There is no causal relationship between inflation and the nature of dollars.
Well you did not answer my question. I f dollar is similar to "RIGHT to goods" than where are my 97 $ worth goods? dollar is just piece of paper that i worth as much as someone is going to give for it currently. It has no value. From that chart you can see that its value is continuously going to 0. Average fiat currency dies after 27 years... Your 97 $ worth goods are on the market. Borrowers are constantly producing goods and services to be able to earn salaries or revenue for their dollar loan payments. In other words, borrowers are obligated to use your dollars, which means that you have rights to their goods and services. So, it's pretty simple. |
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If having a dollar is similar to have right to goods than explain me this chart...  Why my 100$ bill from 1900 is now worth as much as 3$ was worth in 1900? Where are my 97$ worth goods? Disappeared due to inflation? Due to printing scam fiat money into system without coverage of goods? Dollar (any fiat currency without gold standard) is the biggest scam of present. There is no causal relationship between inflation and the nature of dollars. |
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This is an unfunded article and a trash because from your analysis on dollar how the bank issues it as a loan to how the owners of goods and services accept it as a collateral does not colorate with the economic definition of money, bitcoin is the advance level of all currency and at that it run on the decentralized bank call the blockchain and if you agree with me with the definition of money then bitcoin will not be a language manipulation as you have said.
Bitcoin is not a currency. A currency is money. Money is an actual thing, such as good or certificate that grants specific rights (gold certificate or debt certificate(dollars, euros). Bitcoin is DB entry. DB entry is a record or notation of an occurrence. Bitcoin is the record of occurrence where one gives his goods, services or money for free. Calling a DB entry a currency is semantic manipulation. That's why I said that bitcoin is a scam that thrives on language manipulation. |
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No, read again, that is not the point. There is no title or db.
That's irrelevant. Any market or payment system assumes the exchange of goods, services or rights between parties. In the case of bitcoin nothing is exchanged, but only numbers are added into the DB (blockchain). Thus, the point is that bitcoin has nothing to do with market or payment or agreement on value or economy. The whole bitcoin system is just a DB management system. People are giving their stuff for free because they falsely believe that DB management system is payment system.  I get it, I really do, new concepts are hard, sometimes even treacherous; but this was all dealt with in 1929. Your standard economic models did not work then, and they do not work now. I guess somehow that will be irrelevant to you. DB management system is not a new concept. What is new is the level of human stupidity where adding entries into a DB is called payment. |
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Fiat is loan, and loan is not nothing.
You have a very wrong perception of what fiat is. Fiat is not just a loan fiat is something like a governmental order or decree of a particular rejoin it could also be financial My perception of FIAT is not the issue here. The issue is the fact that FIAT is RIGHT (economic thing), while bitcoin is DB entry and that giving economic thing for DB entry is giving your stuff for free. |
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No, read again, that is not the point. There is no title or db.
That's irrelevant. Any market or payment system assumes the exchange of goods, services or rights between parties. In the case of bitcoin nothing is exchanged, but only numbers are added into the DB (blockchain). Thus, the point is that bitcoin has nothing to do with market or payment or agreement on value or economy. The whole bitcoin system is just a DB management system. People are giving their stuff for free because they falsely believe that DB management system is payment system. |
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If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that economic things(goods, services or rights) cannot appear or disappear by adding or deleting numerical database(DB) entries, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmically added numerical entry (50 initially) into a DB called blockchain, is in economic sense actually NOTHING or nothingness.
This is absolutely right. You can't create stuff out of thin air. There is no title (what you are calling 'rights') in Bitcoin. There are no coins, or transactions or ledgers. They are all metaphors for what we are doing. 'We' as in people, real live humans. What we are doing is coming to agreements, peer-to-peer, that my x is worth your y, and we are both happy to swap them. We redesigned economics, correctly this time, while you slept, so that it is actually honest. But the whole point is that "your x" is DB entry and "my y" is economic thing ( good, service or right). Giving goods, services or rights for DB entry is not market exchange (agreement on value), but giving your stuff for free and hoping others will do the same, which is essentially how ponzi schemes operate. |
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If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries in a database, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database(blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, is actually the creation of NOTHING or nothingness.
Nothing? Ask the miners how much investment were spent on electricity, and mining equipment.
But people did something strange — they gave a fancy name to this nothingness — Bitcoin. So, a mere change of entry in a database is given a name, which is in itself a bizarre thing to do. But anyhow, here is where the language manipulation kicks in. Changing entries is obviously just a database management and it belongs to the field of informatics. But what people did is they took the definition of "payment" - which belongs to the field of economy, and they copy/pasted that definition next to the phrase — "change of entry in a database". This created the illusion that when you change entry in a database(blockchain) you are actually transferring SOMETHING to another person, i.e. that you are paying. But payment is transfer of SOMETHING (rights, services or goods) from one person to another.
There are no "changes" made in the blockchain, it's an append only "ledger". But not an ordinary "ledger", it's a censorship-resistant "ledger". An open, neutral, permissionless, stateless "ledger" housing digital a "coin" with no central clearing-house.One "coin" costs $3,800. You might believe the "coin" doesn't value, but the market clearly does.  Well, that's just semantics then, and my argument looks like this: If we start from a simple and undeniable fact that economic things(goods, services or rights) cannot appear or disappear by adding or deleting numerical database(DB) entries, then it is obvious that so called Block Reward, which is just an algorithmically added numerical entry (50 initially) into a DB called blockchain, is in economic sense actually NOTHING or nothingness. |
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Since Bitcoin is the name for changed entry in a database and SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries, Bitcoin has nothing to do with mentioned economic concept. Bitcoin is an informatics concept related to database management. On the other hand, fiat money is economic concept since fiat money is DEBT or LOAN, which is an actual thing - SOMETHING that has supply by definition.
In the same way fiat money is represented by DB entries at banks, Bitcoin is represented by entries in blockchain.They are similar. All the rest is convention. In the same way one accept fiat for his work and pay for goods and services, another can accept Bitcoin for his work and pay for goods and services. Indeed, there are difficulties in this because the poor legislation and the lack of payment processors make it difficult to accept and spend Bitcoin, but that will be solved in time. You say debt, loan and so on. Cannot [insert any entity here] lend Bitcoin? As I said, it's all about convention. You have to either get out of that box, either stop trolling, whichever is the case. Well, the point of this discussion is exactly the distinction between the actual thing (DEBT or LOAN or FIAT MONEY) and its representation (DB entry). So, we have TWO separate entities - the thing (money) and DB entry (representation of the thing). On the other hand, Bitcoin is DB entry and DB entry is Bitcoin. Thus, we have only one entity. That means that NOTHING is represented in a DB called blockchain and its entries are just empty or useless mathematical abstractions. It's like changing number 0 to number 50 in your excel spreadsheet. Hence, Bitcoin system is just a system which changes, stores and secures numbers, which has nothing to do with economy, money, payment, asset or whatever, since all these instances presuppose the existence (or the exchange) of actual things, not numbers. In a Bitcoin system no such thing exists, but only numbers, which renders this system just a DB management system. |
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Debt is not scam but a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received. Scam is when you tell the public that cnaged entry in a database(Bitcoin) is money or asset.
Debt is a scam when you can create them infitinitely. USD is debt paper and FED can create debt paper infinitely. The debt papers they are creating is not backed by anything. This is how this game ends: Switzerland’s Central Bank Made $55 Billion Last Year—More Than AppleSwitzerland's CB made more money than Apple by doing simply nothing. This is what the US doing for decades. You can't do any of these with Bitcoin. FIAT = Debt Paper = Bubble = SCAM. Bitcoin = Pin. What a stupid argument. It is like saying: we can create numbers infinitely - therefore NUMBERS are SCAM. Stupid argument? At least I got one. You don't have any. Come back when you have something to say. Cursing and shouting gibberish won't help you. Well, your argument is indeed stupid since the ability to produce something doesn't render something a scam. Regarding my argument, it is pretty simple: Bitcoin is the name for changed entry in a database (change from 0 to 50 initially). By changing entries, SOMETHING cannot appear or despair. Therefore, Bitcoin is NOTHING. Telling the public that NOTHING is money or asset is SCAM. You are still continuing with your gibberish. Read my post above again. Bitcoin's supply is limited. It is not debt papers. It doesn't promise you anything but a safe transaction. FIAT used to be backed by gold. It is now backed by debt. You can't put a cap on the debt you create. Gold was limited supply, debt is not. That's why they had to leave gold standard. Bitcoin is similar to gold standard. The supply is limited and you have to work to extract new coins. The difference is, you can send and receive your money very fast, unlike gold. Also no physical form neither, again unlike gold. Bitcoin is the ultimate form of money. The fact that some algorithmic constraint doesn't allow for sum of numeric changes in a database to exceed 21 million, has nothing to do with supply. Supply is a economic concept that describes the total amount of SOMETHING that is available to consumers. Since Bitcoin is the name for changed entry in a database and SOMETHING cannot appear or despair by changing entries, Bitcoin has nothing to do with mentioned economic concept. Bitcoin is an informatics concept related to database management. On the other hand, fiat money is economic concept since fiat money is DEBT or LOAN, which is an actual thing - SOMETHING that has supply by definition. |
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Debt is not scam but a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received. Scam is when you tell the public that cnaged entry in a database(Bitcoin) is money or asset.
Debt is a scam when you can create them infitinitely. USD is debt paper and FED can create debt paper infinitely. The debt papers they are creating is not backed by anything. This is how this game ends: Switzerland’s Central Bank Made $55 Billion Last Year—More Than AppleSwitzerland's CB made more money than Apple by doing simply nothing. This is what the US doing for decades. You can't do any of these with Bitcoin. FIAT = Debt Paper = Bubble = SCAM. Bitcoin = Pin. What a stupid argument. It is like saying: we can create numbers infinitely - therefore NUMBERS are SCAM. Stupid argument? At least I got one. You don't have any. Come back when you have something to say. Cursing and shouting gibberish won't help you. Well, your argument is indeed stupid since the ability to produce something doesn't render something a scam. Regarding my argument, it is pretty simple: Bitcoin is the name for changed entry in a database (change from 0 to 50 initially). By changing entries, SOMETHING cannot appear or despair. Therefore, Bitcoin is NOTHING. Telling the public that NOTHING is money or asset is SCAM. |
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Debt is not scam but a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received. Scam is when you tell the public that cnaged entry in a database(Bitcoin) is money or asset.
Debt is a scam when you can create them infitinitely. USD is debt paper and FED can create debt paper infinitely. The debt papers they are creating is not backed by anything. This is how this game ends: Switzerland’s Central Bank Made $55 Billion Last Year—More Than AppleSwitzerland's CB made more money than Apple by doing simply nothing. This is what the US doing for decades. You can't do any of these with Bitcoin. FIAT = Debt Paper = Bubble = SCAM. Bitcoin = Pin. What a stupid argument. It is like saying: we can create numbers infinitely - therefore NUMBERS are SCAM. |
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When a bank grants a loan, the loan contract is shown both, as an increase in bank’s assets because the bank now has an additional claim on borrowers, and as a positive entry on the liability side of the bank’s balance sheet, because fiat money owners now have an additional claim on the bank. Given the fact that a claim is property in the fullest sense of that term, that it has its own value, and it may be sold, transferred, mortgaged, and inherited, it follows that dollars, euros or pounds are actual things with intrinsic value.
fiat money is as you said in previous posts. just an entry in a database. the contract terms are not saved to that bank database. fiat money is just digits in a database the rules of granting a loan are the rules of decision of those maintaining the databas. much like the bitcoins consensus protocol decides which block is acceptable what happens with the units of account of a database are not shown in the database. again the consensus of a bank. the consensus protocol of bitcoin and the humans involved decide the value and reason to move the unit of account from one entity to another bitcoin however is actually better than the banks fiat database because bitcoin can define rules in code rather than relying on paper/human thought. EG smart contracts can set utility/function to the units of account. even the very simple things such as a block reward remains locked(maturing) for 100 further blocks ahead of it before being spendable. thus making bitcoins unit of account more than just an entry in a database. but something of function/utility. bitcoin too can do all the function of fiat. it can be transfered, the reason for the transfer can be for the same human decision as fiat, for being sold against products and services, inheritance. and yes even used to pay for a house. it can be escrowed and contracts set up that people then need to pay with other financial sources to repay the bitcoin payment of the house. just like mortgages What that means in practice is that borrowers have two options
loan agreements are just protocol rules. much like bitcoin consensus rules. but its funny how your now diverting away from talking about the fiat itself and now talking about rules of human decision outside the context of the unit of account database And that’s the beauty of fiat money. Since it comes from debt, and debt is a legally enforceable liability that must be settled, the demand for dollars, euros or pounds will exist as long as this type of money exists. In other words, even if people completely abandon fiat money as means of exchange, the borrowers are still forced to use it until all their debt is paid off,
no they are not forced to use it until all their debt is paid off if i have british debt. i can simply get on a plane. go to america and use dollars and just leave the british debt.simple choose never to touch a pound ever again debts can be written off i can live on bitcoin, euro or any other currency. i can even live like a hermit and forrage for food. or do manual labour in exchang for barter for food/lodgings and avoid all fiat currency all together this is because the fiat database unit of account is as you say just numbers on a database since non-acceptance of fiat money won’t make borrowers’ obligations go away. That means that ultimately, fiat money will provide its owners with actual things in the form of goods, services or property of borrowers, just like the gold certificates provided their owners with actual gold. To put it another way, in the past, fiat money was backed by gold, today, it is backed by the assets of the banks and by land, cars, homes and other property of the borrowers.
So no, loans are not just entries into a bank database. Loans are both rights and obligations. Bitcoin on the other hand is just entry into a database, i.e. - NOTHING.
a blockreward is just an entry in a database. but the bitcoin consensus rules are the rights and obligations that make that blockreward 'granted' to exist. learn about consensus rules and orphans/rejects. it might surprise you EG a block reward may only exist if it shows it has performed a minimum task and met rules. only blocks meting thos obligations get the right to have a blockrward granted to exist. same as fiat is just an entry in a database. but the banker rules are the rights and obligations that make that fiat 'granted' to exist atleast grasp the basics of economy Well, you can keep repeating your nonsense but this won't change the fact that fiat money is DEBT(right and obligation), while entry in a database is just means to expres the size of this right and obligation. Your Bitcoin on the other hand is entry in a database that expresses the size of NOTHING. |
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What if it is a database?
If you think that way, then Central Bank printed money are just papers.
It is the people who make these things valuable.
Let me think further like you...
Gold is a damn stone which shouldn't have any value... but it does. Guess why? Because we people give it.
Bitcoin does something and what it does is being found valuable by the community.
As simple as it gets...
Central Bank printed money are papers that represent loans of borrowers the same as paper Treasury bill certificates represented a short-term debt obligation of the U.S. government. Loan and debt are SOMETHING. Bitcoin is NOTHING. And they can print those papers infinitely which means they can create infinite debt. That's uh scam baby. You can't do that with bitcoin because you can't create more than 21 million coins. The amount of debt you can have with bitcoin is limited, unlike FIAT. Go take eco101. You need proper education. Debt is not scam but a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received. Scam is when you tell the public that changed entry in a database(Bitcoin) is money or asset. |
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What if it is a database?
If you think that way, then Central Bank printed money are just papers.
It is the people who make these things valuable.
Let me think further like you...
Gold is a damn stone which shouldn't have any value... but it does. Guess why? Because we people give it.
Bitcoin does something and what it does is being found valuable by the community.
As simple as it gets...
Central Bank printed money are papers that represent loans of borrowers the same as paper Treasury bill certificates represented a short-term debt obligation of the U.S. government. Loan and debt are SOMETHING. Bitcoin is NOTHING. |
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And where does the value for the LOAN come from? Cmon dude, do some critical thinking, maybe fill up your basic economics gaps. There's nothing that FIAT has going for it, and bitcoin doesn't - except for a number of ways to take power away from the working people and putting it in the hands of central planners.
From loan contracts, collaterals and bank capital. fxsurfer.. you lack the basic knowledge of FIAT that has had the same rules probably longer then you have been alive.. so you have had plenty of time to research fiat.. LOANS are not created from bank capital or collateral. they are just entries into a bank database. do your research.. im laughing that you think banks are using capital to make loans.. When a bank grants a loan, the loan contract is shown both, as an increase in bank’s assets because the bank now has an additional claim on borrowers, and as a positive entry on the liability side of the bank’s balance sheet, because fiat money owners now have an additional claim on the bank. Given the fact that a claim is property in the fullest sense of that term, that it has its own value, and it may be sold, transferred, mortgaged, and inherited, it follows that dollars, euros or pounds are actual things with intrinsic value. What that means in practice is that borrowers have two options: either they will sell their services and valuable things to fiat money owners directly on the marketplace to get money for their loan payments, or the bank will take possession of their land, cars, homes and will sell their valuable things to the owners of fiat money indirectly, via foreclosure. So one way or another, legal enforceability of fiat money, i.e. its claim status, ensures that its owners will come back into the possession of valuable things similar to those they handed out to borrowers or other people in the money circulation chain. And that’s the beauty of fiat money. Since it comes from debt, and debt is a legally enforceable liability that must be settled, the demand for dollars, euros or pounds will exist as long as this type of money exists. In other words, even if people completely abandon fiat money as means of exchange, the borrowers are still forced to use it until all their debt is paid off, since non-acceptance of fiat money won’t make borrowers’ obligations go away. That means that ultimately, fiat money will provide its owners with actual things in the form of goods, services or property of borrowers, just like the gold certificates provided their owners with actual gold. To put it another way, in the past, fiat money was backed by gold, today, it is backed by the assets of the banks and by land, cars, homes and other property of the borrowers. So no, loans are not just entries into a bank database. Loans are both rights and obligations. Bitcoin on the other hand is just entry into a database, i.e. - NOTHING. |
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Well, you can call fiat money(loans) crap if you like, but this won't change the fact that Bitcoin system is not a payment system but a database management system and that it has nothing to do with money and economy.
Except that it clearly is an economy. It's our economy and we couldn't care less if it doesn't meet your "standards" to qualify as an economy. You are of no consequence to us. It is not economy because economy assumes the exchange of SOMETHING while in the case of Bitcoin NOTHING is exchanged but only database entries are altered. |
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This is technology and not a scam, if in the case of a transfer the sent is a value, and if you consider bitcoin to be just manipulation, then you will never be able to exchange bitcoin with fiat that you can use to meet your needs.
Calling a database management system a payment system and a database entry a money is a scam by definition. |
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So no new or original thoughts, then? Just another dull rehash of your last couple of topics with no fresh insights. Have you ever stopped to consider that not all of us place any value in your legally enforced debt obligations? If you value them, great. Stick to that and leave us in peace. We happen to believe our system is better off without those.
If I wanted to be slaved to a corporate enitity for taking out a loan which they magicked into existence from nothing, I would do that. But since I currently live debt free, there's no value for me in the traditional banking system. There is only cost, inconvenience, surveillance and restrictions. A bunch of worthless middlemen profiteering off my economic activity while offering me very little in return. You can keep that crap.
Well, you can call fiat money(loans) crap if you like, but this won't change the fact that Bitcoin system is not a payment system but a database management system and that it has nothing to do with money and economy. |
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A private key is a mathematical proof of ownership for whatever bitcoins are associated with that key. That mathematical proof is the only way to interact with those coins, nothing else can interact with it, no government, company or person can do it without those private keys. Cryptography makes it impossible.
Mathematics, are tangible parts of our universe. Numbers and notations might be abstract, since we gave them value and order, but mathematics are natural, and exist within the realm of the tangible universe.
So bitcoin is a currency based of tangible principles.
Fiat is abstract, since there is no protocol behind it. Your loans do not follow any mathematical immutable rule.
Fiat is a scam.
This is just another instance of language manipulation. "Block Reward" is just an algorithmic change of entry in a database (blockchain) — from 0 to 50 initially, and this change is called Bitcoin. This has nothing to do with "tangible principles", but it is just a database management. Fractional reserve banking is a banking system in which banks only hold a fraction of the money their customers deposit as reserves. This allows them to use the rest of it to make loans and thereby essentially create new money. This gives commercial banks the power to directly affect money supply. When the rest of the money they 'create' is done, how do you think this is done. Not by adjusting a centralized database? Don't cite something incorrectly then state wrong again. This conversation is pretty tedious So, how that changes the OP? |
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