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421  Economy / Speculation / Re: Who is so stupid to sell so many bitcoins in that low prices?? on: October 05, 2014, 08:45:45 PM
What is so hard to understand? Bitcoin currently spends $500 million per year on PoW mining, so without inflow of new capital, the price of Bitcoin will perpetually decline, due to value being sucked out of the eco-system by PoW miners.

If it were not PoW it would be "Bitcoin currently spends $500 million per year on <insert other security mechanism here>"

If it did not cost a lot, anyone could pay cheap prices to either destroy Bitcoin or get all of the bitcoins.

Proof of Stake systems are proven to be more secure, and cost a lot less (nearly nothing).
422  Economy / Speculation / Re: Who is so stupid to sell so many bitcoins in that low prices?? on: October 05, 2014, 05:43:56 PM
But you know that you don't have a roi in that prices. So why they don't just unplug the machines? Is better to keep selling until all their ecosystem to collapse? In my opinion this is still a stupid action.

Why would they unplug the machine if they could still extract value out of the Bitcoin eco-system? As long as they could earn more than electricity cost, they will mine and sell in hope for ROI. They will only unplug if electricity cost > mining income.
423  Economy / Speculation / Re: Who is so stupid to sell so many bitcoins in that low prices?? on: October 05, 2014, 05:40:16 PM
But when you sell when the prices in a day is about 50% that is a fool action especially in bitcoin ecosystem with that volatility when you know that everything can change in days or in a hour.
Is fool action to sell low and buy high

Miners didn't buy high, they have invested in the hardware already, they will sell at ANY price in hope for ROI. Also electricity bill has to be paid, miners aren't going to pay these with additional funds out of pocket.
424  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: POW vs POS? on: October 05, 2014, 05:36:32 PM

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already.

doesn't need to be 51%.  plus I can sell coins/shares and simply publish my private keys afterward.  now anyone has those keys at that point in time.  

What's the point of publishing the key afterwards? the stake is already gone, you can't attack with non-existent stake.
425  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: POW vs POS? on: October 05, 2014, 05:33:38 PM
Again you have to give me more detail, links maybe? I'm not aware of any plans to devalue stakes.

Why do you need the evidence, DPoS is immune to attacks, right? I'm surprised you are unaware, aren't you a delegate? It is happening soon as well, as early as 1Q 2015!
I would rather have you reflect and think critically about security rather than handing you the details on a silver plate. Some self reflection about security is just what you need
and if I hand over the links I fear you will just rationalize them.

I am not spreading FUD either and if you are willing to wager a friendly BTC I can provide the evidence for you to back up my statements.

So far you have presented me zero proof of your claim, so I would just have to take it as a rumor then. Your argument is therefore invalid, because you have created yet another imagined scenario that doesn't exist in reality. I know you have a vivid imagination from prior discussion.
426  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: POW vs POS? on: October 05, 2014, 05:32:24 PM

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already. Your theory is a imagined scenario, that can not be done in reality, that's why it has never happened in reality.
427  Economy / Speculation / Re: Who is so stupid to sell so many bitcoins in that low prices?? on: October 05, 2014, 05:30:48 PM
What is so hard to understand? Bitcoin currently spends $500 million per year on PoW mining, so without inflow of new capital, the price of Bitcoin will perpetually decline, due to value being sucked out of the eco-system by PoW miners.
428  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: POW vs POS? on: October 05, 2014, 01:47:36 PM
Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?

Are you unaware that many large BTSX/PTS stakeholders, and Invictus developers are currently right now negotiating a marketing affiliate plan with banks which will be likely funded either with another direct or indirect method of devaluation of everyone's stake ?

Again you have to give me more detail, links maybe? I'm not aware of any plans to devalue stakes.
429  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: POW vs POS? on: October 05, 2014, 01:35:19 PM
You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

What if the stakeholders attacked their own currency unintentionally by falsely believing their actions would benefit their currency? Is this not a real possibility that is unfolding itself right now with Bitshares which may happen as soon as 1Q 2015 with a very real marketing plan that is being negotiated with certain banks?

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?
430  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: POW vs POS? on: October 05, 2014, 01:27:58 PM
PoW coins are slowing going out of fashion it seems.

All the new coins are PoS based and some are doing quite well.

This naturally makes sense, PoW alts can't properly secure itself anymore because of either Scrypt Asics, botnets, or simply not having the hashing power of Bitcoin. I expect many PoW alts to start failing and continue decreasing in market share because of this. Look how litecoin just recently lost number 2 in market cap -- http://coinmarketcap.com/

The exception to this are coins that depend upon the security of bitcoin blockchain like coloredcoins , counter-party, mastercoin, and namecoin.

There's nothing to stop a well funded and determined attacker to attack Bitcoin's PoW network in the same fashion, it's still only cost 10% of Bitcoin marketcap to attack. That's extremely cheap compared to buying 51% stake in a PoS eco-system.
431  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: POW vs POS? on: October 05, 2014, 01:23:14 PM
PoW = Spend a lot of money on computers and electricity to get coins through at a 98% predictable rate as you join a good and big pool.

PoS = Spend money directly on coins and buy them at a 100% predictable rate and not waste money on computers and electricity.

Both have block chains.  

PoW usually just have a blockchain and little esle.  Sometimes 2nd party platforms can piggyback on PoW
 
PoS has a ton of options and services in addition to the traditional blockchain
The problem with PoS is that if you buy a lot of coins then you could attack the network without anyone knowing, sell the coins plus your ill gotten gains and the scam coin will be damaged once it is realized that an attack took place. With PoW you need to invest in machines that mine so if you attack the network you can sell your ill gotten gains but the future earnings potential from your machine will be greatly reduced so you would have an incentive to not attack the network

I have heard this said before and a lot of people talk about it in theory, but I wondering has the theory ever been put to the test.  

I know for a fact many PoW coins have been taken over and destroyed by a malicious actor, but I have still yet to hear about a single PoS coin being harmed in the way described.  And this is in a world where sooooooo many fake PoS coins are released just for pumps.  Can anybody confirm a real world example of a PoS that was actually "51%" attacked by a person that bought a bunch of coins and then used them to attack the network?  If so, I would definitely like to read more about it.  

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money. Well if you do, then the rest of stakeholders would thank you for it, you just made their stake 100% more valuable by destroying your own stake, because the attacking stake will soon be blocked by community consensus and rendered unusable forever.

On the other hand, with the PoW mining farms, nearly nothing can be done to stop them from attacking any PoW network that they can overwelm with their hardware, as you already seen in the death of many PoW altcoins.
432  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A future of high transaction fees? on: October 05, 2014, 01:06:01 PM
Fewer miners means longer confirmation times.

This statement is completely wrong. Confirmation times do not depend on the number of miners or their hashing power.

Not completely wrong, confirmation time will be slowed until the next difficulty adjustment. If the adjustment is drastic, confirmation time might be slowed for over a month. This slowness of confirmation time is well observed among altcoins, sometime they go months without a single confirmation due to sudden drop from high difficulty to nearly no difficulty.

The same thing will happen to Bitcoin, if for example the price suddenly drops to $10. PoW mining has many weaknesses like these.
433  Economy / Speculation / Re: This is why the price of bitcoin is dropping on: October 05, 2014, 01:00:15 PM
But the localbitcoins dont have much different prices. The people prices are updated there much slower, but they follow the exchange prices with some delay

lol no...
simply, no..

large majority of people on localbitcoins are not selling at a loss. and for the couple people putting in stupidly low orders because they are sheep following an exchange. they deserve the losses they are making

Did you get anyone to actually believe your nonsense? why would localbitcoin trade at a difference price? everywhere I see, the localbitcoin price pretty much follows the exchange price. Because if localbitcoin trade at a different price, buyers would just go buy on a exchange, instead of paying 25% more to buy at your imagined localbitcoin price. Also if your localbitcoin price of $400 is true, then sellers would just buy at exchange at $310, and go back to local and sell at $400, which will soon equalize the price difference due to the arbitrage. Therefore, it's impossible for localbitcoin to maintain a price 25% more than exchange price.
434  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How Could Bitcoin Evolve? on: October 05, 2014, 01:58:29 AM
Bitcoin rarely checkpoints.  PoS checkpoints every block. Bitcoin is phasing out checkpoints  completely in next upgrade.

Thanks for reminding me why you are on my ignore list, you like to blatantly lie about PoS facts to suit your own argument. Even when I already told you, a pure PoS system, like Bitshares, has no checkpoints, you still lie about PoS needing checkpoints.
Did Bitshares change from DPoS to PoS?

DPoS is a subset of PoS
The way you keep changing around your terms it's impossible to have a coherent discussion with you. You just keep spreading your lies about PoS. Back to ignore.

How hard is it to understand DPoS is an implementation of the PoS concept? come on, even someone like you should be able to understand DPoS is a subset of PoS?

You don't even have to listen to me, since Daniel Larimer says so himself:
http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/
read: "This paper introduces a new implementation of proof of stake"

Therefore, you are just confused, and your question "Did Bitshares change from DPoS to PoS?" doesn't make any sense, since Bitshares is a PoS system, and more specifically a DPoS system. Just like Bitcoin is a currency, and more specifically a crypto-currency. Do you understand now?
435  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Virus detected in the blockchain on: October 05, 2014, 01:48:30 AM
I'm not sure what the right forum for this is, here, or in the Technical forum, but I figure it'll get read more here, so I'm posting here...

My computer (Windows 7 64 bit) was acting strange so I just ran a full virus scan.  It detected two viruses and one of them just happened to be in the blockchain.  It was detected in Bitcoin\Blocks\blk00129.dat.  Those of you running full nodes, especially on Windows, this would be a good time to run a virus scanner.  Avast caught this, I can't comment on any others.

Then your virus scanner setting must be wrong, don't scan all files, just executable files.
436  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How Could Bitcoin Evolve? on: October 05, 2014, 01:34:10 AM

That is fine, I can see very well in this thread, how angry the PoW miner shills get when I try to expose their leeching scheme.

This is absurd, miners aren't making much if any profits. Most miners are taking losses. You would be more honest to suggest that ASIC manufacturers and the clouds they sell, and both green power and dirty power sources are profiting.

Who knows what interest the PoW miner shills represent, it might be pools, or ASIC hardware vendors or even electric companies.

They are a interest group, representing PoW interests. Miners are definitely part of that group, whether they are making a profit or not is irrelevant. They can be unprofitable, and still sucking value out of Bitcoin, it just means the distribution of profits within the PoW interest group is unbalanced. They are still sucking value out of Bitcoin nonetheless.

You don't need to be in an "interest group" to think that PoW is the superior solution. I don't mine, or run a pool, or sell electricity, or ASIC devices, or anything of the sort. I just think the alternatives to PoW (namely PoS) are shit and not real solutions.
PoS is certainly not a solution to changing the mining algo. From what I can see regarding the potential choices for ways to mine, PoW is the best. In theory there is a better way to mine bitcoin, however it would need to involve the miner having to spend some level of resources to mine so they have "skin in the game" when they mine.

Actually just the contrary, PoW miners has ZERO skin in the game, they don't need to own any Bitcoin to mine the Bitcoin PoW network, they are not stakeholders of the Bitcoin eco-system. They could easily switch their ASIC machines to mine something more profitable, if the opportunity exists. All they are interested in is sucking value out of the most profitable eco-system, to enrich themselves (miners/pools/hardware vendor/electric companies)

PoS miner are by definition, stake holders in the eco-system. The bigger the miner, the bigger his stake in the system, and therefore the bigger the interest to protect the system. This is why naturally, PoS eco-system has never been attacked, even the tiniest PoS altcoin has not been successfully attacked. Because no one is stupid enough to destroy their own stake and wealth.
437  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How Could Bitcoin Evolve? on: October 05, 2014, 01:29:49 AM
Bitcoin rarely checkpoints.  PoS checkpoints every block. Bitcoin is phasing out checkpoints  completely in next upgrade.

Thanks for reminding me why you are on my ignore list, you like to blatantly lie about PoS facts to suit your own argument. Even when I already told you, a pure PoS system, like Bitshares, has no checkpoints, you still lie about PoS needing checkpoints.
Did Bitshares change from DPoS to PoS?

DPoS is a subset of PoS
438  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How Could Bitcoin Evolve? on: October 05, 2014, 01:22:27 AM
Bitcoin rarely checkpoints.  PoS checkpoints every block. Bitcoin is phasing out checkpoints  completely in next upgrade.

Thanks for reminding me why you are on my ignore list, you like to blatantly lie about PoS facts to suit your own argument. Even when I already told you, a pure PoS system, like Bitshares, has no checkpoints, you still lie about PoS needing checkpoints.

Now yes Peercoin has checkpoints, but they are fading out checkpoints now too, just as they are fading out PoW and having PoS taking over the network, coincidence? why don't they need checkpoints for PoS? oh yes, because ONLY PoW network needs checkpoints.

Checkpoints are basically insurance policies, no PoS network really need it, but some PoS altcoin implemented it just to be safe. Unlike smaller PoW networks, that basically requires checkpointing to even have a chance surviving against the rampant 51% attacks.
439  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bottom will be 230-270 on: October 04, 2014, 11:54:11 PM
You don't get it, there's no bottom. There's a perpetual PoW mining expense that is sucking value out of Bitcoin. As long as no new money coming in, Bitcoin will perpetually fall in value. So you better wish there's new money coming in to boost the price.
440  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How Could Bitcoin Evolve? on: October 04, 2014, 10:42:44 PM
pretty sure the core devs all agree, pow is the only proven secure method to achieve distributed consensus.

How could they not? since they are entrenched in the PoW mindset, and is confrontational when even someone mentions PoS. But the reality has PROVEN, that PoS is more secure and more community friendly (due to not having to transfer value out of the eco-system).

what proof do you speak of?

1. Many PoW altcoin has been 51% attacked, to the point the Dev just given up fighting back. Zero PoS altcoin has been successfully attacked so far.

2. In the altcoin competition, the PoS eco-systems has naturally risen to the top, on coinmarketcap right now, #4,#6,#7 are PoS, and #10 is a subsidiary of #4.

#1 Bitcoin, #3 Litecoin has early mover advantage, #2 Ripple is a scam that is non-PoW and non-PoS. I expect Litecoin will soon lose to a PoS eco-system in less than a year.

If Bitcoin keeps PoW, it'll be next, in 3-4 years time probably. This is because PoS re-invest in the community and eco-system, PoW transfers value out of the community and eco-system, into the pockets of hardware vendor/electric company.

Proof of Stakes rely on central checkpointing, (and therefore aren't
distributed. )  And they are vulnerable to nothing at stake
attacks.  

Perhaps PoS haven't been successfully attacked but
I don't believe it is scalable.  




Nope, just the contrary, PoW relies on centralized checkpointing, Bitcoin has checkpointing. PoS does not need centralized checkpointing because it's so hard to attack it, Peercoin is now fading out the checkpointing, because PoS has taken over the network, and PoW is fading out. BitsharesX, a pure PoS system, has no checkpointing.

NAS attack against a PoS system is pretty much fictional. When I asked why it haven't happened yet in reality, Gavin's reply was basically "people might not have figured out a good way to attack or built the tools to attack it yet". Well I'll believe it when I see it, so far I haven't seen it happen in reality, though you are welcome to change my mind, go initiate a NAS attack on a PoS system, see how far you could get.

I could attack any smaller PoW altcoin right now, with just a handful of ASIC machines. The weakness of PoW security is PROVEN, and exists in reality. All the PoS attack theories are UNPROVEN, and doesn't exist in reality.

So I'm not sure why Bitcoin is sticking to a proven insecure system, with $500 million current annual expense. But not adopt a system that have no security issue in reality, and has nearly no expense.
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