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501  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Pizza for bitcoins? on: November 27, 2013, 09:48:06 PM
Nowadays a 0.02 BTC pizza would be expensive.
Anyone wants to buy a pizza from me? I'll deliver it at your freaking doorstep even if you live in Siberia... For only 5k BTC...

Screw that!  I'd personally build a stone pizza oven in your front yard, and cook exactly one wood baked pizza in it for your family, before taking a sledgehammer to the oven for your kids' entertainment.
502  Other / Off-topic / Re: Any uhhh... water softener guys? on: November 27, 2013, 09:44:11 PM
Usually those kind of softeners operating on a timer, so they are set up with the assumption that the place will be occupied and water will be generally consumed while the salt is injected.  The point of the salt, is to inhibit the desolved minerals in the water from sticking to the insides of the pipes, water heater, etc.  Also, clothes and dishes, but living in one of the hardest water regions on Earth, I can say from experience that softener salts don't really do a whole lot for dishes or clothes.  I grew up on the taste of hard water, and anything else tastes weird to me, so I don't use salt based softeners.  I add TSP to my detergents, etc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisodium_phosphate)

It's unlikely that the softener extends the life of your equiptment enough to justify it's own costs (for a whole house unit, anyway) since it's usually cheaper to replace the water heater, etc. a couple of years early than install and maintain the water softener equptment.  If I were you, I'd consider simply decommisioning the unit, and perhaps install an undersink unit for drinking water and ice.  The deposits of minerals on the insides of pipes is very, very slow.
503  Economy / Economics / Re: How to fix bitcoin on: November 27, 2013, 09:31:31 PM
Quote
but eventually it will be an everyday currency

Maybe it will be, but my question is... SHOULD it be?   It holds "value" pretty well, but my argument is that it does that at the expense of velocity, which I find undesirable.  I think velocity is important for growth, and I think growth is important for making peoples lives better.

Maybe it will be, maybe it won't be.  It doesn't matter what should be.  That said, Bitcoin's max velocity is an order or two magnitude higher than fiat currencies in the absence of a working credit system.  Credit systems depend upon faith and trust a great deal more than even fiat currencies do, and history has shown that such trust is easily lost, and economies built upon readily available credit can break down even faster than they can grow.
504  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-11-27 NYTIMES: A Prediction: Bitcoin Is Doomed to Fail on: November 27, 2013, 09:27:30 PM
Bitcoin is an outlet for the failure of government to manage money well.  Even the article agrees with that.  But what makes anyone think that will change anytime soon or ever?

However, modern governments are enabled by their ability to control the nature of money.  Once they lose that capacity in any significant degree, they also lose much of what has enabled them to grow to their current state.  The US federal government couldn't have ever have grown anywhere near to what it is today without the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.
505  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen. on: November 27, 2013, 08:35:29 PM
This thread has come true for many many people (who have cashed out lol)

Remember - it aint real until its actually in your hands ....

And getting it there isn't super easy.

And Uncle Sam is going to rape you for 20-30% of it ...

Mo money Mo problems ...

Only 20-30%?

God, you US citizens are lucky bastards. I won't tell you the amount of raping that gets an European declaring capital gains of +6 figures - you would cry.

He was lowballing it, anyone who makes a million USD or more usually loses 50% if they try to take it in a lump sum.

Nope, that's income taxes.  Increases in the value of an asset (such as bitcoins owned) is capital gains taxes, which is 20% MAX and normally in the 10 to 12% range in the US.

I'm crying. Really. You don't even know how lucky you are.

I sure do.  But keep in mind that there are other costs.  I don't want the kind of socially involved governments that dominate Europe, but if you like those things, such things do cost money.  If you don't like those kinds fo things, move over here and help us keep it this way.  It's become a hard fight for the past 10 years or so.
506  Bitcoin / Mining support / Re: This doesn't mean what I think it does, does it? on: November 27, 2013, 08:32:45 PM
I don't want to join a pool. I just want to create some heat and have a lottery ticket everyday.


Damn right!  You and me, brother, keeping the Bitcoin network running even if all the pools go up in smoke.
507  Bitcoin / Mining support / Re: This doesn't mean what I think it does, does it? on: November 27, 2013, 08:09:58 PM
No, sorry.  It means what it says, that a new block has been detected, not that you found it.

EDIT: Actually, it could mean that.  Check the balance of your address associated with block generation.
508  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The $1000 Bitcoin, yes it's worth at least that. on: November 27, 2013, 08:01:32 PM
Bitcoin broke through the $1000 per BTC price point today, November 27th, 2013 on the MtGox exchange.
509  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen. on: November 27, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
This thread has come true for many many people (who have cashed out lol)

Remember - it aint real until its actually in your hands ....

And getting it there isn't super easy.

And Uncle Sam is going to rape you for 20-30% of it ...

Mo money Mo problems ...

Only 20-30%?

God, you US citizens are lucky bastards. I won't tell you the amount of raping that gets an European declaring capital gains of +6 figures - you would cry.

He was lowballing it, anyone who makes a million USD or more usually loses 50% if they try to take it in a lump sum.

Nope, that's income taxes.  Increases in the value of an asset (such as bitcoins owned) is capital gains taxes, which is 20% MAX and normally in the 10 to 12% range in the US.

Dumb question... aren't there state capital gains taxes that get added on to the 20%?

Depends upon the state, actually.  Generally yes, though.
510  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen. on: November 27, 2013, 07:55:18 PM
This thread has come true for many many people (who have cashed out lol)

Remember - it aint real until its actually in your hands ....

And getting it there isn't super easy.

And Uncle Sam is going to rape you for 20-30% of it ...

Mo money Mo problems ...

Only 20-30%?

God, you US citizens are lucky bastards. I won't tell you the amount of raping that gets an European declaring capital gains of +6 figures - you would cry.

He was lowballing it, anyone who makes a million USD or more usually loses 50% if they try to take it in a lump sum.

Nope, that's income taxes.  Increases in the value of an asset (such as bitcoins owned) is capital gains taxes, which is 20% MAX and normally in the 10 to 12% range in the US.
511  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen. on: November 27, 2013, 07:53:18 PM
Are you currently putting all your money into bitcoin?  If you say this, you show you believe it by your actions.  I am putting all my money into bitcoin - I see a possibility of $50-$100+ per coin this year.  Just think, once the "bankers" and hedge funds find out about this, we are going to the moon.  Once my bitcoins are $1,000+ I will be able to pay off my growing college loans and maybe get an apartment, and my first car Smiley

so, are you? Smiley

He's probably living somewhere on his private island, with the 13 beautiful wives he bought.  Doesn't have much time to check the internet or respond to thread Sad

Actually, he can't.  He was finally banned with prejudice.
512  Economy / Economics / Re: Peter Schiff on Bitcoin on: November 27, 2013, 07:27:22 PM
I like Peter, he was economic advisor to Ron Paul during his 2008 campaign. They are both great advocates of Austrian economics and ran with the intention of educating the public about the dangers of fiat currency. I know I wouldn't have understood the importance of Bitcoin if not for these guys, Ron Paul in particular.

However I do think he's wrong on this. I suppose I can't blame him, it's devastating to his business Cool
I really want Peter to be wrong on this.  But I keep thinking about it.  The more I do, the more I believe he's right. Honestly, unless businesses keep bitcoin, save it, and pay wages, etc, it can't proliferate. 

I'll get to the rest in a minute, but I have to ask this question.  Concerning the claim I highlighted, why can't Bitcoin proliferate without businesses paying wages in it?  How many businesses pay their wages in silver or gold?  How many businesses pay their wages with Paypal or Western Union?  You've been looking at Bitcoin wrong, I think.  It's not a replacement for fiat currencies, although it could work for that.  It's a replacement for a significant part of the financial infrastucture that presently permits online commerce.  That's a multi-billion dollar a year industry that employs tens of thousands of people to produce nothing at all.

Quote

What if everyone accepted bitcoin?  That's only good if they keep it.

Why?


Quote
 But the major majority of businesses sell it immediately after the transaction.  


Yes, a majority do this.  That majority is (primarily) using Bitcoin as a payment method; as a replacement for credit cards & Paypal.  That leaves a minority of businesses that do not do this, or at least do not do this exclusively.  Some people are, indeed, saving in Bitcoins.

Quote
This is unsustainable and consistent with a pyramid like structure.


How?

Quote
If Peter knows one thing, it's bubbles.  Everytime he comes out against something, he's attacked by its proponents to no avail.

First, he's not really being attacked by the Bitcoin community.  If he didn't have any respect here, there wouldn't be so much concern for his opinion.  And while Peter does know bubbles, he isn't without errors.  He's had his own misses, although his accuracy is far greater than the average Joe.  Furthermore, I don't think that anyone here is really claiming that Bitcoin couldn't be in a bubble.  It certainly could be.  Bitcoin has been through a half dozen bubbles and pops since I've been here, one more bubble is unlikely to destroy it.  Peter's complaints are that Bitcoin has neither any "intrinsic value" nor backing by a state as legal tender.  These are both (generally) true statements, but are both mostly true with gold as well, and yet gold persists as a monetary asset.  The answer is that many people have faith in Bitcoin for very different reasons than they might for gold.  Peter is a smart guy, but he's missing this one, and he's not alone.  It's perfectly fine that Bitcoin has detractors, if it was all roses with no complaints, I'd be worried that all of us were overlooking a potential problem.  Personally, I'm happy that Peter argues against it, and that others try to change his mind.  This kind of very public debate is healthy for Bitcoin. both technically and phsycologically.
513  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Pizza for bitcoins? on: November 27, 2013, 12:04:17 AM
What ever happened to this Laszlo fella? Anybody know?

Yes.  He still comes around every now and again, but mostly has left for other pursuits.  This forum is full of noise these days, and he probably doesn't see any reason to be slumming.  He's not bitcoin broke, either.
514  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin even more broken than previously thought on: November 27, 2013, 12:02:01 AM
Wow, Heinleinisms, you must be like some sort of sooperhackerd00dsavantmuthafukka.

Whilst you may be chagrined to learn this, I'm afraid I must inform you that brilliance is not communicable. You can hang from the coattails of luminaries, but your star shall shine no brighter as a result. Take heed little grasshopper: know thy limits, lest thy limits be known by all.

I'm not threatened by others being aware that I have limits, and while brilliance may not be communicable, understanding most certainly is.  You could be every bit as brilliant as you seem to believe, but you still lack understanding.
515  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin even more broken than previously thought on: November 26, 2013, 11:26:02 PM
The cognitive dissonance here is astounding. I have the utmost faith in virtual currencies as a technology and Bitcoin as the best example of that technology, but why is it that any attack on Bitcoin is 'trolling'; technologies survive by mending their flaws. The fact that this level of theorization is going on around the protocol means it's getting somewhere.

It's an interesting article and brings up an important question to consider; whether it's implementable in practice is another question. I'll definitely respect a Cornell professor to know what he's talking about. The arrogant dismissiveness on these forums is stunning.

Agreed.  It's rather shocking that such comments are dismissed outright.  Have you all even looked at the credentials of the person who wrote the article linked to by revan?  It's a professor who works at Cornell.  Not quite some no name guy with no credentials just randomly making comments about Bitcoin.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

It doesn't much matter who the author may be, only what the argument is.  Speaking for myself, I very rarely see actual arguments presented on this forum anymore.  And when that does happen, it's generally due to a misunderstanding of the protocol by the author.  I'm not saying that this article doesn't have merit, but it doesn't have merit because it was presented by a professor from Cornell.


The worst logical fallacy is the misuse of logical fallacies as a way of trying to win in argument. It was not an appeal to authority anyway, as it was not said that this guy is necessarily correct because he is a Cornell professor, rather it was stated that to summarily dismiss his work given his credentials and reputation would be stupid as it seems unlikely he would be making claims he could not defend with solid arguments.

It was implied, and you damn well know it.
516  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin even more broken than previously thought on: November 26, 2013, 11:24:15 PM
I was referring to a client bug which allowed someone to credit themselves a few billion Bitcoins. There was another big which was discovered before it got exploited which would have allowed users to spend the balance of any other user.

You're going to have to prove those events happened, because as far as I know, that is still impossible.  There was a bug that permitted someone to create a custom transaction to credit themselves a negative balance, but why would anyone do that?

There was a Namecoin bug which allowed anyone to spend anyone else's namecoins. Basically, the code didn't check to see whether the signature was valid.

It was exploited, and the fix was to allow those transactions in the blockchain but ignore them, and then after a certain block number there is a hard fork.

So, something similar to that is possible, but it's also possible to effectively reverse.

It is not fair to accuse Bitcoin of being insecure because of faults found in alt-coins.


Is it fair for me to have to correct cretins all the time?


Congratulations.  You have the honor of being one of the very few people on this forum that were able to tell me something about Bitcoin that I didn't already know.  Don't assume that because you knew this little factoid, that you really grok bitcoin on the same level as myself.  I'm not a programmer, but nor am I stupid.  I was here for years in the company of brilliant people who were actualy building the bitcoin economy; and was able to converse with these same founders before all of this useless noise infested the forum and most of those same brilliant people left the forums.  There are now more than 160K registered forum members.  I remember having these kinds of arguments with detractors when one of the arguments was, "not even 10K people have even heard of a bitcoin, it'll never even reach parity with the dollar!"  Seriously, this isn't even the same forum anymore.  It's filled with programmers who don't undertand economics, economists who don't understand human psychology, psycologists who don't understand cryptology, and laymen who don't understand any of it; while they all think they are f*cking polymaths!
517  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin even more broken than previously thought on: November 26, 2013, 11:11:05 PM
The cognitive dissonance here is astounding. I have the utmost faith in virtual currencies as a technology and Bitcoin as the best example of that technology, but why is it that any attack on Bitcoin is 'trolling'; technologies survive by mending their flaws. The fact that this level of theorization is going on around the protocol means it's getting somewhere.

It's an interesting article and brings up an important question to consider; whether it's implementable in practice is another question. I'll definitely respect a Cornell professor to know what he's talking about. The arrogant dismissiveness on these forums is stunning.

Agreed.  It's rather shocking that such comments are dismissed outright.  Have you all even looked at the credentials of the person who wrote the article linked to by revan?  It's a professor who works at Cornell.  Not quite some no name guy with no credentials just randomly making comments about Bitcoin.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

It doesn't much matter who the author may be, only what the argument is.  Speaking for myself, I very rarely see actual arguments presented on this forum anymore.  And when that does happen, it's generally due to a misunderstanding of the protocol by the author.  I'm not saying that this article doesn't have merit, but it doesn't have merit because it was presented by a professor from Cornell.
518  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin even more broken than previously thought on: November 26, 2013, 11:04:03 PM
bitcoin is software.

bugs can be fixed. i think we are beyond the point where even a major flaw would make it disappear. since there is so much money in the game, it will get handled ith care and common interest.

No, Bitcoin isn't software. Bitcoin is belief in the integrity of the block chain. Bitcoin survived a breach of that integrity early on in its development, but I doubt it would survive one now.

That wasn't much of a breach, it was more like a bug.  There wasn't any way that anyone could still funds, fake a bitcoin balance, or some such.  There was a bug that permitted a fairly effective DDOS attack on the network, thereby preventing transactions from processing.  The integrity of the blockchain, nor it's security model, was ever in peril.


I was referring to a client bug which allowed someone to credit themselves a few billion Bitcoins. There was another big which was discovered before it got exploited which would have allowed users to spend the balance of any other user.

You're going to have to prove those events happened, because as far as I know, that is still impossible.  There was a bug that permitted someone to create a custom transaction to credit themselves a negative balance, but why would anyone do that?


https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures


It's amongst this list

*edit* I realise you're a lazy douchebag so I'll actually paste the description here


"On August 15 2010, it was discovered that block 74638 contained a transaction that created over 184 billion bitcoins for two different addresses. This was possible because the code used for checking transactions before including them in a block didn't account for the case of outputs so large that they overflowed when summed. A new version was published within a few hours of the discovery. The block chain had to be forked. Although many unpatched nodes continued to build on the "bad" block chain, the "good" block chain overtook it at a block height of 74691. The bad transaction no longer exists for people using the longest chain."


and the other I mentioned

"On July 28 2010, two bugs were discovered and demonstrated on the test network. One exploited a bug in the transaction handling code and allowed an attacker to spend coins that they did not own. This was never exploited on the main network, and was fixed by Bitcoin version 0.3.5.
After these bugs were discovered, many currently-unused script words were disabled for safety."


If either of those happened again it could easily wipe Bitcoin out.

Well, I stand corrected.  And yes, if either of those could ever happened again, it could wipe bitcoin out.  I'll give you that.  What are the odds that either of these expoits could be used agian, do you think?
519  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin even more broken than previously thought on: November 26, 2013, 11:01:16 PM
I was referring to a client bug which allowed someone to credit themselves a few billion Bitcoins. There was another big which was discovered before it got exploited which would have allowed users to spend the balance of any other user.

You're going to have to prove those events happened, because as far as I know, that is still impossible.  There was a bug that permitted someone to create a custom transaction to credit themselves a negative balance, but why would anyone do that?

There was a Namecoin bug which allowed anyone to spend anyone else's namecoins. Basically, the code didn't check to see whether the signature was valid.

It was exploited, and the fix was to allow those transactions in the blockchain but ignore them, and then after a certain block number there is a hard fork.

So, something similar to that is possible, but it's also possible to effectively reverse.

It is not fair to accuse Bitcoin of being insecure because of faults found in alt-coins.
520  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin even more broken than previously thought on: November 26, 2013, 10:47:30 PM
bitcoin is software.

bugs can be fixed. i think we are beyond the point where even a major flaw would make it disappear. since there is so much money in the game, it will get handled ith care and common interest.

No, Bitcoin isn't software. Bitcoin is belief in the integrity of the block chain. Bitcoin survived a breach of that integrity early on in its development, but I doubt it would survive one now.

That wasn't much of a breach, it was more like a bug.  There wasn't any way that anyone could still funds, fake a bitcoin balance, or some such.  There was a bug that permitted a fairly effective DDOS attack on the network, thereby preventing transactions from processing.  The integrity of the blockchain, nor it's security model, was ever in peril.


I was referring to a client bug which allowed someone to credit themselves a few billion Bitcoins. There was another big which was discovered before it got exploited which would have allowed users to spend the balance of any other user.

You're going to have to prove those events happened, because as far as I know, that is still impossible.  There was a bug that permitted someone to create a custom transaction to credit themselves a negative balance, but why would anyone do that?
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