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I am already in the 'make mobile Bitcoin easy' business.
Count me in!
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The Bitcoin container should contain not only the private key but also the funding transaction output. This allows the receiving client to create a transaction that sends to its own wallet without scanning the entire block chain. Scanning the block chain is a long and painful task and is not going to be less painful going forward.
The problem is that can be faked and won't be discovered until the transaction is rejected by other nodes. Either you scan the block chain locally or you send a potentially bogus transaction into the network and wait for a rejection from the first node who validates it against the block chain. Either way the work is being done. There is a big difference. Because you know the funding transaction output you don't have to scan all transactions that ever occurred to see which ones match the new key. This is like telling you where in the hay stack to look. I wouldn't imagine it saves that much time. A fraction of a second maybe? In either case you need complete copy of block chain w/ indexes built. When did you last run bitcoind with -rescan? Why would you do that? I mean honestly? To accomplish what? Do you think it is impossible to sweep coins from a private key without a rescan? If you want to sweep a private key with the satoshi client today you would use pywallet and -rescan. To sweep a private key you need to determine which transaction outputs are sending to the address of the corresponding public key. This is not a cheap operation. You either have to have a complete index of addresses to transaction outputs (thats a big one) or scan each and every transaction in the block chain (heavy workload). I don't think the Satoshi client has such an index, as it has no use for it with the feature set it currently has, and I don't think that any client out there has it. We need a solution that is viable for many use cases. Adding the funding transaction output is really cheap. It is just a few more bytes. |
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The Bitcoin container should contain not only the private key but also the funding transaction output. This allows the receiving client to create a transaction that sends to its own wallet without scanning the entire block chain. Scanning the block chain is a long and painful task and is not going to be less painful going forward.
The problem is that can be faked and won't be discovered until the transaction is rejected by other nodes. Either you scan the block chain locally or you send a potentially bogus transaction into the network and wait for a rejection from the first node who validates it against the block chain. Either way the work is being done. There is a big difference. Because you know the funding transaction output you don't have to scan all transactions that ever occurred to see which ones match the new key. This is like telling you where in the hay stack to look. I wouldn't imagine it saves that much time. A fraction of a second maybe? In either case you need complete copy of block chain w/ indexes built. When did you last run bitcoind with -rescan? |
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The Bitcoin container should contain not only the private key but also the funding transaction output. This allows the receiving client to create a transaction that sends to its own wallet without scanning the entire block chain. Scanning the block chain is a long and painful task and is not going to be less painful going forward.
The problem is that can be faked and won't be discovered until the transaction is rejected by other nodes. Either you scan the block chain locally or you send a potentially bogus transaction into the network and wait for a rejection from the first node who validates it against the block chain. Either way the work is being done. There is a big difference. Because you know the funding transaction output you don't have to scan all transactions that ever occurred to see which ones match the new key. This is like telling you where in the hay stack to look. |
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Jan, it would be awesome to have the BitcoinSpinner as a native iPhone app. Apple has now opened the door to bitcoin wallets with Bitpak, but that app sucks. I can tell you that from what I see here in the US, everyone (and i mean everyone) has an iPhone. Androids are rare amongst the non-hacker crowd. You are right and I totally agree. Apple accepting Bitcoin clients apps is really big news. However, I have no experience with iPhone apps. My domain is more Java'ish and crypto stuff. My hope is that someone in our community with iPhone dev experience takes up the challenge of porting BitcoinSpinner to iPhone. I am willing to help in any way I can. |
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The Bitcoin container should contain not only the private key but also the funding transaction output. This allows the receiving client to create a transaction that sends to its own wallet without scanning the entire block chain. Scanning the block chain is a long and painful task and is not going to be less painful going forward.
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i use Spinner on an Android. can i be confident you will push updates to me as they come out?
Yes. Whenever there is an update it will be available on the Android Market, so you just have to update the app on your device. I'll also post on this topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53353.0 |
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This is really bad if I for some reason choose to discontinue the BCCAPI server… Maybe a dumb question, but will it be possible to switch servers from within the bitcoin spinner app? Or even better, specify a set of independent servers, which all are just a synced copy of the same data, and it doesn't matter if one goes down? I don't know all the details, maybe that's not possible. Right now there are two servers running at Rackspace, one for the Bitcoin production network and one for the test network. Servers cost money, but if BitcoinSpinner catches on big time I will put up loadbalanced/redundant servers. Right now there are about 250 clients installed out there, and rarely more than a handful running. At the current usage the servers have absolutely no problem keeping up. |
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I'm looking for a bitcoin client that just has a wallet feature with send/recieve feature for the Nokia N900 phone as I wish to be able to continue doing business with BTC while the laptop will be serviced later today.
Can you run Java apps on the N900? In that case I encourage a N900 dev to make a light-weight client using BCCAPI. If you are familiar with making a UI for the N900 it will be a swift task. |
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I will say that during our meetup last night in Orlando, BitcoinSpinner was the best mobile wallet.
A new person hot girl showed up at the meeting (NOT a techie by any means), and within 1 minute she had the app on her phone, and I sent her $20 worth of bitcoins in exchange for $20 cash.
The incoming deposit showed instantly on her phone as pending, and was credited in about 5 minutes.
She was able to pay her check at Whiskey Dicks using the app, and the speed at which she was able to scan and send was good.
More importantly, the speed on the back-end of BitcoinSpinner was most impressive. Once the send was confirmed in the UI, the coins were actually sent on the bitcoin network and received by Bit-Pay in about 1 second. This compares to a typical 3-5 second process time to do a withdrawal from the MtGox Mobile Wallet.
Keep up the good work, and whatever you do to the UI, don't delay the back end processing. You have the best wallet on the market for that.
This gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. During Christmas I have been working on improving BitcoinSpinner (Yes, I have joined the BitcoinSpinner dev team). In the upcoming release we will improve on the reliance on network connectivity. Right now you cannot start BitcoinSpine without internet connectivity or the server back-end being up. This is really bad if I for some reason choose to discontinue the BCCAPI server, and you haven't done a backup of the private key. The next release will have a slick & swift asynchronous back-end, which allows you to see your balance and/or backup/restore/export your private key without a connection to the server. In my mind this is the final excuse for not using BitcoinSpinner as your day to day wallet. Cheers & Merry Christmas Jan |
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Very nice work, the blockchain is a bit complex to handle, and this project allows for a lot simpler clients, however I have found a few show stoppers.
1) You can only ever use the determistic addresses, there is no way to add a private key, from a coin or otherwise ?
The BCCAPi is split into the bare API defined in BitcoinClientAPI.java, which is implemented here and a bunch of optional helper classes on top. If you want to add any public key you can either use the API directly, or you can implement your own ECKeyManager which does not use deterministic keys (This is probably what I would do). However, there is a catch... read below 2) Is there any plans to make a API call that will be able to list the balance and transactions of a public address, that you do not have in the wallet, and dont have the private key for ?
If 2) is added, this could be used as a backend for webshops to check their balance and verify payments, without having to keep the block chain them selves.
I Agree. But... The server side assumes that the public keys added are new in the sense that no coins have been sent to them yet. This allows the server to only scan for new transactions. Otherwise the server would have to either rescan the entire block chain as you can do with the Satoshi client (expensive long running operation) or manage a database that is optimized for determining the public key -> Transaction relation in real-time, which would require a much more powerful server, more memory, IOps etc. (Maybe asked before) Do you log which IP accesses which accounts ?
One of the cool things about bitcoin, as I see it, is that by downloading the blockchain, noone knows which address you are interested in, and therefore your payment gateway can reside somewhere else than the sensitive equipment.
Agreed. Using the BCCAPI you reveal your (IP address, public key) relation to the server. The goal with the BCCAPi is to make really light weight clients, and I don't see a solution where you can have as light weight a client, without revealing the relation of your public keys. You can however hide your IP address using proxies or something like Tor. To answer your IP address question: I do not log any IP addresses. The worst thing I can do is reveal public-key/IP relations and lie about your balance. If I ever did that people would quickly move their funds elsewhere. I can never run away with your coins. For a small change wallet like BitcoinSpinner I think this is a perfect. |
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I was recently playing around with a kindle fire, I noticed that there's pretty much nothing to do withe bitcoin in its app store.
Anyone know of a particular treason for this? Wouldn't it benefit 'the community' to have something in there?
You're right! There isn't. How good are you at programming? Personally, I suck, but if you know programming, perhaps this would be a great project for you to work on. ~Bruno~ well, I do know a little Java. It would probably be a relatively big project for me. Any ideas on what a good app would be. All things considered it would need to be simple to begin with since I have never made an "android" app before BitcoinSpinner is an android app, its open source, and reskinning it to kindle should be straightforward. |
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Bitcoin will be ready for mainstream adoption when....
1) There are trusted wallet service websites.
IMHO the exchanges are the best candidates for this. They are basically already doing this with their websites. They have their exchange business to lose, so no incentive to just run away with the customer's bitcoins. Bitcoin.com as a wallet service would be good, since it's easy to remember. The websites must be easy to use of course.
2) There are blockchain services.
IMHO the Bitcoin program will not be useful for mainstream adoption simply because the blockchain is becoming too large and will become even larger and more unwieldy once Bitcoin goes mainstream. I myself don't even let the program run all the time but simply start when I need it.
The solution is to have trusted and secure blockchain services to which clients connect to. Something like bitcoinj or Electrum. The system should be secure even on a compromised computer (using split keys, separate trusted device to confirm transactions).
This will be the signal that Bitcoin will go big.
I guess that BitcoinSpinner is an example that covers both of those without having to trust the provider not to run away with your funds. However, IMO this is not enough for mainstream adoption. The biggest remaining problem is ease of converting fiat into BTC and vice versa and actually being able to buy stuff you would want to have. I have been thinking about how we can solve this for some time (yes, I know I am probably not the first one to propose this, but here it comes): In many ways you can regard a person running around with both his physical fiat wallet and his digital portable wallet as a micro exchange site. Maybe we can solve the conversion problem by combining GPS devices in mobile phones and the desire to buy/sell BTC. Basically you take your Next-Gen BitcoinSpinner app and advertise that you want to sell BTC. Anyone within a certain radius running a compatible portable app can see where you are, how to contact you, and what your price is. You meet up and do business. |
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w00t. Thank you kindly. Please send them straight to my seals with clubs cash in address lol: 1H2wbSo89dtJ3577bViVeUoT3Ee5EonJL5 However, I must admit that I am surprised that there are no more sites that accept Bitcoin (in the 1-2 BTC range) for online/digital purchases. We need more of those. There is not many things you can buy with $3-6. An app store comes to mind, but not much else. 1 BTC in transit |
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So, who won the bounty?
Guess it is time to announce a winner. The goal was something that you can buy for 1 or 2 BTC in total, including shipping costs if any, from anywhere in the world. Obviously this puts a big limitation of physical stuff, and maybe I was not clear about that in the OP. This basically reduces the list to two proposals: p4man suggested poker chips at https://sealswithclubs.org/It works immediately and the only downside is that you have to register (you don't have to supply an email address though), and you have to manually convert the Bitcoin address to a QR code (please go fix that) Tril suggested btc2diablo at: http://www.btc2diablo.com/You have to submit a form and wait for them to send you an in-person email. To me this is a no-go, as I want to show how easy and swift Bitcoin purchases are. The winner is.... p4man, *the crowd cheers* Please send me your Bitcoin address. However, I must admit that I am surprised that there are no more sites that accept Bitcoin (in the 1-2 BTC range) for online/digital purchases. We need more of those. |
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Actually getting the private key (non-encrypted) so you're not stuck with BitcoinSpinner would be useful... Is there some existing way to do this that I'm missing?
I added functionality for this in the bccapi today. I think that the BitcoinSpinner dev will add it to the app really soon. |
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I am an avid iOS Developer. I know the desktop client is open source, but I would like to see about the source code of this app and see what I can make of it. If apple decides to reject it from the app store, I'll just deploy it to my device and make the source available on GitHub.
Great! I am looking forward to see where this goes. Good luck. |
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Great! Thanks. Even faster than I hoped.
Meanwhile I have tested the new version. Everything works perfectly, except that the server connection could sometimes be just a tad faster. But it is still many times faster than updating the block chain would be.
Of course, there are always wishes for more functionality, like a transaction history and an address book, but the decisive point is that the bitcoin community now for the first time has a fully reliable and secure wallet on smartphones. This is great and a milestone for bitcoin. (Should raise the bitcoin exchange rate by 10%. :-)
Your wish has come true. Well, not the 10% increase, but the transaction log: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=52674.msg644862#msg644862 |
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It is on top now, but just barely. Score is 29-29
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Since we're back at using centralized solutions, we might aswell drop bitcoin and go back to classical banking.
How does something like this represent the idea that bitcoin stands for?
I understand the point of the blockchain not being on the phone, for storage and bandwith reasons.
The arguments i hear most are outdated i think.
-Most new smartphones have at least 16GB internal storage.
-You don't download the entire blockchain over the mobile network, use wifi for that and only mobile for transactions and updates.
And yea, i know your phone may have only 512mb of storage, but that doesn't matter for now since the masses of people ain't gonna use bitcoin for at least another 5 years, IF it ever gets off the ground in the first place.
By then, smartphones will have 1TB storage and at least a 10mbit mobile connection, so yea, we can keep it decentralized!
Take a good look at the scalability section of the Bitcoin wiki, and lets assume that 5 years from now Bitcoin is broadly adopted. Blocks will be measured in the gigabytes. Let's see how your mobile thingy will cope with that. [edit]
Ok, this is what i see is a potential problem.
This bitcoinspinner company wants to make money.. but oops, the app is free. (ofcourse it, is, and always will be, you'll be paying with personal information from your phone)
So, they invent the system all over again, they will start to lend out non-existing bitcoins to users, at a nice rate.
Where do those bitcoins come from? Well, from the other users that have plenty balance, unless everybody wants to spend all the money they have at once, they will be doing fine, just like the banks!
The 'you own the keys' argument doesn't really hold up imo, after all, you 'own' your creditcard too, still the company manages it and in the end has ultimate control over it.
For some reason it seems that you think that every company is evil. There is nothing I can do about that I guess. But there is at least one thing that you have misunderstood. Because the private keys never leave the app there is no way that the server can spend your coins or give some of your coins to other users. The 'you own your credit card' analogy you propose is ridiculous. If you don't trust the app that you download on the Android Market you can download the sources, inspect the code, even make your own fork, and roll your own. Another thing... The only privileges that BitcoinSpinner requires are NetworkConnectivity and View Network State (you are notified about thins when you install the app). This means that it cannot loot your contacts or other personal information. At the end BitcoinSpinner is not for everyone, and it is good that there are other options out there. BitcoinSpinner, like the Satoshi client itself, is a piece of beta software. Let's learn and improve... |
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