have a rational discussion so early. Some of you have hitched your wagons prematurely to the "I simply don't care about Ripple" ideology imho. I guess you don't see the new utilities it's attempting to bring to the payment space as being as much of a big deal as some of us do.
I've said this before, but it's important to keep in mind, the payment space is MASSIVE! Bitcoin is a little speck. Bitcoin, Ripple, and wtvr else we're talking about in these forums that actually possesses forward momentum is the new stuff, and it all supports itself.
Had they really focused on working on a payment system(certainly not without major problems), they would not be despised so much, instead they create a currency that makes FED pales in comparison when it comed to scamability, then advertise it as if they only keep enough to reward their self-proclaimed great contributions. |
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I don't know guys. I think anarchy is like communism. It sounds great on paper, but doesn't scale well beyond a commune. Anarchy is everything you enjoy in life, and violence is the opposite. Personally I might do well in an anarchy. But make no mistake I would organize an army and take what I want. I would charge you tribute or burn your village, take slaves, etc. Join me and be with the strong! In exchange for your unwavering obedience and occasional military service I will allow you to live in peace. Gota love anarchy! What you describe is not "anarchy," but an attempt (by you) to set up a state. Yes. I think my state will dominate any unorganized place. Join me myrkul, with your warrior skillz we will rule like Gods! Think it over, and please accept this slave girl as a token of friendship. I agree with you ,the reason why there were so few real anarchical communities in human history, is that they simply can't stand on their own in the face of the organized power of the states, or even tribal federations, after all, people are greedy, and xenophobic, they will sacrifice what they already have to authorities, in exchange for the chance to plunder more. The highest form of struggle, according to Huntington, is not even the conflicts between the nations, but that between the civilizations--people unite under a certain set of ideas and customs, can form imagined communities beyond the border of nations, and even between different eras. This maybe why most of the largest religions in the world are monotheistic, rather than polytheistic, it's much easier to get people to follow one god, rather than many gods which may cause them to constantly argue about the precedence of gods and also create new gods to worship, which creates schisms. |
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Ripplers whining:" You totally misunderstood us! It's not what Ripple is all about!" Blahblahblah....
What Satoshi did--throwing in the code and the whitepaper:" Show me where it would't work the way I told you, I dare you."
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Instead of trusting FEDs, there are people who somehow figure it's a better idea to trust a private corporation which is ten times more shady and arbitrary than FED with the currency they created ....wow.  Had Bitcoin been like XRP, I would have sticked with whatever fiats I use. |
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Provided the data from the bank has the right characteristics, why couldn't an oracle be used as the escrow "agent"?
I think the data from the bank can always be faked, however for SSL connection, they will somehow be signed by the bank, and thus can be potentially used as proof of transfer. |
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Can colored coins address this fiat transfer problem in any way? Colored coins (CC) facilitate decentralized real-time exchange. This is mainly aimed at full-time traders. For casual purchases the SSL dump scheme seems better fitted. My rudimentary understanding is that it's a way of using coins to represent property. I can't see how it would help with the problem being discussed in this thread? You can use CC to represent property, like 1 USD. There must be an emitter of . The emitter accepts USD and issues CC in return. With CC, full time traders don't need to make a money wire into the exchange and risk the exchange being shut down and all their USDs frozen. Full time traders can now trade BTC for CC (on the blockchain) in a high-frequency trading fashion. Later the trader can take his CC back to the emitter and redeem the USD. Needless to say, the emitter charges a small fee for the service of issuing CC. As far as the rest of your post, I concur with everything. Now, let me process your "Another thought"... Colored coin is a great idea, but I don't think anything like an emitter is very P2P. To be strongly resistant to crackdown, the bank transfer must be carried out between buyers and sellers, rather than sellers and a service provider. |
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The result: As tips disappear, wages will (finally) have to pick up the financial slack that tipping once achieved. This is a US only thing, here in Europe you don't have to tip the server. In US there are even tickets with "write here the tip", here in Europe that would be absurd. Also half of the things listed there only apply to credit cards but does not apply to bitcoin. Commemorative or collectable coins become an increasingly confusing idea to a generation that has never actually used coins. These products vanish over time Really? We bitcoiners have a digital currency and despite that we have collectable casascius coins! Yes, the list in the article seemed a bit lightweight to me also, especially after I had just read an ad that treated the "Death of Cash" theme with great seriousness. I don't want to inadvertently troll on behalf of the advertiser but here are some of their examples: -- snip Last year, Madison, WI banned drivers from mailing in cash for any and all payments. If you’re dropping off trash at the dump in Bridgewater, MA, don’t bother bringing cash. As the sign says: “Absolutely NO cash will be accepted!!!!!” As of Feb. 1, 2012, the Maryland State Comptroller’s Office outlawed all cash payments at branch offices – statewide. Whether you’re paying taxes, traffic tickets, or zoning fines... Your cash is no longer accepted. As the Comptroller announced: “Effective February 1, 2012, the Comptroller's Office will no longer accept cash payments at branch offices.” Thanks to state bill R.S. 37:1866, you can now be arrested in Louisiana for paying for second-hand items... with cash. As the final version of the bill reads: “A secondhand dealer shall not enter into any cash transactions in payment for the purchase of junk or used or secondhand property.” Danny Guidry, owner of Pioneer Trading Post in Lafayette, told his local CBS affiliate: “We're gonna lose a lot of business. We don't want this cash transaction to be taken away from us. It's an everyday transaction.” The civic government of Discovery Bay, CA has also voted to ban cash. As the Contra Costa Times reports: “The Discovery Bay Community Services District board voted this week to ban cash transactions for all services, including water bills and park reservations.” -- end snip The ad's theme was that cash, physical cash, is almost finished (they went on to claim it will be over because of some move by the Fed in a few weeks) - and to me that seems to open a big psychological door for BTC even if all the immediate examples favor credit cards, PayPal and so forth. Agreed, however much you detest Bitcoin, what r u gonna do now that your paper money is not accepted? |
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and now reveals why bitcoin mainstreaming wont happen anytime soon.
1. starbucks does more then 7 transactions a second.. add on the transactions of walmart.. instantly with just 2 major retailers bitcoin cannot cope.
2. buying a $1 loaf of bread with a visa card would cost the customer $1 and the retailer would get 99c. with bitcoin he would only get 93c.. why?
well the transaction fee of 0.0005 just to get a fast confirm would cost 6c then add bitpay 1% fee to convert to fiat.
3. as bitcoins fiat value increases gavin andressens ignore dust feature will also add more costs onto small transactions.
so if you want to buy a drink, sandwich or coffee at a vending machine. don't look at bitcoin for your solution.
Who do you think are paying the multi-billion dollar Visa makes every year then? And if Bitcoin really becomes that valuable, do you think the miners would not just get off their lazy ass to change one or two lines of code(assuming devs won't do) to accept small-amount transactions?(Yes, it's that easy) |
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I think the blocksize limit is the ultimate hard proof that Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme-when you buy bitcoins, you actually invest on the infrastructure of the network, because a decentralized payment network and a permanent, always available tamper-proof database is useful to people, people are willing to pay miners to run it, if the upkeep is not enough to provide unlimited access to blockchain for everyone, the resource will then have to be rationed, which gives us the 7tps limit-my 2 cents on Jeff's words.
A lot of people are complaining that the Bitcoin network cannot scale to high processing capability, but you can't have it both ways, a system cannot be low-cost, highly-decentralized, and have high-availability all at the same time.
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oh Lordy. again. silverbox?  So I just got bored.... Great Panther Silver Stock price: $0.78 Market Cap:$108M ASICMiner Stock Price: BTC2.5($320) Market Cap:$128M LOL  |
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TO the community using an alt coin there is no benefit to them when a chain is premined. Simple as that.
What? You know Satoshi mined a quarter million Bitcoins, right? Bitcoin is the original premined coin. Mining!=Premining. Do your homework before you talk. Support your assertions before you post. Premining is mining. By definition. It's in the name. The idea is that you're mining before (pre-) everyone else. Premining. Satoshi was a huge chunk of the network hashrate for quite a while. That meets my definition, and I'm not sure why it doesn't meet yours. The only difference with the new coins is that the timescale is extremely compressed because an absolute shitload of power piles into the blockchain within a couple of days. When Satoshi was mining it was CPU-only. It's not that I don't believe he deserved every Bitcoin, he absolutely did. The point is mostly that premining doesn't spell doom for a coin. Wrong, Satoshi published the code and tried to get people in a variety of places to use it(what else do you expect him to do? Run an ad on the TImes Square?) before he even started mining, anyone can grab the code if he wants, which is not that different from the situation today. And your assertion he mined a quarter million before anyone else is wrong, Hal Finney for one mined several thousand, and the sourceforge registered several hundred downloads for the Bitcoin client during the whole period. This whole"I didn't get rich so someone must be mean" talk is getting old. |
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TO the community using an alt coin there is no benefit to them when a chain is premined. Simple as that.
What? You know Satoshi mined a quarter million Bitcoins, right? Bitcoin is the original premined coin. Mining!=Premining. Do your homework before you talk. |
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At first I was like, "Why is theymos automatically in my trusted list?" then I realized, "Duh, the adminstrator of the system is already implicitly trusted whenever trust is granted to anyone."
Still I think people may balk because they don't think of this.
It will not work otherwise, someone can register hundreds of sockpuppets and prop up his trust rating. Or maybe we should just ask every trust rater to submit a proof of work before they rate, the more trustworthy you already are, the less proof of work you need to do. |
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The bitcoin train sucks, it stops often, a rock on the track will derail the train and the conductor takes weeks to verify your ticket, often requiring you to show proof of residency, your passport, and often asks you how much money he has deposited in your bank account to make sure you own the account, even if you paid with cash.
Not to mention most of the people on the train have been on it for months, repeating "I'll get there someday".
Back at Jan 12th this guy created a thread for top-calling: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136169.msg1450869#msg1450869 , and guess what, out of the hundreds who have posted their guesses in January, no one had even came close to nail the top, no one, no one then even believed the price can be above $100. I am sorry if you have missed the train and the space shuttle afterwards, during the 133 times run-up from $2 to $266, but it's a fact of the world that not everyone makes money in the market.  I posted this on Jan 12th, no edits. Guess: $107.66
Sorry, missed you, but I guess you know my point. |
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I am using China Telecom's network, until now at least network traffic related to Bitcoin is OK.
Keep in mind that law in China works differently from that of West, in two ways:
1.Anything not explicitly permitted by law is technically prohibited;
2.No one will enforce the "not permitted yet not explicitly prohibited" part of the law until someone sees a chance to make money or directives are received from "relevant organs".(so yes we break laws everyday)
In this case, I guess it's China Telecom's management's own idea, not sure at which level the decision is made, but there must be some interest groups related to CT already feeling the threat of Bitcoin.
Wow. Thank you for sharing that cultural insight. I'm rather sheltered as an American, and I know I take a fair amount for granted, but wow. I'm surprised how arbitrary the government can be and the people put up with it. Think of the beauty of a system where everyone is breaking the law everyday; anyone can be arrested at any time arbitrarily and can't deny they've broken the law. In the majority of cases to arrest someone you still have to somehow justify it with a piece of text(it can be very vague, needless to say), but government agencies can refuse to cooperate with you/cut down service to you at any time because what you are doing is not explicitly allowed. |
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If a real block is really in place, gov will order Alipay and Tenpay to stop financing Bitcoin exchanges, and maybe shutdown the mining factories, it will be very visible.
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Also to increase its own importance, multiple branches of the Chinese gov routinely fight each other and try to impose completely opposite policies, it's entirely possible that one gov ministry comes out in support of BTC and another is in opposition of it.
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