Nefario GLBSE

[pyrkne]

They used to have a forum. It's been gone since around the time GLBSE 2.0 launched, and GLBSE launched a support account here because the other forum was poorly supported and resulted in information spread out in two different places.

I see, that is similar to what's been said before. Interesting to know.

[The00Dustin]

They have already ignored me long enough for me to get the hint. To my knowledge ( but I didnt look too hard ) the scam section only has this thread relating to nefario scamming. So I put my complaints where they belong, I don't care if I shot myself in the foot since I know my bitcoins are already stolen.

I'm not sure on the policy here, but if you believe you have a case for a scammer tag against Nefario, it might be best to post your accusation in a new thread.  Presumably you will get the opportunity to work with BadBear and Maged the same way Goat did, and presumably your interactions will be different, if only more private.  I can see the point in posting here since you are in a way "a victim of the same scam" but I think you are more "a victim of a different scam" or "a victim of piss-poor customer service" and I don't know what anyone else would think, but a separate thread will at least get your complaint seem by more eyes than page 17 of this one.

[JoelKatz]

Best I can tell from his (jasinlee's) comments he has shot himself in the metaphorical foot with GLBSE. My guess, and this is only a guess, is that Nefario and the rest of Team GLSBE is done with listening to insults from minor league biznessmen who believe telling somebody to go fuck themselves is a good opening gambit in negotiation. It has been pretty clear for a while now that GLBSE can and will change the rules, and will react to anti-social comments spread around. Who seriously thinks that having Goat's public immolation is the way to get your way when requesting anything from anybody. Shoot yourself in the head first, then insult the other guy and only then ask questions? Really? Jasinlee might have a chance, with some mea culpas and a little politeness, while I suspect that Goat's hooves will freeze to the rice paddies on account of Hell freezing over before he sees a dime.

The problem is that even if you accept this reasoning, you still have Nefario screwing over all those who hold Goat's assets. In fact, there's no evidence Nefario considered any of the obvious harm the sudden delisting would do to GLBSE's customers. And as of yet, we have no explanation for why such a drastic action was even advisable, much less necessary.

Even with the best of imaginable outcomes, you'd have to expect the assets to lose a significant fraction of their value and every asset holder to be inconvenienced by having to track the asset in some system other than the one they were already using. And frankly, it looks like Nefario either didn't think about it or just didn't care. He just wanted to get Goat.

Yes, other people did some things they possibly shouldn't have done. But nothing I can see compares to GLBSE's wholesale abandonment of their customers without explanation.

[MPOE-PR]

What I can tell you is that you are spending your efforts in the wrong place if you want to debate GLBSE policy on this forum.

I see usagi-thought is making inroads. Loup, why not just make some local forum rules?

Not true. GLBSE/Nefario actually opened the thread about delisting Goat himself.

They only decided to ignore the forum after the SHTF

This is indeed true. Nefario gets brave in front of the mirror, softens up in public.

They used to have a forum. It's been gone since around the time GLBSE 2.0 launched, and GLBSE launched a support account here because the other forum was poorly supported and resulted in information spread out in two different places.

Lol maybe Loup is trying to revive it?

They have already ignored me long enough for me to get the hint. To my knowledge ( but I didnt look too hard ) the scam section only has this thread relating to nefario scamming. So I put my complaints where they belong, I don't care if I shot myself in the foot since I know my bitcoins are already stolen.

I'm not sure on the policy here, but if you believe you have a case for a scammer tag against Nefario, it might be best to post your accusation in a new thread.  Presumably you will get the opportunity to work with BadBear and Maged the same way Goat did, and presumably your interactions will be different, if only more private.  I can see the point in posting here since you are in a way "a victim of the same scam" but I think you are more "a victim of a different scam" or "a victim of piss-poor customer service" and I don't know what anyone else would think, but a separate thread will at least get your complaint seem by more eyes than page 17 of this one.

Twas tried. Very well presented if I may say so myself, didn't go anywhere because c0x.

[LoupGaroux]

What I can tell you is that you are spending your efforts in the wrong place if you want to debate GLBSE policy on this forum.

I see usagi-thought is making inroads. Loup, why not just make some local forum rules?

Not true. GLBSE/Nefario actually opened the thread about delisting Goat himself.

They only decided to ignore the forum after the SHTF

This is indeed true. Nefario gets brave in front of the mirror, softens up in public.

They used to have a forum. It's been gone since around the time GLBSE 2.0 launched, and GLBSE launched a support account here because the other forum was poorly supported and resulted in information spread out in two different places.

Lol maybe Loup is trying to revive it?

They have already ignored me long enough for me to get the hint. To my knowledge ( but I didnt look too hard ) the scam section only has this thread relating to nefario scamming. So I put my complaints where they belong, I don't care if I shot myself in the foot since I know my bitcoins are already stolen.

I'm not sure on the policy here, but if you believe you have a case for a scammer tag against Nefario, it might be best to post your accusation in a new thread.  Presumably you will get the opportunity to work with BadBear and Maged the same way Goat did, and presumably your interactions will be different, if only more private.  I can see the point in posting here since you are in a way "a victim of the same scam" but I think you are more "a victim of a different scam" or "a victim of piss-poor customer service" and I don't know what anyone else would think, but a separate thread will at least get your complaint seem by more eyes than page 17 of this one.

Twas tried. Very well presented if I may say so myself, didn't go anywhere because c0x.

Ouch. While I certainly have no issue with a good barroom brawl now and again, painting my comments with the usagi-thought brush is just plain mean. My point is simply this- the extremely poorly communicating and somewhat more than occasionally erratic management of GLBSE has made their rules (currently) that you can only communicate with them through their support (yeah right, support, my ass!!) tickets and through their (non-existent) forum. Revive it? Hell, I'm trying actively to dump every shit investment I have in GLBSE before it completely tanks in the next few weeks (just like version 1.0 did) and we all get stuck holding nothing but air, and still enjoying their piss-poor communications.

Far from being an apologist for GLBSE (I'm not, I think their customer service is second only to pirate and possibly bitcoinica for openness and accessibility) I am just trying to make a point that jasinlee might have more success in dealing with them on their terms, rather than taking the Full Goat approach. Full Goat gets your shit delisted, your assets frozen, and your panties in a twist. Just like bitcoinica needed "fucking respect" I find one can do much better treating the delusional demi-gods of investment genius by playing to their vanity, and was trying to offer that advice to jasinlee.

Or stick to the Full Goat Method, it matters not a whit. Chances are you will end up just as royally screwed as pretty much every other venture around here.

[jasinlee]

There is a new thread on here apparently in the last few weeks this has become the norm.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115393.0

And then I just found this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115430.0;topicseen

Guess I am not alone.

[coinft]

Best I can tell from his (jasinlee's) comments he has shot himself in the metaphorical foot with GLBSE. My guess, and this is only a guess, is that Nefario and the rest of Team GLSBE is done with listening to insults from minor league biznessmen who believe telling somebody to go fuck themselves is a good opening gambit in negotiation. It has been pretty clear for a while now that GLBSE can and will change the rules, and will react to anti-social comments spread around. Who seriously thinks that having Goat's public immolation is the way to get your way when requesting anything from anybody. Shoot yourself in the head first, then insult the other guy and only then ask questions? Really? Jasinlee might have a chance, with some mea culpas and a little politeness, while I suspect that Goat's hooves will freeze to the rice paddies on account of Hell freezing over before he sees a dime.

The problem is that even if you accept this reasoning, you still have Nefario screwing over all those who hold Goat's assets. In fact, there's no evidence Nefario considered any of the obvious harm the sudden delisting would do to GLBSE's customers. And as of yet, we have no explanation for why such a drastic action was even advisable, much less necessary.

Even with the best of imaginable outcomes, you'd have to expect the assets to lose a significant fraction of their value and every asset holder to be inconvenienced by having to track the asset in some system other than the one they were already using. And frankly, it looks like Nefario either didn't think about it or just didn't care. He just wanted to get Goat.

Yes, other people did some things they possibly shouldn't have done. But nothing I can see compares to GLBSE's wholesale abandonment of their customers without explanation.

Indeed. My guess is he went into silent mode after he realized he single handedly destroyed value of innocent customers fighting Goat with the biggest guns available, instead of the smallest, and he's pondering his liability now.

It's not too late to backtrack and relist the assets for damage mitigation, even if some harm will remain. Another option is to let GLBSE die with as little fuss as possible and run with minor deposits whose owners won't go to court over.

[MPOE-PR]

I predict after friday things are gonna change and more level heads will prevail.

This prediction seems to have been spot on, GLBSE being closed.

Ouch. While I certainly have no issue with a good barroom brawl now and again, painting my comments with the usagi-thought brush is just plain mean.

Perhaps it was a little rough.

It's not too late to backtrack and relist the assets for damage mitigation, even if some harm will remain. Another option is to let GLBSE die with as little fuss as possible and run with minor deposits whose owners won't go to court over.

You mean sorta like bitcoinica 2.0? Interesting.

Oct 04 18:57:06 *   genjix (~genjix@188.165.73.224) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Oct 04 18:57:19 <Doffx>   Time to open free accounts for Mpex
Oct 04 18:57:40 <mircea_popescu>   not happening.
Oct 04 18:57:42 <mircea_popescu>   actually
Oct 04 18:57:43 <smickles>   Doffx: no, time for jurov|away's brokerage site to open up public
Oct 04 18:57:47 <mircea_popescu>   effective immediately, the fee is 30 btc.
Oct 04 18:57:50 <mircea_popescu>   enjoy.
Oct 04 18:58:04 <Doffx>   Lol.
Oct 04 18:58:19 <smickles>   coinbr.com, iirc
Oct 04 18:58:21 <ErebusBat>   AND your eyes can bleed while you use it
Oct 04 18:58:26 <ErebusBat>   it is a two-fer
Oct 04 18:58:37 <Doffx>   Either way I will no longer participate in any exchange.
Oct 04 18:59:09 <Doffx>   I'm glad I removed all my BTC from Glbse
Oct 04 18:59:16 <defactomacro>   what is left to participate in?
Oct 04 18:59:19 <Doffx>   Just wish I had time to dump all my shares
Oct 04 19:00:10 <genjix>   nefario is legit. for sure there is a reasonable explanation and everyone will get their bitcoins back. i trust the guy.
Oct 04 19:00:44 <smickles>   defactomacro: any other bitcoin related securites exchange?
Oct 04 19:00:59 <smickles>   there's a whole list in /topic
Oct 04 19:01:02 <Doffx>   The btc is only one part of the problem, the bigger problem is everyone is going to want out.
Oct 04 19:01:02 <mircea_popescu>   ;;ident genjix
Oct 04 19:01:03 <gribble>   Nick 'genjix', with hostmask 'genjix!~genjix@188.165.73.224', is not identified.
Oct 04 19:01:09 <mircea_popescu>   you have got to be kidding.
Oct 04 19:01:12 <Doffx>   So if you own shares what happens.
Oct 04 19:01:21 <ErebusBat>   genjix: If ther eis govt intervention it doesn't matter one lick if nefario was legit or not
Oct 04 19:01:40 <mircea_popescu>   genjix aren't there some coins you folks stole with bitcoinica taht need to be dispensed ?

[BadBear]

     I will not be mediating the situation between Goat and Nefario. There are better places to do that, with people who know their local laws better than I do. Goat is already taking advice from his lawyer, he should consult him on how best to deal with this situation, he'd probably know better than most people on an internet forum. Unlike both Nefario and Goat, I don't have legal counsel so I'd rather stay out of it. There are just too many uncertainties. 

     My role here is to decide based on the evidence if Nefario deserves a scammer tag based on his actions. Mostly because of the concerns I wrote about above, I'm undecided on this, which likely means no. I need to be certain of guilt to stake someone else's name and reputation on me being right, and undecided is a long way from certain. I'd also rather wait and see what's going on with GLBSE since it's only a couple more days, maybe that will clear things up a bit as to what's going on. I'd also like to see the results of whatever route Goat decides to pursue, hopefully he'll keep us updated on that. If he can get an official ruling on the legalities surrounding the situation then it's likely I'd go along with that.

[LoupGaroux]

Great... genjix is endorsing Nefario. That pretty well screws the pooch. GLBSE is a scam.

[Severian]

GLBSE is a scam.

Indeed. I'm not surprised.

I also see them as yet another stepping stone for the education of the Bitcoin community. As much as I love the idea of Bitcoin (so much so that I'm heavily vested in it) and the drive of the community, I have to remember that the young, inexperienced community is Bitcoin's biggest liability.

[repentance]

GLBSE is a scam.

Indeed. I'm not surprised.

I also see them as yet another stepping stone for the education of the Bitcoin community. As much as I love the idea of Bitcoin (so much so that I'm heavily vested in it) and the drive of the community, I have to remember that the young, inexperienced community is Bitcoin's biggest liability.

Honestly, it's about time that wannabe entrepreneurs started to realise that you can't just do whatever you want within the business environment and claim some kind of magical immunity because...Bitcoins.  I hope the events of the last couple of months do have some kind of chilling effect on start-ups so that we see a much more professional approach to the launching of Bitcoin services in the future. 

Very, very few existing Bitcoin services have the kind of financial reserves necessary to weather regulatory or other legal challenges and that needs to change.  One of the first questions we should be asking those launching services in the future is what their contingency plans are for predictable challenges such as bank accounts being frozen, their service being hacked, regulatory requirements being imposed, etc.

PayPal spent years trying to avoid being regulated and it ended up losing the fight despite having the enormous financial reserves of e-Bay at its disposal.  Facebook abandoned FB credits - which were projected to be a huge source of revenue - in order to avoid potentially expensive legal complications.  I doubt that even the most successful Bitcoin services can afford protracted legal challenges lasting years and costing hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Services need to be far more upfront about what their plans are for dealing with legal and regulatory issues which will almost certainly arise more often as time goes on.  For many services, the honest answer is that they will simply have to close if they come under regulatory or other legal scrutiny - it's about time users were explicitly made aware of that likelihood.

[Severian]

For many services, the honest answer is that they will simply have to close if they come under regulatory or other legal scrutiny - it's about time users were explicitly made aware of that likelihood.

I look forward to the day that every Bitcoin user assumes the existence of counterparty risk when putting their coins to anything rather than assume that they can "trust" someone because they see their friends doing it too.

[Raoul Duke]

Goat,  if Nefario ever relists your assets you should make sure never to connect to GLBSE without chaining 15 proxies while using a Linux live CD(at least)

[pyrkne]

Goat,  if Nefario ever relists your assets you should make sure never to connect to GLBSE without chaining 15 proxies while using a Linux live CD(at least)

You gotta get with the times man! Linux live thumbdrive!

[greyhawk]

Goat,  if Nefario ever relists your assets you should make sure never to connect to GLBSE without chaining 15 proxies while using a Linux live CD(at least)

You gotta get with the times man! Linux live thumbdrive!

You gotta get with the times man! Android PC-on-a-stick!

[Raoul Duke]

Goat,  if Nefario ever relists your assets you should make sure never to connect to GLBSE without chaining 15 proxies while using a Linux live CD(at least)

You gotta get with the times man! Linux live thumbdrive!

Nope... A thumbdrive can have a persistent filesystem. Better not take any chances

[repentance]

For many services, the honest answer is that they will simply have to close if they come under regulatory or other legal scrutiny - it's about time users were explicitly made aware of that likelihood.

I look forward to the day that every Bitcoin user assumes the existence of counterparty risk when putting their coins to anything rather than assume that they can "trust" someone because they see their friends doing it too.

I look forward to the day when Bitcoin users stop crying "scam" every time they lose money.  The majority of real world start-ups fail.  The majority of Bitcoin start-ups are woefully under-capitalised and have nothing resembling a viable business plan.  That does not in and of itself make them scams.  Calling every venture which fails a scam stops us from looking at the factors these failures have in common - it stops us from developing a collective wisdom which can be used to reduce the chance of future ventures failing.

[pyrkne]

For many services, the honest answer is that they will simply have to close if they come under regulatory or other legal scrutiny - it's about time users were explicitly made aware of that likelihood.

I look forward to the day that every Bitcoin user assumes the existence of counterparty risk when putting their coins to anything rather than assume that they can "trust" someone because they see their friends doing it too.

I look forward to the day when Bitcoin users stop crying "scam" every time they lose money.  The majority of real world start-ups fail.  The majority of Bitcoin start-ups are woefully under-capitalised and have nothing resembling a viable business plan.  That does not in and of itself make them scams.  Calling every venture which fails a scam stops us from looking at the factors these failures have in common - it stops us from developing a collective wisdom which can be used to reduce the chance of future ventures failing.

I agree - we investors are thinking too short term. Let's hope that the failures this year lead to less failures next year.

The exchanges have been around for what, six months?

[Severian]

I look forward to the day when Bitcoin users stop crying "scam" every time they lose money.  

Agreed. But things will stop looking like scams when an operation's principle actors are asking people to just "trust" them. Trust has been common factor behind all of these failures, which is odd since trust is the exact opposite of Bitcoin's architecture. The con in "con game" is short for confidence for a reason.