You are going a it off-topic, but are still wrong.

Even being involved in pyramid schemes can be valuable, althought in criminal way. In that case valuable is position, in which You have joined and which allows You to scam those other people, who lose money. Those positions have very high value for criminals, who are masterminds and early joiners into scheme.

Same goes for BTC scheme. What is most valuable in this scheme, is position of early miners, when "mining" could have called accordingly only because the mechanism of process was similar. Thore were essentially free "game coins", which also were valued accordingly 0,01 USD etc.

I don’t believe you responded to any of those points. But here is what I will tell you. The truth is multi layered and there are a lot of facts in life. You speak in half truths.

The truth is water is only a valuable utility to people that want to live. Some people would rather die then to do something they don’t want to do to get water. To these people water is valueless. Zero. Zilch.

So now you have agreed that value is subjective but only to things that have value in the first place..

Bitcoin can be traded between people. This fact alone gives it value.

Physical bitcoins have intrinsic value. How can something with intrinsic value be worth zero?

Another series of bullshit.

1) water provides  degree of utility to people in certain circumstances and therefore definitely varies in value, depending on context. A dying man´s body absorbs water, giving it a value as high as life. I, on the other hand, drink at the moment water out of boredom and pee out most of it. This concrete portion of water has day and night difference of value for me and dying man.

2) Bitcoin, byte or not, has some value. Most of people here would give me water in return of BTC. So BTC is subjectively valuable for them, if I really need water, its valuable for me too. If no person on earth would trade me water in return of BTC, it would have zero value for me, therefore being valueless.

3) Now You are retreating from Your own arguments. If subjectivity can change degree of value, then it can also make valueless things valuable and vice versa. Valueless thing is a valuable thing with value degree of zero for that subject.

Value is based on belief it is not objective. Belief and value are both subjective.

What you are telling me and everyone here is the only reason anyone buys a painting or the only emotion a painting gives is pleasure.. You really think anyone is buying that garbage? The degree to which something is pleasurable is also different among people. Two people may look at the same painting and feel differently about it. It is not only the paint and canvas that can give objective value to a painting it is the emotion behind it. Sometimes that emotion is pleasure but not all the time. Sometimes that emotion is a wide range of other emotions. One person may see a painting and get pleasure from it and another may see the same painting and not get pleasure from it. It does not convey the same emotion to everyone. It is subjective. Art is subjective, and the value of art is subjective. It's not that hard to understand.

Why is a $5 bill worth 5 times more then a $1 bill? A $5 bill isn't 5 times bigger. It doesn't have 5 times more ink on it. What is the reason it is worth 5 times more? If you get everyone to believe that it is worth 5 times more then it is true. Just because something is legally enforceable or true does not mean it is right.

"Even a rock, due to its inherent property of hardness, is valuable  - it can be used as a weapon and save human life in some circumstances. In that case, a person might pay a million dollars for it.."  This is about the smartest thing you will probably ever say. I'd think about this for a while if I were you.

Here is where your logic breaks down though. A particle of a rock is not a rock. A rock is a lot of rock particles put together that make a rock. These are two different things. Is a particle of a human a human? No you need a lot of different particles put together to make a human.

Who are you to tell anyone what the value of a rock particle is anyway? That is something for individuals to decide for themselves. You do not speak for everyone when you say what is valuable for human needs you speak for yourself. Maybe this rock particle came from the moon, or a far away planet. Maybe it's value to someone is something more then it's inherent hardness. This is where your elitist attitude fails. You have no say in what two people find value in. If two people want to trade something between each other that has no value to you or human kind why would you even care? It's none of your business in the first place.

I'll break it down in the stupidest way I can. Hopefully you will be able to understand. Person A draws a number 1 on a piece of paper and Person B draws a number 3 on a piece of paper. Person A and person B like each others number better and want to trade these pieces of paper with each other and they are both happy with that. You being elitist person C have no business telling person A and B what they can do, trade between each other or find value in. This fact right here destroys pretty much everything you are saying.

By your own words you say email has value because it contains information about some aspect of reality. The blockchain holds this same type of information. The blockchain is a record of truth.

Even rock particles have some value for the simple fact they exist. Anything that exists can be traded between two people and can be a utility.

The more time that passes the more people will start to find more use from cryptocurrency. Each time this happens it will add more value to it and what you are saying will become less creditable.

Bitcoin has value, because a lot of resources must be spent (hardware, electricity and bandwidth) to mine Bitcoins. Gold and Silver are unfounded but they have value, because it’s difficult to be found and mined. The same applies to Bitcoin. Bitcoin has unique features, so people want it, and they pay for it.

So, Bitcoin HAS value. Countries tolerate Bitcoin, because they know that it has value, and it’s not a scam.

How do you mean that bank creates number out of thin air and gives this number to borrower? Bank cannot just create number of thin air, but it needs it to take it from somewhere. From it's asset. It does not have unlimited funds to lend money to borrowers worthy of it. It cannot just create money.

Please explain us your understanding of term "value". In the equilibrium of supply and demand there is an absolute value of a good or service. I.e. the price, basically. And that can be "calculated" only long term.

Don't hurt your mind to much thinking about it. What is really amusing to me is that even though elitist like you have wasted a lot of their life learning facts in higher education they still need poorly educated people like me to school you on what value is.

If "the value of a thing is it's ability to provide some utility" and value is not subjective please tell me what makes a painting or artwork valuable. Why is some art worth nothing and some paintings are worth a million dollars?

Do you really think everyone on this planet values their heart exactly the same even as a utility? There are people on this earth that have some serious problems and are in traumatic consent pain they can only pray and hope that their heart gives out so they may die because that's what they want.

Is an engines sole purpose to convert energy into mechanical energy? Are there not old steam, airplane, and motorcycle engines in museums on display strictly for their design and aesthetic features? Value is always a utility? Is everyone's time worth exactly the same? Is everyone's love and friendship the same?

I don't think the question here is does the heart pump blood or an engine make mechanical power. Of corse it does. Are these things utilities, yes and they are also other things besides utilities. What I am saying here is the value of those things are different to different people and value is subjective not objective. An elitist such as yourself tries to tell people what the value of something is. The truth is you have no say in what is valuable to me or in my life and vice versa.

Values of things are subjective and do not have set prices in which they are worth the same all the time. Even circumstance can make the same item two different prices to the same person.

Bitcoin is worth zero? I'm sorry but this thing you say is worth nothing can buy my airplane ticket to travel across the country so to me it has some value. What you are saying just isn't good enough.

Things need to be utilities for them to have value? Honestly I don't even believe you believe that. I think you are just trying to talk yourself into your weird way of thinking. I'm glad you spent a lot of your time and money going to higher education to learn how to make a simple chart to explain to others the way you think is better then the way they think. I'm happy for you. You have the world figured out. But in all honesty I don't think anyone here really cares and if I were you I'd go get my money back from that fancy college if that's as much critical thinking that they are teaching nowadays.

You do not seem to sure of yourself. Keep trying though, this is a strong subject for such a weak mind.

You are the poorly educated one. Instead of admitting, that Your initial logic was faulted, You keep digging Yourself deeper in, with even more broken logic. I wonder, how much more of it can You produce...

Just to use Your own words: if value is "a things ability to provide some utility." its is subjective already by Your own definition. Pair of classes wear good value for shortsighted, I dont give a shite. They are not valuable for me. Insulin pump has lifesaving value for diabetic, no value at all to me.

And Your own engine/value sample: some people value more powerful engines, some economic. Even this ability is not valued identically between individuals. How can You be, to not understand that??

The value of anything is subjective. Ask 1000 different people what they think a bitcoin is worth and get 1000 different answers. You see to some people Bitcoin is worth zero because they either don’t care about it or don’t want to use it or maybe even know anything about it. To some people bitcoin is very valuable. It would depend on who you are asking. Everything is only worth what someone else will pay for it. There is no such thing as absolute value. To some people gold and diamonds are just shiny rocks. What is the dollar value you would put on love or a friendship? What is your pet dog or cat worth? What is your time worth? What is your car worth? These questions all have very different answers depending on who you are talking to because value is subjective not objective.

Your understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.
USD is not "loan created money". FED has not borrowed money from aliens or Illuminati to loan it forward to business banks. It printed it - created it from thin air. And the EUR/USD is not a ratio between "claims" to loans in respective currencies. That ratio is derived absolutely and only from supply and demand of each currency for another. The same goes for BTC/USD.

You haven't defined a term "value", as interpretations I think are clashing. In your case it definitely isn't a thing of supply and demand - like in neoliberal capitalism.

Does Ethereum as a network have value? If not, does Uber or Airbnb or Reddit have value and why?

The same argument used against bitcoin in this case can also be used against every other items on the list, the USD as some printed pieces of paper that are worthless unless people say it is, for example it is worthless to some locals in some remote part of the World, an iPhone can be valued as some child's toy which will be of no use to an adult.The concept of intrinsic value is only useful when there is a need to be satisfied.

Will bitcoin today has a value and I think it will never fall into zero value, because it has now an amazing price, if we are in dip today maybe tommorow or in the next months or year we are on pump status crypto is unstable. So there is a posibility to rise or maybe fall depending on the volume of investors on the feild.

And are not paper bills just the same? It is just a piece of paper with denoting values printed on it. Not until unless the government state otherwise that the paper bill is to be accepted with the amount printed on it, the paper bill remains of no value.

Just as gold. What gives gold its value? What can gold be formed into that silver could not? Or even stainless steel, a much cheaper alternative. Yet gold is more valuable than its competitors. Why? Because people gives value unto it.

And it is the same with bitcoin. People gives value to it. And again, how could something of no value provide purchasing power? Perhaps your argument was true until bitcoin proved to the world its worth.

You are just not the sharpest pencil in the box, thats all. I wont even explain You, how macro economics work, You are unable to understand even the simplest and most obvious arguments.

Your employer transfers Your salary, that You get for... I dont know... selling hot dogs... to Your bank account. Its is Your jobs value converted into more usable form - Your bank balance. Wtf You speak about, numbers have no value?

Your bank balance, usable in most places, together with reasonable assurance, that someone else can not use it instead of You - this is value. You basically carry Your job´s value with You, with opportunity to use it where You like and on what You like.

That explanation is completely inadequate. Why do bitcoins need to be "things" at all? This is a requirement you invented without reason. You say, "if we now ask what actual thing outside the database is owned by Peter, we face an inherent contradiction."

Owning bitcoins doesn't entail owning "things outside the decentralized ledger." Why would it need to? The whole point is that they're a native currency in a monetary network. If you have a balance at a bank, you don't have a "thing" to show for it either -- only numbers in the bank's database, numbers on a screen. Do dollars have no value when they're just numbers in a database? What matters is what other people will pay for them, not your circular proofs that depend on your cherry-picked definitions.

Also, let's take a look at the definition of "thing."


How are bitcoins not "things?"

And it is also an oxymoron to state that a bitcoin worth US $6K has a zero value, don't you think otherwise?

What happened here is that you talked about physicality. An iphone is a cellphone, a US Dollar is a paper bill and IBM Shares are bond or equity that is with proofing of a certificate or something to that effect.

It is for this mere reason that you based your assumption that bitcoin has zero value. And truly, bitcoin has no physical form simply because it was designed electronically (or digitally, whichever you prefer to call it). Just like an email, an email remains to be digital in nature with no physical form until you had that email printed. But until the printing, does it mean that the email holds no value at all? Of course not, right?

Thus, i do believe that bitcoin is more than what you think of it. It is not zero value. It has its own purchasing power.

Ok, explain to us how a credit card gets credited by money and how fiat currencies are being duplicated out of thin air when

you deposit your physical cash into Banks and how they "duplicate" that money, when they loan it to someone else. Also

called, Fractional reserve banking , it is a banking system in which only a fraction of bank deposits are backed by actual

cash on hand and are available for withdrawal. A digital entry out of thin air... Magic Money with ZERO value.    They only

had to push a few buttons on a computer, nearly no electricity was spend to create that money.  

Bitcoin is not created out of thin air.There is mining cost for bitcoins to be mined.If you had added another column for US dollar,then it would best suit for what you have mentioned.

So the banks are the only entities entitled to have ledgers we can trust? You have missed a great part of the real world.

And then why are you so reluctant in using (and paying to use) a ledger maintained by the community, in a way nobody can cheat it?

So the amount in bank is abstract mathematical object, however you trust you will get goods in exchange for that (eg. via debit cards), while you claim that the abstract mathematical objects from Bitcoin ledger are worthless.

See the/your double standards here? Imho you just contradicted your own logic, meaning that the initial "logic" is faulty.

PS. People do donate now and then. And even gold, or paper money, or even a sandwich are things you can posses and can donate; however, it's not important in the main discussion.

So you explained what a ledger is. Your logic is "interesting", the ledger applies to banks, but not to Bitcoin.
Also you didn't answer my questions.