TYGRR.* assets on GLBSE delisted.

[markm]

Thaks Joel, you seem to have made good arguments there for putting each issuer on a separate server-instance, as doing so would allow simply zipping the entire server-instance and sending it to the issuer or having the issuer download it.

They could then simply give it to another hosting company to fire it back up for them so they can themselves take care of migrating its contents over to a new server-contract whose private keys will not be accessible/known to the previous hoster.

-MarkM-

[memvola]

What is your personal recommendation for people who are holding these shares?

I would recommend people who hold assets of the delisted company, contact the person who is operating the delisted company, as that person is who controls your shares.

A redeeming code I get from GLBSE does not equate a contract Goat and I have signed (digital or otherwise). Your recommendation doesn't seem to be helping with the problem.

But what about GLBSE's obligations to me? I and others will definitely lose time AND money merely because of how this decision is carried out.

What obligations to you are you talking about?

GLBSE's obligation of handling the shares I own. The claim code I got doesn't have identical qualities with the representation of shares I owned through GLBSE. Even the potential existence and nature of these codes were unknown prior to this event, probably even by GLBSE.

Never mind that I was exposed to a situation that I had no way of predicting. It is GLBSE's obligation to keep me out of needless trouble. I'm still waiting for an explanation of why these assets were de-listed without prior notice to me. You can argue that the de-listing is Goat's fault, but the fact that I'm wasting time here instead of productive work and the risk that I won't be able to redeem my shares is entirely GLBSE's doing.

[MPOE-PR]

I would recommend people who hold assets of the delisted company, contact the person who is operating the delisted company, as that person is who controls your shares.

Both parties agreed that GLBSE would control who owned the shares. GLBSE gave them to Goat. They're not bearer bonds, they're not "your shares" just because you have a claim code issued by GLBSE. GLBSE has no authority to issue its customers claim codes that Goat must redeem. Goat never agreed to effectively a bearer bond and he certainly never agreed (nor would have under any circumstances) to a scheme where GLBSE issues its customers claim codes that Goat must honor.

What obligations to you are you talking about?

I would assume GLBSE's obligation to secure its customers assets and transfer control of them only as agreed rather than giving them to the issuer without authorization from either party.

The agreement already is between the issuer and the asset holder and glbse doesnt own anything. The codes simply tell goat which amount of shares belongs to which owner and if he really wanted to he could simply setup a new account at another exchange and issue people shares as they redeem the codes.

This is nonsense for multiple reasons, among which is the simple and obvious one that you can't have contracts between unknown parties. The only valid way to treat financials in BTC is as stemming from a contract between the issuer and the exchange (which is to say, the way MPEx does it).

I would also like to know why they were delisted. There should be an official reason if not well who knows who is next. Diablo-D3's operation was unfrozen after a month. No action was taken or explanation on why it was frozen and then unfrozen.

This.

[da2ce7]

For those interested, there are now Windows Builds of Moneychanger, (a client GUI for Open Transactions)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77301.0


Also feel free to join #opentransactions on freenode.   We are more than happy to help people with any issues they may have.

[bitlane]

James McCarthy (GLBSE)

Sep 27 09:10 (HKT)

Hi XXXX,
if the issuer doesn't honor his agreement then you should press for legal action. The agreement is between the issuer and the asset holder. You may consider a group action.

The issuer has been given all the information he needs to identify asset holders and their balances.

Since the asset is no longer on GLBSE we are no longer involved.

GLBSE support.



It seems Nefario is telling people that they should call the police on me. That is a funny joke cuz only GLBSE can prove they ever had the shares.

These guys get to the police station and try to file a report. Police ask them for evidence, they say Nefario deleted it all (including the contracts) and gave them some "code" that no one accepts.

There is no way they can make a claim against me. It is really beyond the point of silliness.

Nefario must not have given the above statement, let alone this entire situation.....a single ounce of thought....LMAO

.....talk about all-time back-fires. I think it's fair to say that you are safe Goat.

[MPOE-PR]

And the wtf just keeps piling on....

[bitcoinbear]

I assume Goat should have copies of his contracts, oh wait, one of them was "Test", looks like I had that one backed up in my brain If he did things right, they should have been gpg signed, so even if he brings out the copies people can still check to see they are correct.

Now Goat, here are a few simple steps to clear up this mess completely:

1 - Give Nefario a btc address and get your customers money from him.
2 - Go to cryptostocks, open up assets corresponding to the assets you had on GLBSE.
3 - Send out communication to assetholders, put up a big notice on this forum, if you have a website then put a notice there, etc, etc.
4 - Have asset holders provide you with the claim code and a cryptostocks account, transfer them the shares.
5 - Stop whining.

[bitcoinbear]

1 - Give Nefario a btc address and get your customers money from him.
2 - Go to cryptostocks, open up assets corresponding to the assets you had on GLBSE.
3 - Send out communication to assetholders, put up a big notice on this forum, if you have a website then put a notice there, etc, etc.
4 - Have asset holders provide you with the claim code and a cryptostocks account, transfer them the shares.
5 - Stop whining.

Sure sounds reasonable let's see if we can do this...

Now what do I do if someone uses the code more than once? Since Nefario gave out the codes he will 100% back them correct?

Or what if they don't want a cryptostocks account?

Or I can't reach them?

In your comunications, explain clearly that codes will only be redemable once, to the first party that uses the code, and you are not liable if somebody lost or stole a code. Say something like "any shares not redemed in 3 months will be absorbed by the company". If they do not want a cryptostock account, I suppose they could sell the code to somebody who does.

[BadBear]

I assume Goat should have copies of his contracts, oh wait, one of them was "Test", looks like I had that one backed up in my brain If he did things right, they should have been gpg signed, so even if he brings out the copies people can still check to see they are correct.

Now Goat, here are a few simple steps to clear up this mess completely:

1 - Give Nefario a btc address and get your customers money from him.
2 - Go to cryptostocks, open up assets corresponding to the assets you had on GLBSE.
3 - Send out communication to assetholders, put up a big notice on this forum, if you have a website then put a notice there, etc, etc.
4 - Have asset holders provide you with the claim code and a cryptostocks account, transfer them the shares.
5 - Stop whining.

Sure sounds reasonable let's see if we can do this...

Now what do I do if someone uses the code more than once? Since Nefario gave out the codes he will 100% back them correct?

Or what if they don't want a cryptostocks account?

Or I can't reach them?

I can see how it's a frustrating situation, what information were you given? I thought you were given contact emails and usernames too, can these not be used to verify claim codes as well? If more than one person is using the same email address, username, and claim codes then those should be withheld until it can be cleared up, but that's no reason to hold up the rest of them.

To address another concern, if someone uses an email address, claim code, and username to verify with you, and later someone else uses the same information, then they lost control of their account somehow which makes it their problem.  

[Dalkore]

I'm sure Nefario will be reasonable and work something out once he cools down. He is just upset I would not trade him the "Fake" GLBSE assets. He is just upset and power tripping right now.

Rubbish, your a complete liability to do business with.

Can you explain how he is a liability?   It seems like each time he mentions these "fake" assets that were going to be honored and now they will not, you mention liability.   I work in sales and deal with difficult people all the time but I still deal with them.

[bitcoinbear]

You want people to sell the codes and you want me to reject some of the codes? You also want me to refuse people from using the codes after 3 months. umm... This is not going to end well...  Honestly this sound like something Nefario would suggest.

No, I don't want them to sell the codes, but that is something they could do if they do not want to do the claim process themself. I was just suggesting you put a time limit on it so you don't have a bunch of unclaimed shares sitting around, and then sometime next year somebody tries to get their shares. Stating that codes will only be redemed to the first party who presents them would emphasise the fact that they should protect the code until they redeem it.

[Dalkore]

My obligation was with GLBSE. What happens if I pay back 50% and then GLBSE relists my assets like nothing happened? Then I'm really screwed as I owe them all again...

Why would glbse relist your assets ?

Wasn't your obligation to your asset holders not GLBSE?

What about GLBSE's Nefario's obligation, theyhe acts as the middle man, an asset issuer can't even get any data about who holds the asset.  Apparently GLBSENefario gets to fuck the issuers, then fuck the shareholders all while sitting in the middle with no liability, here's your secret code list, everything is all roses now.  If GLBSENefario is going to act like this, then theyhe need to get out from the middle of the shareholder-asset issuer relationship.  The asset issuer needs to know the usernames, withdraw addresses, number of shares owned of the shareholders.  Otherwise GLBSENefario DOES HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO THE SHAREHOLDERS AND THE ISSUERS.  One that is greater then, oh well weI quit, here's your secret code list.

The real risk is created when he exercises his complete authority with the appearance of whim or perfidy.  The fact that he singles out individuals for delisting/freezing/etc. based on various "legal" reasons exposes him to liability for all the other scams traded on his exchange.  By policing a few, he must police them all.

In addition, by acting arbitrarily, he exposes himself to accusations of wrongful conduct as his actions injure various parties.

Nefario has already admitted that he has permitted illicit activity up to this point and is only remediating his profitable criminal complicity at this time in order to gain government recognition as a trading entity.  The smartest move at this point would be to close GLBSE completely, responsibly settle accounts, and then establish a new exchange with stricter controls necessary for compliance.

However, he is in a situation where he wants to eat his cake and have it as well.  This will cause difficulty.

Nefario - I would read this one a couple times.   You really can't run an exchange like your own sandbox.   You have an obligation to all parties involved regardless of what you TOS says in principle.   You are scaring customers from your exchange.  Now they are worried their asset issuers will piss you off and then BAM!, gone.

[Smoovious]

What is your personal recommendation for people who are holding these shares?

I would recommend people who hold assets of the delisted company, contact the person who is operating the delisted company, as that person is who controls your shares.

A redeeming code I get from GLBSE does not equate a contract Goat and I have signed (digital or otherwise). Your recommendation doesn't seem to be helping with the problem.

The contract  between you and Goat was in effect at the time you purchased the shares from Goat. You didn't buy them from GLBSE, and you didn't enter into a contract with GLBSE. The contract listed on the info page for that issue, wasn't between Goat and GLBSE, and it wasn't between GLBSE and you, it was between Goat and you.

The only purpose of the code, is so Goat can match up on his list, who owns what. GLBSE operated by keeping asset-holder's identities anonymous.

You're imagining a problem that simply doesn't exist.

But what about GLBSE's obligations to me? I and others will definitely lose time AND money merely because of how this decision is carried out.

What obligations to you are you talking about?

GLBSE's obligation of handling the shares I own. The claim code I got doesn't have identical qualities with the representation of shares I owned through GLBSE. Even the potential existence and nature of these codes were unknown prior to this event, probably even by GLBSE.

Never mind that I was exposed to a situation that I had no way of predicting. It is GLBSE's obligation to keep me out of needless trouble. I'm still waiting for an explanation of why these assets were de-listed without prior notice to me. You can argue that the de-listing is Goat's fault, but the fact that I'm wasting time here instead of productive work and the risk that I won't be able to redeem my shares is entirely GLBSE's doing.

GLBSE doesn't have that obligation to you. TYGRR shares aren't listed at GLBSE anymore, and they are not obligated to continue handling accounting for assets that aren't even on his exchange anymore.

The claim code represents your identity. Nothing more.

As for GLBSE's obligation to keep you out of needless trouble? That argument could be used to support GLBSE's delisting of the TYGRR assets, but even if it doesn't get used that way, GLBSE is under no obligation to save you from yourself, or to manage the assets you own, of a company that isn't even trading on their platform anymore.

Your ability to 'redeem' your codes is entirely in Goat's hands. He is handling the management of his asset's owners now himself.

-- Smoov

[Dalkore]

Why do you keep opening up GLBSE to such liability and bad publicity?

Not in my eyes. Actually this raises credibility of GLBSE.

Failure to meet obligations of SE can lead to delisting. SE is private held and its private relationship. SE has right to end relationship anytime (when there are justifiable reasons).

Good luck nefario!

I read through your posts.  You are user from a different account.  Your knowledge is well above a user with 26 post.   I call puppet.

[Smoovious]

1 - Give Nefario a btc address and get your customers money from him.
2 - Go to cryptostocks, open up assets corresponding to the assets you had on GLBSE.
3 - Send out communication to assetholders, put up a big notice on this forum, if you have a website then put a notice there, etc, etc.
4 - Have asset holders provide you with the claim code and a cryptostocks account, transfer them the shares.
5 - Stop whining.

Sure sounds reasonable let's see if we can do this...

Now what do I do if someone uses the code more than once? Since Nefario gave out the codes he will 100% back them correct?

Or what if they don't want a cryptostocks account?

Or I can't reach them?

In your comunications, explain clearly that codes will only be redemable once, to the first party that uses the code, and you are not liable if somebody lost or stole a code. Say something like "any shares not redemed in 3 months will be absorbed by the company". If they do not want a cryptostock account, I suppose they could sell the code to somebody who does.

You want people to sell the codes and you want me to reject some of the codes? You also want me to refuse people from using the codes after 3 months. umm... This is not going to end well...  Honestly this sound like something Nefario would suggest.

He's giving you perfectly sensible and logical advice, Goat. Seriously, if you're going to continue to be involved in financial dealings, you're going to have to do better than you've been doing.

Nobody wants to financially back someone apparently incapable of working out things for himself.

Quit being an ass.

-- Smoov

[JoelKatz]

TYGRR shares aren't listed at GLBSE anymore, and they are not obligated to continue handling accounting for assets that aren't even on his exchange anymore.

So let this be a warning to all GLBSE customers -- if GLBSE decides to delist any asset you hold, they believe they have no further obligation to track the ownership of that asset. And they are the only entity that *ever* had any such obligation. So if they delist, nobody has any obligation to track your ownership of the asset, unless the asset contract says otherwise.

Your ability to 'redeem' your codes is entirely in Goat's hands. He is handling the management of his asset's owners now himself.

Sorry, when did Goat agree to redeem the equivalent of bearer bonds? Bearer bonds have higher risks than listed securities, and I don't believe Goat ever contracted to assume that risk. GLBSE isn't assuming it, right?

Who gave GLBSE the authority to turn Goat's listed security into the functional equivalent of a bearer bond?

[MPOE-PR]

You want people to sell the codes and you want me to reject some of the codes? You also want me to refuse people from using the codes after 3 months. umm... This is not going to end well...  Honestly this sound like something Nefario would suggest.

It does, doesn't it. The same sort of ill-baked McGuyvering.

[Smoovious]

TYGRR shares aren't listed at GLBSE anymore, and they are not obligated to continue handling accounting for assets that aren't even on his exchange anymore.

So let this be a warning to all GLBSE customers -- if GLBSE decides to delist any asset you hold, they believe they have no further obligation to track the ownership of that asset. And they are the only entity that *ever* had any such obligation. So if they delist, nobody has any obligation to track your ownership of the asset, unless the asset contract says otherwise.

Your ability to 'redeem' your codes is entirely in Goat's hands. He is handling the management of his asset's owners now himself.

Sorry, when did Goat agree to redeem the equivalent of bearer bonds? Bearer bonds have higher risks than listed securities, and I don't believe Goat ever contracted to assume that risk. GLBSE isn't assuming it, right?

Who gave GLBSE the authority to turn Goat's listed security into the functional equivalent of a bearer bond?

Alright, look... I'm completely serious here, no joke...

You seriously need to learn what you're talking about, because you're just talking out of your ass.

Do yourself a favor and instead of your continued trolling, do something to actually learn something about what stocks and bonds are.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and you keep showing a pretty clear unwillingness to even learn about how things are actually done in the real world here.

Honest advice here, please heed it.

-- Smoov

[bitcoinbear]

You want people to sell the codes and you want me to reject some of the codes? You also want me to refuse people from using the codes after 3 months. umm... This is not going to end well...  Honestly this sound like something Nefario would suggest.

It does, doesn't it. The same sort of ill-baked McGuyvering.

So the alternative to what I suggested is what? Do absolutely nothing? Seems to be working out al right for you up to this point.

[MPOE-PR]

Bearer bonds have higher risks than listed securities,

Sadly you're not talking to people who understand what those words mean.