In my opinion Bitcoin being deflationary does not automatically lead to it being a moral hazard. I think it's a possibility but it's not the result of the cap or it being deflationary. I don't consider it moral hazard because the early adopters are also the ones taking the biggest risks if government decides to crack down. In order to actually defend something like Bitcoin from the established players within the industry who would seek to politically and socially destroy it (by claiming all Bitcoiners are child pornographers, druggies, terrorists, etc), there must be deflation which rewards people for holding Bitcoin. This makes Bitcoin sticky, and only by making it sticky can it defeat increasing social stigma. If enough people get rich because they saved Bitcoins, those people will have stories to tell which wont involve them being a child pornographer, terrorist, drug dealer (or user). Those stories are critical for the success of any currency. Just as the US dollar relied on the story of the American dream where anyone could get rich if they just work hard, only with Bitcoin it's currently true while with the dollar at this point it's a blatant lie. I do agree with you on the idea of organic inflation but I don't think we will need that for many years. Netcoin intends to do what you're talking about by building a democratic mechanism into the design. These mechanisms can allow for stakeholders to eventually vote on the inflation rate. Please have take a look at Netcoin http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Netcoin:Community_Portaland if you have time give a review of some of the proposed features, in particular the features I proposed: Having a stakeholder based voting mechanism to determine money supply is a very interesting idea. The exact process by which this works is critical, to avoid gaming of the system. The biggest issue with alt-coins is that the network effect applies very strongly to moneys in general - i.e. the more users a currency has, the more useful it is. In the history of technologies with strong network effects there are very few (if any?) cases where a later technology that only improves in a small way compared to an earlier one takes over. I believe that only something massively disruptive could displace bitcoin. I'm not too worried about deflation - deflation in technology products is well known (PCs have been decreasing in price for years), and it doesn't stop people from buying them. The limited liquidity has made bitcoin particularly susceptible to momentum driven bubbles, and I look forward to higher volume and more derivative products to help stabilize the value. This will help adoption. Enough for this thread - getting dangerously off topic! Myspace had the network effect but it was replaced by Facebook. Myspace had superior technology. I think the threat to Bitcoin is stigma and reputation, it's associated with Wikileaks, Silk Road, and the dark net. It's reputation may allow for other coins to catch up merely because those other coins have no reputation and can be offered as "underlying technology" or pure protocols. Bitcoin can adapt by going stealth, becoming an underlying protocol instead of being marketed as "Bitcoin". Amazon coin for instance could be powered by Bitcoin without anyone knowing it. The ideal situation in my opinion is the PaySwarm approach which is to build cryptocurrencies into the web standard itself and then not set Bitcoin up to be the single dominant cryptocurrency but to let the user choose which underlying cryptocurrency to use. If you don't want to use Google as the default search engine there is Bing, Yahoo or whatever. I realize we are getting off topic, I apologize for that. |
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I looked at the three pages showing the hottest topics here and decided to give it a try.
Main News
1) We've had some of the most ludicrous launches to date lately, GAS coin claims a new record with 4 second block orphanage.
2)Neocoin is topping the charts with no source code and mis-behaving clients, after the "partners premine".
3) Gamecoin has a new unofficial Client that was released earlier but a quick check of the stats shows it is barely being mined, diff is 0.04117086 with nethash @ 747895, could this be a sign of failure? Or are miners unaware?
4) HOBO seems to be gaining pace, hashrate has been rising at a steady pace. Considering the individuals who have taken an interest in it, it seems headed for success.
Financial News
The recent introduction of a slew of new alt-coins to the cryptsy roster has seen a varied responses from the community, miners in possession of the new coins have applauded the move and have since begun dumping. The addition of the new coins has however seen the prices of most other alts plunging as traders rushed to have a slice of the new pie.
The Mt.Gox speculation has begun dying down as the excitement of an LTC posting is waning. Citing a drop in price, miner have become cautious of a major dump, this follows revelations of individuals holding as much as 500k of the second most popular crypto.
Sports news
In sports, it seems the match between Spots and Nuggets has seen some changes. With a new client released for Nuggets, spectators are watching with mild interest as the devs and supporters battle it out for dominance. It seems the race has become about being listed on Cryptsy first. Commentators have speculated on the possibilty of them being added simultaneously, thereby taking the race to the market.
Weather report
The recent winds of change have slightly cleared the air. After the Disaster of Hurricane ShitClone we are left with only scattered downpours.
It's only a matter of time before a coin releases closed source with a virus within it. Run it in a virtual machine or it's your fault. |
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Nice paper Simon. I have some critiques and commentary for you. Hoarding: a moral hazard? Bitcoins much more than any other currency in existence
derive their value from the presence of a live, dynamic infrastructure loosely constituted
by the network of verifiers participating in block creation. Because of their appreciation
potential, bitcoins will tend to be saved rather than spent. As hoarded bitcoins vanish
from circulation, transaction volume will dwindle and block creation will become less
profitable (fewer fees to collect). If circulation drops too much, it can precipitate a loss
of interest in the system, resulting in “bit rot” and verifier dearth, until such point that
the system has become too weak to heal and defend itself. Of particular concern is an
unavoidable large-scale fraud that we describe in the next section, and whose aftermath
includes sudden loss of confidence, collapse of value, and repudiation.
Towards decentralized organic inflation. An antidote to the preceding predicament
could take the form of a Bitcoin-like electronic currency with a decentralized inflationary feedback built-in, that could control the global minting rate based, e.g., on transaction volume statistics. While we leave the devising of monetary parameters for such an
“organically inflationary” currency as an open problem, we show next how deflationary
expectations negatively impact the long-term structural security of the Bitcoin system.
In my opinion Bitcoin being deflationary does not automatically lead to it being a moral hazard. I think it's a possibility but it's not the result of the cap or it being deflationary. I don't consider it moral hazard because the early adopters are also the ones taking the biggest risks if government decides to crack down. In order to actually defend something like Bitcoin from the established players within the industry who would seek to politically and socially destroy it (by claiming all Bitcoiners are child pornographers, druggies, terrorists, etc), there must be deflation which rewards people for holding Bitcoin. This makes Bitcoin sticky, and only by making it sticky can it defeat increasing social stigma. If enough people get rich because they saved Bitcoins, those people will have stories to tell which wont involve them being a child pornographer, terrorist, drug dealer (or user). Those stories are critical for the success of any currency. Just as the US dollar relied on the story of the American dream where anyone could get rich if they just work hard, only with Bitcoin it's currently true while with the dollar at this point it's a blatant lie. I do agree with you on the idea of organic inflation but I don't think we will need that for many years. Netcoin intends to do what you're talking about by building a democratic mechanism into the design. These mechanisms can allow for stakeholders to eventually vote on the inflation rate. Please have take a look at Netcoin http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Netcoin:Community_Portaland if you have time give a review of some of the proposed features, in particular the features I proposed: Netcoin Community-Oriented Decentralized Social Organization Supported by Blockchain Coercion resistant decentralized remote electronic voting mechanism for Netcoin Community-Oriented Decentralized Social Organization Netcoin thread is here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169204.0 |
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0.201 XPM / k PPS / Days +/- 5%
With difficulty 9.277 and HP8 optimization ,,,
Network currently estimated at ~65 000 000 PPS
... not going to run large scale experiment every time I want to know the profitability factor.
Do we have anything better ? And how does it scale with difficulty ?
It is no longer profitable to CPU mine Primecoin. I did the calculation. If you haven't earned any coins after 3 days shut down. |
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According to this: http://coinmarketcap.com/Novacoin has been really bullish during the last 7 days. Is it a bubble forming? I honestly think that NVC is just another scamcoin ( copy-paste from LTC + copy-paste from PPC ). Therefore it really bothers me that it's going up like that. Can anyone explain the phenomenon? Total supply 326,217 NVC |
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2 weeks would be good and give time for a massive marketing push. The real question is how will it be paid for? Will Bitcoins be accepted? Not all of us have the USD but we all have Bitcoins. It would allow more people to fund if it were not restricted exclusively to the dollar.
In an ideal world, perhaps the world we're building, funding ideas through cryptocurrency is a huge step forward. Unfortunately, we're not there yet. There are a number of things to consider at present. Firstly, as much as banks can cause people headaches, in most cases money in an account is insured against theft. It'd be great if we could have something similar for a cryptocurrency as well one day. Secondly, we want to do this as professionally and transparently as we can with the medium available to us. The fact of the matter is that most individual developers or teams of developers would enter into a contractual agreement with us for the development of Netcoin, or a component of it. That means paperwork, invoices, documented transactions, etc. That could happen with cryptocurrency as well, but in all likelihood any breach of our agreement wouldn't be as enforceable as it would be in traditional systems. I know it's not ideal, but I'm thinking of the best ways to my knowledge that we can do this as smoothly as possible. There are no guarantees whatsoever with this, which is why I want to stress that if you can't afford losing what you put toward the fund, please don't do it! It would be horrible to know that if something goes wrong someone suffered because of it. Having said that, tacotime, xwebnetwork, and myself are all putting in money of our own as well. Hopefully the advance notice will help you with this. I think one day this will all be very different and we can incubate ideas through new platforms for sure. I understand the necessity of professionalism and proper accounting. It's better to be safe than sorry. One way out of this stipulation could be to allow people to sell the tickets they purchased with USD for Bitcoin or Litecoin. Once the ticket has been purchased and development has started what if they want to sell some of their slots, will it be possible? I'd think that the Kickstarter setup associates with an email address so if they sell the password to that then they'd be able to do it, but it would be high risk for whoever purchases that. The other thing to consider is, if Netcoin is going to be released in phases then perhaps include the source code and binaries in password protected rars and then Tacotime can release the password to the binarie and source code when it's time. This same mechanism works so every has access at relatively the same time. I believe Feathercoin or Litecoin did something like that. SunnyKing launched Primecoin with over a weeks notice. So it seems that to make a launch seem fair the users must be given notice of the launch in advance and all components must be available at the scheduled date. These tickets (private keys corresponding to a stakeholder vote) will be distributed randomly upon the completion of the crowdfunding.
Here is one final thing, let's say a bunch of people fund the Kickstarter and it sells out all slots within a couple days, then is there a secure method of connecting their email addresses to the ticket mechanism? I guess I don't understand a certain aspect about how that happens. If it's some kind of key which gets sent to them, could it be sent encrypted at least via PGP? If it's not some kind of key then will they have to log in somewhere behind an SSL wall? I guess I don't understand how the private key will be distributed because that has not clearly been defined in the Wiki. I don't think it would be hard to include a recommendation that the user choose an encryption capable email and recommend services if thats how it will be done. |
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Great to see that this is progressing!
When do you roughly expect the Kickstarter to happen or how much notice will you give? I want to make sure that my prior engagements will not be in the way.
Thanks Taco!
There will definitely be plenty of notice! I think a week or two notice should be okay for everyone before we launch the crowdfund. Exciting stuff! 2 weeks would be good and give time for a massive marketing push. The real question is how will it be paid for? Will Bitcoins be accepted? Not all of us have the USD but we all have Bitcoins. It would allow more people to fund if it were not restricted exclusively to the dollar. |
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I had trouble understanding the timeline form friedcat's post on page 532:
Project Timeline
August-September: Deploy/sell all hashpower arriving in July and early August.
September-November: Deploy/sell the hashpower ordered at early July.
November-December: Experimental products of 2nd-gen chips and modular large-scale deployment solutions.
What does that timeline refer to? Hardware leasing/franchising, or the actual hardware sales?Can anyone please enlighten? Verb combination Deploy/sell confuses me in particular.
I think Franchising is the Video Arcade Machine model. Arcade machines were often rented out in a similar manner. |
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The one world currency would've been printed and controlled by the NWO itself. Bitcoin may be a worldly currency, but it certainly will never be the one and only.
Some people do want to cement Bitcoin into the spot and make it so that there is only one cryptocurrency to rule the world. I am not sure why people wouldn't want competition in this arena. |
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Wow, this coin will either never be released, or by the time it is, there will be much better. Taking way too much time.
A large portion of success is based on preparation. The design of a currency is more important than a quick release. You want a quick release so you can pump and dump it but the long term investors want a currency they can actually use and which will actually be more advanced than Bitcoin or Litecoin. If it's just a clone that you want then you can go use one. If you're interested in being an innovator then you will have to work on building an innovative solution. It's not easy and innovation doesn't happen overnight, but if you look at the Whitepaper and the ideas on the Wiki and don't like what you see there are plenty of alt coins available. |
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Absolutely. The sooner you can do this the better. |
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Where on the Wiki would I put my ideas and which ideas?
The PayPal-Like organization seems like it could be based on the idea I mentioned about a mining/investor syndicate but I would never call it PayPal like. I'll contribute but I would need more information on what they are going to adopt.
I suppose any idea I had I could put it under Hypothetical Features.
As long as you put it in a page, we can always move it around as you refine your ideas. Adoption of ideas that change the details within tacotime's specifications at this point is problematic because we want to try and move development forward as soon as he finishes the paper. Anything is worth putting up, and of course, if it's something that can be done without changing the underlying features of the coin that can be organised independently of the coin itself. Throw it up on the wiki and we can have a look! Okay I'll put my idea in the place of Paypal-like Profit-Oriented Decentralized Organization Supported by BlockchainI cannot say for certain that title is based on my idea but I'm assuming it is because I'm the person who proposed something like it. If it is someone elses idea then I apologize in advance. |
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Yup, if you have any ideas, please document it in the wiki.
Lucky, you had some great ideas, and I would love to see your thoughts shared there.
I'll write some of my proposals as well.
Where on the Wiki would I put my ideas and which ideas? The PayPal-Like organization seems like it could be based on the idea I mentioned about a mining/investor syndicate but I would never call it PayPal like. I'll contribute but I would need more information on what they are going to adopt. I suppose any idea I had I could put it under Hypothetical Features. |
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RandyBalls: good post, the whitepaper was not enough explicit in addressing the protocol and the nature of the blockcahins produced with. And yes I know some math (actually I have a Ph.d with my dissertation being done in Number Theory). I am not trolling dude, just trying to make the picture clear here. Remember: primes could behave very irregular and wild, causing one to keep an open eye on their dependents  Magic8Ball: I am neither Bitcoin nor Litecoin supporter, each have their flaws, specially Bitcoin has the above mentioned one (51% attack, slow transaction, unfair distribution-adoption pattern). I am looking for a new coin to solve these problems. That's why I am asking and questioning the newcomers.. hope your Primecoins does these things well, time will show. I suggest you have a look at Netcoin. If you're a math expert it's in the process of peer review so have a look http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169204.0 |
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I honestly thought the buy XPM at 0.002 to 0.005 btc was a no brainer.
If NVC can keep it's retarded value at 0.042btc per NVC, XPM can do much better.
Not sure about that, the interest rates for stake in NoVaCoin are the best since PirateAt40, though doubtless once the oligarchs have multipled their stakes that way it will be going down again so the unwashed masses won't be able to catch up. Centrally planned centrally controlled money / interest-rates at their best! Fans of the Fed should love it! Provided they are in the Old Boy's Club, of course. -MarkM- Merchant acceptance of NVC is non-existent pretty much as far as I am aware so its price is not justified at such a high level in my view. My comments above were made purely based on trading and how these new cryptos usually revalue themselves. It was a no-brainer with XPM it seems. You can't ignore the shady release of NVC either...it still smells pretty bad. Well, I sold half of my XMP and I'm waiting until it gets to .05 to sell the rest. I predict by the end of the month but you have this thread to look back at to see how accurate my predictions are. Anything could go wrong and derail my prediction, but we shall see. |
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It will be the first digital currency to have integrated decentralised exchange right inside the client. Dan (the developer) is currently working on first beta client to handle basic transactions, integrated exchange is scheduled to be released soon on second phase if I'm correct.
I was pretty enthusiastic before I realized its being released as closed source. Game over. No need for a Ripplescam-2. Wtf? closed source? See, I was going to support the coin but if it's closed source I have second thoughts. |
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I don't really understand. with the xpm difficulty and reward like it is, it doesn't seem like it will be worth mining soon.
If all you care about is profit, then yeah. Well, that is why the vast majority of people are mining. I keep forgetting how rare altruistic ideals are. unprofitable things simply can not sustain themselves. its not about being a good person. Except for everything that's free, non-profit organisations, charities, etc. Non-profit organization is a legal term. it just means that the organization is not a business. but it still has to generate profit, as in, NET income, in order to sustain itself. Generally in the form of donations or sponsorships. Charities are the same. This is a derailment, but what about volunteers? What about slaves? |
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The time to buy is now.
No, it is not. Price is already seriously pumped up. Buying now is serious risk because bubble can explode at any moment. For as long as one makes serious profit by mining XPM the price is seriously pumped up. Equilibrium is reached when mined coins cover mining costs. The reward per block is cut the higher the difficultly. So cheaper hashes, means higher difficulty and less coins produced.
True that, but Primecoin difficulty is not calculated as with other cryptocoins. To go up by 1, it takes massive hashpower to be added for long time. Even if difficulty goes up by 1, it is not like coin generation halves. Miners get a little less coins. It's almost impossible for most people to mine now with ordinary CPU's. It's being mined by Ciphermine and other huge data centers now so as far as miners go in order for it to be profitable it has to be at 0.01 and up at this point. It was crazy to see people selling it for 0.0050 and under. |
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There should be "clone" section of the forum.
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I am placing my sell orders at 0.04999999 then There is no clear correlation between diff+block reward and price. I am very interested to know whats the reason for the price increase. Whether its due to people genuinely interested in XPM or people just jumping on the train to earn a quick buck. How XPM price behaves if BTC crashes would be also interesting to sell. It all depends on demand. I made this same prediction with PPC and it happened as scheduled. I also predicted BTC 0.01 for XPM and it happened on schedule. So now I'm predicting 0.05 by August provided the demand is there the price is guaranteed by scarcity of supply. |
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