For long-term investments you can buy Ethereum, because eth has bright prospects and tokens that have been successful with many projects that come from token erc-20 or from eth platform.

And of course the latest project there is moneytoken with a bright prospect, I advise you to invest in moneytoken ICO. Please see the reviews and ratings on various review websites, you will find moneytoken is an ICO that has a very glorious prospect

Personally, I like coins with any kind of innovation over Bitcoin.

May not make it a better investment, but it's cool to see what the community is up to.

That's true. I would just implement it into already avaliable products.

Not a good idea. If companies started making their own coins they would be too centralized. Plus Bitcoins value would probably drop significantly.

It's genius!
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.
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Except for the fact that anyone with half a brain can exploit the fuck outta this coin. Even if they have safeguards. Although integration with fitbit would be cool.

'I want to link my Bitcointalk name with BTCJam's. Verification code: f878a940-4c1d-4f9f-b2d2-ae0e669da89c'

Okay, I'll admit that I am very lacking when it comes to financials and such. I actually had to do quite a bit of research on these kinds of topics in order to understand some of the deeper points you have made.

But I'm curious, alright, in Your own words please explain why you think Bitcoin is a Ponzi/Pyramid scheme. (which, lets be honest here, are basically two sides of the same coin)

And I am looking at it from an objective lens, Bitcoin just doesn't fit the mold of a Ponzi scheme. And yes, I have done research into Ponzi schemes, a lot of research, in fact. Ironically enough, while financials themselves don't interest me all that much, financial crimes interest me a lot.

I will concede that it is unlikely Bitcoin will ever find wide adoption as a currency, because Bitcoin has become too renowned for it's trading and volatility. I  just like the idea of Bitcoin, I think it's cool. I personally wouldn't care if Bitcoin ended up hitting $0.01 because I'm in it for the tech. I know that I'm in the minority here, and I know basically 99% of people would leave if that were to ever happen, but hey, I don't give a flying fuck.

I haven't been here long enough to see the earlier alts, but I got here around the time the Altcoin boom started happening, so I know just how worthless a lot of those altcoins were. Some were cool, had interesting innovations, others were bitcoin with a coat of paint. Those were more akin to Pump-And-Dump schemes, not Ponzis (again, very similar in nature) but schemes none-the-less.

And you are, indeed, right when you say that the biggest hurdle for Bitcoin, as a currency, is the price. Who wants to spend $300 on a Bitcoin (unless you're a trader), and like I said, I think dollar parity would be a lot better than what we currently have.

I am listening, and I agree with a lot of your points, like Bitcoin probably not gaining widespread use as a currency. But I still don't see it as a Ponzi scheme, because, if it were, then the Stock market and Commodity market would also be Ponzi schemes... probably... like I said, I don't know much about these things.

Sure, I mean, Bitcoin nowadays is used mostly as a commodity. But that isn't through a fault of design, it was more a fault of consumers. When Bitcoin trading became big business, everyone jumped on the bandwagon and the price shot up, thus getting more people in on the bandwagon. It's a self serving business model, and I find it very disheartening. I would actually be a lot happier if Bitcoin was more or less on par with the dollar. Then it would be more viable as a currency because, as you said, who wants to buy 1 BTC for $1000, unless you plan to make a profit off of it.

The original vision for bitcoin was an admirable one, a currency free from government control. One that couldn't be shut down without shutting down the internet itself. The mindset changed somewhere though, when trading became very profitable, when mining became even more profitable.

You're right when you say that a currency is mostly defined by how much, and how the public adopts it. But just because a lot of people trade Bitcoin as a commodity, doesn't mean it isn't a currency. See the thing about a commodity is that it serves some need or purpose, has some kind of value that can be traded for other things of value. Bitcoin, technically, has no value. It serves no greater purpose than to exist. Sure the ideology behind it and the tech behind is, indeed valuable, but the Bitcoin itself isn't. It's the same as fiat, it's technically worthless, but we all agree it has worth because, why not? Also, another point, commodities can be used as currency. Look at gold for instance, before we had a "gold backed" currency, we literally used gold as a currency, it was still a commodity, but it was also a currency.

And, again, you're right when you say that Bitcoin has a lot of limitations that would limit it's ability to become a mainstream "currency" but just because it has limitations, doesn't mean that it ISN'T a currency.



Hey man, I don't think you're a troll , I think you're just giving your honest opinion as you see fit, and you do actually make some good points. I just happen to disagree with that opinion, which is why I'm still posting here, arguing my stance lol

But to say that it's a Ponzi/Pyramid scheme is a stretch, I could see how people could think of it as a commodity or stock, but as a fraudulent business, I just don't see it personally. 

I'm not going to talk about regulation, as I am pretty clueless when it comes to securities and exchange law.

I might come back to it when I bone up on my reading but, I'll just concede that this sounds pretty fair/correct, however I still disagree that there can ever be a "level playing field.


Now, the meat of your post Spoetnik... the classic "Bitcoin is a ponzi" claim (Which the article you provided does not substantiate)

This one is practically as old as Bitcoin itself. The thing is, Bitcoin is usually thought of as a Ponzi because early adopters are currently rolling piles of Fiat because they cashed out, while us late-adopters are still trying to work our way up to 1 BTC (Me, currently) which is why _Some_ people think Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. Which can be disputed many ways, especially considering that it's not any different than early investors making more money from a startup than late investors, but I digress.

No, the article claims Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme because
1. It isn't a currency and
2. People hoard bitcoins with the hope they will skyrocket in price, and then try to convince other people to buy Bitcoin so the price will go up

See... these two points do not prove that Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme, mainly because they are incorrect or misinformed.

1. Bitcoin is, in fact, a currency.

According to investopedia currency is defined as:


Sure, Bitcoin isn't issued by a government, but it is circulated within the economy, used as a medium of exchange for goods and services, and is the basis of trade. Sounds like it fits all MOST of the criteria.

2. Yes, people hoard Bitcoins, but you know what else people hoard in hopes of becoming rich? Gold. Gold is one of the most valuable things on Earth, has been used as a currency, has backed other forms of currency, and is generally considered to be a solid investment for people.

How is that any different than Bitcoin? And why is Bitcoin considered a Ponzi/Pyramid scheme because people hoard it the same way they hoard gold?

I've hard many people tell me I should invest in gold (and oil. Canadians are HUGE on Oil) but when people do it for Bitcoin it's different? I honestly don't follow the logic there.

After my computer overheated a little while ago I had to shutdown my Altcoin creation service.

So now, armed only with my crappy laptop, I have a new service for you kind altfolk.

I will create a web/mobile wallet for your altcoin.

These web/mobile wallets are written in HTML5 and are completely secure, nothing is even sent to your server.
I'll do everything from setting up the hosting, to designing the website. Just send your Logo's.

Price: 0.5 BTC

PM Me for details.

Heh, no problem. Happens to the best of us

And yeah, stuff can't expand exponentially on Earth (specifically talking about business here) because the population of Earth isn't growing exponentially, which is why market saturation is a such a bad thing for business people.


While I don't know much about the housing crisis (it's a little out of my scope) I think I can answer the first question there.

I don't think he was specifically against regulations, per se, what he was against was governmental oversight coming in and exploiting the currency system. Too much regulation and government oversight can be a serious issue. Just look at the Cyprus incident that happened a few years back, they literally stole money from their citizens bank accounts. That's the kind of stuff that Satoshi was against... at least, as far as I know.



Yowza... that's a fucking sentence LOL

Look, when it comes to personal freedom, a free market is the only way to go. With an over regulated market you just get the same old crap we always get. We probably wouldn't have computers, cell phones, toys, etc. Because the government would swoop in and say "This is clearly bad for you, we need to protect you from it,"  which is why I'm fundamentally against anything other than a free market.

As for your other sentence, yeah, but it also allows for other people to become rich as well. In a limited market economy, the government and and a few "select" businesses get richer, it would be nearly impossible for someone from the "middle class" to join the ranks of the rich in a limited market, in the free market all it takes is a good idea, and good business sense. Plus, free markets give the people the freedom to choose whether or not a product succeeds or fails, not the government.

.

Sure, I mean, I'm a kid, and I used to think the rebel hacker bullshit was the coolest thing in the world. The Matrix really cemented that for me lol

But in all seriousness, Bitcoin isn't really all that different from cash. Sure there aren't as many laws restricting Bitcoins use, but fundamentally there isn't a lot we can to prevent cash from being used the same way.

Sure a lack of regulations can be bad, especially because we are humans, and humans are intrinsically assholes, but with a lack of regulation, the government can't swoop in a take all our Bitcoins, or shut Bitcoin down, or whatever. That's basically the entire point of Bitcoin, a lack of government power/oversight.


See, the thing is, an "even playing field" isn't really even, ever. Especially when talking about money. When it comes down to it, regulations put the power in the hands of the government, a lack of regulations puts *most* of the power in the hands of the rich. The difference here is that in one of those scenarios, the power is fixed and unchanging, in the other, the power is shifting hands basically everyday.

And, yeah, people have been arrested for Bitcoin crimes. Google "First Pirate Savings and Trust" and you'll see what I mean.

But, if you're a socialist/communist (no bias against either of those viewpoints, I just disagree with them) then me arguing with you probably won't convince you of anything.

Also, I just realized that the topic on this thread has shifted dramatically because Spoetnik and I are now arguing about the fundamentals of economy. I just thought that was funny LOL

Unfortunately this is quite true... I've only been back to the whole Bitcoin/altcoin scene a few weeks now and there does seem to be quite a lot less discussion going on here than there used to be.



Oh I have no doubt that I was more than partially responsible for whatever tragedy might happen to befall Altcoins, whether that be total "block death" or simply "price death" either way, I'll still wear the moniker ILoveAltcoins because, well, I do. I love tech stuff and I love playing with code. Bitcoin's just happens to be awesome for that kind of stuff.

Regulations though... i don't know. Kind of defeats the purpose of Bitcoin, no?



Well that's just a plain stupid thing for them to say. Obviously it would have lead to market saturation. I could have told you that back in 2013 when I first made my account that that is where we were headed.


I don't think you're a troll. Sure you've said some trollish things on this thread, but I've never seen a troll display logic and reason, which you have done numerous times during our discussion about Altcoins on this thread, I think you're a pretty okay guy (Or girl, how should I know?  )


Yes, you're right, we're probably going to cycle through Alt explosions every 2-4 years, because that's generally how it works in any market without regulation. The problem is that you cannot introduce regulation into a project that was intended to have little to no regulation at all.

Also, I never claimed I was innocent, and never did I claim to support clonecoins (Sure, I used to, I also get paid to make them for people) I support personal currencies that people my release to the outside world for whatever reason, I don't support the use of people using various Altcoins to make a profit either. However I do support innovation, it's fun, it's cool, it's exciting. Which is why I like altcoins, and why i think the community won't die.

Are you saying the world isn't run by lizard people?

Well there goes my entire world view.


But in all seriousness, I agree that the business aspect of Altcoins is virtually dead, the "intellectual" aspect, however probably won't die, I myself am currently experimenting with altcoins on my own local network.

And, while yes ransomeware is a huge part of the crypto world, I don't believe that that is the sole reason bitcoin still "exists." It might be the reason it never becomes "mainstream" (that and websites like Silkroad) but to say there isn't a dedicated community (and big business) behind bitcoin is just plain wrong.

I wish I could use bitcoin at any of the corner stores around me. Or any business in my city really. That'd be nice.

You'd think that, but back in 2013 a lot of people loved altcoins 

My two worst mistakes were:

1. Not getting into Bitcoin when I first heard about it (it was really, really cheap)

2. Gambling away .5 BTC right before it hit it's peak (~1 month), then selling the other .5 for ~$50

I'd like to believe that I'm smarter now, but I have no idea.

Closed because of computer overheating.

And here I was thinking you were just FUDing xD

But yeah, that's true, Android is basically simply equated the Samsung now. It actually pisses me off a little.

Wasn't Apple going to release a "coin" of sorts called iMoney? or something like that. However they would have a hard time bringing down Bitcoin, but building it into the iPhone, or Windows, or whatever product a big company has that is used by _most_ people, would cause a major disruption in the crypto market, plus it wouldn't have the stigma other Alts have because people would be like "Oh it's made by Apple, they don't deal drugs so it must be better than that Drugcoin thing" or something like that.

Just a question though: Why not build a better coin, one that would "trump" the other coins? Hire a dev and wait till the clones slow down, then innovate and release. It'll help with the adoption if it's simpler than Bitcoin, and will help the niche. Just an idea.

Jesus man, when you aren't screaming at us for defending Alts you make some really good points 

You're right when you say that opinions within the niche are virtually worthless when trying to gain mainstream attention. Most people only about bitcoin for one of two reasons:

1. That one "The Good Wife" episode
2. The silk road

Which is s shame, really. Bitcoin is so much more than people buying drugs online. All cryptocurrencies have that stigma as an illegal online drug-dealer currency. Hell, the only reason bitcoin is anywhere near the mainstream is because of its price.

But, is pandering such a problem when it comes to a currency like BTC or any of the alts? I mean sure, it's pretty much more secure then any financial institution around today, but the complexity does outweigh that. If a currency like BTC were to come along that was dead simple, simpler then even online banking, it would probably be gaining traction hand over fist. The issue is that because Bitcoin and a lot of alts are such large technological innovations, complexity is the name of the game. But it's not as if it's without "hope" if Bitcoin can manage to break the stigma of a drug-currency (which stuff like weedcoin doesn't help with) and "dumb" the UI and process down, it will probably see more "mainstream" use. I know it's a lot of speculation,  but I'm not saying it's going to happen soon,  it just needs to happen. We'll most likely see something similar in an Alt first, the problem is that Alts have a worse stigma than Bitcoin.

Sure, we have some large losses (mostly on the exchange rates of Alts) but people who are trying to simplify the process are the people who are going to open up the new "era (so to speak)" of Cryptos. They may not be making a lot of traction right now, but the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step.

I agree with you on all of these. When I was a noob I had no idea what the hell was going on, the chain took forever to download, the addresses were incredibly long and nigh-on-impossible to remember. If it weren't for the fact that I was so fascinated by these kinds of currency at the time I would never have stayed the course, and of course, as altcoins are based on Bitcoin, they suffer the same issues (besides the sketchy IPO's of new coins coming onto the market. Strictly a "new alt" problem.)

I also agree that in order for it to become "mainstream" it will need to be "dumbed down."

You're right that Cryptos are a niche product, at least for the time being they are. There isn't anything wrong with that, but expanding beyond a niche is hard.

The thing is, though, that I have no doubts in my mind that clever people will be able to overcome these problems through clever programming. We are already seeing services that allow you to make your address more "readable" and simpler, easier to understand wallet clients are coming out every other day. The only issue is, is the fact that most people in Alts are only in it for the money, they either trade it for a profit or pump it for a profit. There are some incredibly interesting and innovative Alts out there that make leaps and bounds in the crypto space, but for each of those there are a dozen clones, there's nothing wrong with that per-se, but it can cause a stigma to rise up.

You make some good points, and do point out some flaws in the altcoin space, but I don't think that that is a reason to abandon it wholeheartedly, maybe just don't invest a ton of money into it, that might even save them in the long run.