Actually the opposite. Cointerra's 500 Gh/s will need a big fancy heatsink or water cooling system. But look at Bitfury's 400Gh/s rig with 256 small chips. They need neither heatsinks, nor fans, because the heat is so well distributed that air convection alone does the job.

Which of my statements is "retarded"? (2nd time you criticize. 2nd time you fail to point out the specific statement.)

If/when they are available, I will certainly post to this thread.

I already explained why I revived this thread. You ignored it. And for the 3rd time: your verbal assault is continuing. Stop it. Be civil and respectful here. This is my last warning & reply to you.

There is no "bullshit" in my posts. I correctly predicted mining wouldn't make the BTC back. I never commented on reselling (which was the only way to make profit).

On the other hand, there is "bullshit" or plain lies in your posts ("I knew they were overpriced" vs. "I will achieve 140% ROI mining").

But this is irrelevant. If I had made an incorrect prediction, at most I would have been wrong, but I would not have degraded the quality of the forum's discussions, because my writings remain polite. I say you are degrading the quality of bitcointalk.org because you are being childish (lying), and verbally assaulting me.

I try to make you and others aware of, and learn from, your bad predictions of difficulty levels. And you are there assaulting me. *sigh*... The reason the quality of bitcointalk.org has degraded over the last 2 years is because of posts like yours

I am sure you would like a flying pony on top of it 

My point is you predicted they would make 140% ROI *mining*, not re-selling. You were wrong on that. I am glad you financially did ok. But the bottom line is you underestimated difficulty increases. You said "we already knew", but you obviously did not.

You must have a short memory, dogie You were one of the guys who bought blades (at 50.5 BTC each in the 2nd auction) and who thought would achieve 140% ROI *chuckle* when in fact it is clear by now 2nd auction buyers won't even mine more than ~40 BTC...

If a manufacturer would have, today September 2, Avalon clones (4 modules so 100+ Ghash/s each) all ready for immediate shipping from the USA or local pickup, how much would you be willing to purchase them for?

Keep in mind that difficulty is currently doubling every month. This means something shipping now instead of 30 days from now is twice more valuable, all other technical characteristics being equal.

As I suspected/predicted, difficulty continued to increase significantly. Those who bid 75 BTC for a 12.8 Gh/s blade in late April 2013 never made their BTC back. They spent 75 BTC to mine ~40 BTC so far. They will never mine more than ~45 BTC in the rest of the lifetime of their equipment. Holding BTC would have been smarter.

I guess these blades have at least sentimental value, being some of the first ASICs.

And by September 2011, the hdd case concept image was already removed/replaced with a photo of the real PCB prototype. (I remember that because this was the time I first heard about BFL and saw their PCB.)

So what is your point? That a beta website, not announced to the public, not taking pre-orders, prior to September, was showing a concept image of the Single?? This whole thread makes no sense.

Read the legalese. It does not say 30 days. It says 30 days or the time [the vendor] stated.

I guess one could argue that after sending the second and subsequent notices of delay, BFL interpreted customers' silence as automatic consent, when they should have automatically refunded. But any customer suing BFL for that would not be acting in good faith. Those who initiated refund requests on their own were refunded, no questions asked, and all those who stayed silent really wanted to remain in line.

Ok, I stand corrected, thank you for giving out the source.

But then, the date of this archive.org snapshot, August 19, 2011, elucidates everything... At that time BFL had not introduced themselves to the community, they had of course not even started taking orders, and the community was at large completely unaware of BFL. There is only a single bitcointalk.org post referencing BFL, that pre-dates August 19. It was made 4 days earlier on August 15 in the russian subforum by some guy who apparently stumbled upon the site: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35259.msg456853#msg456853 His post was probably the first link to butterflylabs.com ever, and is probably what allowed the archive.org crawler to discover and archive the page.

Obviously this was a beta version of their website that they were not ready to advertise around. I see no malice in having a non-final "concept" case for the single... Much ado for nothing.

/thread close

On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not.

CrashX, you are trolling. You, or someone, made the fake screenshot. There was never a picture of an ext hdd case on BFL's website.

Of course not. I commented, because I want to hear Simon's explanation about his company's choice of making a 250W chip, in order to determine how risky an investment in Hashfast would be.


"More wafer cutting, more chip packaging": true, but negligible. A Baby Jet costs $5600. At most, a few extra dollars would be spent to slice and package 4 chips instead of 1 per machine.

"more complex boards, more supporting components": true, but completely negligible. Look at Avalon: each additional chip on a hash unit has merely 13 supporting components (resistors and ferrite beads, all 0402) which cost at most a few cents. An extra bitcoin mining chip added to a circuit in general does not need much supporting components because all it needs is power and a low speed serial i/o line.

"more fans, more heatsinks": false. As you pointed out it's a curve. It's a choice between more heatsink + fewer fans, or less heatsink + more fans. But both solutions, air and water, must be designed to cool 250W regardless.

"more assembly": false. The little extra time of pick-and-placing, say 3 extra bga chips, is completely negligible compared to the extra assembly time required to install the water cooling system. I guess Hashfast could save time by shipping systems with the water cooling completely untested and unassembled. But still, the extra time to pick-and-place 3 extra bga chips on a board with 100+ components remains negligible.

Air cooling is cheaper and faster to assemble. Nobody argues against that. I am surprised that you do(!)

...which is a problem created in the first place by the choice of concentrating 250W of heat on a single socket, requiring high airflow over a relatively small space.

If Hashfast had designed 4 x 63W chips as I suggested, there would be 4 heatsinks occupying a larger space, hence allowing the use of larger, slower, lower-wattage fans.

By the way, this is wrong. You need to consider the system as a whole when comparing water cooling vs air cooling.

You need at least N square centimeters of surface area to transfer 250W of heat to the air no matter the cooling solution: whether this surface area is the fins of a heatsink in an air cooling setup, or the radiator helping water exchange its heat with air in a water cooling setup. (And as you pointed out, water cooling in general uses even more surface area to allow using slower and larger fans.) Now what do you think require less material and parts:

(1) have the N square centimeters of metal sitting right on top of a chip, or
(2) have the chip transfer the heat through a water block, to water, through a pump, through a radiator.

Obviously (1), that is air cooling, requires less material and parts, and less assembly overall: the same N square centimeters of surface area is required (or less), but there is no water, no pump, no water block.

Of course, there are plenty of vendors! If you opened up a BFL Single SC, you would find it has 2 standard 120mm fans + 2 standard CPU heatsink/fan assemblies. These are real commodity parts, available in much larger quantities than any water block.