FWIW, if there are any developers interested in keeping Counterparty going once multisig abuse filters are in place, there is no reason the recommended plan cannot work with a fork of Counterparty instead of the original developers. Rather than making thinly veiled threats, perhaps you can respond to the relevant points that have been brought up. Irrelevant agenda-serving, more like... And responding to these doesn't really bring anything forward. Since the existing Counterparty developer(s?) outright refuse to move forward, the only other practical option for Counterparty is someone else doing it. He knows what he's saying here is wrong. Satoshi himself added the IsStandard restriction concept. I have long since been opposed to using such restrictions when unnecessary: notice how Eligius is the only pool which allows non-standard transactions, and it has allowed them since nearly when I started it. The problem here, why whitelisting is needed for mining on Eligius, is because of Counterparty's unique position (I am ignoring Mastercoin in this thread) where it is currently indistinguishable from spam, which needs to be blacklisted due to abuse. Every other miner and relay node would require whitelisting no matter how it's done (other than abusing multisig, which will soon not work either). It is true that forcing miners to provide you with security will result in better security than giving them a choice, because it is inevitable that some miners will opt not to provide the service. And yes, it is also true that blockchain-based decentralised systems are always at risk of 51% attacks by design. However, it is pure FUD to try to scare everyone away from doing the right thing by implying it is a given they will be attacked. If you're providing a service with your altchain, it's in miners' interest to support you, not attack you, unless you are doing something harmful. Sure, there will perhaps always be exceptions, but as long as you have a majority of miners assisting you, you'll be fine. This is also part of why Eligius goes out of the way to support legitimate altchains which support merged mining, even if they aren't necessarily useful to the pool (for example, we helped ChronoKings/HunterCoin test their blockchain-based game). It doesn't solve anything, since fees don't cover transaction costs.
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FWIW, if there are any developers interested in keeping Counterparty going once multisig abuse filters are in place, there is no reason the recommended plan cannot work with a fork of Counterparty instead of the original developers.
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I know, I remember the whole BIP16/17 fiasco. I don't agree that turning to the community for a decision is wrong. It's not like I think killing premined altcoins is bad. I just don't want LukeJr, without telling his miners or getting their support, to turn his mining power away from what it is supposed to be doing to whatever he wants to do with it. He can put prayers in the blockchain all day long for all I care. I just want him to get consent from his miners before he does shit like that and stop wielding his mining power like a sword. He doesn't have the right to do it. I would think it would be a red flag for him that his supporter is Realsolid Coinhunter BitcoinEXpress.
I shutdown CoiledCoin by myself. Eligius miners were not involved.
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I used BFGMiner with my Block Erupter CUBE to solo mining SHA coin, when I start the BFGMiner, I got these error message:
[2014-03-22 19:50:10] blktmpl error: Unrecognized block version, and not allowed to reduce or force it
The wallet is fully synchronised, even I delete all old block data and do fully synchronised again the error still exist. Would the dev please tell me what does it mean?
This is something wrong with your pool.
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You don't need an anonymous pool or any payment. LukeJr loves to kill altcoins. He'll do it for free. He's done it before. No need to slander me. I killed one scamcoin before, simply by mining it. Was pretty funny until the scammers got up in arms. But I have no problem with legit altcoins. It doesn't sound like these guys do either (but I only read the first post). I don't see any extortion either, sounds like they're just a volunteer community service team.
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You don't want the bitcoin protocol to change to allow counterparty to operate in a more beneficial way, and then you say that it will change in the future. It will upgrade to allow that support in the future. I never said I didn't want the Bitcoin protocol to change. On the contrary, I support extending it to do what Counterparty wants. But such extensions are slow-moving right now, and take time to implement properly. I also understand Counterparty wants a solution "today". I agree the 80-byte OP_RETURN is a good short-term way to do this. Deploying a whitelist to miners, to accept these Counterparty transactions can be done within a few weeks. But deploying a default relay policy change requires months (releasing a new version of Bitcoin Core, and the slowest part: waiting for all the users to upgrade). Thankfully, there is an immediately available workaround to not having the default relay policy "on your side": Just have Counterparty participants relay their transactions to nodes running the updated relay policy. So, recommended course of action: Immediate-term:1. Write Bitcoin Core patch to whitelist 80-byte OP_RETURN-based Counterparty transactions. 2. Deploy patch to major mining pools, and open merge request with mainline Bitcoin Core. 3. Begin using OP_RETURN Counterparty immediately; use addnode to get it relayed to miners. Short-term:4. After discussion, patch is merged to Bitcoin Core. 5. Bitcoin Core 0.10 is released with a default relay policy accepting Counterparty transactions, and addnode is no longer needed. Long-term:6. Counterparty developers discuss future plans with Freimarkets developers and others interested in this kind of functionality. 7. Interested developers figure out the best way to do everything, probably including using merged-mining, side-chains, and other things that are impractical today. 8. Interested developers implement new system, and write a BIP documenting it. 9. BIP gets reviewed. 10. Counterparty users upgrade to new version based on BIP. 11. Everyone gets a break. Hopefully that clarifies my position.
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PhantomPhreak is saying that he will NOT do something that depends on enlisting a small subset of mining pools, precisely because he wants to be a team player and build only on "vanilla Bitcoin Core." This is nonsense. Nobody on the Bitcoin Core dev team wants Counterparty to abuse multisig. "Enlisting ... mining pools" is the only alternative to forcing mining pools against their will by hiding it in multisig (although hopefully soon we'll have a filter to deal with that). Eligius is over 10% of the network, so it's hardly a "small subset" anyway. Besides, if you're so confident that the other pools won't freely service Counterparty, maybe you should really re-think whether forcing it on them is acceptable??
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You're asking them to do something that isn't trasmitted on the normal bitcoin infrastructure. To this point the blockchain has been agnostic, so this is abnormal. How is that statement bitcoin-hostile? Bitcoin doesn't have Counterparty support. I'm asking them to use a temporary side-channel in addition to normal relaying-to-random-nodes until the Bitcoin network has upgraded to support Counterparty.
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Benefits for Bitcoin users Counterparty provides us (Bitcoins users) the ability issue shares, pay dividends and trade on a distributed exchange using BTC (without the need for XCP). This is a valuable functionality for all Bitcoin users and increases Bitcoin's value proposition. It is not in the best interest of Bitcoin users to shutdown this valuable functionality. Especially when there are competitors like - - Ethereum, Nxt, Protoshares, eMunie whom will have asset trading platforms built into their blockchain. Unfortunately, it sounds like the Counterparty team is not interested in being a teamplayer and working with Bitcoin development, and giving Bitcoin no choice but to activate self-defences. Please distinguish between Counterparty "team" members (there are only two developers) and the supporters, fans, and investors (the rest of us) who are certainly feeling frustrated and confused, and can't always make sense of what seem like arbitrary rules. PhantomPhreak is one of the two listed, and has expressed that he is only willing to do things under certain Bitcoin-hostile terms. We're not going to regress from relaying our transactions through the main Bitcoin network to relaying them, through central points of failure, directly to some subset of mining pools that have specifically whitelisted us with a patch. We won't depend on any feature not supported by vanilla Bitcoin Core, even if it means storing the message data in unprunable, (or even unspendable!) outputs for the time being.
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Benefits for Bitcoin users Counterparty provides us (Bitcoins users) the ability issue shares, pay dividends and trade on a distributed exchange using BTC (without the need for XCP). This is a valuable functionality for all Bitcoin users and increases Bitcoin's value proposition. It is not in the best interest of Bitcoin users to shutdown this valuable functionality. Especially when there are competitors like - - Ethereum, Nxt, Protoshares, eMunie whom will have asset trading platforms built into their blockchain. Unfortunately, it sounds like the Counterparty team is not interested in being a teamplayer and working with Bitcoin development, and giving Bitcoin no choice but to activate self-defences.
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it is plainly clear that the firmware shipped on the OSM boards is hard coded with a response the version command. if this is so and you have access to the source it would need modified to 15. if not could you request cscape recompile a fw specifically for the OSM boards with this modification.
Following this post, i will be trying to hack together a modification to bfgminer's Bifury driver to see if this fixes the poor performance.
the issue lies in the way bfgminer uses the FW response to VERSION to allocate and setup the queue. since it replies only 2 chip in the response the other 12 are left hungry as f*** and any values they find arent being logged since as far as BFG knows they dont exist BFGMiner uses the chip count only to determine how many chips will be returning submits, not to determine how much work is needed. Although earlier Bi*fury firmwares were buggy, for which BFGMiner's driver has code to workaround until it receives the first needwork message, but I don't see how that could affect this. I'll be quite honest bfgminers BiFury driver needs a lot of work. Just from looking it seems that on every poll it tells the device to flush, set target, and set maxroll. No idea how much workload that is on the PIC but I'm sure several times a second can't be light. No, it only sends these once on initialisation (device open)... Flushing occurs when there is a work update too. Also, a low maxroll value is also bad for performance. For instance, with maxroll = 0, a single OSM board needs about 11-12 work items per second to keep busy. And if the boards are chained through the serial link, they could require nearly 200 work items per second. That's a lot. Setting maxroll to 60, only requires 1/60th of the workload, so about 1 work item every 5 seconds for a board. There is definitely room to improve this, but it wasn't necessary for bi*fury and incompatible with getwork pools. In addition, it is good to send the pool difficulty to the board using 'target' command, to avoid unnecessary traffic going the other way. BFGMiner uses diff 1 nonces to provide more reliable statistics. Perhaps this can be made configurable if there's a need. As for why it's performing worse, I'd be happy to look into it. Are you planning to send a sample unit to developers?
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I'm sorry, what's the problem with changing the limit in IsStandard() back to 80 bytes? I have yet to see any argument for why 40 is better than 80, and using the latter value would benefit everyone involved immediately. For relay, probably no immediate problem. For mining, it encourages spam. For long-term, it's unnecessary. Edit: Except that relaying transactions which will never be mined is currently exploitable. So either that would need to be fixed first, or the relay needs to be more intelligent and only relay Counterparty transactions the same way miners would mine them. If the issue is spam control, then wouldn't that be negated a variable fee based upon based upon the level of risk that spam may be contained within the transaction? Such a variable fee in this case is non-linear to the amount of 'risky' data attached. It would remove the arbitrary nature of 40 or 80 bytes. It is difficult to predict what is necessary or unnecessary in the future. What if I wish to publish into the ledger the the daily fixings of the history of a 500 million dollar notional interest rate swap. Perhaps at that juncture in the future we would decide it was inappropriate to be stored in the blockchain. However, if it was appropriate I would certainly be willing to pay a larger premium to place it into the ledger. It's never appropriate to use the blockchain as storage. Even if you pay a fee*, there will almost certainly still be some Bitcoin user who doesn't want to provide you with the storage. If you want to pay people to store data for you, there's Amazon. If you need to timestamp the data, merge mine a timestamping service. * the fee to compensate for storage in the blockchain would far exceed Amazon's storage costs, btw
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I'm sorry, what's the problem with changing the limit in IsStandard() back to 80 bytes? I have yet to see any argument for why 40 is better than 80, and using the latter value would benefit everyone involved immediately. For relay, probably no immediate problem. For mining, it encourages spam. For long-term, it's unnecessary. Edit: Except that relaying transactions which will never be mined is currently exploitable. So either that would need to be fixed first, or the relay needs to be more intelligent and only relay Counterparty transactions the same way miners would mine them.
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Redesigning the protocol to make it better is one thing. Trying to shoehorn it into a completely arbitrary 40-byte space is not. I'm not suggesting trying to shrink it to 40 bytes. I'm suggesting keeping the current 80-byte OP_RETURN implementation in the short-term, and building an upgrade for the long-term using a side-chain (ideally collaborative with Freimarkets, since they seem to be doing the same thing). We're not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. We're talking about the default relay policy for Bitcoin Core. If it were a matter of forcing anyone to do anything, why would a 40-byte OP_RETURN OK and not an 80-byte OP_RETURN (again, the original, publicly-announced, merged-into-the-codebase plan)? 40-byte OP_RETURN is potentially unavoidable for some things (no, I don't know any examples). Once there is a patch that relays Counterparty transactions (and not spam), you're certainly free to open a merge request for mainline as well. You might have better success, if the patch is also able to understand Counterparty protocol and not relay invalid Counterparty transactions. We're not going to regress from relaying our transactions through the main Bitcoin network to relaying them, through central points of failure, directly to some subset of mining pools that have specifically whitelisted us with a patch. We won't depend on any feature not supported by vanilla Bitcoin Core, even if it means storing the message data in unprunable, (or even unspendable!) outputs for the time being. Then you give us no choice but to add better filters to keep out the abuse.
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Redesigning the protocol to make it better is one thing. Trying to shoehorn it into a completely arbitrary 40-byte space is not. I'm not suggesting trying to shrink it to 40 bytes. I'm suggesting keeping the current 80-byte OP_RETURN implementation in the short-term, and building an upgrade for the long-term using a side-chain (ideally collaborative with Freimarkets, since they seem to be doing the same thing). We're not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. We're talking about the default relay policy for Bitcoin Core. If it were a matter of forcing anyone to do anything, why would a 40-byte OP_RETURN OK and not an 80-byte OP_RETURN (again, the original, publicly-announced, merged-into-the-codebase plan)? 40-byte OP_RETURN is potentially unavoidable for some things (no, I don't know any examples). Once there is a patch that relays Counterparty transactions (and not spam), you're certainly free to open a merge request for mainline as well. You might have better success, if the patch is also able to understand Counterparty protocol and not relay invalid Counterparty transactions.
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Wait for Zerocoin to boot BTC out. You prefer an altcoin that requires centralised trust, over a decentralised Bitcoin? Decentralized Bitcoin, which requires getting the permission of ~15 powerful individuals in order to have transactions confirmed; transactions which fully comply with the existing Bitcoin specifications and implementations? Nobody is forcing you to run the reference client. Fork it. Please. And no, the Counterparty writeup is not an "existing Bitcoin specification". For that claim, the developers should collaborate with the existing Bitcoin development community to formally define a BIP.
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Counterparty requirements 1) 80 bytes of data 2) Counterparty transactions are relayed through the network as normal transactions
Do you think it is possible to reach an agreement from your side on how we can achieve these requirements? If so can you think how this could be possible? I don't think those requirements are reasonable. Why does it matter how much data XCP can use, or how the transactions are relayed? What should matter is that people can use it for A, B, and C goals. The technical side is just a matter of implementation, not requirement. We need at least 80 bytes because that's the limit the Counterparty protocol was designed around. Expect to have to change the protocol at some point. No offence intended (this is expected in ordinary development), but the current one is at best a "first draft". The solution you proposed is hackish and political, and needlessly so. If you mean the predefined relays, yes, it is a bit hackish. As is the current protocol generally. But it will work in the short-term, while a better protocol for upgrading to can be designed. We need a simple, robust and standard way of relaying our transactions through the normal and fully decentralised Bitcoin network. We need for our system to have as few points of failure as possible. Forcing others to provide services is not justified by the "need" for it.
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I agree with what you said. Is it correct that we are not at the stage where the fee can be distributed across the network? At the moment those fees we are talking about would be taken by the miners but there is nothing to stop those fees disbursed across the network in the future. It's possible. Whether it's practical, is another more complicated issue Am I correct to say that we don't disagree that: 1) Counterparty messages are financial transactions 2) There is scope to include Counterparty messages in the blockchain as long as : a) It doesn't cause undue burden on the network b) It doesn't open the door for other abuses of data storage in the blockchain This seems fair. Counterparty requirements 1) 80 bytes of data 2) Counterparty transactions are relayed through the network as normal transactions
Do you think it is possible to reach an agreement from your side on how we can achieve these requirements? If so can you think how this could be possible? I don't think those requirements are reasonable. Why does it matter how much data XCP can use, or how the transactions are relayed? What should matter is that people can use it for A, B, and C goals. The technical side is just a matter of implementation, not requirement.
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Wait for Zerocoin to boot BTC out. You prefer an altcoin that requires centralised trust, over a decentralised Bitcoin? Anyhow, hopefully the Zerocash folks will be just another Bitcoin side chain. I was under the impression Zerocoin was supposed to merged on top of bitcoin originally - I haven't read their white paper in detail though. Originally. But the original concept was completely impractical (and still had the centralised trust issue). Real-world utility is essential to the value and success of a crypto-currency, therefore most of the alt projects just seem like moot (especially at the stage where even bitcoin lacks wide-spread adoptation). On the other hand blanket opposition to any kind of innovation on the bitcoin blockchain seems just as counter-productive. The idea behind side-chains is that you will be able to simply move bitcoins across multiple blockchains, with different properties of their own, and back again. This makes them real-world usable, and free to do almost any kind of innovation.
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Although poorly designed mining software (*cough* cgminer) and hardware have forced us to artificially limit it Define this alleged limitation you speak of in a way that can be fixed instead of plain trolling. I don't know exactly why cgminer has this problem; it doesn't affect BFGMiner, so I never bothered investigating it. My guess would be something that causes cgminer to not keep up with generating "struct work"s as fast as the hashers need them. You are still not defining what you perceive as a problem. I have users mining with 50TH off one instance of cgminer, so I say you are just plain trolling now. Try testing with a generation transaction of 100+ kB size. Edit: Also, I would expect it to not affect high-end hosts. Probably just embedded and crappy miner-only hosts.
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