|
I agree that miners should look at the consumption at the wall to calculate their real cost. But the purpose of this thread, my thread, is to compare consumption at the chip level.
And FYI, FPGA board vendors don't talk about power consumption at the wall, but at the 12V level, after the AC/DC PSU.
|
|
|
|
|
Alright, jgarzik measured 620 Watt at the wall. And taking into account ngzhang information, we determine that the power consumed by the chips is:
(620 (Watt at the wall) * .82 (AC/DC PSU efficiency) - 5 (Watt minimum for the fans)) * .87 (DC/DC PSU efficiency) = 438 Watt
At 66.3 Ghash/s, that is 66300/438 = 151 Mhash/Joule. So this confirms ngzhang's original claim of 6.6-6.7 Watt per Ghash/s for the chips.
|
|
|
|
If you match this 0.1 BTC, I will send 10 BTC, then 100 BTC, then 1000 BTC, then 20000 BTC. Progressively increasing the amount each time. You told me you can bet up to 1000 bitcoins and now your offer is for 20000?! I don't take you seriously. Do you really think I'm gonna invest time in verifying terms and conditions of your bet with Micon and studying casascius escrow system just to play the game of a betting junkie? For the record... ASICs for cryptographic purposes have been created more than a decade ago. It is not a rocket science to create one for bitcoin mining. I wrote about that before I even came across your betting addiction on this funny thread. Read about it here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0The question is not if BFL is going to deliver "something" like a bitcoin mining ASIC. After almost a year of delays even my grandma can deliver an ASIC if she collects 20 million from greedy brainless sheeple and outsources every possible aspect of the ASIC creation... With so many millions collected from the sheeple, BFL got the chance to deliver something in due course but they are so incompetent that they have missed it! They have started as a scam and will end up as a scam. Why? Because BFL fans will get back only a fraction of the value they have invested. To sum it up, you are probably on the bottom list of the people on Earth that I would care if my thoughts are liked or not. So, stop trolling and sending spam to my pm box. See? I called your bluff and I was right: I am willing to bet more than you and only had to put 0.1 BTC down to prove it. You are refusing to match this ridiculously small amount, because you just admitted you believe in BFL's ability to deliver an ASIC, therefore that you have no reason to bet against me in the first place... So why on earth did you waste your and my time trolling this thread? Please PM me your "B" escrow code so that I can recover the 0.1 BTC that I sent... If you refuse, I will ask casascius to send me that code. |
|
|
|
404 Page not found - Does it mean that the trade-ins option has been completely removed from the site? Is this the correct URL? I wanted to trade-in, but the "Get Credit" button at http://launch.avalon-asics.com (which you were supposed to click for trade-ins) has never done anything, even right at the time the non-trade-in became available. It just makes the page scroll to the top. So instead I was forced to order a non-trade-in Avalon  What was people's experience for those who order the trade-ins? What page did you browse to to order? |
|
|
|
|
No, Jeff did not. However Yifu quoted a very narrow range of 6.6-6.7 Watt per Ghash/s. So presumably he measured this on a real Avalon. I am sure Jeff will confirm soon.
|
|
|
|
- "the whole forum was sure this was a scam" -> On the contrary, if you read the forums carefully you will find a very small number of critics with no credibility, and/or a history of trolling, making a lot of posts, but there is a much larger number of supporters (older accounts with more credence) who only defend ASIC vendors occasionally. The mere fact that BFL has so many preorders proves the large number of believers/supporters (and yes some of these customers in line are here just for the quick money and have no idea of the risks) - this is one of the reasons I say you are misinformed, because you failed to distinguish the general opinion of the forum members - but this is not your fault - it takes a lot of time to sift through the posts to filter out who can be trusted, who has the credentials, what information is important, etc
Actually it's been the opposite in this case. A number of veterans here cast doubt over Avalon as a result of their sudden "BFL like" behavior, which is a lot more than I can say about the nonsense that surrounded BFL for quite some time. Avalon started out with some transparency, but when it came time to package and ship they suddenly went secretive. That's never usually a good sign, and resulted in quite a bit of reasonable unease. It was the "newbie" accounts that kept popping up noting Avalon wasn't a scam and that we were overreacting. Given the information (or lack thereof) we had available to us, I found the unease and pessimistic speculation justified, if not warranted. People can only make informed decisions with information...take that away and we're left with our imaginations. Well, what can I say... you were wrong too about interpreting the forum's general opinion. "The number of veterans" who casted doubt about Avalon were almost all posters with no credibitily, no trust, and a history of trolling and making wrong guesses. Just because someone is a veteran (has a high post count) does not mean he can be trusted. I challenge you to list 5 trusted veterans who expressed a high certainty that Avalon was a scam -> you will not find any. That's a skill you have to learn on a forum like this: determining who can be trusted in what they say/think vs. who is uninformed. A good starting point is to look at how dark the poster's "ignore" link is (the darker = the more persons chose to ignore him because what he says is not valuable). |
|
|
|
|
Time to refresh this thread. Avalon demonstrated 150 Mhash/Joule. This is twice better than the second best chip, developed by Virginia Tech, achieving 73 Mhash/Joule (obviously not Bitcoin-optimized).
|
|
|
|
Not sure if trolling me or what. I knew that, however BFL has possible numbers, an history as FPGA maker and yet to ship. bAsics, almost the same. The whole forum was sure that this was a scam, the FACT that we where told lies is enought to prove it: why the Chinese customers didn't get their units if the only problem what to pass Chinese customs? Do we really belive that, again? They have problems they don't wont to admit with this avalon. Full point.
The million dollar they will get tomorrow will most probably fix these problems.
I think that you are the uninformed.
Edit, yes, I readed your post at the time but didn't tought it was worth replying. Everyone belive what they want to belive, you are one of the guys that would have paid in btc even without Jeff receiving its unit. You cannot say that hey, they just started shipping to Chinese customers, you can't except them to already have them. Yes, not in 3 days, but what about 2 weeks? Seriously? Also, the lack of the video, how do you seriously justify it? It dosent make any sense. Sorry, I'm from my phone and don't have the time right now to answer properly. I hope to have made a few points anyway.
That's ok, take your time to reply when you are in front of a PC. - "the whole forum was sure this was a scam" -> On the contrary, if you read the forums carefully you will find a very small number of critics with no credibility, and/or a history of trolling, making a lot of posts, but there is a much larger number of supporters (older accounts with more credence) who only defend ASIC vendors occasionally. The mere fact that BFL has so many preorders proves the large number of believers/supporters (and yes some of these customers in line are here just for the quick money and have no idea of the risks) - this is one of the reasons I say you are misinformed, because you failed to distinguish the general opinion of the forum members - but this is not your fault - it takes a lot of time to sift through the posts to filter out who can be trusted, who has the credentials, what information is important, etc - "Chinese customers not speaking" -> firstly it is likely that ngzhang/yifu has literally just RUSHED a handful of units to the world so far, and that not a single Chinese customer was in this first shipped group (the bitcoin community is small in China compared to the rest of the world), plus there is the language barrier and they frequent different Bitcoin-related sites (have you seen the ridiculously small number of members posting in the Chinese subforum of bitcointalk.org?) - "lack of video" -> If you were infomed, you would know that Yifu has explained they don't want to waste time trying to argue with critics, by providing videos, pictures, and so on, and that they would rather simply let the customers provide reviews/credibility. Again - not your fault to not know that - Yifu's post explaining their stance was buried deep in a thread. Really I am asking you the question: is there anything we could have said that would have convinced you? Pointing out the top 10 most relevant posts from Yifu/ngzhang? Again I am just interested in the psychological aspects of the debate - sorry if you think I am trolling. |
|
|
|
Marc pushes SgtSpike to the side  Micon: me too I have always been, and will always be, interested in betting up to 1000 BTC. Let me know.
|
|
|
|
How would fewer debates and arguments improve anything? The salient points nearly always spring from the passionate debates/arguments.
Congrats Avalon, I haven't had much time to look over Jeff's posts yet, but the product he received looks very impressive.
Yes, salient points come out of passionate debates. What I meant to say is that there was a lot of repetition: the same arguments, repeated over and over, with people apparently never moving forward. |
|
|
|
You know that 1110 hours is only a month and a half, correct?
Yes i do, but by the time you add in the cost of electricity, occasional down time, the designers profit margin etc, you are talking close to 6mo to pay for your ASIC chip. Which is why BFL is selling ASICs (for an instant profit) instead of mining with them for months to recoup their investment. Congratulation for logically deducing that BFL's business actually makes financial sense, therefore is realistic! PS: will you promise me that you will write an apology, once I receive my ASICs from BFL in the next few months, proving that you were wrong?  Please specify what "few months" means in real numbers. I don't think you will get 4.5GH/s for $150 price tag at 1000MH/J as the Jalapeno is specced here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparisonDon't get me wrong, I don't want to be the "doom cryer" or a pessimist, I would LOVE to see ASIC products to be available for bitcoin. I just don't think it will happen. By ASIC i mean true asic, not FPGA conversion. I see no point in continuing this discussion. I tried to reason with you but you avoided to answer all the technical arguments I spent time writing down in this post explaining that ASICs are very plausible. Besides, it is now proven that you were wrong. As widely reported today, "it happened": jgarzik, a core bitcoin developer, has received the first ASIC unit, and is mining with it as we speak. So, please stop trolling the forums. |
|
|
|
Most critics did not say there is a "chance". They said with absolute certainty "it is a scam". Cedivad included: check his thread title.
These uninformed and misguided critics have been the root cause of most of the trolling and fights on this forum.
Look at my first point. For the info we had 2 hours ago, it was a certain scam. Now everything changed. You were poorly informed, because multiple details apparently unknown to you indicated that Avalon was likely legit: - history of the guys, long-term members of this community (ngzhang and yifu had made and sold fpga devices, I personally bought fpgas from yifu) - very conservative and plausible power consumption (150 Mhash/Joule) - old 110nm tech, easier to design at than 65nm I replied to your points of concern, but you seem to have ignored or not seen them: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139725.msg1489135#msg1489135I guess I am more interested in the psychology of this debate: what could we have said differently that would have changed your mind, that perhaps Avalon was legit? I am sure this boils down to poor communication and sharing of information between forum members. I am trying to understand how the communication can be improved. Because if it can be improved, there would be a lot fewer debates and arguments on these forums, hence it would improve the quality of the forum as a whole (and I am really interested in improving it.) |
|
|
|
Looks like Jeff received his package... Should I hold my breath waiting for those crying scam to apologise?  They don't need to apologize. I never cried "scam" and I always maintained that Avalon, at least, actually did ship. Even so, I side with the sceptical here. They did nothing wrong. They pointed out, however shallow the logic, that there was a chance that Avalon was a scam. This is more information to everyone. This helps avoid groupthink. The doubters need not apologize. In fact, I would like to thank them. It helps prove to the real scammers how difficult it would be to scam the community, such that even legitimate products are labelled scams. It ensures a better, safer community in Bitcoin's future. No. Most critics did not say there is a "chance". They said with absolute certainty "it is a scam". Cedivad included: check his thread title. These uninformed and misguided critics have been the root cause of most of the trolling and fights on this forum. |
|
|
|
I don't believe Casascius can take control of the coins, even with consent from one of the other parties. The other party would have to take control of the coins, then send them to an address Casascius specifies.
Yes he can. That's the whole point of an escrow: being able to control the coins. Anybody with the 3 codes (a, b, payment) can withdraw the coins. If becoin fails to fund the escrow (which I expect), I would give casascius the payment code to let him compute the private address and return my coins. |
|
|
|
You know that 1110 hours is only a month and a half, correct?
Yes i do, but by the time you add in the cost of electricity, occasional down time, the designers profit margin etc, you are talking close to 6mo to pay for your ASIC chip. Which is why BFL is selling ASICs (for an instant profit) instead of mining with them for months to recoup their investment. Congratulation for logically deducing that BFL's business actually makes financial sense, therefore is realistic! PS: will you promise me that you will write an apology, once I receive my ASICs from BFL in the next few months, proving that you were wrong? |
|
|
|
These links confirmed what I said: only ~5% of the models are available in quantity of 1+ million (eg. only 15 of the 325 models of the 10kΩ resistors you linked to). I agree that in general they are mostly interchangeable. When I design a circuit, as a hobbyist, I tend to pick the models/manufacturers of components available in greatest quantities, as they are usually also the less expensive. But I am not a designer of Avalon. I don't know their constraints. I don't know their requirements. I can't speak for themselves. All I know is some electronics designers are picky about which specific manufacturer of components they choose. |
|
|
|
|
I cracked it. The password is "1234" (nothing to be proud of).
The zip is not what it claims to be. It contains hashpower.com screenshots and a cat picture. Nothing about Avalon.
|
|
|
|
|
Oops! Shame on me. Damn extra zeros.
If I may adjust my argument and estimation, the Avalon ASIC PCB shows about 15 resistors/capacitors per ASIC. I estimated earlier they will have about 80 ASICs per Avalon, so that's 1200 resistors/capacitors per Avalon, multiplied by 600 units = 720k resistors/capacitors. Not 1+ million but close.
|
|
|
|
even resistors/capacitors can cause a 4-6 week delay (which he wants to avoid) when ordered in quantities of 1+ million (each Avalon unit probably has 200+ resistors/capacitors, multiplied by 600 units = 1.2 million).
>200*600=1 200 000  Huh? You just confirmed my math. |
|
|
|
No. The SHA-256 part of the ASIC that I pointed to was designed in weeks, not 2-3 years. It is open source and just a few hundred lines of VHDL: https://cryptography.gmu.edu/athena/index.php?id=source_codesAlso, yes, BFL can, and probably did, spend about $1M developing their ASIC so far. They have received more than $1M of preorders (proven), plus additional venture capital (according to them). They can definitely foot the bill. Also, the Avalon team seems to have been able to do it for less than $300-400k (excluding salaries), based on their price quotes from TSMC with poorly obscured prices ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120184.msg1381782#msg1381782 ). This validates anecdotal evidence of private wealthy individual engineers having designed their own ASIC for personal projects for only a few hundred thousand dollars. Bottom line, yes Bitcoin ASICs are definitely financially doable by teams with the funding of BFL and Avalon. If you doubt this, I encourage you to bet against the "BFL is real" bet (see link in my signature) - you would make a killing if you are right Nice try. I can design a nuclear reactor in couple days, i really can; but it does not mean I can build one for less than $5 billion and faster than 5-10 years. That chip doing 73 Mhash/J was more than merely designed, it was built! Go look at the die pictures! |
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
