Are old altcoins like nigerian stamps or NOT?

[alt19]

The idea is that first altcoins with bright names can be seen as collectables is indisputable.

But nigerian stamps are also collectables and rare but not very valuable. How about altcoins?
Let's compare the features.

Nigerian stamps:
1. don't have name (theme only)
2. not liquid
3. only for stamp lovers
4. boring to discuss with non collectors
5. if you are a large holder of nigerian stamps you feel you are oddball in eyes of other people
6. country-linked
7. you can not buy anything for nigerian stamps
8. not instant delivery
9. not hi-tech
10. can not be mined
11. other limitations due to physical nature
12. not universal gift
13. very specific and exotic thing to trade
14. cannot be developed later
15. no movement, no drive, no idea.

Altcoins:
1. have name ('brand recognition')
2. liquid (to some degree though)
3. money assosiation and people love money (can attract attention of many)
4. can be discussed with friends
5. if you a large holder of crypto you feel like a whale (oligarch), vanity fair
6. global
7. you can buy goods and services with altcoins (to some degree though)
8. instant delivery
9. high-tech (crypto technology is innovative, be it Bitcoin or Bitcoin Version Number 1000).
10. can be mined
11. advantages of virtual nature but can be converted to physical paper wallets at the same time
12. universal gift
13. traded on the same exchanges with liquid and high estimated assets
14. can be developed later
15. movement, drive, decentralized economy idea.

Other features that differ?

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[HCLivess]

Why would you compare these in the first place?

[X68N]

Is this mentioned to bash altcoins or do you want a serious advice?

greetings

[MisO69]

I wouldn't be surprised if collectors are already collecting alt-coins. Some old comic books and trading cards have insane value now. I wonder how alt-coins will fair 10 or 20 years from now. You never know, that stash of 1000 WDC could be worth 100K USD in 20 years.

[alt19]

Is this mentioned to bash altcoins or do you want a serious advice?

greetings

Better arguments than an advice...

You are here since 2011 so you are probably a crypto millionaire.

Your opinion is really valuable.
Please post your 15 reasons why you never will buy altcoins.

Maybe there will be something new to 'altcoin bagholders'.

[X68N]

Is this mentioned to bash altcoins or do you want a serious advice?

greetings

Better arguments than an advice...

You are here since 2011 so you are probably a crypto millionaire.

Your opinion is really valuable.
Please post your 15 reasons why you never will buy altcoins.

Maybe there will be something new to 'altcoin bagholders'

i seems you want to hear only one answer, that altcoin investing is bad.

So i will try to bend my answer to fit your needs ;-)

First i am not a millionaire, but i made a great profit.
But that was not just luck like many people would like to hear.
When i started in July 2013 people are bitching about early adopters and so on. People dont change ;-) .
In fact i made overall a return of 2900% (from 1k to 29k). Would had invested in Bitcoin alone i would had only ~800-900%
The Altcoins boosted my investments like a multiplier. Some of my coins went up to 72000%.
I used that money i earned to educate my self investing.
I dont spend it useless on hookers and drugs ;-).

On the otherhand I know a dude who made it from 6k to 200k and lost all because he did not want to hear my 2 warnings about mt gox.
The reason lies deeply in psychology of humans. He has studied. These people tend statistically more to never question authorities.

What i learned is, investing is a skill which must be learned in theory and practice.
It is mostly contrary to human natural behavior.
There are multiple points you can fail at investing.
When you don't do it with asystem you will never find out.

That is why most people fail at this task. No System & not aware of mental stress.

My advice is stop blindfold yourself to altcoins, they cant greatly boost your earnings.
But dont invest in general if you didn't do your homework.
Buy and hold is not a strategy. Why? because the exit (Takeprofit) is missing.
Without take profit you can estimate your Return.

I have written a post you maybe find useful.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1089353.msg11714544#msg11714544

greetings

[cryptohunter]

I think the old "famous" alts will become collectors items in the future. Even if one crypto makes it to being huge. The original 50- 100 coins will become collectors items.

[alt19]

I agree that people don't change.

Maybe you remember these words of J.L.:

'What has happened in the past will happen again, and again, and again. This is because human nature does not change, and it is human emotion, solidly build into human nature, that always gets in the way of human intelligence. Of this I am sure'.

The most important thing from several hundred of books on trading and investing I've ever read.

But I don't see any reason not to respect people because of that. My own vision that alt-coins communities usually are more friendly, than BTC's one. Less cynicism, more mutual respect and support, less irony.

Like one man said it's very easy to be cynical, but successful investing or trading is not easy.  

When I'm using words "BTC supremacist" I mean not a BTC fan, nor BTC millionaire, nor early adopter, but a person who hates altcoins and imposes his opinion actively, for whom any altcoin means scam, for whom anybody who writes about altcoins here is a scammer and just wants to promote his coin.

One, who is researhing alt-coin market, has an advantage.
Who owns BTC only, this person is blind about many other things. I'd say that knowing alt-coin market helps successful trading BTC and LTC also.

Unfortunately the most of this forum's users have no idea about economics and investing (you write that you've invested money in your education but not all people do that).

So people here mostly buy when price rises only that's why P&D scammers easily take their money with 'new and cool' launches.
I'll tell you another thing: sometimes P&D scammers can even draw a technical price pattern specially for people who trust technical analysis but know only several simple patterns of it and can see nothing else.

You're right, people must do their own research, but what is even more important, they must THINK and not be fooled by 'evident' ideas.
If you mean that, I agree.

[Spoetnik]

I started trying to collect all of them like stamps way back when there was around 50 coins made.
It soon become pointless to try and keep up when mass coin cloning took hold.

Some of them I collected I had only a few coins worth nothing.
And if you ask me why I don't know why I did it LOL
I use to collect comics as a kid and started a sports card trading business as a teenager.
So I think it's the collector in me that wanted to get them all.

Are old altcoins like nigerian stamps or NOT?

hmm ?
just the old ones ?
naw.. I'd say all of them, old or not 

it's not a bad comparison too !

[alt19]

Buy and hold is not a strategy. Why? because the exit (Takeprofit) is missing.

I prefer 'following a trend' strategy to 'buy and hold'. To join a trend at the beginning is not easy, of course, it takes a lot of 'contrary thinking', to find takeprofit point is even harder. In my opinion, up trend in altcoins has started in Jan 2015. 2014 was bearish. There will be waves certainly. When to exit?
Double top in BTC or LTC will matter or if some important and rare events happen like cryptocurrency ban or big exchanges bankruptcy, maybe technology issues (less probable in my opinion than other global risks).
I have been also researching Google queries several weeks ago and that looks like currently people know only about Bitcoin (Doge and Litecoin a little). So we are really just at the beginning over long term. There are some risks but in my opinion there may be one of the greatest black swans in the whole history of investments since the ancient world.

hmm ?
just the old ones ?
naw.. I'd say all of them, old or not  

it's not a bad comparison too !

By 'old' I've meant launched before Altcoin Big Bang of 2014, before all these ninja and huge POS launches, before people were tired of alt-coins and have started to avoid them. Not merely old but with bright names and history, coins, that a lot of people remember.

So I think it's the collector in me that wanted to get them all.

maybe we all are hidden collectors here, even BTC fans who prefer to collect BTC only, as they believe that is the only one worthy item to collect.
Serious investors are trading SP contracts, brent/crude and run hedge funds. But finally they alll are collectors, too, they love and collect money .

 

[X68N]

Hello alt19,

I agree that people don't change.

Maybe you remember these words of J.L.:

'What has happened in the past will happen again, and again, and again. This is because human nature does not change, and it is human emotion, solidly build into human nature, that always gets in the way of human intelligence. Of this I am sure'.

The most important thing from several hundred of books on trading and investing I've ever read.

But I don't see any reason not to respect people because of that. My own vision that alt-coins communities usually are more friendly, than BTC's one. Less cynicism, more mutual respect and support, less irony.

Like one man said it's very easy to be cynical, but successful investing or trading is not easy.  

When I'm using words "BTC supremacist" I mean not a BTC fan, nor BTC millionaire, nor early adopter, but a person who hates altcoins and imposes his opinion actively, for whom any altcoin means scam, for whom anybody who writes about altcoins here is a scammer and just wants to promote his coin.

i cant believed my eyes :-) , didnt expect to read that.
So what was the initial intention to imitate the altcoin hater at first place?

One, who is researhing alt-coin market, has an advantage.
Who owns BTC only, this person is blind about many other things. I'd say that knowing alt-coin market helps successful trading BTC and LTC also.

Unfortunately the most of this forum's users have no idea about economics and investing (you write that you've invested money in your education but not all people do that).

I used that money to stay at home learning 8-10h a day about Trading (mostly Forex) for 1,5 Years!
So the most money went to living expenses to be able to learn as a full time.
Most traders say it takes years (2-15) to become profitable at trading. I am not fully finished yet but i am on the way. I stopped loosing and learned the essence how to be overall profitable at Forex. So the next Months are some sort of graduation exam  .

So people here mostly buy when price rises only that's why P&D scammers easily take their money with 'new and cool' launches.
I'll tell you another thing: sometimes P&D scammers can even draw a technical price pattern specially for people who trust technical analysis but know only several simple patterns of it and can see nothing else.

You're right, people must do their own research, but what is even more important, they must THINK and not be fooled by 'evident' ideas.
If you mean that, I agree.

To day i started to update my fundamental analysys excel sheet i made in 2013.
From 55 Coins in late 2013 only ~27 are still somehow interesting and i call only 10 of them really interesting (for investing).
So nearly 80% failed (90-99% lost value) or died finally (100% loss).
Some extremes are for example Mastercoin which fall from the Top 10 with 100mio Marketcap to under 1mio.
But the saga continiues and today we have a Top100 to choose from.
So more work to filter, but also more opportunities to bet only on the most promising horses .
I started trading again because i think its time for Bitcoin to rally in the next 5-9 Months.
Alsp its 2 years ago when i first started with trading in July 2013 , ;-) a good reason to proove my self i can win again)


Something i forgot in the post before,
when i statet first in 2011 with mining, then gave it up because of to much power cost.
I sold that 5,5 Bitcoins later with a nice profit of 480€, later in mid 2013 in came to the conclusion that buying was
faster to get serious amounts.

Buy and hold is not a strategy. Why? because the exit (Takeprofit) is missing.

I prefer 'following a trend' strategy to 'buy and hold'. To join a trend at the beginning is not easy, of course, it takes a lot of 'contrary thinking', to find takeprofit point is even harder. In my opinion, up trend in altcoins has started in Jan 2015. 2014 was bearish. There will be waves certainly. When to exit?
Double top in BTC or LTC will matter or if some important and rare events happen like cryptocurrency ban or big exchanges bankruptcy, maybe technology issues (less probable in my opinion than other global risks).
I have been also researching Google queries several weeks ago and that looks like currently people know only about Bitcoin (Doge and Litecoin a little). So we are really just at the beginning over long term. There are some risks but in my opinion there may be one of the greatest black swans in the whole history of investments since the ancient world.

In Bitcoin & Altcoin trading i personally dont look for patterns, i use mostly Relations in percentages.
I aim for a minimal 10x value gain because i my trade take more than 1-5 months.(my longest trade took 19 months!)
~10x seems be be a good factor which worked multiple times for me. (Example Bitcoin 100 to 1000usd)
I timed my exist in sync with the Bitcoin peak.
Another idea is to use trailing stops (Crypsy Trigger, updated manually)
Also possible is to take partial profits in different portions for the Takeprofit.

I think there are different types and shapes of electronic money, they cant fail all together is my opinion.
We already have digital fiat money which can fail also and maybe is in the short future (Eur and Usd are aiming for parity it seems).
Blackswan events aren't really rare these times  they come in faster intervalls.
People should learn to mistrust authorities like Banks and Goverments.
I am not against these institutions, i just think they need some sort of control which avoids them to waste peoples Money and Lifetime.

So I think it's the collector in me that wanted to get them all.

maybe we all are hidden collectors here, even BTC fans who prefer to collect BTC only, as they believe that is the only one worthy item to collect.
Serious investors are trading SP contracts, brent/crude and run hedge funds. But finally they alll are collectors, too, they love and collect money

to answer the question if cryptocoins find collectors, i doubt it because they are to abstract.
Just a hash key.
Most users here invest and trade i guess.

[tokeweed]

The idea is that first altcoins with bright names can be seen as collectables is indisputable.

But nigerian stamps are also collectables and rare but not very valuable. How about altcoins?
Let's compare the features.

Nigerian stamps:
1. don't have name (theme only)
2. not liquid
3. only for stamp lovers
4. boring to discuss with non collectors
5. if you are a large holder of nigerian stamps you feel you are oddball in eyes of other people
6. country-linked
7. you can not buy anything for nigerian stamps
8. not instant delivery
9. not hi-tech
10. can not be mined
11. other limitations due to physical nature
12. not universal gift
13. very specific and exotic thing to trade
14. cannot be developed later
15. no movement, no drive, no idea.

Altcoins:
1. have name ('brand recognition')
2. liquid (to some degree though)
3. money assosiation and people love money (can attract attention of many)
4. can be discussed with friends
5. if you a large holder of crypto you feel like a whale (oligarch), vanity fair
6. global
7. you can buy goods and services with altcoins (to some degree though)
8. instant delivery
9. high-tech (crypto technology is innovative, be it Bitcoin or Bitcoin Version Number 1000).
10. can be mined
11. advantages of virtual nature but can be converted to physical paper wallets at the same time
12. universal gift
13. traded on the same exchanges with liquid and high estimated assets
14. can be developed later
15. movement, drive, decentralized economy idea.

Other features that differ?

No value.  No potential. 

[X68N]

No value.  No potential. 

This statement is a classic, that was said about bitcoin when the price was at 10usd.
It was repeated when the BTC first peaked at ~30usd and came back to 10usd.
Most people saw it as "proove" for their statement, that Bitcoin has no value and no potential 

Applied to  Altcoins this statement has been prooven wrong many times when applied as  Altcoins in general.
When you make a more precise statement like for example 80% have no value and no potential (measured over 1 years),
i can agree partially with my experience of some years in the cryptomarket.

The problem with the second part "no potential" is that it depends on the historical price action of a cryptocurrency.
It can't be generalised and must be explored form case to case, since the variety of charts pictures.
When you look closely you can see that al ot of coins have a different degree of correlation to Bitcoin. (ranges from +100  0 -100)

greetings

[tokeweed]

No value.  No potential. 

This statement is a classic, that was said about bitcoin when the price was at 10usd.
It was repeated when the BTC first peaked at ~30usd and came back to 10usd.
Most people saw it as "proove" for their statement, that Bitcoin has no value and no potential 

Applied to  Altcoins this statement has been prooven wrong many times when applied as  Altcoins in general.
When you make a more precise statement like for example 80% have no value and no potential (measured over 1 years),
i can agree partially with my experience of some years in the cryptomarket.

The problem with the second part "no potential" is that it depends on the historical price action of a cryptocurrency.
It can't be generalised and must be explored form case to case, since the variety of charts pictures.
When you look closely you can see that al ot of coins have a different degree of correlation to Bitcoin. (ranges from +100  0 -100)

greetings

Yup, you're right.

[muddafudda]

Nigerian stamps are better than this sub forum.

[Mountain Jew]

Nigerian stamps? Are you sure you're not getting them mixed up with the now worthless zimbabwean dollars? Never heard of Nigerian stamps before.

[chopper873]

Nigerian stamps? Are you sure you're not getting them mixed up with the now worthless zimbabwean dollars? Never heard of Nigerian stamps before.

This website sells them, and it's one of the largest stamp companies in the world.

http://www.sandafayre.com/countries/nigerianstamps.html

The Nigerian stamps on the first page cost between £50 and £800. Zimbabwean dollars are now worthless, but  Nigerian stamps are a good investment from the looks of those prices.

[X68N]

The problem with stamps (and non gold/silver coins) is , that you must find someone who pays that price.
So speaking in market terms, the volume and liquidity is extreme low

[alt19]

So what was the initial intention to imitate the altcoin hater at first place?

I'm not an altcoin hater. Have a look at my site http://alt19.com
I was probably the first who has started calculating Altcoin Indices in 2013.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1089664 here is an example how knowing altcoin market trend can help trading LTC.
But sometimes I really need thinking like altcoin haters to understand them and to investigate if they're right or not, or if they are right to degree.

From 55 Coins in late 2013 only ~27 are still somehow interesting and i call only 10 of them really interesting (for investing).

Would be really interesting to hear which coins from 27 you find valuable.
I see that Doge has a good potential, but it has one big disadvantage: it's fun so not completely good for wide adoption.
People see money as a serious thing usually. So just imagine that somebody says to his friends or business partners 'I've invested my money in Dogecoin', sounds as a joke to people who haven't heard of it before. But Doge is even more popular now than Lite.

to answer the question if cryptocoins find collectors, i doubt it because they are to abstract.
Just a hash key.
Most users here invest and trade i guess.

They will find their collectors but not right now and not here.
There may be a cool new trend in collecting. Hash keys, why not?
The stranger it looks, the better for snobs (millionaires). I think 1-2 year there will be accumulation, then there will appear some articles in Wall Street Journal about them. It is quite simple to organize it and profit can be 10,000% or more. So do you really think that collectors' suppliers and opinion makers will lose this chance?

[X68N]

So what was the initial intention to imitate the altcoin hater at first place?

I'm not an altcoin hater. Have a look at my site http://alt19.com
I was probably the first who has started calculating Altcoin Indices in 2013.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1089664 here is an example how knowing altcoin market trend can help trading LTC.
But sometimes I really need thinking like altcoin haters to understand them and to investigate if they're right or not, or if they are right to degree.

That site looks interesting. But i think graphics represent the value over time in a better way (Higher data desity=more resoloution).
What i realy miss you could do is, make correlation graphics.
To this date nobody did make it. But correlation between coins exist, and the graphical exploration could be valuable.
You already used it some sort with your Altcoin idex VS Lite coin. But interesting would be all coins VS Bitcoin.
I recognised for example MEC and WDC have a relative high correlation with BTC.

From 55 Coins in late 2013 only ~27 are still somehow interesting and i call only 10 of them really interesting (for investing).

Would be really interesting to hear which coins from 27 you find valuable.
I see that Doge has a good potential, but it has one big disadvantage: it's fun so not completely good for wide adoption.
People see money as a serious thing usually. So just imagine that somebody says to his friends or business partners 'I've invested my money in Dogecoin', sounds as a joke to people who haven't heard of it before. But Doge is even more popular now than Lite.

At the moment i am not done with my research because i have to dedicate  alot of time to forex atm.
So i cant name you a full list, only some i am sure.
Keep in mind, that i name coins in terms of potential for trading.
Also you need to consider to  get a good entry price.
Also think of scaling in and splitting your capital to several coins (not too much)


1.One of the most interesting is IFC(Infinitecoins) because it showed and still does, no correlation to BTC.(exept 2013 peak)
This is very good because, a low correlation is needed to spread the risk.
It makes no sense to invest in 5-10 coins with all go 85-95% in harmony with BTC.
Since it has rise in the past 10x, and fallen now, a good entry is around 0,00000350
Lowest significant low is about 0,00000170 - 0,00000200
Target around last high 0,000029500 (800-1000%)

2.ZET (Zetacoins)
These have shown multiple times to be able to produce peaks. This is a good sign of interest of traders.
Also the entry seems to have a low risk.
It seem that the reasonable low is 0,00001000 - 00001500
Lowest significant low is about 0,00000500
Target around 0,00025500 (2000-2200%)

3.VTC Vertcoins
Spiked recently to 0.0024900 and fall back again to 0.00036000
I entered at        0.00036500
It seem that the low is ~0,00003000
So keep in mind is possible to that low again, i would suggest to buy only 1/3 at 0,00036000
if it drops further split your orders form 0,00036000 - 0,00003000
Overall this trade has a good potential to gain 680%

4.Anoncoin
This is still a good bet 
entry between 0.00075000  - 0.00051000
Lowest significant low is        0,00026000
Target is 0,09950000(1300-2000%)

5.Litecoin offcourse,
I got that 0.0061000 entry 
Scaling in was/is possible at 0,0121000 and 0,0151000  (1/3 - 1/4)
Targets are 0,0499000 + 0,0598000 + 0,0689000 (at least 800%)

Also keep in mind when Bitcoin goes to 1000usd again and it will sooner or later,
you can mulptiply the % i had written x4.


Dogecoin? dont underestimate the Socialmedia masses, they can be a factor.
Back in 1619 in Europe there the masses traded tulips ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
For dogecoin i must say in fundamental its good, but i dont by it.
The reason is i only by when i get a good entry price and the coin shows potential to gain more than my risk is as a compensation,
because the goal is to make profit.
If they keep on developing and affiliate Dogcoin with a bob team and stockcarracers,
it has some sort of good PR.
The majority of people don't invest, they consume.
So Doge can be succsessfull if the masses buy instead of investors.
Same is with NXT. There are a lot of coins i think have good ideas. But everyone should decide for himself.

----

Please Look to the Charts for yourself to check if you can agree.
One important thing is, if Bitcoin peaks again (1000-1600 or more), and the Target dont get hit on the second day i would suggest,
to take partial profits and set sell trigers in the case bitcoin drops a gain.

greetings