Sounds legit. How do I invest in this beautiful project that'll make me millionaire over week?  |
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If there's one thing that this thread is making clear is that the smart contracts are a really new thing for most of us. The entire concept and how it should be conducted hasn't crystallised yet. This is an announcement thread on a bitcointalk forum. So these are the people that are the most in the loop. Outside there's a world where most people haven't even heard of cryptocurrency and think that Bitcoin is a video game or something. The idea of complete strangers being able to negotiate any type of deal without any form of middle men or government protection is just utterly alien to them. So I think some humility is required here. Nobody has figured escrows out entirely. We don't know what the ideal escrow amounts are for each type of contract. There are many possible trades and deals possible in this world and they probably all require their own scheme. There are three variables in a smart contract: - Amount - Symmetry in the collateral of each party - Time (the optional limit after which the collateral is automatically destroyed) These variables may be entirely different for a large gold trader, an online freelancer or a guitar merchant. That's what fascinates me about this technology. Sure it has potential to be worth a dollar per BAY eventually but that's just lame speculation. What's really interesting is that we have barely begun to scratch the surface between the game theory behind all this. We don't know what people respond to best, we don't know what are the best and the worst scenarios and there's probably also a meta-game of contracts arising depending on the level of trust in the markets. I can't be the only one who's excited about this. --- EDIT: For example, do you realise that the time extension on a smart contract also makes for a less riskful way of trading? I'm not sure if it's possible yet, (it certainly wouldn't be difficult to implement) but rather than burning the coins after expiration, the contract could also simply release the coins again. This means that you won't ever lose your escrow, but what you will lose is liquidity. So in the situation where a deal goes bust and either one of the parties isn't happy. They chose not to release the coins immediately but after the four years that the escrow has set on it. The unhappy customer may be fine with having his coins stalled for four years. But for a shady dealer looking to scam more people, those four years are disastrous. He needs that money right now in order to scam more people. It's a far milder punishment for not holding up the deal but that may be a serious enough deterrent for serial scammers. In other words, merely having a time-release contract with a merchant is proof enough that you're not dealing with someone that is able to scam a lot of people. --- And for the speculative traders: Imagine a coin that encourages trading but occasionally burns or freezes coins like this. Imagine what that does to the value of the coins you yourself are holding  Smart contract is new to everyone. Can't wait for wallet. Anyone knows what time it's coming out? |
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In example 1 - what happens if the goods are never received?
You lose money. Seller lose reputation and that would be last time he would sell anything in Marketplace. Keep in mind smart contract can't protect you from scammers nothing can but it makes it less attractive for them so you'll never have to deal with scams who take your money and don't send you product. If you're buying from new seller it's your job to make sure that deal goes smoothly for you and you shouldn't buy from him if he isn't able to put some money in escrow. Even Nigerian prince can sell stuff in marketplace as long as he can find people who wants to get scam but he'll back out as soon as you ask him to deposit money in escrow. Now, if seller is old and has good reputation. Hell..I wouldn't even worry about it. In that case you'll just contact him and he'll send you the merchanise or update you with whatever is going on. Someone who has spent 1 year in building reputation there is less likely he'll come out and scam because he'll be risking his account. There will be angry buyers and there will be angry sellers but that's something that comes with business and there is no way to go around it. All you can do is not deal with that seller again and go to his account and give him negative review just like ebay. |
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I got a quick quesiton about something
Q: Please explain how the escrow system will protect buyers & sellers in BitBay transactions.
A: The system is the revolutionary double deposit escrow. Both Buyer and Seller place deposits into a shared account. There is no need for an escrow agent. The deposits serve as the incentive to perform. Therefore theft and deception is impossible in these escrows. If those actions occur, the parties will not agree, the escrow will expire and they both lose. BitBay takes the profit out of theft.
Lets say I am the buyers, and I really hate a seller. He sends me my product and I just dispute it causing him to lose coins, i keep doing this to bankrupt him. How will you prevent this?
I could care less if I lose coins I got the product in hand.
Because you have to deposit TWICE the amount required to buy the product. So, unless you are just some psychopathic rich weirdo who doesn't mind spending double the amount for something just to torment the seller, this isn't going to happen very often because most people actually value their money. So take for example I wanted to buy something for 10k USD I have to put 20k Down? No way... No way not happening. Pretty sure if you polled the community as a whole they would not go for this either. ^ You get it. The DD escrow just doesn't seem practical for use. I wonder how many people actually read the complete FAQ or understood how the escrow system really works. DD = deposit from both sides It doesn't mean you need "double money". If you're selling $100,000 car you can put $1 in an escrow if you like but obviously more you put in more secure the deal will be. It's all upto seller & buyer how much they want to put in escrow. There is no "mandatory" deposit requirement from "smart contract". It's given there as a safety measure. Obviously, you don't have to use it if you don't want and those who're against it can just leave it alone. In simple terms: Seller A is selling an earphone for $50. Buyer sends him a message. He replies. They both agree to seal the deal WITHOUT escrow. In that case no money is required from both side. What BitBay is doing is removing the middleman and allowing Buyer & Seller to seal the deal however they want. If deal turns sour they'll have no one to blame but themselves. Obvioiusly, If I'm selling something to new buyer I would want him to put money as "security deposit" and that totally depends on what we agree on. It can be anything from $0-$50k+ BUT it's totally upto Buyer & Seller. There is no one to tell you what to do. Isn't that wonderful? Damn right it is. Second example: You're sitting LA and wants to rent an apartment in NYC. You contact the seller and he tells you 500 BAY "security deposit" is required. You both agree and you deposit 500 BAY in an escrow with clause that "if he doesn't hear from you within a week deal will be canceled and you'll get back your security deposit (money you put in escrow)" OR "you'll move in new apartment within a month and if you don't money will be released to him". So, in this case seller deposit "zero" and buyer deposits "500 Bay". Both are happy with the deal and deal is secured. Obviously, second example is something that'll happen in long term and first example is something you'll start seeing as soon as marketplace is launched. My point is that Bay has more potential than any of us realize and don't look at DD as something mandatory. No one would force you to use it and no one would be yelling at you if you don't use it. Seller & Buyer have total control over it. |
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Escrows have been used for a very long time right now. There are three main downsides:
- Loss of liquidity
- High transaction fees
- Reliance on trustworthy middlemen
The biggest downside is the transaction fee. Real-life eskrows are hugely expensive. But they're worth it in large business deals because they secure against large companies breaking down on deals going haywire. Eskrows aren't used for guitars or cellphones in this case, they're used in corporate lawsuits, fusions and large construction projects. That's where the humongous margins are considered normal.
Right off the bat, Bitbay removes the biggest downside. The transaction fees are negligible.
Middlemen are another problem. They exist, but they are rare. Putting a large sum of money to be 'taken care for' by someone else, no matter how reputable is a problem. It takes a lot of checks and balances to counter the huge incentive for the middlemen to watch the deal go bust. This immediately explains why escrow fees are so expensive.
Bitbay also solves this. The escrow holder is a piece of incorruptible software.
So what remains is the loss of liquidity. People are entirely right that this is inconvenient for shopping online. Both for the merchant as well as the customer. But it's foolish to focus on just this. The exchange isn't just an Ebay, it's also a currency exchange, a stock exchange, a service platform, a craigslist and a ticketswap.
So fair enough. Bitbay won't immediately be used for the next smartphone or Furby. But it WILL be used to buy commodities and services. Stuff like gold, stock, coins. As well as marketing, design and code. There's simply no real alternative in this world.
It's not going to take out the online vendors. But it's going to facilitate a whole new market of traders that are currently really struggling in a financial environment where mutual trust is very low. If liquidity is the only obstacle then so be it. Not every downside is an unacceptable downside.
---
As for the price. I don't like that subject but I couldn't avoid the main optimistic and pessimistic comments being thrown here. I don't think much is going to happen upon the wallet release. IF something happens, like a surge then it's just smoke and mirrors by someone who wants it to appear that way.
What people have to take into account is that an ICO remains an incredibly hard to estimate thing to predict. There's no mining, there's very little buying and selling and a few BTC's worth can let you set the price wherever you like. We have no idea what Bitbay value. This initial market cap is just very arbitrary. The 20-30 area will probably stay here for a while and that's not really going to say anything about the coin itself.
Yes, very true indeed. BitBay will change the world in few years. If this project is legit (so far it hasn't given me any reason to think otherwise). This can change how everything works in marketplace and real world. Once people are used to using smart contracts they will never go back to "paypal" or any other middleman for that matter including real life ones (realtors as an example). |
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DON'T FEED THE TROLL
Generally I would agree. However, this is a thread off context. Meaning it is created and controlled by the author. I intend to dilute that control by calling out fallacies. In the end, it will be meaningless. But I am tired of trolls controlling the narrative so I will engage. He either screws up his narrative because he can't keep up with his own statements/examples or he ignores it. (To be clear - he's already done both) If he likes typing essays to match mine than so be it. Mine will get longer and more succinct. Every second he thinks about my counter is a second that he doesn't have elsewhere. And I have plenty of time. specifically I don't want David to get in this mess because he doesn't deserve it. He shouldn't have to deal with this BS. You're more than welcome to talk about it. |
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...
So as far as them putting my name to this. If you read the OP on BCT, they put me as lead dev before I had a chance to announce the news to BC. I was upset since the gossip spread so fast I didnt even have time to talk on my own behalf and so I had them change the post to say i was ONLY a project manager.
It was never my intention to be a lead dev of a coin that I myself didnt write from scratch. If you followed BC, you would know that and you would know that this action went way beyond what anyone expected from me.
After they had my name on it, and people kept asking questions on BCT and they only wanna talk to me, i felt like i didnt really have a choice.
So the only choice i had was to pass up the offer in the first place(and i didnt have a time machine). And I would had to consider that they would put my name all over it and that i would be forced to take on a larger role for them. At the time, I really had not considered it. To me, I was just cloning Halo for them and doing markets which i had planned all year anyways. At the time of negotiation my rationale was to "get paid doing what i was planning on doing anyways".
So, i accepted and now there has been some drama which i never ducked.
Instead of worrying about the past my only intention is to focus on the future. SO I'm just going to continue coding and try my best. Which is all anyone should expect. Im not going to spend my time worrying if they bought on the back end. If there is selling below ico, you may be right although i have no idea how you would expect me to provide evidence of that no matter how rational your argument. So now im going to simply have to walk forward and put one foot in front of the other.
Err.. have to admit it doesn't sound too promising. I divested a couple of days back as it was too much of risk for me. Hope it becomes a success as crypto could really do good with such projects.Best of luck guys. You forgot to read everything that David said. Obviously, Bitbay is for consumers and DD will have to be set up the way consumers want it. David has right to speak his mind and sometimes it can be different from what's good for Bay as a project. No big deal. David is a great dev as always and he has right to speak his mind. Bay is still as powerful as it ever was. Personally, I think it doesn't make sense to put an ICO that'll release 33% of total ICO money everytime you get to a milestone. If Bitbay wanted to make money they would make it differently so they can get all the fund out in one shot without achieving milestone (easiest and most profitable way to run away with money) BUT they didn't. That means money from ICO isn't their motivation at all. Competing with Alibab is their goal. You know the thing is, I believe in DD escrow. That was the reason I made it. I'm not the only one. Lots of people believe in it and there has been some contracts in Halo (we keep track of it). So although you are correct... ideally a society based on trust is a better one, we currently do not have a society based on trust. Simply turn on the news for a few minutes and listen to how corrupt and backwards society is.
I agree with you. There is definitely challenges in getting DD escrow to be used main stream. However, the same can be said for crypto.
Ive always been a fan of the old world and eye for an eye system. Regardless of its practicality because consumers want to feel comfortable
Instead of worrying about the past my only intention is to focus on the future. SO I'm just going to continue coding and try my best. Which is all anyone should expect. Im not going to spend my time worrying if they bought on the back end. If there is selling below ico, you may be right although i have no idea how you would expect me to provide evidence of that no matter how rational your argument. So now im going to simply have to walk forward and put one foot in front of the other.[/dzimbeck]
David role is a lead dev. People expecting him to answer questions regarding "alibaba" or "Ico money" is just plain retarded. How the hell would he know? Main issue is that people think that Bay is just a smalltime crypto like any other altcoin and two or three people are working on it. That's far from the truth. I think there are people working in this project who have no clue about crypto or btctalk forum for that matter and lot of users on btctalk don't keep that in mind that world doesn't revolve around "btctalk" forum.  My advice to David would be. Don't feed the troll. Focus on your coding and forget about everything else that's going on in BTCtalk forum. This place is full of drama and that's not just the case for "bitbay" it happens to every single crypto that comes out. Most of the trolls aren't looking for "answer". They're just looking to start drama and by feeding them you're falling into their trap. People who are holding bags of any other altcoin are just pissed off and some of them spend all day calling out every single altcoin that looks promising. Instead of blaming themselves for their loss they blame whole crypto community like a coward who don't have balls to blame himself for his loss. It's pathetic. |
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I think David said that first 4-5 wallets are exchange. Biggest holder had less than 1% last time I checked. |
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First of all I like the design of the new site, but as I'm really sensitive to typos, here are two that almost immediately struck my eyes.  You didn't notice they spelled David as Dabid? I think they're just trying to show us what it'll look like. Obviously everything will be fixed when it's launched. It looks very slick. |
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Hi Everyone We have gotten a few questions about whether you will need to update your wallet later this week when the the new release is here - the answer is no, there is no fork involved. But you will probably want to start playing with the new features in the smart wallet, so it would not hurt to set off some time during the weekend to upgrade. When David is has the wallet ready later this week we will be resetting the download packages and moving them onto our own server. The website is pretty much finished, we are just sorting out the last bugs in responsive behaviors. Here are a couple screenshots: https://i.imgur.com/DKkCTXF.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/Pz6a3a2.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/DKkCTXF.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/Pz6a3a2.jpgWe have a self hosted wallet download section all ready to go on the new site, so we will just wait for David's delivery and test everything before swapping over from the old site to the new. So, new wallet and website on Friday and a nice weekend to follow. : -) BitBay team Very nice. Can't wait to install it and try some of the functions! |
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OMG my dream has been crushed because coin is barely one month old and it hasn't doubled in price. How am I going to run away with profit, now? Should I sell?
Pathetic people..really pathetic. It shows how much crypto community has been brainwashed into thinking that you'll get rich overnight.
Like 90% of the people here think that way. I hope not I'm just saying there are many people in crypto who're so much used to p&d that they can't think beyond it and Bay is here to fix that (I hope). I'm not blaming them for it because that's what crypto has grown into. I just hope that everyone be patient because Bay has much more potential than anyone can possibly imagine at this point. |
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OMG my dream has been crushed because coin is barely one month old and it hasn't doubled in price. How am I going to run away with profit, now? Should I sell? Pathetic people..really pathetic. It shows how much crypto community has been brainwashed into thinking that you'll get rich overnight. Bay is something that was desperately needed in this community to get people off the mindset of p&d. Looks like it has been doing a wonderful job lately. |
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I wish the mods would come in here and clean house. You guys are ruining what should be an intelligent discussion about a potential game-changing technology with your schoolyard bickering.
I agree and vote it gets deleted, what a waste of time scanning that crap. We are only as strong as our weakest link guys, we are a young community yes this does not mean we are stupid and we do not know how to be nice to eachother?, this means it's going require leaders to work hard and build this community from the ground. We have a patient lead dev who is as bright as they come, we have a team who i have no reason to disbelieve, we also have a community who will without a doubt need to play a constructive roll in this going and maintaining mainstream,. Lead dev + Team + Strong Community = A bright future we would be unstoppable. Now take just one of them out of the equation and the calculations start getting angry and do not add up. My 2 pennies.. Play nice please guys and lets have a thread of ideas and cooperation to get where we are going. Some people have need to call other names when they question anything about BitBay. They hurt Bay more than anything else. They're as bad as fudders |
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Exactly. Somehow this punk thinks that Bay will take over Odesk eventhough employee is required to deposit escrow. Same goes for Ebay too...0 feedback and you can still sell stuff and buyers will gobble it up as long as your price is cheaper than other seller.
If anything double deposit will limit the amount of buyers/sellers visit the marketplace.
Wait a second... you do understand that in that case (employee) it would be absurd to require a deposit for the employee? In that case they are the same as the vendor actually... providing a service. If they are unknown and providing a service for a very high rate without proof of competency... then a DD escrow contract would make sense... on the other hand if they are asking a reasonable rate and willing to accept my offer (via smart contract I would draft) then I simply agree to pay smaller amounts over time as deadlines are met rather than a single contract for the entire amount upfront. ... Exactly the same as I would do for someone that was physically hired as an employee on-site, with nothing but a resume (i.e. without a reputation I could simply verify with colleagues for example). Nothing is required on either side of a smart contract... what makes it 'smart' however is that stipulations can be integrated on one or both sides in cases where other means of assuring 'fair play' from both parties is not available. There's nothing to say you can't sell something with no deposit required at all... also nothing saying that they (or you) can't simply violate that contract with little repercussion (other than a reputation ding)... just like any other online marketplace. The difference is that decentralization requires a different approach to difficult situations... because there's no running to the police/moderators/government/etc. and crying "foul".  As I said before I agree with what you're saying. Double deposit is there just as precaution (I think) and that'll benefit everyone from small to big guys who'll try to use marketplace. Big guys can secure their transaction and small guys will just ignore it altogether to make deal go easy & faster for them. I'm sure there will be things like "reviews" etc. Another option could be require double deposit from new buyers/sellers and once they've built reputation then they have an option to use it as required. Meaning if buyer A has 5+ reputation and seller has 5+ reputation they won't have to use double deposit. That Odesk argument started from that punk (qawzsx) who said that double deposit is better for freelance service. Personally, I don't think it'll even be used when hiring people for small jobs. It has no purpose there and might do more harm than good. |
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Nobody will hire you with no feedback on Odesk. That's my point. Nobody will buy from you on ebay with low feedback. Etc.
That's completely false, I have actually used both ebay and Odesk as seller of product/service, both starting from 0 feedback, and easily sold my product/service. Sure the profit/price was lower in the beginning while I'm establishing my reputation, but it's false to say "nobody" will buy from you when you have 0 feedback. Exactly. Somehow this punk thinks that Bay will take over Odesk eventhough employee is required to deposit escrow. Same goes for Ebay too...0 feedback and you can still sell stuff and buyers will gobble it up as long as your price is cheaper than other seller. What? Changing the subject? Where is that confidence? "I have more bay than you can possibly imagine" Don't call me punk you poor as quacker. Look at yourself first. You asked for 1 bay ..you got it. What did you send? NOTHING. I'm not going to drive to my house to pull pen drive that holds rest of my bay, punk. Get off my dick. |
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Nobody will hire you with no feedback on Odesk. That's my point. Nobody will buy from you on ebay with low feedback. Etc.
That's completely false, I have actually used both ebay and Odesk as seller of product/service, both starting from 0 feedback, and easily sold my product/service. Sure the profit/price was lower in the beginning while I'm establishing my reputation, but it's false to say "nobody" will buy from you when you have 0 feedback. Exactly. Somehow this punk thinks that Bay will take over Odesk eventhough employee is required to deposit escrow. Same goes for Ebay too...0 feedback and you can still sell stuff and buyers will gobble it up as long as your price is cheaper than other seller. If anything double deposit will limit the amount of buyers/sellers visit the marketplace. |
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Dude, are you stupid or stupid? I said send me from an address with 2kk bay on it. You said "I have more bay than you can possibly imagine"
I'll send you back your 1 bay since you don't know what 2kk means. Just wait to find the VM hosting that wallet.
What's that? no 50k? all talk? Enjoy 1 bay buddy and take your punk ass somewhere else. Keep it civilized. |
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@qawzsx : Why I'm here ? Probably because i own some BitBays, followed the project because i found the concept interesting, now I'm kind of genuinely concerned about the business model of the Decentralized MarketPlace and how the Escrow System works because it will be the backbone of the system.
Personnaly i think the adoption and wide use of the coin is essential to its developement.
And we haven't even talked about volatility of BitBay and this problem combined with the escrow time regarding Vendor and Buyer...
Seller & Buyer will be able to set their own escrow amount. Double deposit was just an example ( I think) lol. I hope it's not mandatory because that can come bite your ass when marketplace launches. I'm really not sure how it would benefit small time sellers/buyers. Freelancer: Would the guy who is looking for job really deposit money before applying for job? No, I don't think so. Buyer: Would they deposit $2000 for something that costs $1000 just so they can avoid $5 fees from Paypal? Nope Seller: Would seller deposit more money than what is needed in order to avoid fees? Nope Lawyer: Would he deposit money before client hires him? Nope On other hand this market can be very useful for things such as real estate deals & bank deals It can be beneficial for things such as an IBM working on a project for a client and client don't like the idea. They both deposit money in escrow and IBM starts working on that project. After a month they reassess to see if new project brought profit to client company. Once client sees the benefit money will be taken out from the escrow and it'll be released to IBM. Big companies, Big buyers, Big sellers. They would love this "double deposit" and I don't think it's really meant for day to day user who is living in poverty time. Just my few cents. On the contrary, you are wrong... For example as an employer on a freelancing marketplace, I don't give a shit about your skills as a freelancer with no good feedback. I'm looking for somebody who is TRUSTING his skill and is dedicated to finish the work in time and deliver as advertised. For example as a seller, I won't sell you shit if you don't have a proper feedback and you are willing to pay trough paypal. I won't take that chargeback chance. For example as a buyer, I will pay an escrow fee just be sure that your cell phone is working as advertised. That won't be a problem. You are WRONG. You are looking from a "scammer" perspective. "Is he willing to do that? Ofc not if he's not a honest person" I get it, there are sellers and buyer who can't afford escrow service. So what? Does that make the service "good for nothing"? That's plain STUPID!!!! Stop looking from that perspective, and be creative. On top of that, stop thinking short time. "Look, the volatility...." Gosh... Fine, as someone looking for job I would just use Odesk where I don't have to risk "money" in order to apply for a job. See..what you don't understand is that if I have the money. Why would I look for job? or if I have $600 why would I buy something that costs $300? It makes more sense to just visit Ebay or other store and buy one that costs $500 instead of throwing double money in escrow. The main reason people buy something on Ebay is because they don't have money to buy same thing at higher price in store. That means if they want to buy $300 cellphone they DON'T have $600. I never said it's useless. I said I don't think it's mandatory and it's probably used as precaution when you're making big deal with a buyer who is in different country than you are. Nobody will hire you with no feedback on Odesk. That's my point. Nobody will buy from you on ebay with low feedback. Etc. "See..what you don't understand is that if I have the money. Why would I look for job? or if I have $600 why would I buy something that costs $300? It makes more sense to just visit Ebay or other store and buy one that costs $500 instead of throwing double money in escrow." You are really stupid just by writing this. As a freelancer you are making YOUR money by doing various jobs for employers. Gosh. BTW, the main reason people buy something on Ebay is because it's cheaper, not because they don't have money. Are you stupid? How the fuck can you say that somebody is buying things on ebay because they don't have money to buy at higher price? Are you that type? "Mneah, I'm not going to buy this cheap cell phone because I afford to pay twice the price for the same phone in the same condition somewhere else" Dude. Calm the fck down. I have more bay than you can possibly imagine so no need to act childish & call names. I know you want Bay to reach $1 so you can run away with your profit and you'll bash anyone who questions anything but many of us ARE not looking to run away with profit and we do see future in Bay and proper discussion is required in order to achieve that success. I'm putting you in ignore list just for acting like 2 yrs old )))))))))))))))))))))))))) yes, you have... send me 1 bay from an address who have at least 2kk bay on it, and I'll send you 50k bay back. Post your address. I'm more than happy to send you 1 bay and you better send 50k in return. May be try reading previous posts of person you're talking to. BEHWHFbjrfa1NefCvNEKF1vXYaxRMiEAQu   Your turn B8PnPf2AbyhRFpMrTU4WbsVW1sXevUh2hv Is this a fucking joke? 25,693 bay? )))))))) GTFO that's what I thought. You have no balls, buddy. All talk. Let me quote your post again )))))))))))))))))))))))))) yes, you have... send me 1 bay from an address who have at least 2kk bay on it, and I'll send you 50k bay back. |
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