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121  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is the most nonsensical invention in human history on: December 28, 2018, 09:08:59 AM
The discovery of bitcoin is the most impressive thing, with a belief system that all trades can be smooth. Online by researching all kinds of things that waste time, this is not effective. In the case of crypto trading, it has many features that are able to provide investors with interest. Trust is expensive and this is highly valued.

Of course that "all trades can be smooth" since you are trading the ownership of nothing. 
122  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is the most nonsensical invention in human history on: December 27, 2018, 05:20:06 PM
In short:
Fiat is based on debt, Bitcoin is based on trust.
I know what I prefer!

Ponzi is also based on trust. So?
123  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Bitcoin Is The Most Ridiculous Invention Ever Made on: December 27, 2018, 05:11:43 PM
https://youtu.be/pSbSKGDypPY

The above video shows that by buying Bitcoin one is selling ownership of something and buying ownership of nothing. This is because Bitcoin is just a fancy name for changed digits, and the fact is that something cannot appear or disappear by changing digits. Since Bitcoin is the first time in human history that people voluntarily and massively give up something to become the owners of absolutely and literally nothing, this makes Bitcoin the most ridiculous invention ever made.
124  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 04, 2018, 04:42:22 PM
Of course, but the bottom line is this. "Spreadsheet entries" in the form of Dollar or Euro are created for the borrowing of goods and services from the general population and returning them back later. On the other hand, "spreadsheet entries" in the form of Bitcoin and Crypto are created for extracting goods and services from the general population without returning them back later. And that's the difference between a legitimate business and a scam.

If you are referring to the circular flow of income -- that applies to Bitcoin as well, not just fiat currencies.

You can get paid in Bitcoin for goods and services and you can in turn use Bitcoin to pay for goods and services yourself. You can buy mining hardware using Bitcoin, pay your electricty bill using bitcoins you mined and spend the remaining bitcoins on Pizzas or whatever else you need. Granted, there's friction with the classical banking system (ie. when converting to fiat) but if you stay within a closed circuit of crypto it's rather frictionless, especially globally speaking (anyone who ever sent money abroad will know, as well as anyone who ever ran a small online business with international customers).

No, I am referring to the fact that for every dollar that is in circulation, there is a borrower who was issued a loan and used loan created dollars to get(borrow) goods and services from the general population. For that reason he is legally obligated - by the loan contract (backed by collateral), to return dollars back to the issuer (bank), and in the process have less purchasing power for goods and services. That is how he "returns" borrowed goods and services back to the general population. On the other hand, bitcoin miner used bitcoins to extract dollars, goods and services from the general population, but unlike borrower, he has no obligation to return goods and services back to the general population. Thus, unlike Dollar,  Bitcoin is not debt instrument that reduces purchasing power of borrowers through the banking system. Hence, in the first instance we have: 'borrowing goods and services from the general population - returning goods and services back to the general population', which is legitimate. In the second instance we have "extracting goods and services from the general population", which is a scam.  
125  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 04, 2018, 02:52:50 PM
Ability to transfer something (money, bitcoin, text, picture or whatever) is indeed  - utility. But this ability belongs to the transferring system, and not the thing that is transferred. Everything can be transferred via some transferring system but that doesn't mean everything has utility. Bitcoin is a spreadsheet entry and it has zero utility.

Bitcoin the network can not function without Bitcoin the currency. These "spreadsheet entries" are what pays the miners, similar to how other "spreadsheet entries" pay bankers, marketers, developers, etc. These "spreadsheet entries" pay the transferring system. You can't have one without the other.

Of course, but the bottom line is this. "Spreadsheet entries" in the form of Dollar or Euro are created for the borrowing of goods and services from the general population and returning them back later. On the other hand, "spreadsheet entries" in the form of Bitcoin and Crypto are created for extracting goods and services from the general population without returning them back later. And that's the difference between a legitimate business and a scam.
126  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 04, 2018, 02:10:14 PM
Monetary transactions are enabled by internet and miners equipment, not by Bitcoin.

The internet alone, by itself, does not enable monetary transactions.

What do you think pays for the mining infrastructure?
Transaction is an instance of buying or selling something. Of course, the internet alone does not enable the buying or selling of something, but what that has to do with the topic at hand?

Because you stated above that transactions are enabled by the internet and miners.

Obviously the internet by itself can't enable transactions, so in this case miners are required.

But what do you think pays for mining?

(spoiler alert: Bitcoin does. No native token, no mining, no permissionless monetary transactions via the internet)


To repeat: The utility of cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin is monetary transactions. Whether Bitcoin is overpriced or undervalued is a different question, of course. But if you accept that banks, credit card companies and money transmitters (and by extension their respective stocks and bonds) have utility, you also have to accept that cryptocurrencies do. Everything else is just cherry picking.

Ability to transfer something (money, bitcoin, text, picture or whatever) is indeed  - utility. But this ability belongs to the transferring system, and not to the thing that is transferred. Everything can be transferred via some transferring system but that doesn't mean everything has utility. Picture has utility because it is used by art lovers for the  fulfillment of their aesthetic senses. Car has utility because it is used for driving. Dollar has utility because it is used for borrowing goods and services from the general population and returning them back later. Hence, these items can be both - transferred and utilized. But bitcoin is just an empty spreadsheet entry, and as such it cannot be utilized by anyone anywhere, but only transferred.
127  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 04, 2018, 05:34:13 AM
Can you please answer one simple question: how can you utilize bitcoin, or in other words, what can you do with Bitcoin besides transfer it to another person? When you answer it you will grasp the full stupidity of links you provided.

Your argument seems to hinge on this single premise: That bitcoin has no intrinsic value other than something for people to trade back and forth.

If you look at every non backed currency in the world you will see the same thing. No value other than as a "product" to be transferred between people. Bitcoin is only a scam as far as pretty much every paper currency in the world is a scam.
Fiat currencies are debt based assets, i.e. products designed for people who want to consume goods and services today and return them in the future. These people are called borrowers. With newly produced fiat they have access to the pool of goods and services which gets filled via economic activity of the general population. But since borrowers have to repay their debt with salaries they received for their economic activity - their contribution to that pool of goods and services, this reduces their purchasing power, i.e. access to the pool. In this way they return goods and services back to the general population. All this is backed by collateral, and in case of borrowers default, their land, cars, houses and other property will end up in the pool of goods and services for the general population to buy with fiat that borrowers put into circulation. Now, are miners - those who put bitcoin into circulation, and in that way receive goods and services from the general population, obligated to return goods and services back to the general population? Obviously not.

So Bitcoin has nothing to do with fiat currencies. The latter are debt instruments. The former is scam designed to steal good and services from the general population.



128  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 03, 2018, 05:25:16 PM
Monetary transactions are enabled by internet and miners equipment, not by Bitcoin.

The internet alone, by itself, does not enable monetary transactions.

What do you think pays for the mining infrastructure?
Transaction is an instance of buying or selling something. Of course, the internet alone does not enable the buying or selling of something, but what that has to do with the topic at hand?
129  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 03, 2018, 05:21:21 PM
Bitcoin is a spreadsheet entry which has no utility. Egg and gold have utility because humans can consume them for fulfilling their needs. With spreadsheet entry, no human needs can be fulfilled.

That spreadsheet entry is extremely important, I think you are missing the value there.
https://hackernoon.com/why-everyone-missed-the-most-important-invention-in-the-last-500-years-c90b0151c169
https://www.quora.com/What-is-Triple-Ledger-Accounting


Can you please answer one simple question: how can you utilize bitcoin, or in other words, what can you do with Bitcoin besides transfer it to another person? When you answer it you will grasp the full stupidity of links you provided.
130  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 03, 2018, 04:59:08 PM
Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have utility as well though. Monetary transactions, as enabled by Bitcoin, have utility, otherwise we would have neither banks nor credit card companies nor remittance services.

On the other side if you look at gold purely from a utility perspective, we are looking at a clearly over-valued asset. If industrial (and cosmetic) utility were the only determining factors, gold would (1) be less over-priced in comparison to other metals that see comparable practical use and (2) not run counter-cyclical to economic growth (unlike platinum, for example).

Millions upon millions of men and women use gold daily to adorn their bodies. We all use electronics that have trace amounts of gold in them. Gold is used in dentistry, medicine, aerospace, and elsewhere. More than two-thirds of newly produced gold is utilized this way. Meaning, gold has utilization capacity and we can use gold to compare it with other goods or services. In that way we can determine whether gold is overpriced or underpriced. For example, we empirically know that a gram of gold has lower utilization capacity than a car, and higher utilization capacity than an egg. So if it is priced above a car, we would immediately know it is overpriced. If it is priced below an egg, we would immediately know it is underpriced. In short, things with utilization capacity are not scams.

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have utility as well though. Monetary transactions, as enabled by Bitcoin, have utility, otherwise we would have neither banks nor credit card companies nor remittance services.

On the other side if you look at gold purely from a utility perspective, we are looking at a clearly over-valued asset. If industrial (and cosmetic) utility were the only determining factors, gold would (1) be less over-priced in comparison to other metals that see comparable practical use and (2) not run counter-cyclical to economic growth (unlike platinum, for example).
Monetary transactions are enabled by internet and miners equipment, not by Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a spreadsheet entry which has no utility. Egg and gold have utility because humans can consume them for fulfilling their needs. With spreadsheet entry, no human needs can be fulfilled.
131  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 03, 2018, 04:23:29 PM
How can we do that for Bitcoin?

mining cost equilibrium is the bottom line value

its its cheaper to mine then buy people mine if its cheaper to buy than mine people buy.

so look for the most effiecient mining cost and you learn the bottom line mining cost which miners wont sell below
you soon learn the number of times the price went below bottomline mining costs ovr many years is negligable because people are not fooilish



But when one buys Bitcoin, one is not buying a specific amount of kwh of energy. If instead of Bitcoin, an egg would be a reward for generating a new block, your argument would sound like this: "mining cost equilibrium is the bottom line value of the egg". And this is obviously foolish.
132  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 03, 2018, 04:22:33 PM
All of the above are valid concerns but hold true for gold and precious metals as well. Do you regard those as scams too?

Millions upon millions of men and women use gold daily to adorn their bodies. We all use electronics that have trace amounts of gold in them. Gold is used in dentistry, medicine, aerospace, and elsewhere. More than two-thirds of newly produced gold is utilized this way. Meaning, gold has utilization capacity and we can use gold to compare it with other goods or services. In that way we can determine whether gold is overpriced or underpriced. For example, we empirically know that a gram of gold has lower utilization capacity than a car, and higher utilization capacity than an egg. So if it is priced above a car, we would immediately know it is overpriced. If it is priced below an egg, we would immediately know it is underpriced. In short, things with utilization capacity are not scams.
133  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Simple and undeniable proof that Bitcoin is a scam on: December 03, 2018, 02:33:56 PM
There is one simple and quick way to determine that Bitcoin is scam, and that is: market price evaluation. In the case of legitimate market instruments, one can easily evaluate whether they are overpriced or underpriced in the market. However, in the case of Bitcoin this is impossible.

Examples:

If a bond with a face value of 1,000 dollars, a coupon of 5% and maturity in 2 years, is priced at 500 we immediately know it is underpriced. If priced at 2,000, we know it is overpriced. If an egg is priced the same as pizza we immediately know it is overpriced because these items are used for satisfying human needs and we empirically know that the utilization capacity of egg is lower that that of pizza. If a guy was granted a loan in the amount of 1000 units of fiat money and used only his Dacia Logan as collateral, but then he manages to buy a brand-new Bugatti Veyron for that money, we immediately know that one unit of his money was overpriced because the utilization capacity of Dacia Logan is lower than that of Bugatti Veyron. And finally, if the book value of a stock is 50 dollars we know that if it is priced at 10 it is underpriced, if priced at 1,000 it is overpriced.

As we can see, in all these examples we have objective, neutral and price independent factors that set up the level for determining whether something is overpriced or underpriced.

How can we do that for Bitcoin? What objective measurements set up the above mentioned level? How would we know if Bitcoin is underpriced or overpriced? Well, it is impossible to know this. Bitcoin is not a company, so it cannot be evaluated through book value or earnings. It is not a debt asset like bonds or fiat currencies, so it cannot be evaluated through face value or collateral. Bitcoin is not good or service, so it cannot be evaluated through utilization capacity. In short, it is impossible in principle to know whether Bitcoin is overpriced or underpriced. And that simply confirms the fact that there is nothing behind Bitcoin. There is no underlying value for evaluating the investment into Bitcoin.

This can be best seen through the comparison with fiat. Although, at first sight, it seems that fiat currencies have no underlying value, this is not true. Why? Well, because today's dollars or euros are debt based assets, i.e. they are products designed for people who want to consume goods and services today and return them in the future. These people are called borrowers. When the banks grant them loans, new dollars or euros are put into cirtualtion, which are then used  for access to the pool of goods and services that gets filled via economic activity of the general population. But since borrowers have to repay their debt with salaries they received for their economic activity - for their contribution to that pool of goods and services, this reduces their purchasing power, i.e. access to the pool. In this way they return goods and services back to the general population. All this is backed by collateral, and in case of borrowers default, their land, cars, houses and other property will end up in the pool of goods and services for the general population to buy with fiat that borrowers put into circulation. Now, are miners - those who put bitcoin into circulation, and in that way also receive goods and services from the general population, obligated to return goods and services back to the general population? No , they are not.  Is bitcoin backed by land, cars, houses and other property of Bitcoin miners? Obviously it is not. So fiat currencies are debt assets backed by collateral and this is their underlying value. Bitcoin on the other hand has no such value, and it is a scam - fake money/asset, designed to extract goods and services from the general population.


That is why one can invest into Bitcoin only on the basis of guesses, opinions, beliefs, or conjectures about its future value. These are then spread through advertisements and propaganda to attract new investors. And this is exactly how investment scams operate - in the absence of underlying value, all kinds of manipulative tactics are used to attract new investors.

Bitcoin is therefore a classical investment scam. It's just that it's well masked as a market instrument.
134  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Why HODLers now pray for banks and institutions to enter if Bitcoin... on: November 30, 2018, 12:02:40 PM
...was supposed to free us from them? Huh
135  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / How is Bitcoin "cheap" if its price is up more then 399 million percent? on: November 26, 2018, 07:15:46 AM
I hear people constantly say that the price of Bitcoin at 5,000 USD or 4,000 USD is "cheap". But, the initial price of Bitcoin was at 0.001 USD. At that time, Bitcoin had absolutely the same properties and function as it has today, which is a payment protocol and means of exchange. But in order to have that function today, one has to pay it 4,000 USD. Meaning, in order to get the same thing, a person has to pay 399 million percent more than what she or he paid in the past. How can a rational person call this "cheap"?! If someone would want to sell you iPhone 3 for 2,000,000,000 USD, would you call this "cheap"!? What is wrong with people today?
136  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Don't buy bitcoin because it won't be fine on: November 23, 2018, 06:08:28 PM
I don't agree with you this is the time to buy bitcoin as much as you can I doubt you cannot get bitcoin on this price in the near future.
By what method did you determine that this is the time to buy if in the past the price of Bitcoin was at 0.001 USD, which is 99.99997 percent lower than current price?  
137  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Don't buy bitcoin because it won't be fine on: November 23, 2018, 05:43:34 PM
... dollars by people who were issued dollar loans for the fulfillment of their loan contracts, ...
Like dollars, you can use bitcoins to repay loans, right? So, Bitcoin is useful.

... But transferability in itself is useless ...

I think this is where your point becomes absurd and moot.

You write that food is useful, yet it is only useful to me if it is transferred to me. The usefulness of food depends on its transferability. Doesn't that make its transferability useful?

Also, you write that loans are what make money useful. Isn't a loan just an agreement to make transfers?

For every dollar that is in circulation there is a borrower who used these dollars to borrow goods and services from the general public which is why he is legally obligated by the loan contract (backed by collateral) to return dollars back to the issuer (bank), and in the process have less purchasing power for the goods and services. This is how he "returns" borrowed goods and services back to the general public. Now, tell me, which Bitcoin miner has the obligation to return goods and services back to the general public, he received from them when he released Bitcoins into the circulation?
138  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Am I pessimistic or is bitcoin still over hyped? on: November 23, 2018, 07:57:38 AM
Disclaimer: I don't own any crypto currently, and haven't done so for a few months now. I left the market in profit, and haven't been able to appropriately value bitcoin since, so haven;t made a new entry yet.

Ok, first of all, I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion on a Bitcoin forum, but here goes.

Every time I first sit down at my computer each day, I trawl through the relevant cryptocurrency related subreddits, news sites and of course this forum. Day in and day out, without missing a heartbeat, I see a flood of incredibly optimistic hype posts relating to crypto and its future success. Whether it's the age old comparison between the bitcoin price a few years ago compared to today to the ever popular debate about it solving all the financial problems in the world, the content never ends! I'm struggling to actually determine if I'm burnt out from all the talk over the years or if its actually a real problem formed by a large following of overly delusional bitcoin fanatics who aggressively believe that bitcoin is the be all and end all solution to all the worlds problems. I can't help but feel the more and more I get involved with crypto, the more and more I feel like it's just a well orchestrated ponzi scheme, that has a large amount of people fooled into believing it's their gateway to a better world and financial freedom.

Does anyone else share similar feelings, or do I need a break from crypto to level my head? I am not saying that bitcoin isn't a revolution, I'm saying that its being pushed by brainwashed people far beyond the extent of its appropriate reach.
Sure it does. My fy "feelings" about Bitcoin are expressed here: https://youtu.be/wQJCL4s2GH0
139  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Don't buy bitcoin because it won't be fine on: November 23, 2018, 06:27:49 AM
This right here is total misinformation, who told you you can't use bitcoin? We have seen thousands of places around the world where bitcoin is being accepted even thousands of bitcoin ATMs are out there so I don't see why anyone should say bitcoin has no use.
Usability is not transferability. When you transferred bitcoin to someone, all that has happened is change of ownership. Usability is utilization of the thing, not its transfer. For .e.g food is utilized by hungry people for the fulfillment of their hunger, dollars by people who were issued dollar loans for the fulfillment of their loan contracts, or picture by art lovers for the  fulfillment of their aesthetic senses. Bitcoin cannot be utilized - only transferred. But transferability in itself is useless - nearly everything that is in existence has the capacity to be transferred between people - from dirt to bitcoin.
140  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Don't buy bitcoin because it won't be fine on: November 13, 2018, 05:18:37 AM
In a few country, you can use bitcoin as currency not just transafer. Its true that many people still not able to use bitcoin in many country but i do believe that in near future, we will able to use bitcoin in many offline merchant and online merchant

It seems you don't actually know the meaning of the word "using". When one passes bitcoin from his address to another person's address, he is not using Bitcoin, but instead, he is transferring Bitcoin. Gold is for example "used" - by millions of women and men everyday to adorn their bodies. Cell phones are "used" - for calls or texting. Dollars are "used" - for settling loan debt. You don't need to sell gold, Dollars or cell phone to a greater fool to make money because these items are used for their inherent qualities, rather than for speculation only. Bitcoin on the other hand cannot be used by anybody anywhere since it is just a number associated with an address. That's why you can only transfer it to a greater fool for speculative purposes.
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