If Greece defaults

[bigtimespaghetti]

I think that media is doing Greece a favor actually. Why? because people is going to react and work on ways for paying the debt, they will have to fix it one way or the other. It means they have to change a lot of things, not only in the government, but everyone has to change, from lazy couch potatoes to smart hard workers. In my country we had total economic devastation during the 1990s, the government made radical decisions and everyone had to work hard to restore the economy, we used to owe 30k million US$, 20 years after we now lend money to poor countries. A miracle called Peru!

In short, just let it go as deep as Greece people need to realize that the solution requires of everyone participation.

That is an incredibly collectivist lens to view this situation through. I assume you are referring to Fujimori- his reforms were not miraculous (though they might seem so considering Peru's politcal history), simply reversing some of the collectivist madness that Peru had suffered up until then, many of his style of reforms will probably not be enacted in Greece any time soon. The Greeks likely feel cheated and resentful of the financial system that has allowed their government to mire themselves in this situation, there may be a will to work but the majority of young Greeks with any initiative have or will be trying to leave their home country.

I disagree with your collectivist viewpoint that everyone needs to pitch in for something that they really didn't understand or truly have a say in, but I agree that change will come when maximum pain is reached.

[bryant.coleman]

They certainly do not need to. But it's wether it will be more painful to continue the current path or strike out for instant pain and faster recovery. I'm very interested to see what the ultimate outcome will be. As an earlier post wrote, it's also about setting a precedent for the situation.

Either Greece should be given more time to pay back its debt, or it should be written off. It is painful to continue the current path, when a large part of the population can't even afford their basic needs.

[qiwoman2]

Greece is positioned in a very strategic position. It would not benefit the U.S if there was a Grexit so this battle has higher powers..Greece is actually in a great position to pick and choose it's allies. It doesn't even need to grovel to the Eurozone for mercy. We always know the Media likes to hyper inflate news to get good ratings. There are powers also that want do demolish the Leftist Government of SYRIZA but the People are too strong and it has Big Friends too..Russia and China..  .. The do want to stay in Europe but they want to get the message across, Greece wants to be a apart of Europe but at the same time keep it's sovereignty intact and to fight corruption and tax evasion from within.

[BillyBobZorton]

Greece is positioned in a very strategic position. It would not benefit the U.S if there was a Grexit so this battle has higher powers..Greece is actually in a great position to pick and choose it's allies. It doesn't even need to grovel to the Eurozone for mercy. We always know the Media likes to hyper inflate news to get good ratings. There are powers also that want do demolish the Leftist Government of SYRIZA but the People are too strong and it has Big Friends too..Russia and China..  .. The do want to stay in Europe but they want to get the message across, Greece wants to be a apart of Europe but at the same time keep it's sovereignty intact and to fight corruption and tax evasion from within.

Im just thinking that if they do become allies with Russia and China, they'll become Russia and China's bitch. It's an exchange of who you owe stuff to. Their situation is not easy at all, debts always have to be paid.

[GreenStox]

We have €448m to the International Monetary Fund is due this Thursday (April 9th).

Then we have public sector wages and pensions, €1.7b in social security payments made by the state (April 14th).

Then we have a €200m loan repayment to the IMF (May 1st).

Now correct me if I am wrong, but if Greece cant pay any of these 3 bills we are talking about the first "western modern" country to be technically in default. If they resort back to the Drachma, it will be one of the most worthless currencies on the planet.

What I cant really figure out is the outcome, both worldwide financially against the Euro, and obviously against Bitcoin. Will we see BTC as safe heaven? Something tells me only a little, because the average Greek is not highly IT literate, but I could be wrong here.

Give me your thoughts people, as this goes down in about 3 days from now!

Nobody will default nowadays, because it will bring down the whole system, even if they want, they wont let them.

They will just print themselves out of all troubles!

[GreenStox]

The Euro is as flawed as the USD today, its part of the same rotten construct.

So don't jawbone about Greece until the cows come home.

Greece is nothing, the geoplolitics of financial war and reset vital to THREE generations of first world people IS the real agenda.

And that is more than some piddling principle on which people start frothing at the mouth.

Haircuts are invevitable and they will be painful for all.

It's really time to end socialism and communism dont you think its been far too long...

It's economically impossible to sustain this ponzi scheme of welfare states, time to move on

[Hazir]

The Euro is as flawed as the USD today, its part of the same rotten construct.

So don't jawbone about Greece until the cows come home.

Greece is nothing, the geoplolitics of financial war and reset vital to THREE generations of first world people IS the real agenda.

And that is more than some piddling principle on which people start frothing at the mouth.

Haircuts are invevitable and they will be painful for all.

It's really time to end socialism and communism dont you think its been far too long...

It's economically impossible to sustain this ponzi scheme of welfare states, time to move on

,
It is not exactly the ponzi scheme of welfare states. As you can see there are couple of welfare states that are doing exceptionally well, for example look at Scandinavia as a whole. Countries like Norway or Sweden are considered to be prime examples of great working welfare states. People who lives there are happy to be there and happy to pay high taxes to sustain that model of state. There is a problem when too many people are trying to exploit freebies of welfare states like Greeks did in the past.

[pereira4]

The Euro is as flawed as the USD today, its part of the same rotten construct.

So don't jawbone about Greece until the cows come home.

Greece is nothing, the geoplolitics of financial war and reset vital to THREE generations of first world people IS the real agenda.

And that is more than some piddling principle on which people start frothing at the mouth.

Haircuts are invevitable and they will be painful for all.

It's really time to end socialism and communism dont you think its been far too long...

It's economically impossible to sustain this ponzi scheme of welfare states, time to move on

Have fun finding a solution that isn't basic welfare for the massive permanent unemployment due technological automation destroying more jobs than new jobs can be created that is going to be exponential forever.

[GreenStox]

Have fun finding a solution that isn't basic welfare for the massive permanent unemployment due technological automation destroying more jobs than new jobs can be created that is going to be exponential forever.

Yes sure its never the regulation and the socialist welfare taxes that destroy jobs but always the nasty capitalists.

You live in a fantasy, capitalists create jobs, socialists steal the money earned there by hard working people!

[Cluster2k]

Greece will not actually default.  There's too much to lose for German, French, Austrian, and other banks for that to happen.  What may occur instead is a 'haircut' or 'easing' or some other weak weasel word so that credit default swaps are not triggered.  It won't be a default but a 'financial restructuring', or a 'temporary fiscal moderation'. 

The rest of Europe is happy to keep helping Greece pay its debt by driving Greece further into debt.  If it wasn't so insane it would be funny.

[aso118]

Greece will not actually default.  There's too much to lose for German, French, Austrian, and other banks for that to happen.  What may occur instead is a 'haircut' or 'easing' or some other weak weasel word so that credit default swaps are not triggered.  It won't be a default but a 'financial restructuring', or a 'temporary fiscal moderation'. 

The rest of Europe is happy to keep helping Greece pay its debt by driving Greece further into debt.  If it wasn't so insane it would be funny.

You can be sure that bondholders will go to court with the argument that any kind of haircut is indeed a default. The CDS sellers sold the bondholders protection against Greek defaulting. No reason why they shouldn't be made to pay.

[ThomasCrowne]

I seriously doubt Greece will end up defaulting.  Despite the hard-lined stance their leadership has tried to portray these past few weeks I have a sneaking suspicion that they will end up capitulating in the end.  Don't they all?

[manselr]

Only by loaning MORE money to a Bankrupt, can the Emperor keep the illusion he is not naked.  Can Greece possbily repay the original terms of the loan.  NO.   What will happen.   Some one will screw up and push the other side too far.  Will it be the EU or GREECE.  Don't matter, the consequences are the same and if fact still the same to the West if Greece is pushed into the East/Eurasian/Bricky camp of Russia, China, et al.

[ashour]

They certainly do not need to. But it's wether it will be more painful to continue the current path or strike out for instant pain and faster recovery. I'm very interested to see what the ultimate outcome will be. As an earlier post wrote, it's also about setting a precedent for the situation.

Either Greece should be given more time to pay back its debt, or it should be written off. It is painful to continue the current path, when a large part of the population can't even afford their basic needs.

I don't think that Greece should get more time to pay off the debt because there is no point to waste more time, Greece will never repay its debt and it will probably default soon as s country.

[Mike Christ]

Greece will either shape up and pay back the money they owe, losing their sovereignty in the process to their debtors, or give up getting loans and segue into a centrally planned economy.  Neither are particularly positive for the Greeks but hey, you get what you voted for.

If they do the former, they can manage to pay off their debtors over a very long period of hard work and sacrifice, who can then pay off their own debtors, on and on.  If they do the latter, they're fucked long-term (see: Venezuela), and their debtors won't be able to repay the loans they owe to other nations, which reportedly will have a "domino effect" where more and more nations go under because the money they were hoping to get back from their loans will be completely gone.

Imagine loaning your friend 2000$ expecting a 2100$ return by the end of the month; however, instead of doing something with this money, your friend decides to live off it for a while and when it comes time to pay back, he asks you for another 2000$ and for the previous debt to be forgiven--he wants to be bailed out.  Foolishly you forgive this debt on the condition that he shape up and get his life together, so he agrees, you give him another 2000$ loan w/ interest, and when the end of the month comes, he again says he does not have the money and wants another bail-out.  You tell him to go fuck himself and if he doesn't come up with the money he owes you in another month he's gonna get his kneecaps blown to pieces (jk you just won't like him anymore and will stop giving him any more money.)  Your friend (loose use of the term anyway) is pretty upset but understands, he asks for some time to get the money together.  You say okay, and give him this time.  However, the guy you owe debt to is now knocking on your door asking for the money he lent you, with interest; you tell him that you'll have this money by the end of the month, when your friend pays you back.  He says okay and so the end of the month comes: your friend still doesn't have the money and is now telling you to go fuck yourself, you capitalist pig you.  The guy you owe money to is now in the hole as well; he tells you that if you don't pay him back, he's never gonna loan money to you ever again.

Thing is, you really need this money your debtor has been lending to you, you are dependent in some way on these loans; if he stops lending you money, you're completely fucked, too.  Tensions rise: you start banging on your friend's door demanding he pay back what is owed to you, but he has no money; he has resorted to living in a commune with a bunch of stoners who are broke as broke can be, and they all laugh at you for giving any of them any money you freaking moron.  You can't pay back the guy you owe money to; your livelihood is at stake to some degree; you may have to lower your quality of life and get into further debt with someone else, assuming you can find anyone who will lend to a man who won't pay his loans back (check out the lending subforum for what this looks like.)  The guy who you owe money to can no longer pay the guy he owes; he, too, is completely fucked.  This guy also has a guy he owes money to; that guy, you can probably guess, is completely fucked too.  That's the domino effect: everyone's getting fucked because someone down the line was a lazy douche.  Not everyone gets affected; some people can survive without the loans, but others are totally dependent on them and will be in a heap of shit if they can't keep getting those loans.

If Greece defaults, other nations may also default, and depending on how much they needed those loans to sustain their way of life (political favors and whatnot; welfare ain't free kiddos), this can be a massive issue for economies and political entities the world over, since everyone and their moms are in debt nowadays.  Not necessarily a bad thing; maybe it'll be a wakeup call for people to take control over their money and stop letting politicians and banks play with it.  Anyway, someone's bound to die from it all; someone always dies from something this massive.

[GreenStox]

........

Its democracy, what did you expected. Every idiot who can put a stamp on a piece of paper can project his own insecurity and foolishness onto the other people, therefore every democracy will fail as a result.

You know my guess is that every fucking democracy on earn will end up leftist/socialist, because the ever growing debt thats accumulated by bribing voters, will result in a perpetual tax increase to pay off the interest on the bonds.

An ever increasing tax always hurts the middle class, the poors dont pay taxes they get subsidies and welfare, and the rich also dont pay coz they bribe the politicians.

So every democracy will eventually eliminate the middle class, and when it is eliminated the rich people flee the country, and only the poor is left so you need to steal from eachother through a socialist/communist regime.

Yes socialism is the deathbed state of democracy, and they will both fall eventually.

[aso118]

........

Its democracy, what did you expected. Every idiot who can put a stamp on a piece of paper can project his own insecurity and foolishness onto the other people, therefore every democracy will fail as a result.

You know my guess is that every fucking democracy on earn will end up leftist/socialist, because the ever growing debt thats accumulated by bribing voters, will result in a perpetual tax increase to pay off the interest on the bonds.

You underestimate the intelligence of people. 
In this globalized world, people can look at different countries and see how capitalist / socialist economies have fared. One of the reasons why communist regimes collapsed is that people realized life in capitalist countries was much better.

[GreenStox]

........

Its democracy, what did you expected. Every idiot who can put a stamp on a piece of paper can project his own insecurity and foolishness onto the other people, therefore every democracy will fail as a result.

You know my guess is that every fucking democracy on earn will end up leftist/socialist, because the ever growing debt thats accumulated by bribing voters, will result in a perpetual tax increase to pay off the interest on the bonds.

You underestimate the intelligence of people. 
In this globalized world, people can look at different countries and see how capitalist / socialist economies have fared. One of the reasons why communist regimes collapsed is that people realized life in capitalist countries was much better.

I`m not communist bro, i`m voluntaryst/libertarian like Mike. I`m against democracy because it's just another scam of the tyrants to fool people into subjugating their individuality before the collective.

The tyrants always like to pull up mirages before their slaves to make them think they are free, when they are obviously not. Democracy is one of them. It's very far from freedom.

For freedom to be achieved the collective must be dismantled.

[Sithara007]

........

Its democracy, what did you expected. Every idiot who can put a stamp on a piece of paper can project his own insecurity and foolishness onto the other people, therefore every democracy will fail as a result.

You know my guess is that every fucking democracy on earn will end up leftist/socialist, because the ever growing debt thats accumulated by bribing voters, will result in a perpetual tax increase to pay off the interest on the bonds.

You underestimate the intelligence of people. 
In this globalized world, people can look at different countries and see how capitalist / socialist economies have fared. One of the reasons why communist regimes collapsed is that people realized life in capitalist countries was much better.

I`m not communist bro, i`m voluntaryst/libertarian like Mike. I`m against democracy because it's just another scam of the tyrants to fool people into subjugating their individuality before the collective.

The tyrants always like to pull up mirages before their slaves to make them think they are free, when they are obviously not. Democracy is one of them. It's very far from freedom.

For freedom to be achieved the collective must be dismantled.

You see, democracy is the best mirage among all the mirage. That's why most countries are moving towards it. Even, look at the Middle East Spring...they all are running for it.

[GreenStox]

You see, democracy is the best mirage among all the mirage. That's why most countries are moving towards it. Even, look at the Middle East Spring...they all are running for it.

Well dont get me wrong, its a relatively good thing compared to what was before.

Ancient Egypt: Slaves carried huge stones and were chained and whipped
Ancient Rome: Slaves could marry but they were bound to the household like servants and got no pay
Feudal Europe: Serfs could buy now land but only near their lord and they got payments but not much
Today: Serfs  today can work anywhere, but work 12 hours and the maffia government taxes them 70-80% (direct+indirect tax) and they are illusioned that every 4 year stamping on a fucking piece of paper is going to change society.

So it's better and better but not quite there yet don't you think?