If Greece defaults

[deisik]

well rusia can make a unlimited income to greece i doubt troika will stop those potencial incomes from the country that is loosing more and more all the time... the only way to avoid be out of europe that dindnt happened till the moment is wait russia to start the project .otherwise we will see greece taking more money or just out of eurozone in the next months... too many pression already

It is not that simple. If the EU allows Russia to build the Turkish Stream pipeline through Greece, then Ukraine will lose billions of USD worth of revenue every year in terms of lost gas transport fees. It will destroy the already damaged Ukrainian economy. The EU will have to make a very tough choice. Either it should allow Ukraine to collapse, or it should forget about the Greek debt.

I guess you are misguided about the real situation with respect to Ukraine. Actually, you are placing the effect where its cause should be. It is not Russia bypassing its gas pipelines around Ukraine that would kill Ukraine's economy (or greatly contribute to its demise). Ukraine's economy is already destroyed (the country lives, or, rather, lived off debts, since now it is in a phase of final meltdown), its gas pipelines are decrepit and falling apart (being a Soviet legacy), and it makes absolutely no sense for Russia to consider what will remain of Ukraine in a matter of months as a gas transporter...

It is in Europe's best interests to build the Turkish Stream (southern parts of Europe, at least)

[bryant.coleman]

It is in Europe's best interests to build the Turkish Stream (southern parts of Europe, at least)

There are multiple factors in play here. It might be Europe's best interests to build the Turkish Stream. But you should remember that almost all the Western European nations are simply vassals of the United States. They should seek the permission from the US first, to allow the construction of the Turkish Stream through Greece.

The US, on the otherhand want to prevent Russians from supplying piped natural gas to Europe. They want the Europeans to source their gas from either the American suppliers or from the Qataris.

[tsoPANos]

The future of Greece is together with Putin

Its no joke. Putin will be able to save the Greeks from Financial meltdown. The proposed Turkish stream pipeline will carry around 45 billion cubic meters of gas from Russia to Europe. If the pipeline travels some 1,000 km through Greece, the Greeks will earn around $30 for every 1,000 cubic meter as transit fees. That totals to 1.35 billion USD every year, which will be a huge relief to the debt-ridden nation. And who knows? Putin might even offer advance payments to the Greeks.

Couldn't aggree more.
Putin desperately needs a budy within EU to delay and abort the embargo.
It's not a big deal for Russia, asthe Greek economy is considerably small.
The Greek stream pipeline will compete with TAP.
USA don't like this, as they already tried to avert the Greek government mooves towards Russia.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/09/business/international/greece-us-russia-energy-pipeline.html?_r=0

But since they don't do something to help Greece other than saying "Do Reforms"(here, I don't think just cutting wages and increasing VAT is reforms!), the Greeks willnot stop...

[deisik]

It is in Europe's best interests to build the Turkish Stream (southern parts of Europe, at least)

There are multiple factors in play here. It might be Europe's best interests to build the Turkish Stream. But you should remember that almost all the Western European nations are simply vassals of the United States. They should seek the permission from the US first, to allow the construction of the Turkish Stream through Greece.

The US, on the otherhand want to prevent Russians from supplying piped natural gas to Europe. They want the Europeans to source their gas from either the American suppliers or from the Qataris.

Germany doesn't even have full sovereignty, but this didn't prevent it from securing its future by building the Nord Stream. So it still remains to be seen how much the US is mixed up in all this and what is the limit of their influence through Europe in such matters...

It may just happen to be a power struggle inside Europe itself

[V for Varoufakis]

This will be good for Greece.

[bryant.coleman]

Germany doesn't even have full sovereignty, but this didn't prevent it from securing its future by building the Nord Stream. So it still remains to be seen how much the US is mixed up in all this and what is the limit of their influence through Europe in such matters...

It may just happen to be a power struggle inside Europe itself

You can't compare the political situation which existed when Germany approved the Nord Stream, to the one which is existing right now. Back then, the Russia-EU relations were quite good. But now, it is under quite a lot of strain. It will be very difficult to get the EU approval, for any major pipeline project which will be undertaken by Russia.

[deisik]

Germany doesn't even have full sovereignty, but this didn't prevent it from securing its future by building the Nord Stream. So it still remains to be seen how much the US is mixed up in all this and what is the limit of their influence through Europe in such matters...

It may just happen to be a power struggle inside Europe itself

You can't compare the political situation which existed when Germany approved the Nord Stream, to the one which is existing right now. Back then, the Russia-EU relations were quite good. But now, it is under quite a lot of strain. It will be very difficult to get the EU approval, for any major pipeline project which will be undertaken by Russia.

But the question was how much of the US is behind the recent turmoil in the EU relations with Russia. It is beyond doubt that they have a hand in the events now transpiring, but I doubt that they are the prime driver (despite being the prime beneficiary)...

So you say that in present day conditions Germany wouldn't give its consent to build the Nord Stream?

[bryant.coleman]

So you say that in present day conditions Germany wouldn't give its consent to build the Nord Stream?

Gerhard Schröder was the German chancellor back then. He was more like neutral towards Russia. He made a lot of contributions to the peaceful relationship between Russia and Germany and he wanted to restore the sovereignty of Germany. All that changed when Angela Merkel was voted in to power. She want to make Germany the most loyal vassal state of the United States.

[deisik]

So you say that in present day conditions Germany wouldn't give its consent to build the Nord Stream?

Gerhard Schröder was the German chancellor back then. He was more like neutral towards Russia. He made a lot of contributions to the peaceful relationship between Russia and Germany and he wanted to restore the sovereignty of Germany. All that changed when Angela Merkel was voted in to power. She want to make Germany the most loyal vassal state of the United States.

But you didn't answer my question. Would Germany give its consent to build the Nord Stream today, Merkel or no Merkel? What do you personally think?

[BillyBobZorton]

It doesn't really matter at this point. Greece is no closer to a deal, and no deal will work. Five years' worth of wishful thinking, and they're *still* doing it.

[Gronthaing]

If Germany helps them with a staggered deal, that doesn't solve a single problem here. It juts kicks the can even further down the road, and more debt will pile up and go unpaid.

If you give a junkie another heroin fix, does that cure his drug addiction..? of course not. It might feel good for the moment, but problem still there.

I'm always confused that markets are just looking for a sign of hope that maybe some party will "possibly" lend more money to a broke and insolvent country.

Greece is running a small budget surplus and a small trade surplus for now. Not counting the interest on the debt of course. Problem is they aren't allowed conditions that let them grow the economy again. And that wouldn't even need debt forgiveness or reduction. Which I think should be done. It could be enough to let them have a smaller primary surplus. That means less austerity, and more of the money could be used to rebuild the country.

[BIT-Sharon]

Greece has made an important concession that not only giveing up the former standpoint, but also considering the discussion with Brussel Group which had regular meetings with Greece and its technical team in the past few months .

[Cluster2k]

Greece vs the EU taxpayers and IMF is a fascinating fight. 

On one hand you have a downtrodden population that's sick of austerity and can see no way out.  The situation is hopeless mathematically. 

On the other you have taxpayers who don't want to keep bailing out Greece but also know if they stop then hundreds of billions of Euros in debt will be paid back by them, and not the Greeks.

Varofakis stated last week that he wished Greece had defaulted four years ago.  Greece has gained nothing over the past four years except far more debt than it originally had. 

[bryant.coleman]

But you didn't answer my question. Would Germany give its consent to build the Nord Stream today, Merkel or no Merkel? What do you personally think?

The answer would be NO. They will not grant permission to build the Nord Stream today, given the political situation prevailing in Europe. Also, you should remember that Germany is not allowing Russia to use the Nord Stream to the full capacity. Russia is allowed to use  only around 50% of the total capacity.

[V for Varoufakis]

It is not necessary for Greeks to pay the EU taxpayers and IMF in euros. They can pay them in drachmas.

[deisik]

But you didn't answer my question. Would Germany give its consent to build the Nord Stream today, Merkel or no Merkel? What do you personally think?

The answer would be NO. They will not grant permission to build the Nord Stream today, given the political situation prevailing in Europe. Also, you should remember that Germany is not allowing Russia to use the Nord Stream to the full capacity. Russia is allowed to use  only around 50% of the total capacity.

Just a few facts. The Nord Stream pipeline was built in 2010-2011 whereas Angela Merkel has been the chancellor of Germany since 2005. Actually, it was not Schröder (which had been long out of power by then), but Merkel herself who in January 2009 asked the European Union and its member states for full support for the Nord Stream. But just a year later after the pipeline exploitation of the pipeline had started (that is in 2012), the same frau Merkel snubbed talks concerning Nord Stream’s third line saying that Germany would not need third, fourth and fifth lines of the Nord Stream. Mind this had been two years before the Ukrainian events started to unfold and the EU tensions with Russia to run up...

How come?

[bryant.coleman]

Just a few facts. The Nord Stream pipeline was built in 2010-2011 whereas Angela Merkel has been the chancellor of Germany since 2005. Actually, it was not Schröder (which had been long out of power by then), but Merkel herself who in January 2009 asked the European Union and its member states for full support for the Nord Stream. But just a year later after the pipeline exploitation of the pipeline had started (that is in 2012), the same frau Merkel snubbed talks concerning Nord Stream’s third line saying that Germany would not need third, fourth and fifth lines of the Nord Stream. Mind this had been two years before the Ukrainian events started to unfold and the EU tensions with Russia to run up...

How come?

In that case I was wrong. I was thinking that the approval for the Nord Stream was granted when Schröder was in power. Neverthless, he was one of the most vocal supporters of the project. And he is currently the chairman of the board of Nord Stream AG. And regarding frau backstabbing Russia on Nord Stream, honestly I don't know the answer, and I don't want to speculate.

[deisik]

Just a few facts. The Nord Stream pipeline was built in 2010-2011 whereas Angela Merkel has been the chancellor of Germany since 2005. Actually, it was not Schröder (which had been long out of power by then), but Merkel herself who in January 2009 asked the European Union and its member states for full support for the Nord Stream. But just a year later after the pipeline exploitation of the pipeline had started (that is in 2012), the same frau Merkel snubbed talks concerning Nord Stream’s third line saying that Germany would not need third, fourth and fifth lines of the Nord Stream. Mind this had been two years before the Ukrainian events started to unfold and the EU tensions with Russia to run up...

How come?

In that case I was wrong. I was thinking that the approval for the Nord Stream was granted when Schröder was in power. Neverthless, he was one of the most vocal supporters of the project. And he is currently the chairman of the board of Nord Stream AG. And regarding frau backstabbing Russia on Nord Stream, honestly I don't know the answer, and I don't want to speculate.

But you did say (read speculate) the affirmative (wtf) NO that they (Germany) would not grant permission to build the Nord Stream pipeline today (given the present political disposition in Europe). I don't say they would (for the moment), but does the current turmoil in the relationship of the European Union with Russia have anything to do with that?

[bryant.coleman]

I don't say they would (for the moment), but does the current turmoil in the relationship of the European Union with Russia have anything to do with that?

Right now, the European Union (which includes Germany) has imposed financial sanctions on Russia, and Russia has also taken retaliatory measures (such as banning agricultural products) against the European Union. Therefore there is no chance of the EU granting permission to any major Russian project (including the Turkish Stream) anytime in the near future.

[deisik]

I don't say they would (for the moment), but does the current turmoil in the relationship of the European Union with Russia have anything to do with that?

Right now, the European Union (which includes Germany) has imposed financial sanctions on Russia, and Russia has also taken retaliatory measures (such as banning agricultural products) against the European Union. Therefore there is no chance of the EU granting permission to any major Russian project (including the Turkish Stream) anytime in the near future.

I wouldn't be so religious about this. But that's not the point I tried to make. If you didn't forget,

The US, on the otherhand want to prevent Russians from supplying piped natural gas to Europe. They want the Europeans to source their gas from either the American suppliers or from the Qataris.

Doesn't it appear rather strange to you that frau Merkel is at first very enthusiastic about Nord Stream insofar as to ask (in fact, demand) other members of the EU to support this project, and then, after it is complete (actually, two lines of it), she, all of a sudden, goes ballistic about expanding it?



Still gonna see the US' hand in this?