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781  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Isnt it a fatal flaw that bitcoin can be manipulated by someone with 51% of MHs on: July 18, 2011, 12:49:22 AM
It's about probabilities - 51% is just the probabilistic place where the shift of power takes place, it's not like you're at 50% and you can't do shit and a legitimate miner goes offline then BAM 51%, you own everything. There's no dramatic shift in ease of attacks at any point - more hashing power means more chance for it to work.
Actually, that's not quite true. If an attacker manages to achieve over 50% of the hash power of the network indefinitely, they will eventually manage to get the longest blockchain and rewrite the transactions they want to with probability one. Anything less and they're very unlikely to succeed. Rewriting transactions within a finite timespan is harder and requires a larger proportion of hashing power, of course.

(Also, double spending isn't the only issue. If you control a large enough proportion >50% of hashing power you can stop anyone else from mining blocks and control which transactions actually get through.)
782  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Would killing the minimum wage help? on: July 18, 2011, 12:36:45 AM
It just as much qualifies as work as manual labor. If not, why not?
If you earn money from manual labour, you're getting money from providing your skills and labour in order to do work; what you have to offer comes from you. If you instead earn money from pre-existing wealth, you're using your control of assets external to yourself that are required to do productive work in order to skim some money off the top. What makes you a better person to decide how those assets should be used than anyone else, such that you should be able to profit from controlling that decision?
783  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Official Open Source FPGA Bitcoin Miner (Smaller Devices Now Supported!) on: July 17, 2011, 08:59:47 PM
Great work, on my EP3C25C6 Board the Device utilisation is reduced by approx 20% and the Fmax increases from 87MHz to 103Mhz but maybe there is still some room. I did some compile cycles i get different results and the difference is substantial. 10 Mhz  or so.
I could verify that it works, by erarning shares.

For the EP2C35C8 i am able to change LOOP_LOG2 from 3 to 2 with no change for Fmax. The test with the real hardware isn't done yet  but maybe tomorrow.
Glad to hear a success story!

Is the toplevel compatible with the serial toplevel?
Unfortunately, some manual merging of changes is probably going to be required because both this and serial support modify fpgaminer_top.v. Shouldn't be too difficult to do in theory though, especially now that teknohog's merged his serial code with an older version of my modificatiosn.

And going OT, could someone produce a bitstream for the EP1C80 for me?
I wasn't even aware there was such a device...
784  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: First commercial ASIC miner specifications and pre-launch on: July 17, 2011, 08:37:32 PM
Quote
Because of the large quantity of requests, in order to be elegible for ordering a machine you need to send 15 BTC to 16BYKtRZDT6vsbpYmfcM3EKStDAbrq...


That part is perhaps better than the "we chose to keep our identities hidden". LOL
It gets even better if you noticed:
Quote
and while we could do the mining by ourselves and still profit a lot, our purpose is not to challenge the government ( Bitcoin in the Popular Republic of China is illegal and manipulating large quantities of currencies is not even tolerated for foreign citizen without  permissions, reason for which we chose to keep our identities hidden at the moment )
So Bitcoins are illegal there and that's why they don't want to run the miners themselves, but you need to pay them Bitcoins in order to reserve one. Right.
785  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Modular FPGA Miner Hardware Design Development on: July 17, 2011, 06:43:43 PM
The 8mil line width and line spacing are a problem, though: I cannot get an 8mil wire between two pads of the FPGAs: the clearance is too small. This problem can be solved by using more vias and routing everything on the other layers, but is is less than ideal.
Out of interest, is 6mil trace + 6mil space good enough? That's what Laen's PCB group order for hobbyists provides, and supposedly someone's done a PCB with this pitch of BGA on that service. Of course, the turnaround times on that are probably less than ideal, especially if you're not in the US.

  • What does pcbcart mean when they ask for the "Min. Annular Ring"? The width of the ring on one side ((D_via-D_hole)/2) or the sum of the width on both sides of the hole (D_via-D_hole)?
I'm pretty sure annular ring is generally defined as the width of the copper ring on each side, so D_via = D_hole + 2 * annular ring.
786  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: 1 BTC bounty for solving my JTAG problem on: July 17, 2011, 12:53:19 AM
Yeah, I just checked. The pin cycling behavior that I described is what's going on.

Both your edits are accounted for, too   Smiley
Curious. I'm all out of ideas, so it's good to see fpgaminer is here.
787  Economy / Economics / Re: give me 5 reasons why a shop should charge more on BTC that $ on: July 17, 2011, 12:49:20 AM
Yes, they are less than 2-3%. And please see the 1st point... the vendor can receive the payment in USD, they need not convert anything.
Bit-pay have to convert the bitcoins to USD somehow, and they apparently charge an unspecified fee for doing so (plus apparently the vendor doesn't get the payment from them instantly if they want it in USD).
788  Other / CPU/GPU Bitcoin mining hardware / Re: 1 BTC bounty for solving my JTAG problem on: July 16, 2011, 11:49:27 PM
It's interesting that it recognizes the chip as an EP3C80.
If I'm reading the Cyclone III and IV handbooks correctly, the EP3C80 and EP4CE75 have exactly the same JTAG ID, so that's not surprising.

I can also step through the JTAG state machine to see if the JTAG header pins cycle. TDO and TMS cycle from 0 to ~2.5V as expected. TDI is stuck low. TCK is stuck high.
This seems odd. Are you sure you're measuring the right pins? It's getting late, but I can't see how TDO could be toggling if TCK is stuck...

Edit: Also, I assume you've pulled nCE to GND like the diagram instructs.
Edit 2: Oh, and pulled nCONFIG high, either through whatever non-JTAG method of loading bitstreams you've got or directly if you don't have one.
789  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Modular FPGA Miner Hardware Design Development on: July 16, 2011, 09:50:09 PM
As far as i understand the Xilinx documentation, we are free to connect all I/O pins not needed (almost all in our case exept for JTAG,I2C and Spi) either to Ground or VCC (2.5V).
Leaving them unconnected would increase the chance of noise.
I think Xilinx's tools default to creating bitstreams that pull down unconnected pins to ground. Not sure what happens if you try and connect them to a different voltage externally, but finding out probably wouldn't be the best idea.
790  Economy / Speculation / Re: Skeptical of the skeptics... on: July 16, 2011, 08:50:15 PM
The sum total of the bitcoin economy is all that is for sale, including USD.  From the point of view of an owner of bitcoins, they are all just products being offered for sale.

At present the bitcoin economy is heavily weighted towards sale of paper with presidents on.  It makes no difference; the economy is flowing, and as long as that sustains, bitcoin will survive.
I don't think that's a terribly useful measure of the size of the economy. In any case, the problem isn't just that most of the Bitcoin "economy" involves buying bits of paper with presidents on, it's that people are getting Bitcoins by selling bits of paper with presidents on in the hope of buying more bits of paper with presidents on with them shortly after, and that's just not sustainable.
791  Economy / Speculation / Re: Why does it keep falling ? on: July 16, 2011, 07:35:37 PM
it's not a losing position unless your electricity costs now more than you can get for your coins now.  There's a reason why we account for capital costs and expenses separately.
I think you might be suffering from a misconception. The amount miners are risking by holding onto their bitcoins isn't their electricity costs, it's how much they could make if they sold immediately because that's the amount they potentially lose out on. (This is a fairly common fallacy; from an economic perspective it's irrational and no-one should act this way, but people don't act the way economists think they should.)
792  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin Loans and Lending; The Weakness in The Bitcoin Economy on: July 16, 2011, 05:28:15 PM
We pretty much know for a fact that the USD is inflationary, with a long-term inflation rate of 3%. So, why isn't USD worth 0 now? (answer is because we don't calculate the value of money to infinity; only to the time we actually need to use it/invest is/repay it)
Exactly. This argument doesn't work for inflation because you can invest the money now in something that will hopefully give you good returns, so it doesn't matter that it would eventually be worth nothing if you just sat on it. The problem with deflation is that just sitting on your money is actually a realistic scenario.

As for next year, the $100 IS a discount on the $120 from the following year. This is how the time value of money works.
Except that the problem is that if we had price deflation, no one will be able to charge $120 to buy the product in a year's time, because the money would be worth more by then and that'll force prices down, not up.

But they are not buying money, they are buying product. If I carve something out of wood, and the cost is just the wood and a knife, I won't care if you pay me less for it a few months from now, if the amount I get has the same value as it did two months ago. That's why my price would decrease.
Ironically, the thing you're not quite grasping here is the time value of money. Receiving 995 BTC now is worth more than receiving 995 BTC in two months time, because having it now encompasses both the possibility of having it in two months' time and the possibility of spending it in the meantime. This is still true if deflation means that 995 BTC is worth more in two months' time, because you can take advantage of this even if you're paid it now. So if you're willing to sell delivery of some good now in return for 995 BTC later, you should be even more happy to do it for 995 BTC right now.

I agree. The assumption that predictable deflation is not built into the price leads to the conclusion that the price is too low, regardless of how high it is. Therefore, the assumption is false. Predictable deflation is built into the price. That's kind of my point.
No. My point is that predictable deflation cannot be built into the price, because the only rational price would be infinite (at least in this oversimplified scenario). More interestingly, look at what happens when everyone's only mostly certain about future deflation: the effects of predictable deflation on the price cancel out and price deflation occurs at exactly the same rate as it would have anyway. (This is again slightly oversimplified: in practice future expectations should help smooth out the rate of price deflation, but over the long term it has no effect.)
793  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin Shrinking - The Long View on: July 16, 2011, 04:42:26 PM
Then they can leave negative feedback.
There might be slight practical issues with logging on to Tor from a prison cell.
794  Economy / Economics / Re: give me 5 reasons why a shop should charge more on BTC that $ on: July 16, 2011, 04:05:52 PM
2) Bitcoin removes the credit card fees of 2-3%
Have you calculated the fees required to convert Bitcoins to some currency that can pay the bills? I suggest you try it sometime...
795  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Official Open Source FPGA Bitcoin Miner (Smaller Devices Now Supported!) on: July 16, 2011, 11:17:46 AM
By the way, anyone running with LOOP_LOG2=1, 2 or 3 might find the experimental partial-unroll-opt branch useful - it reduces the resource usage somewhat. Unfortunately it also breaks LOOP_LOG2=4 and greater and hasn't been tested on actual FPGAs.
796  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Ponzi scheme argument on: July 15, 2011, 01:54:30 PM
Quote
However, Apple does not pay dividends. How does Person A or Person B make money from investing in Apple? At some point someone is going to have to buy $10 worth of Apple to pay A or B. That is A and B need a third party to realize the value of their investment.
Except that because Apple make a profit without paying a dividend, their total assets increase and your shares represent the same proportion of a bigger pie, so they're worth more. In practice shares are generally valued at a premium to assets, representing the expectation that the company is expected to make future profits. You could slice up the company and divide up the value of the assets between the shareholders, and this does sometimes happen when one isn't using its assets efficiently, but generally it's worth more as a going concern.

For example, there was an interesting period where Acorn Group plc, who created the ubiquitous ARM processors that are now used pretty much everywhere and spun this off as a joint subsidary with Apple, had shares in ARM worth more than their entire market capitalization. Acorn Group was bought and split up as a direct result of this.

Bitcoins are different in that they're just numbers in a database; there's no underlying assets and certainly no-one doing useful business using said assets. Or to quote another /.er:

Quote
Bitcoin is like a stock market with a single stock, for a company with no assets, and paying no dividends. Would you rush to pour your money into that?

Also, an important distinction between the two is that Apple's value is not simply "what it does", it's that they can take their assets and use them in a way that makes money. Bitcoin's value, on the other hand, lies solely in the fact that you can find someone else willing to pay you for the bitcoins either in fiat money or in goods. The two are not quite the same.
797  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Official Open Source FPGA Bitcoin Miner (Smaller Devices Now Supported!) on: July 14, 2011, 11:27:31 PM
That's my suspicion as well, however I failed to figure out how to configure this, didn't have time to search thoroughly. Do you have a hint?
"HDL Options" section of the XST configuration, options "Shift register extraction" and "Shift register minimum size". The default is to create shift registers as short as 2 stages, which is a bit daft. (I assume you've already figured out this quirk of ISE, but for some reason you have to select fpgaminer_top in the hierarchy before it'll show you the list of process steps and let you configure them.)

This probably matters most for Spartan-6; other Xilinx FPGAs don't seem to have such annoying limitations on adders.
798  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Official Open Source FPGA Bitcoin Miner (Smaller Devices Now Supported!) on: July 14, 2011, 10:29:50 PM
That might explain it. Since SHA-256 is almost entirely addition logic, then that means half the Spartan-6 chips are useless. But I couldn't even get 64 rounds fit on my LX150. Maybe the CLBs are ordered in such a way that it was forced to route around the useless ones, causing massive routing delays? If so, padding with registers between rounds might fix that (as others have suggested). If those useless CLBs can't be used for anything else, might as well pack 'em with a bunch of registers.

It could also be a combination of poor routing design, and having to route around the useless CLBs.
My personal suspicion is that support for this particular Spartan-6 misfeature in ISE is buggy and badly tested; I'm fairly sure that at one point I was trying to cram on more adders than there were even SLICEM/Ls it could fit them in and it tried to map them anyway without realising this was impossible. It also doesn't seem to report usage of this particular resource in any useful way. It's possible that their routing design is also bad too, of course. I recently upgraded to ISE 13.2 and its behaviour in this department seems to have changed quite a bit from ISE 13.1, though I'm not sure if this is entirely for the better...

Edit: Think I may have been wrong about this; it's a bit under the maximum number of SLICEM/Ls available in theory.

Also, have you tried disabling shift register inferrence or turning up the threshold for it? Those compete for the same resources as adders.

A great first number! I'm very interested in the Kintex-7 series, and hope they are made available soon. I'll be checking their booth at CES next year for sure  Cheesy Think they'll sell me a devkit for Bitcoins?  Tongue
Heheheheheheh. They certainly seem impressive, though I'll wait until someone's actually submitting shares with one, or at least until they're actually available for sale, before I actually believe it ;-).

Edit 2: 200 MHash/sec, though that increased total build time to over an hour. I have a feeling this isn't even pushing the tools slightly yet...
799  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Official Open Source FPGA Bitcoin Miner (Smaller Devices Now Supported!) on: July 14, 2011, 09:03:59 PM
By the way - and this is probably what I get for not reading data sheets - I only just realized that the Virtex-5 and Virtex-6 series don't suffer from the annoying "only half the CLBs have fast carry logic" restriction of Spartan-6 FPGAs. Guess that could partly explain why Spartan-6 FPGAs have so much trouble with this design...

It appears ISE has no trouble at all fitting a 150 MHash/sec design on the Kintex-7 XC7K70T either (as in, it reaches that clock without even trying hard) - though note that this is an untested tweaked design and obviously I don't have the FPGA to run it on anyway. Kintex-7 is supposed to basically be a much cheaper 28nm equivalent of the Virtex-6 series.
800  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Modular FPGA Miner Hardware Design Development on: July 14, 2011, 08:39:26 PM
In a weaker version of that sense, the MSP430 is also "unbrickable": as long as you don't touch the default BSL and as long as your code leaves the write-protect alone, everything is fine. The problem is that an inexperienced user (or someone who types command-lines on autopilot) may easily reflash the BSL.
AVRs are definitely the strong version though; they have hardware write-protect for the bootloader that as I understand it can't be overridden without connecting up a programming cable, and neither can anything else that would prevent you from booting from said bootloader. At least that's the theory...

Actually, you shifted what I wanted to say where a bit: I meant that while the current FPGA can do 3.3V, I am not sure how many others can do so.
Ah, sorry. Well, Cyclone IV and earlier can, as can Spartan-6 obviously. Kintex-7 and Cyclone V will apparently also support 3.3V IO on at least some pins, though I'm not sure if they do for the configuration pins...
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