There's no point to going towards 14nm when 20nm hasn't even been optimized. 28nm offerings are still sometimes more efficient than their 20nm brethren. Spending money on improving the current design before stepping down to an expensive process should seem to be the better route.
What 20nm brethren? There's only KnC's half-arsed rushed attempt so far. Also, making ASICs doesn't work the way you are describing it. You don't just take a highly optimised 28nm design and run it through the 20nm fab and end up with a highly optimised 20nm ASIC. The design usually has to be reworked because the actual fab process has changed and once working, it can then be optimised for that specific process. Well I meant what you said - may not have come out right. basically they're trying to take a leap too far ahead if they rush to 14nm. Since it would be prohibitively expensive to do so they should just work on optimizing the 20 & 28nm stuff that they have right now. TSMC 20nm is fully booked for at least the rest of the year and probably a good portion of next year too. You've basically got Nvidia, AMD and ARM manufacturers fighting for capacity for their next gen products. The bitcoin ASIC manufacturers would be far better off focusing on 28nm |
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There's no point to going towards 14nm when 20nm hasn't even been optimized. 28nm offerings are still sometimes more efficient than their 20nm brethren. Spending money on improving the current design before stepping down to an expensive process should seem to be the better route.
What 20nm brethren? There's only KnC's half-arsed rushed attempt so far. Also, making ASICs doesn't work the way you are describing it. You don't just take a highly optimised 28nm design and run it through the 20nm fab and end up with a highly optimised 20nm ASIC. The design usually has to be reworked because the actual fab process has changed and once working, it can then be optimised for that specific process. |
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Anyway, the new final price of 7.9 BTC, which seems to have been the original price target, still reflects a generous 24% discount; and I think that to call it "deceitful" or accusing of false advertising for an honest mistake and for you losing the opportunity to exploit a semantic loophole for an extra 1.75% discount is quite a stretch, don't you think?
I wasn't even trying to buy a miner and it doesn't matter if it was an honest mistake, until it's corrected it's still false advertising and reflects poorly on AM. |
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Unless there's some serious reason that 20 GB of RAM is essential, then it's way overkill for a home user. Whatever gave you the impression that you'd need so much RAM?
Are you still having problems or was it just the one time?
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Has anyone shipped 10 of these into the UK yet?
I'm wanting to know how much the import duty is going to be on top roughly?
I was running a UK group buy but there wasn't enough interest. The import duty should be 0. You'll still need to pay an extra 20% for VAT though. |
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I will ship it out for you tomorrow if you want it!
okay I will pm. and pm has been sent Alright done deal this is sold now...hope she has all good blades for you. well we will deal with blade quality once I get them (fingers crossed). I most likely will test them one by one. I am hoping to build a 1.6th unit. .79 is hard to turn down. Why are you paying 0.79 BTC for a malfunctioning Tube when you can get a new one for the same price? Canary will likely lower his prices any time now. Just keep an eye on the group buy thread. |
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omg, you are naive, aren't you?
Nothing is free in this world, especially in the business world.
Do you really think that any "free coupons" in any convenience store is actually "free"? The costs are always included in the final price.
Make your own calcualtions, go to ebay or amazon and check all the "free shippings" offerings of any product. You might find either $10+free shipping or $7 +$2.99 shipping... most likely all of the listings will have almost the exact same total price.
This is normal business practice. It is logical that they will want to charge some time for the time consuming process of assembling the units, really could you blame them?
They probably just forgot to spread it out through the different parts.
This is a irrelevant point to nitpick, the main point is that with the price correction it is now the cheapest offering in the market.
Lets put things in perspective, you are complaining about 0.183 when the actual discount is -2.5 BTC.
Like you suggest, I made my own calculations and found FC's to be wrong so I informed him of the error. How on earth does that make me naive? False advertising is not normal business practice at all and until the mistake in that post is rectified that's what it is. As a shareholder, mistakes are not something I like seeing AM make, no matter how small they are. Do you really want people calling FC a liar and a thief or a simpleton who can't do basic maths? We've had enough problems of late, we don't need crap like that adding to them. Either fix the price or add an assembly fee. Problem solved. As it stands though, it's just false advertising and that's something we probably all despise. PS: Will you give me 0.183 BTC? After all it's only 0.183 BTC so you may as well do so.  |
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The last 2 reasons I can't say are true anymore. I think most miners agree they cannot make ROI with current hardware. And nobody can really solo mine at home - if they could I would see a thread "I found a block with my S3 or Dragon"
The thing with mining is that you can't determine the change in difficulty each round and therefore you can't determine if you'll break-even. You may plug in a 30% increase per month into a calculator and get a result saying that you'll never break-even. It could be that the hash rate increases by only 10% per month and you make a nice profit. Or it could be 50% per month and you make an even bigger loss. So, it's basically gambling on the rate of change of the hash rate. But cloud mining is does not support decentralization. It forces hashes into massive farms that get digitally sold out but the farm owner could always lend themselves to a 51% attack. Cloud mining is only good for miner employment. That's my view - tell me if you agree.
My view of cloud hashing is that you may as well just play the BDD game on Havelock. |
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Very interesting article. However, it may be possible for companies to get Intel to make the chips. I expect that would be very costly though. Probably currently way out to the reach of smaller companies. It is possible for external companies to use Intel's fabs. They're making the Stratix10 14nm FPGAs for Altera and 14nm SoCs for Panasonic to name 2 customers. |
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Looks like the S3 is a better deal as its price is dropping.
The Tubes have also just been discounted for round 2 sales. The price is now 7.9 BTC for a set of 10 Tubes (minimum direct order quantity), so that's 0.79 BTC per Tube. That works out to 380.72 USD at 482 USD/BTC (bitstamp rate at time of writing). |
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I'm starting to lose some trust in Friedcat, not because of the lack of shareholder info though. I noticed a mistake in the Round 2 pricing and he basically just brushed it off as there not being any mistake at all. Round 2 Sales
Full 10-devices set including:
40 Hashing Units
40 Thermal Pads (optional, on demand)
3 Ethernet Controllers (1 for redundancy. One controller can in principle drive as many as 8 full devices)
10 Cooling Kits
10 Fans
Free Assembling
7.9 BTC/set
Hashing Unit: 0.160 BTC/piece for <400 pieces
MOQ at 40 pieces. (Each unit hashes at 200-215GH/s in typical clock)
Thermal Pad: 0.007 BTC/piece. MOQ at 40 pieces.
Ethernet Controller: 0.069 BTC/piece. MOQ at 2 pieces.
Cooling Kit: 0.069 BTC/set. MOQ at 10 sets.
Fan: 0.014 BTC/piece. MOQ at 10 pieces.
If you do the maths, you'll see that the total actually comes to 7.717 BTC not 7.9 BTC. I pointed this out to FC who said that the 7.9 BTC price includes assembly. The post clearly states "Free assembling" and FC has made numerous posts about preferring to ship unassembled. It just makes no sense whatsoever. I've also pointed that out to him but haven't heard back from him yet and the post hasn't been corrected. I'm surprised no potential buyers have pointed this out in the sales thread yet. |
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I would also avoid all mining and cloud mining - it does nothing other than transfer money from your bank account to the company - there's no option for profit really when you do the numbers.
If you think mining is just there to transfer money to the miner makers then you have a serious misunderstanding of how bitcoin works. Mining is absolutely essential to bitcoin. Without it, there would be no transactions at all. You don't need to mine with the purpose of making a profit, you can do it as a way to convert fiat into bitcoin without the hassles of dealing with banks and exchanges with regards to bitcoin. Some people might even mine for ideological reasons. Sure, making a profit is nice but it's not a necessity. If you're in it to make a profit, you're best off going with in stock miners instead of pre-orders as it makes difficulty estimations far easier and more accurate. |
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The only way anyone except Intel is making 14nm bitcoin ASICs is if they pay a shit load of money to Intel.
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You seem really upset. I agree with you on many levels, but am a little concerned for your health and well being. Why spend so much time trying to sound the alarm in almost every security thread going? You can't prevent people from making poor decisions with their coins. Wiping your ass is a necessity for life but your investment in time here seems like a poor one based more in some sort of personality dysfunction of enjoying talking down to others and insulting them for thier poor decisions. As if the pain of loss already wasn't enough to jar them out of their slumber.
If you are honestly doing this to help newbs then that is commendable but I am left wondering. AM is the last company to be critical of in this space as they have been nothing but the best investment with the most ethical and well thought out approach in the entire community so far. Yes, the share price came down very heavily from it's peak, but that peak was achieved for good reasons (and community wide over-exuberance). Instead of chiming in to every thread with the shrill voice of a tsunami warning, why not create a business model with your obviously sharp mind that will perform well in this environment? Who knows, I might invest myself.
I find it hilarious that he mocks people for investing in bitcoin securities because the share price has dropped. By the very own logic he's using, he's every bit as much of a failure as those he mocks because the USD/BTC price is less than half of its all time high. He's just trolling. |
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Whoever ran the sig campaign is kind of an idiot....
Started skipping over higher ranked forum members because those spots were "full" instead of letting those people in and having less spots for lower members. Choosing a full member over a Hero member... when you obviously value hero members more (they are paid more) is idiotic. I tried to explain how it was stupid several times, but the language barrier prevented that.
Still have it in my sig though because, well I am a share holder... but sucks I should have gotten something for it and was passed up.
Yeah, I saw your comment and the response and was simply bewildered. Friedcat seriously needs to find someone who can understand, read and write English properly. |
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It would be idiotic to be telegraphing the company's next moves to the competition.
I don't think it would be idiotic, just a waste of time as they would be stating the obvious. What are AM going to do next? Keep producing miners to sell or self-mine with. Produce more gen 3 chips if profitable. Buy the gen 4 mask. It's hardly rocket science now is it. I don't understand why people pretend that this info is super valuable and under no circumstances can be allowed to fall into competitors hands. What exactly are competitors going to do apart from the exact same thing they were going to do anyway? Build and sell/use miners. I agree with you about the rest though. |
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Sign me up.
Bitcoin address: 198EpLMpTowuXAa5GLESa9GNe917GUso8j
Starting posts: 1281
Forum Rank at time of entry: Hero member
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The problem with the next generation of chips is the rapidly declining benefit to mining. They will come on line in production quantities and will see the next halving during the projected useful life.
If the supply of new bitcoins is halved shouldn't the price increase to reflect that? Agreed, this model of selling hardware to consumers cannot continue for long. You're lucky if you can obtain a ROI within a few months, as difficulty skyrockets, power requirements for the miners go up (not down), and the price of electricity always haunting you, there's little room for profits now. The hardware manufacturers act like they do us a favor when they pre-mine on hardware that we paid for, ship late, and then act put out when we start asking questions. Frustrating to be a miner these days...
That's why you shouldn't pre-order. |
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It's always a possibility. Intel have 14nm up and running and are open to clients using their fabs so I guess it's just a matter of money really. Most ASIC manufacturers will be on 28nm by 2015. KnC are already on 20nm and I expect most to transition to 20nm in 2015 but the volume will be low though due to the competition for chip production. Basically, the bitcoin manufacturers will be fighting for the scraps. Look at ASICMiner for example. The chips they've just brought out are 40nm and they'll be transitioning to 28nm around the end of the year. It stands to reason that they'll transition to 20nm sometime in 2015. A lot of companies already have 28nm miners on the market, so it also stands to reason that they'll transition to 20nm too. Like I said though, there's going to be a lot of competition for chip production. Hopefully bitcoin manufacturers can be squeezed in. |
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If any BTC ASIC manufacturers will be able to get in early on 16nm it'll only be for low volume orders. They'll be competing with AMD, Nvidia and all the ARM manufacturers.
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