Bitcoin Forum

Where can I get such information?

I don't have it as you claim.

All TYGRR assets have been moved off GLBSE (delisted)

Goat has been given all the information he needs to be able to continue doing TYGRR's business and continue his relationship with his asset holders without GLBSE.

He has a list of codes which shows what code has how much of the asset.

If you had any TYGRR assets you will see the claim code in your portfolio.

Contact Goat with the claim code, and he will known how many of the asset you have, and you will be able to continue your relationship with him.

Nefario.

This is kind of creepy. 

I agree.  Don't get me wrong, this move is long overdue.  I'm worried about the precedent it sets though.

What precedent?

What precedent?

queerly, and late. Now, such actions on assets Goats do not seem logical.

queerly, and late. Now, such actions on assets Goats do not seem logical.
you can not just stop working with goat and spit on asset holders.
it will be a breach of contract and you are (GLBSE) contributing to this

I disagree. Your secret code is not a stock exchange. There is no place for me to send the BTC.

We've provided goat everything he needs to continue his relationship with his asset holders.

We can't be forced to do business with someone who is a liability.

If he believes that we've breached contract, he can take legal action against us.

I disagree. Your secret code is not a stock exchange. There is no place for me to send the BTC.

Yesterday was a sink of shares (not associated to the pirate), at a low price. Goats under contract, he can give me back my value of these shares, but at a low price. he will be right. and who provoked the situation when I lost money, I think is clear. you had to solve the problem together and find a way out.

This is not even close to being true.

This is not even close to being true.

Because I would need a second stock exchange and as you know we made a deal that I would not make one if you would give me real GLBSE stock. And now I have neither a second stock exchange or GLBSE stock.

How can I operated an exchange with software you had me not develop?

What a nefarious guy you are...

Yes I will need all of their BTC addresses to send them coins. I'm sure Nefario will send this soon enough.

Maybe we could avoid that and just set up a new exchange where people can just put in their "secret code" and make a claim.

Might be the way to do it.  

The way Nefario wants to do this is there is no longer liquidity. No way I can see peoples bids if they want to sell out.

Making dividend payments should be easy enough once a system is in place.

I'm sure Nefario will be reasonable and work something out once he cools down. He is just upset I would not trade him the "Fake" GLBSE assets. He is just upset and power tripping right now.

How many coins? And what if they don't want to sell? I would need to make dividend payments. Some bonds I can't even buy back or know the fair value to.

It is not workable like this.

An argument could be made that since the contracts were only available through GLBSE and GLBSE de-listed the contracts, that they are now voided.

It was sent to the email used for your GLBSE account. Where else would it be?

An argument could be made that since the contracts were only available through GLBSE and GLBSE de-listed the contracts, that they are now voided.

Actually no, Goat had his contracts on the forums, and anything thats not there I can put on the forum.

Rubbish, your a complete liability to do business with.

My obligation was with GLBSE. What happens if I pay back 50% and then GLBSE relists my assets like nothing happened? Then I'm really screwed as I owe them all again...

Why would glbse relist your assets ?

Wasn't your obligation to your asset holders not GLBSE?

What about GLBSE's Nefario's obligation, theyhe acts as the middle man, an asset issuer can't even get any data about who holds the asset.  Apparently GLBSENefario gets to fuck the issuers, then fuck the shareholders all while sitting in the middle with no liability, here's your secret code list, everything is all roses now.  If GLBSENefario is going to act like this, then theyhe need to get out from the middle of the shareholder-asset issuer relationship.  The asset issuer needs to know the usernames, withdraw addresses, number of shares owned of the shareholders.  Otherwise GLBSENefario DOES HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO THE SHAREHOLDERS AND THE ISSUERS.  One that is greater then, oh well weI quit, here's your secret code list.

You're very much mistaken.

Goat has been give a list of accounts with their balance, all an asset holder needs do is go to goat and give him their code.

We nolonger have any obligation to goat.

why was my balance/info given away to goat ? I hold some shares in tygrr , now i am being forced to contact goat to get my dividends (i dont talk to goat)

maybe give goat 3 months to close and delist his assets

+1

Nefario, I've been using GLBSE since day 1. I'm happy that GLBSE has become such a success, and I believe that your dependable character has been the most important factor.

This de-listing action is the first thing that really put me off from the platform. I can understand how an asset issuer can become a liability, but you are responsible for my convenience. I understand that Goat is still the owner of his company and needs to answer to his shareholders, but you are the one forcing me to spare my time and attention to something that I didn't ask for. If given notice, I would have traded my shares for probably much less than they should be worth, but I would still prefer that to dealing with this.

Besides, if the price was low enough, I could have bought a huge portion of the company that would make dealing with the situation worth my time. Maybe I could have arranged something totally different with the issuer about the payments.

You have taken this opportunity away, and in affect caused damage to your customers.

nefario does what nefario thinks is right (which is not always a bad thing; actually i like people who act this way. but NOT as an exchange operator).

this is only the first action which causes harm to share holders - all others only harmed issuers.

This is the kind of response to a real question that makes you not suitable to manage other peoples money.

Nefario, your responses in this thread exemplify why it is completely unsafe to list or purchase anything on GLBSE at this time. You've acted very arbitrarily in this, and show no signs of not doing such in the future. I recommend that investors get their money out ASAP, and asset issuers find a way to get their assets listed on other exchanges before money losses are incurred.

"We refuse to do business with you Goat" - Seriously - you had an obligation to the holders of Goat's assets, and you have fucked them. Good job. Yet again, GLBSE fucks investors while trying to fuck Goat. That was one of my first GLBSE experiences, and it will be one of my last. You really don't get it, do you, Nefario?

This is kind of creepy.  Where in the TOS does it say that assets can be de-listed at any time?  It says they can stop trading but nothing about being de-listed.

I really think there should be some kind of contract between GLBSE and the asset issuers that is more than a TOS that can be changed at anytime.

Because I would need a second stock exchange and as you know we made a deal that I would not make one if you would give me real GLBSE stock. And now I have neither a second stock exchange or GLBSE stock.
 

e-mail is not secure.  smtp sends messages clear text.  

was this sent, encrypted with goat's public pgp key?

if not, there is no way for these to be used to claim anything since they were not transmitted in a secure manner.  

if goat's system was compromised, or some hacker was sniffing smtp traffic between glbse and hi, goat could get a claim from just about anybody.

Why would glbse relist your assets ?

The real risk is created when he exercises his complete authority with the appearance of whim or perfidy.  The fact that he singles out individuals for delisting/freezing/etc. based on various "legal" reasons exposes him to liability for all the other scams traded on his exchange.  By policing a few, he must police them all.

In addition, by acting arbitrarily, he exposes himself to accusations of wrongful conduct as his actions injure various parties.

Nefario has already admitted that he has permitted illicit activity up to this point and is only remediating his profitable criminal complicity at this time in order to gain government recognition as a trading entity.  The smartest move at this point would be to close GLBSE completely, responsibly settle accounts, and then establish a new exchange with stricter controls necessary for compliance.

However, he is in a situation where he wants to eat his cake and have it as well.  This will cause difficulty.

You mean the way MPEx does things? Myeah.

For the exact reason it delisted them. Because Nefario is an unpredictable idiot.

Your behaviour doesnt attract people to your platform either.

Your behaviour doesnt attract people to your platform either.

Even though Goat is acting like a 12 year old who isn't allowed to have a second ice-cream, this was totally uncalled for.

Nefario, your responses in this thread exemplify why it is completely unsafe to list or purchase anything on GLBSE at this time. You've acted very arbitrarily in this, and show no signs of not doing such in the future. I recommend that investors get their money out ASAP, and asset issuers find a way to get their assets listed on other exchanges before money losses are incurred.

Just because of your ridiculous, petty "PR" forum account, I'm never going near the MPwhatever exchange.

Compare the facts, will you.

+1

Just because of your ridiculous, petty "PR" forum account, I'm never going near the MPwhatever exchange.

Im not saying it to be an asshole. GLBSE needs a serious competitor not a crazy acting one.

Nefario, what do you expect me to do with this code now?

Nefario, is that's how PPT peddlers are removed form the equation?
Goat is down, but what about the rest of the jokers?
If they had any BTC in GLBSE, will this be redistributed to PPT holders?

Are you willing to work with another exchange and figure out how to transfer the delisted shares and user data (name, share balance etc)?

He probably would do that if one offered that isnt MPEX  :)

MPEx was never open for the sort of crud GLBSE lists.

Please stop bashing at GLBSE: That's no the point of this discussion.

And if you want to be a serious concurrent, work on you site, it's unusable for anyone not suffering from a Savant syndrome.


Back to topic:

Nefario, I can understand you are upset, but please try for a moment to see it from the perspective from Tygrr shareholders. Removing all Tygrr assets instantly, without further notice to the shareholders is like a punch in the face from you to all Tygrr shareholders.

Please reconsider this.

The thing is MPEx owns this market. The other thing is, you're a ridiculous shill. The third thing is, much like honest bob above, the pyraponzi stuff you use in your signature makes you about as irrelevant as roadkill.

Phrases in contracts like "in case GLBSE is no longer a viable platform" etc seemed to me overcautious... how ingenuous I am.

Cryptostocks seems nice, but, does anyone know if they are any more reliable?

I'm sure Nefario will be reasonable and work something out once he cools down. He is just upset I would not trade him the "Fake" GLBSE assets. He is just upset and power tripping right now.

I've spoken to cryptostocks, asking about enabling a method for assets to move from GLBSE easily to there,  he had no interest.

Not a wise decision. Networking would not be a bad idea. Have asked the other  exchanges?

You're the bottom of the barrel, of course not.  People look up from where you are, not down.

What other exchanges?

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Aug 17 20:54:30 2012

Aug 17 20:54:30 <nefario>        which reminds me
Aug 17 20:54:38 <nefario>        I wanted to talk to you about options on GLBSE
Aug 17 20:54:48 <mircea_popescu>        aha ?
Aug 17 20:55:12 <nefario>        I'd like to add them ASAP
Aug 17 20:55:46 <nefario>        so would be looking at adding mpex as the options provider
Aug 17 20:55:51 <nefario>        or engine
Aug 17 20:56:01 <mircea_popescu>        rg was saying something about that.
Aug 17 20:56:14 <nefario>        I haven't talked to anyone else about it
Aug 17 20:56:20 <nefario>        just been an idea floating in my head
Aug 17 20:56:23 <mircea_popescu>        really ?! odd.
Aug 17 20:56:49 <nefario>        i've not gone into much detail on the implementation of options
Aug 17 20:57:03 <nefario>        and assume that your platform for it is fairly sound
Aug 17 20:57:11 <mircea_popescu>        it's done okay so far.
Aug 17 20:57:24 <nefario>        well you know what I mean
Aug 17 20:57:28 <mircea_popescu>        but in truth, bitcoin is a very dubious thing, so we don't really know.
Aug 17 20:57:46 <nefario>        its been running as long as GLBSE 2.0 has without any big fuckups
Aug 17 20:57:58 <nefario>        which in this day seems to be a major thing
Aug 17 20:58:00 <mircea_popescu>        actually it's been running since before bitcoinica.
Aug 17 20:59:06 <nefario>        something like that
Aug 17 20:59:13 <mircea_popescu>        yeah.
Aug 17 20:59:15 <nefario>        interested?
Aug 17 20:59:50 <mircea_popescu>        what'd i be interested in ?
Aug 17 21:00:24 <nefario>        having mpex and GLBSE hooked in together to provide options for all assets on GLBSE
Aug 17 21:01:50 <mircea_popescu>        not really.
Aug 17 21:02:36 <nefario>        fair enough
Aug 17 21:02:40 <nefario>        thought you might be
Aug 17 21:02:43 <nefario>        later
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Aug 17 21:54:39 2012

Fuckwit.

The thing is MPEx owns this market. The other thing is, you're a ridiculous shill. The third thing is, much like honest bob above, the pyraponzi stuff you use in your signature makes you about as irrelevant as roadkill.

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Aug 17 20:54:30 2012

Aug 17 20:54:30 <nefario>        which reminds me
Aug 17 20:54:38 <nefario>        I wanted to talk to you about options on GLBSE
Aug 17 20:54:48 <mircea_popescu>        aha ?
Aug 17 20:55:12 <nefario>        I'd like to add them ASAP
Aug 17 20:55:46 <nefario>        so would be looking at adding mpex as the options provider
Aug 17 20:55:51 <nefario>        or engine
Aug 17 20:56:01 <mircea_popescu>        rg was saying something about that.
Aug 17 20:56:14 <nefario>        I haven't talked to anyone else about it
Aug 17 20:56:20 <nefario>        just been an idea floating in my head
Aug 17 20:56:23 <mircea_popescu>        really ?! odd.
Aug 17 20:56:49 <nefario>        i've not gone into much detail on the implementation of options
Aug 17 20:57:03 <nefario>        and assume that your platform for it is fairly sound
Aug 17 20:57:11 <mircea_popescu>        it's done okay so far.
Aug 17 20:57:24 <nefario>        well you know what I mean
Aug 17 20:57:28 <mircea_popescu>        but in truth, bitcoin is a very dubious thing, so we don't really know.
Aug 17 20:57:46 <nefario>        its been running as long as GLBSE 2.0 has without any big fuckups
Aug 17 20:57:58 <nefario>        which in this day seems to be a major thing
Aug 17 20:58:00 <mircea_popescu>        actually it's been running since before bitcoinica.
Aug 17 20:59:06 <nefario>        something like that
Aug 17 20:59:13 <mircea_popescu>        yeah.
Aug 17 20:59:15 <nefario>        interested?
Aug 17 20:59:50 <mircea_popescu>        what'd i be interested in ?
Aug 17 21:00:24 <nefario>        having mpex and GLBSE hooked in together to provide options for all assets on GLBSE
Aug 17 21:01:50 <mircea_popescu>        not really.
Aug 17 21:02:36 <nefario>        fair enough
Aug 17 21:02:40 <nefario>        thought you might be
Aug 17 21:02:43 <nefario>        later
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Aug 17 21:54:39 2012

Fuckwit.

Wow. Thanks to Nefario's behavior, I'm leaving GLBSE. Thanks to MPOE-PR's behavior, I'm never touching MPEX. And cryptostocks lists nothing worth investing in.

 :(

I've spoken to cryptostocks, asking about enabling a method for assets to move from GLBSE easily to there,  he had no interest.

Install an Open Transactions client... The main reason there is only one Open Transactions server running so far is so few people have a client yet; the more people with clients, the more servers that will spring up to meet the demand...

-MarkM-

Wow. Thanks to Nefario's behavior, I'm leaving GLBSE. Thanks to MPOE-PR's behavior, I'm never touching MPEX. And cryptostocks lists nothing worth investing in.

 :(

nefario and goat are both acting like children, having a mudfight on the backs of their customers. I'm disappointed in both.

The big difference? Mircea's & MPOE-PR's behaviours don't affect the amount of money I make, nor the value of the assets I'm holding. On multiple occasions, nefario's behaviour has lost me money.

As a matter of fact, I've seen mircea on IRC quite a bit lately. Looking through the logs, he appears to be his normal (asshole) self...but, despite that, it appears MPEx is making more and more money.

In my experience when someone with greater technical or financial skills point out errors in others' works, they take offense. After repeatedly pointing out the same errors, the person with experience tends toward impatient, as he or she knows that the only reasons for repetition of error is either incompetence, or criminal intent. When the person with skill points out incompetence, or criminal intent with impatience, invariably, "asshole" is the description.

By the above logic, I believe, you're correct in stating mircea is an asshole. And this is why I sent him 20BTC....I paid that for risk avoidance (well, and some lulz now and again)

Money well spent. Come to think of it...I pay Mircea to be an asshole. He does a great job ;)

See, and now nefario is trying to legitimize his platform, but he's ignoring the people who've brought his platform to be what it is, and, judging from the number of people I've seen withdrawing money, and bailing on GLBSE, that's not working out so well for him. But, then....he caused values of shares on his exchange to drop in value through his personal actions (which do not enjoy the support of all the GLBSE shareholders) I can only see this as the actions of an ass. And that's not who I want holding my wealth.

Cryptostocks seems nice, but, does anyone know if they are any more reliable?

I've spoken to cryptostocks, asking about enabling a method for assets to move from GLBSE easily to there,  he had no interest.

Cryptostocks will be dead soon anyways. Vircurex foolishly started running an unlicensed lottery. He will have German authorities knocking on his door in no time.

A pink sheets market is possible with bitcoin but you need qualified financial brokers doing it not the general public, since only qualified financial advisors can hold stock broking licenses. You cant sell shares directly to the public as all of the bitcoin stock exchanges currently do and this is where the problem begins.

Does this mean that unlike the proliferation of forex sites, there are no sites I can go to and just buy myself some stocks/shares without having to get ahold of a broker in chat or email or something and chat with the broker about my needs so the broker can decide whether they consider me a fit person to sell stocks to?

I do like the idea of brokers actually as a person who runs one or more Open Transactions servers. It seems to me it would be great to have brokers to point at any time anyone claims Open Transactions is "not for grandmothers" and tell them hey go get one of those brokers in videochat tell them what you want send them money and whether they use Open Transactions or the New York Stock Exchange or the Toronto Stock Exchange or an Excell spreadsheet is all on their side not yours, you just talk to the nice broker and dont' worry your head about those kinds of details...

-MarkM=

But thats not fair to me and other asset holders! We agree,it's not fair to holders of this asset, to other issers [sic], asset holders and GLBSE itself. Delisting is a last measure when trying to deal with problematic asset issuers who are actively trying to damage GLBSE. We have a responsibility to all asset issuers and asset holders on GLBSE, if any one person is doing something that puts everyone else at risk, including GLBSE operators then they have to leave. This is a market we all share, for it to work we must all play nice.

I tend to avoid commenting on emotion loaded threads such as this, because hardly ever anything good comes from it. Nevertheless, as Cryptostocks was refered to several times, it's time to speak up.

Our concept is to have as little regulation as necessary on security listings, other than legality of the business model (drugs, weapons, etc. or for obvious reasons not allowed). It shouldn't be the Exchange's responsibility to judge financial viability of securities. It's the investor's right and obligation to do so, it's the investors decision in what he wants to invest it, it's the investors decision on whom to trust and whom not to trust. A verification system with various levels is available for each and every security issuer to choose from. If you don't want to be verified, then don't, but this is transparent to the community. Going forward we'll put in a rating system that highlights if or not a security is currently in violation of its contract terms, i.e. its not to be considered a buying or selling recommendation but merely another indicator to consider in the investor's decision making process.

The "no interest" is in respect to "take all securities that get bumped of GLBSE". Before we mass migrate securities, I'ld like to get a better understanding on why they are being delisted. If it is only about ToS and verification, then those securities are more than welcome, if it is about proven ponzi schemes and frauds, then needless to say that Cryptostocks doesn't want them either.
As I mentioned above, in general anyone is welcome to list a security. If you need a new home for your security, contact me and I am sure we (Cryptostocks, GLBSE and the security issuer) can work out a workable solution in the interest of the shareholders.

So we should do nothing then?

I personally have no problem that GLBSE delists some assets. IMO, they even have to delist some assets.

I only have a problem with they way this was handled. This seems really unprofessional.

A Professional solution would have been (could still be) (IMO, of course):

• Notify Goat that his assets will be delisted, give him one week time to work out a exit strategy.
• After that week make a public notification or a user notification on GLBSE, with a link to a thread where Goat has a chance to present his exit strategy
• Give him at least 3 Weeks Time for his exit

Why has this to be done so suddenly?
This precedent that any asset could be kicked of immediately, if the issuer just pissed you off enough may give some people a uneasy feeling.

Thank you.
Cryptostocks might be small at the moment, but it seems to improve quite fast and in a good direction.  A Developer Log for example is a good thing. Although the biggest hurdle of leaving the uncertain status to become legitimate, is likely still to come.

what i dont like about this is:
 - whoever sees that message first (this includes bond issuer) has the opportunity to sell all at a (relative) high price

that's why before publishing such message there usually will be a suspension of trading for half or one day in the traditional exchange.

what i dont like about this is:
 - whoever sees that message first (this includes bond issuer) has the opportunity to sell all at a (relative) high price
 - if someone does not want to sell his assets they are stolen

this could even be used to scam people.

open a ponzi like asset
wait for glbse to close it
profit for bond issuer because he decided his exit strategy is "people: sell all of your shares"

i dont think there should be any way a market place can delist an asset EXCEPT no one (except issuer) holds shares.

Where did I say, that the exit strategy will be set in stone because the issuer says so? He still has to stay by his contract (so nobody gets shares stolen, no profit for the issuer by saying shareholder have to do as he says). But he could buyback shares according to contract or make arrangements with another exchange (for example.)

Still better than Nefario just hitting a Killswitch

that's why before publishing such message there usually will be a suspension of trading for half or one day in the traditional exchange.

A notice on GLBSE. I wondered why I never saw it  ::)

I assume this is directed at me so I will ask, how am I "actively trying to damage GLBSE" ?  

Honestly my fight to keep my assets from forced sale was to protect GLBSE. I was trying to make it clear that GLBSE would not just steal assets. Clearly I was wrong :/

Just clearing the order book without suspending trading would have been helpful too...

Goat, would you please re-list the assets in a different exchange? Cryptostocks seems like a perfect drop-in replacement. I know it would be hard to match accounts, but claim codes are already anonymous, and this might pave the way to move shares between exchanges, so maybe Cryptostocks would even help with the process?

you are right.
even if glbse delist his asset the issuer still has to honor his contract.
its just not easy to see if he really does.

GLBSE issuers cannot honor their contracts without the assistance of GLBSE. They do no know who the asset holders are, and so cannot pay them.

This would only work if either every single holder of his securities is honest or the community trusts him and GLBSE enough to believe that anyone who claims Goat refused to honor a claim code must be lying. I don't think either of these things are true. Do you?

(He actually could do a two-phase redemption. But considering he has no way to contact all his asset holders to arrange such a thing, the fact that it's technically possible doesn't help much.)

But thats not fair to me and other asset holders! We agree,it's not fair to holders of this asset, to other issers, asset holders and GLBSE itself. Delisting is a last measure when trying to deal with problematic asset issuers who are actively trying to damage GLBSE. We have a responsibility to all asset issuers and asset holders on GLBSE, if any one person is doing something that puts everyone else at risk, including GLBSE operators then they have to leave. This is a market we all share, for it to work we must all play nice.

this could work,

but what stops the issuer to simply say "operation closed" (of course: if he has a buyback clause this wouldnt work, but without it seems to be a good way for easy money)?

GLBSE issuers cannot honor their contracts without the assistance of GLBSE. They do no know who the asset holders are, and so cannot pay them.

UK equivelent of the SEC

Which is why IMHO the optimal solution is some cryptographic based smart property type system.  Now asset owners and shareholders could CHOOSE to use a smart-property compatible exchange for ease and liquidity but that wouldn't be a requirement.  The shareholder-asset-owner relationship should be able to survive the removal of the exchange.

I mean lets step back.  What happens tomorrow if Nefario is arrested by the UK equivelent of the SEC and the servers seized?  Is the answer "Oops?".

Ahh, if only GLBSE was based on gpg signatures, like the real exchange is. In that case all these problems wouldn't exist, would they.

Why do you keep opening up GLBSE to such liability and bad publicity?

Not in my eyes. Actually this raises credibility of GLBSE.

Failure to meet obligations of SE can lead to delisting. SE is private held and its private relationship. SE has right to end relationship anytime (when there are justifiable reasons).

How? The problem isn't de-listing of a company, it's how it's done. What is your personal recommendation for people who are holding these shares?

Of course. But what about GLBSE's obligations to me? I and others will definitely lose time AND money merely because of how this decision is carried out.

I would recommend people who hold assets of the delisted company, contact the person who is operating the delisted company, as that person is who controls your shares.

What obligations to you are you talking about?

Both parties agreed that GLBSE would control who owned the shares. GLBSE gave them to Goat. They're not bearer bonds, they're not "your shares" just because you have a claim code issued by GLBSE. GLBSE has no authority to issue its customers claim codes that Goat must redeem. Goat never agreed to effectively a bearer bond and he certainly never agreed (nor would have under any circumstances) to a scheme where GLBSE issues its customers claim codes that Goat must honor.

I would assume GLBSE's obligation to secure its customers assets and transfer control of them only as agreed rather than giving them to the issuer without authorization from either party.

Both parties agreed that GLBSE would control who owned the shares. GLBSE gave them to Goat. They're not bearer bonds, they're not "your shares" just because you have a claim code issued by GLBSE. GLBSE has no authority to issue its customers claim codes that Goat must redeem. Goat never agreed to effectively a bearer bond and he certainly never agreed (nor would have under any circumstances) to a scheme where GLBSE issues its customers claim codes that Goat must honor.

I would assume GLBSE's obligation to secure its customers assets and transfer control of them only as agreed rather than giving them to the issuer without authorization from either party.

GLBSE's obligation to companies listed with his exchange, is to handle the accounting of who has what. TYGRR issues, are no longer listed with his exchange, and his exchange no longer handles that accounting.

The claim codes aren't for "redeeming", they are so Goat can match up which shares belong to which asset-holder.

Since GLBSE operates with anonymous asset-holders, the claim codes represent the owner of the asset shares. It is up to the asset-holder, to self-identify themselves to Goat, so Goat knows who owns which shares.

The asset shares, were always associated with Goat's issues. They never belonged to, nor were in the possession of, GLBSE. All GLBSE did, was facilitate the trading of other people's shares, and handle the accounting work for the listed issue. Any obligations towards the shares you owned, are between you and the asset-issuer, via the contract they posted.

When a company delists from the NYSE, either voluntary, or through eviction, you may or may not get any warning about it. The company is supplied records showing the last state of trading at the time of the delisting, and the NYSE is no longer involved. The companies would either deal with their shareholders directly, or re-list on another exchange, like the NASDAQ. Companies moving from one exchange to another, or delisting to go private, is not necessarily common, but it isn't unusual either.

Being delisted from the GLBSE, just means that the TYGRR issues, are no longer traded through the GLBSE. That's it. It doesn't mean that you've been robbed of your shares, or that Nefario kept them, which he hasn't. Your shares still exist, as they always have, as that is between you and the company/issuer. The only thing that has changed, is it is not as convenient to trade them now as they used to be, since now, essentially, you're dealing with a private company/issue.

I would recommend people who hold assets of the delisted company, contact the person who is operating the delisted company, as that person is who controls your shares.

What obligations to you are you talking about?

The agreement already is between the issuer and the asset holder and glbse doesnt own anything. The codes simply tell goat which amount of shares belongs to which owner and if he really wanted to he could simply setup a new account at another exchange and issue people shares as they redeem the codes.

I would also like to know why they were delisted. There should be an official reason if not well who knows who is next. Diablo-D3's operation was unfrozen after a month. No action was taken or explanation on why it was frozen and then unfrozen.

James McCarthy (GLBSE)

Sep 27 09:10 (HKT)

Hi XXXX,
if the issuer doesn't honor his agreement then you should press for legal action. The agreement is between the issuer and the asset holder. You may consider a group action.

The issuer has been given all the information he needs to identify asset holders and their balances.

Since the asset is no longer on GLBSE we are no longer involved.

GLBSE support.



It seems Nefario is telling people that they should call the police on me. That is a funny joke cuz only GLBSE can prove they ever had the shares.

These guys get to the police station and try to file a report. Police ask them for evidence, they say Nefario deleted it all (including the contracts) and gave them some "code" that no one accepts.

There is no way they can make a claim against me. It is really beyond the point of silliness.

Sure sounds reasonable let's see if we can do this...

Now what do I do if someone uses the code more than once? Since Nefario gave out the codes he will 100% back them correct?

Or what if they don't want a cryptostocks account?

Or I can't reach them?

Sure sounds reasonable let's see if we can do this...

Now what do I do if someone uses the code more than once? Since Nefario gave out the codes he will 100% back them correct?

Or what if they don't want a cryptostocks account?

Or I can't reach them?

Rubbish, your a complete liability to do business with.

You want people to sell the codes and you want me to reject some of the codes? You also want me to refuse people from using the codes after 3 months. umm... This is not going to end well...  Honestly this sound like something Nefario would suggest.

The real risk is created when he exercises his complete authority with the appearance of whim or perfidy.  The fact that he singles out individuals for delisting/freezing/etc. based on various "legal" reasons exposes him to liability for all the other scams traded on his exchange.  By policing a few, he must police them all.

In addition, by acting arbitrarily, he exposes himself to accusations of wrongful conduct as his actions injure various parties.

Nefario has already admitted that he has permitted illicit activity up to this point and is only remediating his profitable criminal complicity at this time in order to gain government recognition as a trading entity.  The smartest move at this point would be to close GLBSE completely, responsibly settle accounts, and then establish a new exchange with stricter controls necessary for compliance.

However, he is in a situation where he wants to eat his cake and have it as well.  This will cause difficulty.

A redeeming code I get from GLBSE does not equate a contract Goat and I have signed (digital or otherwise). Your recommendation doesn't seem to be helping with the problem.

GLBSE's obligation of handling the shares I own. The claim code I got doesn't have identical qualities with the representation of shares I owned through GLBSE. Even the potential existence and nature of these codes were unknown prior to this event, probably even by GLBSE.

Never mind that I was exposed to a situation that I had no way of predicting. It is GLBSE's obligation to keep me out of needless trouble. I'm still waiting for an explanation of why these assets were de-listed without prior notice to me. You can argue that the de-listing is Goat's fault, but the fact that I'm wasting time here instead of productive work and the risk that I won't be able to redeem my shares is entirely GLBSE's doing.

Not in my eyes. Actually this raises credibility of GLBSE.

Failure to meet obligations of SE can lead to delisting. SE is private held and its private relationship. SE has right to end relationship anytime (when there are justifiable reasons).

Good luck nefario!

You want people to sell the codes and you want me to reject some of the codes? You also want me to refuse people from using the codes after 3 months. umm... This is not going to end well...  Honestly this sound like something Nefario would suggest.

TYGRR shares aren't listed at GLBSE anymore, and they are not obligated to continue handling accounting for assets that aren't even on his exchange anymore.

Your ability to 'redeem' your codes is entirely in Goat's hands. He is handling the management of his asset's owners now himself.

You want people to sell the codes and you want me to reject some of the codes? You also want me to refuse people from using the codes after 3 months. umm... This is not going to end well...  Honestly this sound like something Nefario would suggest.

So let this be a warning to all GLBSE customers -- if GLBSE decides to delist any asset you hold, they believe they have no further obligation to track the ownership of that asset. And they are the only entity that *ever* had any such obligation. So if they delist, nobody has any obligation to track your ownership of the asset, unless the asset contract says otherwise.Sorry, when did Goat agree to redeem the equivalent of bearer bonds? Bearer bonds have higher risks than listed securities, and I don't believe Goat ever contracted to assume that risk. GLBSE isn't assuming it, right?

Who gave GLBSE the authority to turn Goat's listed security into the functional equivalent of a bearer bond?

It does, doesn't it. The same sort of ill-baked McGuyvering.

Bearer bonds have higher risks than listed securities,

Sadly you're not talking to people who understand what those words mean.

Alright, look... I'm completely serious here, no joke...

You seriously need to learn what you're talking about, because you're just talking out of your ass.

Do yourself a favor and instead of your continued trolling, do something to actually learn something about what stocks and bonds are.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and you keep showing a pretty clear unwillingness to even learn about how things are actually done in the real world here.

Honest advice here, please heed it.

This is nonsense for multiple reasons, among which is the simple and obvious one that you can't have contracts between unknown parties. The only valid way to treat financials in BTC is as stemming from a contract between the issuer and the exchange (which is to say, the way MPEx does it).



This.

A pedophile like Mircea Popescu, knows everything about anything.

Why do we keep resulting to personal character assassinations?   I get, you don't agree with their personal decisions, I don't either.  We should stick to the topic at hand and YOU should make another thread in "Off-topic" to discuss that users personal choices.



Smoovious  - What is your angle?  You are really vocal on this issue and really going after Goat.  Do you have a large exposure on GBLSE that this conversation is affect its value because customers of this exchange are vocalizing their dis-satisfaction with the policies and actions in a public forum?

Nefario - Will you please release your official statement on why Goat is a liability to "your" exchange?  We need to put this issue to rest because at this point, it looks like you did this because of a PERSONAL issue with Goat and not because he violated your TOS.   Your silence on this issue really makes people start to think that Maybe Goat has a point regardless if you like him as a person and a user on this forum.

Kindly,
D

The pedophile Mircea Popescu comes in every thread trowing garbage around. I will do the same for him. The difference is that, all I say about him is true.

Smoovious  - What is your angle?  You are really vocal on this issue and really going after Goat.  Do you have a large exposure on GBLSE that this conversation is affect its value because customers of this exchange are vocalizing their dis-satisfaction with the policies and actions in a public forum?

The contract  between you and Goat was in effect at the time you purchased the shares from Goat. You didn't buy them from GLBSE, and you didn't enter into a contract with GLBSE. The contract listed on the info page for that issue, wasn't between Goat and GLBSE, and it wasn't between GLBSE and you, it was between Goat and you.

The only purpose of the code, is so Goat can match up on his list, who owns what. GLBSE operated by keeping asset-holder's identities anonymous.

You're imagining a problem that simply doesn't exist.

GLBSE doesn't have that obligation to you. TYGRR shares aren't listed at GLBSE anymore, and they are not obligated to continue handling accounting for assets that aren't even on his exchange anymore.

The claim code represents your identity. Nothing more.

As for GLBSE's obligation to keep you out of needless trouble? That argument could be used to support GLBSE's delisting of the TYGRR assets, but even if it doesn't get used that way, GLBSE is under no obligation to save you from yourself, or to manage the assets you own, of a company that isn't even trading on their platform anymore.

Your ability to 'redeem' your codes is entirely in Goat's hands. He is handling the management of his asset's owners now himself.

Nah, I don't have a large exposure anywhere. My BTC wealth isn't large enough to even be considered "meager" with the low hashrate I have, but that also means, that I can't just simply write things off as easily as others that do have large exposures.

I had more exposure with the pirate fiasco that I ended up getting hurt on a lot, but you didn't see me going off half-cocked about it. I rolled the dice, I lost, so be it.

I just hate all this fake controversy BS. People spouting out stuff as if they know what the F they're talking about when they don't, and don't even know enough to recognize that they don't know.

This escalation to make a big public spectacle of the whole thing, originated with Goat, from everything I understand, and after seeing his behavior over other issues, like a MtGox one a while back, he just isn't stable.

The only thing to gain by escalating it with this tantrum of his has the only purpose of trying to bring down GLBSE and Nefario. Any honest disagreement they had has been lost a long time ago by now. It just sickens me that supposedly intelligent people keep acting this way without the apparent ability to apply reason and logic.

I mean, seriously... OMGF!!! WHAT DO I DO IF SOMEONE USES A CODE TWICE!!? Figure it out... you don't have mommy around here to save you.

WHAT IF THE LIST ISN'T ACCURATE!!!... well, when you actually have some evidence of it not being accurate, then you have something to discuss, which can be verified by Nefario's last records if there is a dispute, but if yer not even going to bother trying to match the claim ID's to the asset-holders who present them, you don't have a leg to stand on. Any failure is on your shoulders if you can't be bothered to try to make good with your asset-holders.

BUT NEFARIO IS HOLDING MY BTC SO I CAN'T PAY ANYBODY!!!... the sooner you give him a BTC addy to send your balance to, the sooner you have them. this is a problem of your own making, man up, shut the F up, and give him an address to send your coin to, the only one preventing it is Goat himself.

Come on! Are the rest of you really so damned stupid that you keep falling for all of the BS that keeps getting posted? Are so many of you honestly so incapable of spotting BS and calling people on it when you see it?

Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK people...

Grow up.

-- Smoov

This escalation to make a big public spectacle of the whole thing, originated with Goat, from everything I understand, and after seeing his behavior over other issues, like a MtGox one a while back, he just isn't stable.

The only thing to gain by escalating it with this tantrum of his has the only purpose of trying to bring down GLBSE and Nefario. Any honest disagreement they had has been lost a long time ago by now. It just sickens me that supposedly intelligent people keep acting this way without the apparent ability to apply reason and logic.

I mean, seriously... OMGF!!! WHAT DO I DO IF SOMEONE USES A CODE TWICE!!? Figure it out... you don't have mommy around here to save you.

WHAT IF THE LIST ISN'T ACCURATE!!!... well, when you actually have some evidence of it not being accurate, then you have something to discuss, which can be verified by Nefario's last records if there is a dispute, but if yer not even going to bother trying to match the claim ID's to the asset-holders who present them, you don't have a leg to stand on. Any failure is on your shoulders if you can't be bothered to try to make good with your asset-holders.

BUT NEFARIO IS HOLDING MY BTC SO I CAN'T PAY ANYBODY!!!... the sooner you give him a BTC addy to send your balance to, the sooner you have them. this is a problem of your own making, man up, shut the F up, and give him an address to send your coin to, the only one preventing it is Goat himself.

So this is more about revenge on Mircea Popescu than actually adding to this discussion?  Carry-on I guess??? 

I just hope you realize we have a real important issue here with one of our exchanges and a large bond issuer and investors need to understand what the rules to this game are so we don't take on more risk that we calculated in the first place minus any Force majeure.

I agree with you, but the fact that Mircea Popescu is a pedophile running a porno website on the same domain as a bitcoin exchange is a big liability.

I mean, seriously... OMFG!!! WHAT DO I DO IF SOMEONE USES A CODE TWICE!!? Figure it out... you don't have mommy around here to save you.

It's all about what kind of establishment GLBSE is. Some of us have experience in developing and running similar services and can extrapolate from details we notice. Do you suggest I stay with this particular company after they have demonstrated incompetence in such a minor issue? It's of no consequence whether I can figure it out. Why do you think they didn't figure it out, instead of me? What do I pay them for? I was also considering buying a big chunk of GLBSE and now I'm not. These are very practical matters that one may need to figure out. You know, we don't have a mommy around and all that.

Please pay more attention to differentiating the important issues from the trolling, both of which is going on in the same thread.

I mean, seriously... OMFG!!! WHAT DO I DO IF SOMEONE USES A CODE TWICE!!? Figure it out... you don't have mommy around here to save you.

WHAT IF THE LIST ISN'T ACCURATE!!!... well, when you actually have some evidence of it not being accurate, then you have something to discuss,

BUT NEFARIO IS HOLDING MY BTC SO I CAN'T PAY ANYBODY!!!... the sooner you give him a BTC addy to send your balance to, the sooner you have them.

Come on! Are the rest of you really so damned stupid that you keep falling for all of the BS that keeps getting posted? Are so many of you honestly so incapable of spotting BS and calling people on it when you see it?

Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK people...

We need clarification on this issue, if Goat can be treated like this, others might be as well.   It really seems like with the Pirate scam and these "fake" assets with promises made, this action was not actually by policy but something more and we have a right to know what these hidden polices are or atleast to know there are policies we will NOT know about and this can happen if YOUR asset issuers is an ASSHAT on these forums or too Nefario directly.  

Can you please provide proof he or she (don't know) is a pedophile?   Do you have their rap-sheet or something?  


I did not know what was the case.  That is a big liability and it should be remedied immediately.  

Thank you for giving me some context.  I have seen this claim a few times but it was always in debates so I did not know the back-story.  Proof would be good to settle the matter or please refrain.

Here is a thread about it. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102333.0

A lot of the models on his website look very underage, beside cut up babies and other things.

The way I see it, you're going to keep having two camps. One camp who believes that the exchange has to put up with all the BS that is being fanned by the owners of the companies listed on their exchange, even if that BS is detrimental to the exchange itself, and you'll have the other camp who believes that no company has a right to be listed on the exchange, and the exchange can't be forced to keep a company listed, or be forced to continue trading, or handling, any transactions involved with the now-delisted company.

I'm in the latter camp.

Smoovious - Can you elaborate on this?  What are these actions that were initiated with the sole purpose to harm GBLSE?

I agree that Goat did a lot to escalate this situation, but from what is publicly known, it really looks like the real escalation was Nefario's decision to immediately delist all of Goat's assets. Because this had a serious harmful effect on GLBSE's customers, Nefario should not have done this without an extremely good reason, and no such reason is known.

Ideally, Nefario should have just let Goat bloviate in the forums for awhile. He would have prevailed on the scam accusation regarding his offer, as he in fact did. Nefario would have looked like the mature adult and Goat would have looked like he usually does. And that would have been that. GLBSE would have protected its customers' interests in their assets.

If the decision had to be that Goat was such a great risk that GLBSE did not want to list his assets anymore, which is GLBSE's right to decide, that could have been handled *way* better. Suspending trading, removing all pending orders, try to work with Goat on a redemption scheme, possibly allow trading for a limited period of time (with a click-through warning) for those who don't like the terms of the redemption scheme, and so on.

Well, the other purpose is to fix this problem for good. For example, asset contracts should include an explanation of what happens if an asset is delisted. GLBSE should have a policy that reserves immediate delisting for only the very most severe cases. The contours of GLBSE's obligation to protect its customers' ownership interests should be more precisely defined. GLBSE could emerge from this stronger.

The problem is that this is a risk GLBSE unilaterally imposed on Goat and nobody has yet figured it out.

How would this work? Say someone presents a claim code to Goat that isn't on his list. If that person makes a scammer accusation and GLBSE doesn't say anything publicly, what happens? Is GLBSE obligated to help Goat resolve the issue? If not, then you are asking Goat to take a huge risk.

If that really is the issue, then that shouldn't be an issue. I agree.

It's all about what kind of establishment GLBSE is. Some of us have experience in developing and running similar services and can extrapolate from details we notice. Do you suggest I stay with this particular company after they have demonstrated incompetence in such a minor issue? It's of no consequence whether I can figure it out. Why do you think they didn't figure it out, instead of me? What do I pay them for? I was also considering buying a big chunk of GLBSE and now I'm not. These are very practical matters that one may need to figure out. You know, we don't have a mommy around and all that.

Please pay more attention to differentiating the important issues from the trolling, both of which is going on in the same thread.

I presume he means Goat's attempt to get Nefario a scammer tag and most likely private events associated with that. For example, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Goat threatened to pursue getting Nefario a scammer tag before that to try to extort a better settlement on the fake GLBSE stock from Nefario. However, it really does seem to me that Nefario failed to consider the collateral damage to GLBSE customers when he responded by delisting all of Goat's assets immediately and implementing a claim code scheme that appears to have been hastily contrived by a dim third grader.

"Nefario... someone is giving me a code that I don't find on my list... can you confirm this code is in use or not?", and if it turns out there is a discrepancy, then it is dealt with, and a revised list gets sent out with the correction, and if it turns out there isn't a discrepancy and the code isn't valid, you tell the scammer to take a hike. This isn't brain surgery.

I'm glad we have such large areas of agreement. But:

You didn't answer my key point. That scheme only works if Goat can rely on Nefario to resolve the discrepancy. That is, this works only if GLBSE accepts the liability and responsibility for managing the claim process, at least if any problems arise. From all appearances, GLBSE's position is that now that they've issued the claim codes, they have no further obligation to operate the claim process. (Indeed, that was your position, wasn't it?)

If Nefario can't be relied upon to resolve the discrepancy, or GLBSE, then that's that, isn't it?

No, my position was that GLBSE no longer has any obligation to manage people's shares. Confirming if a claim code is valid, is a reasonable thing to expect GLBSE to do, should a discrepancy come up, but anything beyond that, I don't see any further obligation here.

I can't say zero reasons. When a client/customer initiates actions for the sole purpose of causing harm to your business, you have every right to refuse service from that point on, or, in the case of a contract between the two, if it isn't a condition in the separation clause, the business can simply not renew the contract when it expires. No notice is required.

You can't get rid of them on GLBSE, but there is nothing stopping you from arranging a private sale, and doing it through the asset issuer so the issuer can update his records.

I'll grant you, that you've lost the convenience of an automated exchange to do all of this accounting for the asset issuer, but that is something the issuer will have to work out for himself, if he doesn't want to do the accounting.

Certainly it could have been handled better, there is little dispute about that, but that isn't the same as saying that it is unworkable and|or can't be done. GLBSE wasn't the supplier, just the facilitator. Maybe a broker would be willing to chase around the issues he is managing for you as the customer, but GLBSE wasn't necessarily a broker, just an exchange, that handled the accounting for the assets. Plenty of room for argument on that point however, I'll agree.

Personally, I think people choosing to sell the claim codes themselves, would be foolish to do so. Their only purpose is for the asset issuer to match holders to the shares they own off of the issuer's list. At that point, if the holder wishes to sell his shares to someone else, person to person, both parties will have to do it through the asset issuer himself, as he is handling the accounting for it now.

We can plenty argue over who initiated what, but it has little relevance to the situation we have now. That ship has sailed.

The way I see it, you're going to keep having two camps. One camp who believes that the exchange has to put up with all the BS that is being fanned by the owners of the companies listed on their exchange, even if that BS is detrimental to the exchange itself, and you'll have the other camp who believes that no company has a right to be listed on the exchange, and the exchange can't be forced to keep a company listed, or be forced to continue trading, or handling, any transactions involved with the now-delisted company.

I'm in the latter camp.

Basing it solely on the public information I have seen posted, Goat was in the wrong, and created this situation himself. I can't blame Nefario one bit for evicting him off of the exchange at the point that he did. I probably would have done the same thing more or less.

One change I may have done, was to just halt trading of all of the assets, with a notice of why they were halted, to prepare for delisting it, and accept no more trading at all at that point. Then take a little more time compiling the list of share owners together, to send to Goat.

It wouldn't change the outcome of course, but it would have just dragged it out a little longer. Sometimes it is just best to make a clean quick break and be done with it.

However it is still unclear what will happen to the assets in my account.

I have also been looking into some of the legal stuff and I don't know if I can accept "codes" or assets from people who I know are Americans.

Nefario used to work for Intersango but got fired when he froze my account the first time.

I don't know if there is much more I can do until Nefario deals with this and explains his actions.

I have also been looking into some of the legal stuff and I don't know if I can accept "codes" or assets from people who I know are Americans. I might even have to check IDs and address. I let GLBSE act as the broker and the exchange before so now that they want me to make more actions than I agreed to I will have to check and see if it is in fact legal and what is the legal way to do it.

This has become a mess and I agree it is the asset holders who will be hurt most.   

Anyway if anyone know more about Americans dealing with securities directly with other Americans please let me know. Thanks.

I am open to helpful ideas. Honestly IMO the best solution would be just to relist on GLBSE and go on as if nothing happened. Anything outside of that will be tricky and will require cooperation and communication from Nefario. He has at this time not responded to my request to have the BTC returned or explained why I was delisted.

This was sent to GLBSE support.

"I'm not preventing you from repaying me the bitcoins of mine that you hold. Just send them to XXXXXXXXXXXX. Now you have no excuse not to repay me amounts that aren't in dispute. But I refuse to release you from any obligations or liability. Holding the Bitcoins you agree you owe me hostage to obtain concessions on a legitimate dispute is scamming."

When I get the funds I will make a note of it. However it is still unclear what will happen to the assets in my account.

This was sent to GLBSE support.

"I'm not preventing you from repaying me the bitcoins of mine that you hold. Just send them to XXXXXXXXXXXX. Now you have no excuse not to repay me amounts that aren't in dispute. But I refuse to release you from any obligations or liability. Holding the Bitcoins you agree you owe me hostage to obtain concessions on a legitimate dispute is scamming."

When I get the funds I will make a note of it. However it is still unclear what will happen to the assets in my account.

See, now this is exactly the kind of thing that has been going on that is making it so damned hard for me to see Goat as credible through this.

He is claiming that he wasn't preventing the return of his BTC, and finally supplies a BTC address (unless he actually sent XXXXXXXXXXXX)... claiming that they were being held hostage, when without an address to send them to, Nefario had no choice but to hold onto them. Saying they were being held hostage implies that Nefario actually had a choice to still have them. Without a withdrawl address (until now), what other choice did he have with them? So, who was the one actually holding them hostage, Nefario without an address to send them to, or Goat, who up until now, refused to supply a withdrawl address in the first place?

Goat, you may actually have a valid argument somewhere in everything you're spouting, but you're constantly exaggerating and escalating, burying whatever argument you're trying to put forth. It is making you less than credible.

-- Smoov

Nefario's silence on this issue basically supports the case that this was personally motivated.   He has logged in multiple times and I am quite sure he is aware of the numerous people that have asked for his official statement on this situation. 








Caveat Emptor

He is claiming that he wasn't preventing the return of his BTC, and finally supplies a BTC address (unless he actually sent XXXXXXXXXXXX)... claiming that they were being held hostage, when without an address to send them to, Nefario had no choice but to hold onto them. Saying they were being held hostage implies that Nefario actually had a choice to still have them. Without a withdrawl address (until now), what other choice did he have with them? So, who was the one actually holding them hostage, Nefario without an address to send them to, or Goat, who up until now, refused to supply a withdrawl address in the first place?

Do all the issuers who someone kicked off the platform owned shares of get given these codes, so they can track for themselves those of their shareholders who are unable to use GLBSE anymore?

For example if I had an offering on GLBSE of which Goat bought some, would I too have been put in this position of being offered codes, and have to hope Goat got in touch with me with the his code to "redeem" his shares I issued that suddenly are not handled by GLBSE?

-MarkM-

So many questions... so little Nefario.

Nefario! Come out of your cave!

There's interesting discussion to be had!

Sep 20 01:33:16 <nefario>   what can I say, mircea has more time to piss away on IRC than me, let him have this domain
Sep 20 01:33:41 <smickles>   o, more popcorn fodder?
Sep 20 01:33:53 <mircea_popescu>   the only reason i'm not routing you off the forum is cause the forum isn't worth the effort.
Sep 20 01:34:04 <mircea_popescu>   if idiots like mathew wright can dick around there so can idiots like you.
Sep 20 01:34:30 <midnightmagic>   Who's kakobrekla >?
Sep 20 01:34:39 <kakobrekla>   me
Sep 20 01:34:55 <nefario>   lol
Sep 20 01:34:56 <midnightmagic>   Yes, but do you operate something? You are listed as channel founder: what was the purpose of this channel meant to be?
Sep 20 01:34:56 <nefario>   you're no one
Sep 20 01:35:07 <nefario>   he runs assbot I think
Sep 20 01:35:14 <mircea_popescu>   kakobrekla lol i admire you not booting the idiot at this point. i would have.
Sep 20 01:35:26 <mircea_popescu>   nefario he owns the chanel. and you're 15.
Sep 20 01:35:52 <nefario>   with mild alopecia
Sep 20 01:36:05 *   ChanServ gives channel operator status to kakobrekla
Sep 20 01:36:08 <kakobrekla>   what is the issue here
Sep 20 01:36:19 <smickles>   :o
Sep 20 01:36:22 <nefario>   with alopecia?
Sep 20 01:36:37 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [PAJKA.BOND] 4 @ 0.081 = 0.324 BTC [-]
Sep 20 01:36:39 <nefario>   no, just saying if I'm 15 then I've got a hair problem
Sep 20 01:37:01 <copumpkin>   o.O
Sep 20 01:37:20 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [PAJKA.BOND] 1 @ 0.0815 BTC

Sep 20 01:37:30 <assbot>   [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 5580 @ 0.000264 = 1.4731 BTC [-]
Sep 20 01:37:32 <assbot>   [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 620 @ 0.00026371 = 0.1635 BTC [-]
Sep 20 01:37:33 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6150 @ 0.00040681 = 2.5019 BTC [-]
Sep 20 01:37:34 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14650 @ 0.00040555 = 5.9413 BTC [-]
Sep 20 01:38:18 <smickles>   tits
Sep 20 01:38:22 <kakobrekla>   this is a free for all
Sep 20 01:38:30 <kakobrekla>   you can insult eachother as you please
Sep 20 01:38:36 <kakobrekla>   if you cant take it, leave
Sep 20 01:38:44 <kakobrekla>   im not going to ban anyone at this point
Sep 20 01:38:47 <kakobrekla>   thanks.
Sep 20 01:39:07 *   kakobrekla removes channel operator status from kakobrekla
Sep 20 01:39:09 <mircea_popescu>   admirable.
Sep 20 01:39:41 *   smickles stands outside of kakobrekla's window and imitates the whitest kids you know racewar skit
Sep 20 01:40:15 <smickles>   come on man, race war. let's go!
Sep 20 01:40:22 <BTC-Mining>   and Kako is right, in my opinion.
Sep 20 01:40:25 <kakobrekla>   usagi, extensive spaming for example
Sep 20 01:40:36 <kakobrekla>   repeating the same line over and over again
Sep 20 01:40:37 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [YABMC] 1 @ 0.077 BTC [-]
Sep 20 01:40:39 <kakobrekla>   exactly the same.
Sep 20 01:40:42 <kakobrekla>   that would get you banned.
Sep 20 01:40:51 <nefario>   *** PENIS PILLS **** WWW>PENIPILLS>COM
Sep 20 01:41:09 <mircea_popescu>   i told you he's 15.
Sep 20 01:41:22 <kakobrekla>   better to let everyone shine in their true light
Sep 20 01:41:30 <kakobrekla>   if i ban someone, we will be short of that info
Sep 20 01:42:12 <mircea_popescu>   jesus he's so close to my own philosophy i could try.
Sep 20 01:42:15 <mircea_popescu>   i could cry*
Sep 20 01:42:28 *   Bugpowder (cef100f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.241.0.249) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Sep 20 01:42:57 <kakobrekla>   i would ban highlevelminer for example :)
Sep 20 01:43:59 <kakobrekla>   hm
Sep 20 01:44:00 <kakobrekla>   accually
Sep 20 01:44:08 <kakobrekla>   i had a wicked idea a few days ago
Sep 20 01:44:11 <kakobrekla>   if you want it
Sep 20 01:44:15 <kakobrekla>   i will implement it
Sep 20 01:44:52 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [FDBF] 13 @ 0.14500003 = 1.885 BTC

Sep 20 01:44:53 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [FDBF] 7 @ 0.14500002 = 1.015 BTC [-]
Sep 20 01:44:57 <kakobrekla>   each person can cast a vote for other people to be kicked out of this room, if there is n votes in m, person gets a o minute ban
Sep 20 01:45:07 <kakobrekla>   in m minutes*
Sep 20 01:45:18 <midnightmagic>   kakobrekla: I am not appealing to you to act: I am curious to know the boundaries. I know them now. Thanks for clarifying. Heh heh..
Sep 20 01:45:57 <kakobrekla>   like a self moderation thingy.
Sep 20 01:46:06 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [ASICMINER] 25 @ 0.1099 = 2.7475 BTC [-]
Sep 20 01:46:08 <mircea_popescu>   that is a really stupid.
Sep 20 01:46:12 <mircea_popescu>   ideea.
Sep 20 01:46:22 <kakobrekla>   you feel you would fly out quickly eh
Sep 20 01:46:53 <Bugpowder>   What if you had to pay 1BTC per vote, to be distributed to the remaining people in the room?
Sep 20 01:46:58 <kakobrekla>   lol
Sep 20 01:47:19 <mircea_popescu>   kakobrekla think of it this way : i have enough money to hire people to come post here to kick you out.
Sep 20 01:47:23 *   FabianB_ (~ogg@p4FE86AAB.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Sep 20 01:47:53 <mircea_popescu>   in general the value comes from the outliers not from the center. this is why we have silicon valley : to support innovation, not conformity.
Sep 20 01:48:10 <kakobrekla>   fine
Sep 20 01:48:12 <mircea_popescu>   so as an ideea it runs contrary to the very principle of pretty much everything, from bitcoin to freenode all the way to foss.
Sep 20 01:48:13 <kakobrekla>   you asked for moderation
Sep 20 01:48:16 <kakobrekla>   i gave you an option
Sep 20 01:48:18 <kakobrekla>   refused.
Sep 20 01:48:24 <kakobrekla>   we are done with this topic now, for good.
Sep 20 01:48:29 *   FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
Sep 20 01:48:34 <smickles>   democracy = mob rule
Sep 20 01:48:47 <kakobrekla>   pull your guns back out
Sep 20 01:48:49 <nefario>   anarchy=...anarchy
Sep 20 01:49:19 <mircea_popescu>   nefario anarchy is that system where some guy that's been running the market where scams gather for years doesn't get to play the respectable.
Sep 20 01:49:21 *   Enky (~IceChat77@ip-55-133.sn2.eutelia.it) has left #bitcoin-assets
Sep 20 01:49:25 <mircea_popescu>   yes, you're nto a whore yourself. you're the matron.
Sep 20 01:49:49 <BTC-Mining>   smickles: indeed, no mob rule
Sep 20 01:50:16 <BTC-Mining>   Enlightened absolutism all the way
Sep 20 01:50:50 <smickles>   we just need an appeal to god, that's all
Sep 20 01:51:00 <mircea_popescu>   for to give us
Sep 20 01:51:02 <mircea_popescu>   watermelons!
Sep 20 01:51:27 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [UDN] 3 @ 0.03498999 = 0.105 BTC [-]
Sep 20 01:52:23 <BTC-Mining>   Hmm... I'd be all for watermelons
Sep 20 01:52:24 <smickles>   wait,
Sep 20 01:52:41 <smickles>   the movie version of the emperor caligulaQ!!!
Sep 20 01:56:05 <smickles>   ;;bc,24hprc
Sep 20 01:56:07 <gribble>   12.37
Sep 20 01:56:39 <dub>   kakobrekla: they had that in #bitcoin a year ago, it got gamed
Sep 20 01:56:50 <dub>   longer than that maybe
Sep 20 01:56:54 <kakobrekla>   aha
Sep 20 01:56:58 <kakobrekla>   i was not aware of that
Sep 20 01:57:03 <dub>   it was neat
Sep 20 01:57:35 <dub>   if people said 'thanks dub' you got karma points, eventually you got voice, then you could !+b loser and if enough voices agreed they got banned
Sep 20 01:57:53 <kakobrekla>   o cute
Sep 20 01:59:05 <smickles>   people
Sep 20 01:59:42 <nefario>   Smoovious: or 100% are self serving
Sep 20 01:59:48 <nefario>   but not a mix
Sep 20 02:00:07 <nefario>   not exactly
Sep 20 02:01:40 *   Bugpowder has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
Sep 20 02:02:56 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [UDN] 3 @ 0.03498999 = 0.105 BTC [-]
Sep 20 02:03:03 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36400 @ 0.00041085 = 14.9549 BTC

Sep 20 02:04:27 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [GSDPT] 1 @ 0.0034 BTC

Sep 20 02:07:06 *   jurov is now known as jurov|away
Sep 20 02:07:10 *   PhantomSpark|2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
Sep 20 02:07:46 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [FUTUREFUND] 1 @ 0.00012936 BTC

Sep 20 02:08:22 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [FUTUREFUND] 1 @ 0.00012936 BTC

Sep 20 02:11:14 <kakobrekla>   nefario >> Alberto was also involved in another case of fraud, http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/ensos-zenpad-is-vaporware-get-refunds-while-they-last/
Sep 20 02:11:15 <kakobrekla>   lol
Sep 20 02:11:20 <kakobrekla>   this was known for what, half a year?
Sep 20 02:11:54 <kakobrekla>   twas in the the first failed bdt thread
Sep 20 02:11:55 <kakobrekla>   oh well
Sep 20 02:12:28 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [YARR] 1 @ 1.001 BTC

Sep 20 02:12:48 <nefario>   fuck this talk like a pirate day
Sep 20 02:12:58 <nefario>   cant understand any of the fucking links in reddit
Sep 20 02:13:20 <copumpkin>   avast!
Sep 20 02:13:40 <kakobrekla>   again with the pirate.
Sep 20 02:13:48 <copumpkin>   arr
Sep 20 02:13:51 <copumpkin>   aye
Sep 20 02:14:10 <kakobrekla>   is that dude still present on irc anyway
Sep 20 02:14:34 <nefario>   holler be savin 'stow pillage nsfw
Sep 20 02:14:47 <smickles>   ;;ident pirateat40
Sep 20 02:14:47 <gribble>   Nick 'pirateat40', with hostmask 'pirateat40!~pirateat4@unaffiliated/pirateat40', is not identified.
Sep 20 02:14:56 <smickles>   not right now anyway
Sep 20 02:14:59 *   Shaded (~Shaded@unaffiliated/shaded) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Sep 20 02:15:24 <dub>   yes he is, in #btcst
Sep 20 02:16:03 <assbot>   [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 12200 @ 0.00027584 = 3.3652 BTC

Sep 20 02:16:05 <kuzetsa>   /who pirateat40
Sep 20 02:16:10 <kuzetsa>   /ns info pirateat40
Sep 20 02:16:15 <kuzetsa>   /ison pirateat40
Sep 20 02:16:17 <kuzetsa>   oh
Sep 20 02:16:30 <kuzetsa>   /me gives the keyboard a funny lool
Sep 20 02:16:33 <kuzetsa>   *look
Sep 20 02:16:55 <dub>   irc is hard
Sep 20 02:17:28 <kuzetsa>   my keyboard has buttons which, when pressed in a certain way make the IRC thing not do normal-like
Sep 20 02:17:29 <smickles>   i thought pirate usually idented when he hopped on
Sep 20 02:18:06 <dub>   not lately
Sep 20 02:18:16 <kuzetsa>   yeah :/
Sep 20 02:18:30 <kuzetsa>   probably too many "leave a message using gribble" hatemails
Sep 20 02:18:58 <kakobrekla>   ;;hate later
Sep 20 02:18:58 <gribble>   Error: "hate" is not a valid command.
Sep 20 02:19:06 <mircea_popescu>   ;;later hate
Sep 20 02:19:07 <gribble>   Error: The "Later" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "hate" in it.  Try "list Later" to see the commands in the "Later" plugin.
Sep 20 02:19:15 <mircea_popescu>   gribs is an innocent.
Sep 20 02:19:16 <kakobrekla>   ah
Sep 20 02:19:25 <smickles>   ;;ident mircea_popescu
Sep 20 02:19:26 <gribble>   Nick 'mircea_popescu', with hostmask 'mircea_popescu!~Mircea@trilema/mircea-popescu', is not identified.
Sep 20 02:19:30 <smickles>   :o
Sep 20 02:19:35 <kakobrekla>   scammer
Sep 20 02:19:35 <mircea_popescu>   want me to ident ?
Sep 20 02:19:46 <smickles>   ;;ident
Sep 20 02:19:46 <gribble>   You are identified as user smickles, with GPG key id EA62D7CEB2450C3F, key fingerprint 96ACCA7C3B09EC61B0A6D7F9EA62D7CEB2450C3F, and bitcoin address 12NjnZTVeTJ3g5C7BqfS2aQ2rLkmwiqVz6
Sep 20 02:19:52 <smickles>   mwahaha
Sep 20 02:20:06 <mircea_popescu>   ;;echo No, YOU are identified as user smickles
Sep 20 02:20:07 <gribble>   No, YOU are identified as user smickles
Sep 20 02:20:11 <smickles>   ;;ident kakobrekla
Sep 20 02:20:12 <gribble>   Nick 'kakobrekla', with hostmask 'kakobrekla!~T42@89-212-41-49.static.t-2.net', is not identified.
Sep 20 02:20:24 <kakobrekla>   ;;ident
Sep 20 02:20:24 <gribble>   You are not identified.
Sep 20 02:20:27 <smickles>   scamed by the chanop
Sep 20 02:20:29 <kakobrekla>   pft
Sep 20 02:20:30 <kakobrekla>   ;;ident
Sep 20 02:20:31 <gribble>   You are not identified.
Sep 20 02:20:32 <kakobrekla>   ;;ident
Sep 20 02:20:33 <gribble>   You are identified as user kakobrekla, with GPG key id 27AF75321F2489E8, key fingerprint 27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8, and bitcoin address None
Sep 20 02:20:40 <mircea_popescu>   uh ?!
Sep 20 02:22:19 <kuzetsa>   ;;echo I like cheese
Sep 20 02:22:19 <gribble>   I like cheese
Sep 20 02:22:23 <smickles>   i keep reading the channel mode as +cunt
Sep 20 02:22:24 *   Doffx has quit (Quit: Leaving)
Sep 20 02:22:42 <mircea_popescu>   want sum ? get sum!
Sep 20 02:22:45 <smickles>   .py print ';;ident'
Sep 20 02:22:47 <markac>   ;;ident
Sep 20 02:22:47 <gribble>   You are not identified.
Sep 20 02:22:48 <dub>   ;;later tell kuzetsa not when its in your vagina
Sep 20 02:22:49 <gribble>   The operation succeeded.
Sep 20 02:23:21 <kuzetsa>   the hell
Sep 20 02:23:29 <kuzetsa>   please don't talk about my anatomy
Sep 20 02:23:31 <nefario>   lol
Sep 20 02:23:47 <nefario>   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110709.0;topicseen
Sep 20 02:23:49 <dub>   sif you have a vagoo
Sep 20 02:24:12 <dub>   that looks shooped
Sep 20 02:24:24 <dub>   I can tell because of pixels and nefario is a scammer
Sep 20 02:25:16 <mircea_popescu>   ahaha smickles haxx
Sep 20 02:26:03 <smickles>   mircea_popescu: one day, markac will ident as me
Sep 20 02:26:18 <copumpkin>   ;;ud markac
Sep 20 02:26:19 <gribble>   http://www.urbandictionary.com/products.php?term=Markac&defid=5962291 | ... with your own definition! by pseudonym129874. Definition: A slang term for anal masturbation. Example: That cucumber is perfect for some Markac action ...
Sep 20 02:26:35 <mircea_popescu>   nowai ?!
Sep 20 02:26:51 <mircea_popescu>   im sure vrag uses eggplants anyway.
Sep 20 02:28:04 <smickles>   i just need to wait till markac goes offline, and renick and ,,ident
Sep 20 02:28:36 *   Lucidize has quit (Quit: ...off to see the Wizard)
Sep 20 02:28:38 <dub>   good to see chief bitcoin scammer theymos is weighing in on nefarios crime
Sep 20 02:28:57 *   gabbynot (~Rob@108-81-203-35.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Sep 20 02:29:29 <dub>   cabal wagons circling
Sep 20 02:30:14 *   Shaded has quit (Quit: Shaded)
Sep 20 02:30:22 <mircea_popescu>   eh ?!
Sep 20 02:30:39 <mircea_popescu>   smickles you know it hasn't been offline in weeks ? maybe months.
Sep 20 02:31:07 <dub>   <theymos> good job on violatign this individuals rights nefario, let me get you a fresh gerbil
Sep 20 02:31:27 <smickles>   dub: where is that?
Sep 20 02:31:49 <dub>   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=93445.msg1205280#msg1205280
Sep 20 02:32:28 <nefario>   eh the post doesn't say that
Sep 20 02:34:48 <kakobrekla>   >Alberto agreed to this information being published, in the event of him scamming or running with the money, on sending it to me, I wouldn't post it otherwise.
Sep 20 02:34:52 <kakobrekla>   just for a piece of mind
Sep 20 02:35:00 <kakobrekla>   can we see that document signed or something
Sep 20 02:35:08 <mircea_popescu>   peace.
Sep 20 02:35:14 <kakobrekla>   ya
Sep 20 02:35:15 <kakobrekla>   peace
Sep 20 02:35:17 <kakobrekla>   or where
Sep 20 02:35:21 <kakobrekla>   dd he agree to
Sep 20 02:35:24 <kakobrekla>   did*
Sep 20 02:35:26 <smickles>   kakobrekla: with me, it was a conversation, not a document
Sep 20 02:35:45 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [YABMC] 3 @ 0.077 = 0.231 BTC [-]
Sep 20 02:35:48 <dub>   the peace would reside in some piece of mind presumably
Sep 20 02:35:51 <kakobrekla>   you are nef pr now
Sep 20 02:36:03 <smickles>   me?
Sep 20 02:36:10 <kakobrekla>   yes
Sep 20 02:36:24 <smickles>   free btc for EVERYONE~
Sep 20 02:36:32 <nefario>   lol
Sep 20 02:36:41 <kakobrekla>   meh
Sep 20 02:36:51 <kakobrekla>   you guys are hopeless
Sep 20 02:36:54 <mircea_popescu>   this was confusing
Sep 20 02:37:15 <dub>   its not really, you guys are just late to the party
Sep 20 02:37:21 <kakobrekla>   i still didnt get my answer
Sep 20 02:37:30 <kakobrekla>   nefario is just loling
Sep 20 02:37:31 <dub>   the answer is nefario is not to be trusted
Sep 20 02:37:40 <smickles>   sorry kakobrekla, i just meant to say, that nef has my personal details, and there was no document signed about the terms of public release
Sep 20 02:37:52 <kakobrekla>   ahh
Sep 20 02:37:52 <dub>   he appears to be part of a UK based conspiracy to defraud the entire bitcoin community
Sep 20 02:38:00 <kakobrekla>   sorry smickles
Sep 20 02:38:10 <kakobrekla>   thought you were answering as him
Sep 20 02:38:11 <nefario>   dub: just HOW thick IS your tinfoil hat
Sep 20 02:38:25 <nefario>   smickles I spoke with on the phone
Sep 20 02:38:30 <nefario>   asked him on there
Sep 20 02:38:41 <nefario>   Alberto was over email
Sep 20 02:38:48 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [JTME] 4 @ 0.74897879 = 2.9959 BTC

Sep 20 02:38:49 <kakobrekla>   well nefario, just for your protection, it would help you to have a doc signed about releasing that sort of info
Sep 20 02:38:49 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [JTME] 9 @ 0.7489788 = 6.7408 BTC

Sep 20 02:38:50 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [JTME] 2 @ 0.74999 = 1.5 BTC

Sep 20 02:38:51 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [JTME] 4 @ 0.755 = 3.02 BTC

Sep 20 02:38:53 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [JTME] 2 @ 0.77 = 1.54 BTC

Sep 20 02:38:56 <kakobrekla>   can save you some trouble you know
Sep 20 02:39:10 <nefario>   yeah I figure as much
Sep 20 02:39:11 <smickles>   nefario: that's what i'm saying, it was a conversation
Sep 20 02:39:22 <nefario>   yeah
Sep 20 02:39:43 <nefario>   like I said I don't just go throwing peoples info about willy nilly
Sep 20 02:40:01 <BTC-Mining>   nefario, get a lawyer to make a valid form to sign regarding this, and send it my way.
Sep 20 02:40:02 <kakobrekla>   noone argues alby is innocent
Sep 20 02:40:16 <mircea_popescu>   well, no-one except himself, i guess.
Sep 20 02:40:20 <nefario>   BTC-Mining: sure
Sep 20 02:40:49 <mircea_popescu>   but to be honest, that entire thing smells bad. it seems more as an attempt for jro/kludge and possibly meni to extract themselves smelling rosy
Sep 20 02:40:55 <mircea_popescu>   than anything.
Sep 20 02:40:56 <nefario>   we'll have to include this in the TOS for asset issuers
Sep 20 02:41:22 <nefario>   kluge is rosy
Sep 20 02:41:30 <nefario>   the guy is paying with his own money
Sep 20 02:41:41 <mircea_popescu>   maybe.
Sep 20 02:41:55 <kakobrekla>   no moonlanding malaimo
Sep 20 02:41:55 <nefario>   he is
Sep 20 02:41:56 <kakobrekla>   eh
Sep 20 02:41:59 <kakobrekla>   mircea_popescu
Sep 20 02:42:12 <nefario>   lasers
Sep 20 02:42:15 <mircea_popescu>   hm ?
Sep 20 02:43:02 <nefario>   you can use lasers to verify there are man made objects on the moon
Sep 20 02:43:03 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2524 @ 0.00041187 = 1.0396 BTC

Sep 20 02:43:04 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17276 @ 0.00041296 = 7.1343 BTC

Sep 20 02:43:14 <kakobrekla>   shhh nefario
Sep 20 02:43:24 <nefario>   oh sorry
Sep 20 02:43:43 <nefario>   Eh THEREWERE NOLANDINGSONZEMOOON
Sep 20 02:44:37 <mircea_popescu>   mkay.
Sep 20 02:46:28 *   Audriux9 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
Sep 20 02:47:06 <smickles>   can't you also get time at a nice telescope and see the footprints?
Sep 20 02:47:51 <mircea_popescu>   at any rate it doesn't cunt till someone has sex on the moon.
Sep 20 02:47:55 <smickles>   iirc, that one on that clif in s. california does it from time to time
Sep 20 02:47:58 <nefario>   how do you know it's not a photo on the other end of the lens?
Sep 20 02:48:35 <smickles>   nef have a friendlook at the lense when you look thru it, maybe
Sep 20 02:48:47 <nefario>   how can you trust the fiend?
Sep 20 02:48:53 <nefario>   what if it's like the truman show
Sep 20 02:48:58 <nefario>   and they're in on the whole thing
Sep 20 02:49:08 <nefario>   how do you know you are YOU?
Sep 20 02:49:19 <nefario>   etc.
Sep 20 02:49:34 <nefario>   I've got so much tinfoil on my head right now
Sep 20 02:49:41 <smickles>   nefario: well answer me this: have you verified that the earth is a sphereoid?
Sep 20 02:49:42 <nefario>   I can't even go near a microwave or mobile phone
Sep 20 02:49:52 <smickles>   i have
Sep 20 02:49:56 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [OBSI.HRPT] 2 @ 0.10274999 = 0.2055 BTC [-]
Sep 20 02:50:01 <smickles>   it was a fun project
Sep 20 02:50:12 <mircea_popescu>   it's a pity nefario doesn't have much time to waste on irc.

Do you at least agree that now there is no excuse for Nefario/GLBSE not returning to Goat amounts that are not in dispute?

I never made the claim that there was any excuse for not returning the coin, or that there even was a dispute, save for the claim that Goat hadn't sent an address to send them to.

Nefario did post a message on the forums at one point, that that was all he needed.

It is, by the way, entirely possible that Goat and Nefario simply came back from the discussions at the beginning with different impressions. Goat may genuinely have believed Nefario expected concessions for him to get the undisputed coins back and Nefario believing he had simply asked Goat to direct him how to repay him. Everything I've seen after that is consistent with this, and we do know that communications broke down at least to some extent.

It is, by the way, entirely possible that Goat and Nefario simply came back from the discussions at the beginning with different impressions. Goat may genuinely have believed Nefario expected concessions for him to get the undisputed coins back and Nefario genuinely believed he had simply asked Goat to direct him how to repay him. Everything I've seen after that is consistent with this, and we do know that communications broke down at least to some extent.

The way it looks to me, Goat gets the blame because he seems to be doing the most to incite a riot rather than actually work the problem. At least, in public, anyways.

If Goat is unable to get GLBSE/Nefario to work with him in private, what else should he do? I am not saying that Goat's conduct has been a shining example of reason and patience, far from it. However, GLBSE's complete abandonment of its obligation to protect its customers' interest is, frankly, stunning to me. From where I'm sitting, it doesn't look like Nefario/GLBSE has lifted a finger to help those who held Goat's assets, their customers. This is a much bigger deal. (Although, it's entirely possible that GLBSE is trying hard to work with Goat in private and Goat is stonewalling. I don't know. I'm just trying to provide a fairer balance.)

GLBSE's position seem to be that as soon as they delist a stock, which they can do at any time for any reason, they have no obligation whatsoever to the holders of that stock. That despite the fact that they're the only entity that can communicate with them and there is no known way to redeem the assets without their cooperation. There also seem to be no controls on who can order a delisting and who decides how customers' interest will be protected. There is no evidence GLBSE/Nefario thought for even a second about the collateral damage a delisting would cause, and it appears that nobody did. This is completely unacceptable and goes way beyond the present issue with Goat.

It seems like the lack of transparency / publicity on this issue is just going to exacerbate the communication problems.

Does GLBSE have a forum of its own or a blog? Is bitcointalk really the only announcement vehicle?

They can barely maintain an exchange site as it is.  You expect a forum as well?

GLBSE's obligation is to supply the 'company' a complete list of who has what shares, and since GLBSE was anonymous to begin with, claim ID's were used to avoid giving out account information that the users had been accustomed to be kept private.

The share-holders have enough information to link themselves up with the shares on the list, and can do so at any time.

In my opinion, users who are expecting GLBSE to continue handling their shares, including but not limited to, assisting them in getting them sold off so they can cash out, are expecting more than they have a right to expect from GLBSE at this point, since those shares are no longer listed on GLBSE.

My opinion on this isn't going to change, so lets retire that topic, ok?

I thought we had already agreed that this was insufficient. Specifically:

1) It doesn't allow the issuer to contact the owners. This makes a two phase redeem impossible. There is no way other than a two phase redeem to avoid having to honor a claim code twice.

2) It gives the issuer no way to handle earnest claims that don't match the list of codes.

Didn't you agree that this was insufficient? What happens if an asset owner sends a claim code and the issuer says that claim code wasn't on the list? They claim the issuer is scamming. The issuer claims the code wasn't on the list. How can that possibly be resolved if GLBSE doesn't assist?

It seems it has just changed and you are back to the position I thought I had argued you out of.

If it doesn't match the list, it isn't a valid claim. Simple.
...
Is GLBSE obligated to do more than it has, and continue to facilitate getting shares sold off or traded, or handle any of the delisted company's accounting? No, I don't believe it is.

The last message he sent out on this as far as I could tell was him advising people to report me to the police. I wonder if GLBSE will assist with that as they are the only ones with "evidence" (maybe now deleted?).

I believe your position is blatantly unreasonable and I would be shocked if GLBSE took this position. This leaves GLBSE's customers with no recourse whatsoever if Goat says, "Sorry, that code wasn't on the list I got from GLBSE." I cannot believe GLBSE would construe their agreement with their customers as allowing them to do that. But if it surfaces that they share your position, I will begin recommending to everyone who will listen that they refuse to do business with GLBSE since GLBSE seems to be shirking their primary obligation -- to secure their customers' ownership interest in the assets they purchase. I would consider GLBSE taking this position reneging on their agreement with their customers.

Please post a copy of this agreement that you keep referring to?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112551.msg1224851#msg1224851


I guess he says "group legal action" in the GLBSE support e-mail but he said police to others. Still more or less the same thing. He expects his customers to either report me to the police or sue me. There is no way they could do that with out the help of GLBSE who claims they are no longer involved.

I have had about 10 people contact me about the issue. I am not started collecting data from them as I do not think this system is workable in it's current form. However these 10 people are about 1% of the total if the data from GLBSE can be trusted.

I also at this time do not have a response from Nefario or the BTC returned. It will be interesting to see if he will return the coin now that he knows I will not accept his terms or let him flee from his responsibility. It will also be intersting to understand why he did this in the first place.

The last message he sent out on this as far as I could tell was him advising people to report me to the police. I wonder if GLBSE will assist with that as they are the only ones with "evidence" (maybe now deleted?).

Thanks.

In my opinion, GLBSE has no such obligation to manage your assets for a listing that is no longer on the exchange.

If you can explain to me how asking Nefario to have a communication channel will solve this issue I will do it. However at this time that seems to only be one of the many issue we have to deal with.

If Nefario gave the same defense as you did, GLBSE would lose half its customers in a month.

I have had about 10 people contact me about the issue. I am not started collecting data from them as I do not think this system is workable in it's current form. However these 10 people are about 1% of the total if the data from GLBSE can be trusted.

That month was September.

He wants to leave it to them to choose to reveal it to Goat or not or maybe even whether to employ a cut-out to represent them who will like GLBSE not reveal their contact info to Goat.

Maybe Tormail with Tor would work as a cutout if sentient cutouts are, as they could well be, untrustworthy?

Honestly I am wondering if I can / should collect that data :/

All TYGRR assets have been moved off GLBSE (delisted)

I'm quite sure that most registered securities (at least, and at least in the US) require, for example, the company to keep a list of registered shareholders, and their contact information, so that they can be paid dividends, and be sent info/invites to shareholders' meetings. I can't say what a bond issuer might be required to do.

However, the claimcode is a terribly conceived plan......has the look of Patrick Strateman all over it. Yeah....that one went well...let's try it with a little twist this time, eh? No thanks. I'm not taking my chances with any more assets. I have a couple hundred more shares of SS to unload & all I have are delisted assets. I will not be getting anymore assets delisted out from under my trading position. ugh. let the next wave of scams begin.

Yeah. wouldn't surprise me that's why the GLBSE site is so fast. meh. Be curious for a blockchain forensics expert to see if they can spot a real withdrawal run.

And yeah, is it just me or has just about everything tanked on GLBSE.  I set all my asks, come back a day later and cut 'em in half, come back a day later, cut 'em again.  Still no takers.  I think how Nefario handled this just cost us all a small fortune.

Hehe.
Of course, it's all because The Goat has done nothing wrong (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82573.msg1126157#msg1126157) - right?

So now you have chosen to cover up your ass, instead of getting paid for being his lying bitch? :)
Sounds like quite some desperation... But I am afraid it won't help you much - you will still end up in jail so better start buying some lubricants...
A pretty boy like you, with such a big experience of being a bitch - it will be a great gift for your new mates :)

Aug 31 05:50:14 <mircea_popescu>   dude, it's just funnay. you've been trading with yourself to give the appearance of  volume to that turd of yours, and now you accuse me of doing it ? lol.
Aug 31 05:50:24 <mircea_popescu>   im sure it'll stick. what with you being credible and all.
Aug 31 05:50:41 <mircea_popescu>   kakobrekla im actually starting to suspect more than glbse. a bunch added this month, too.
Aug 31 05:51:38 <kakobrekla>   ballpark number?
Aug 31 05:51:39 <BTC-Mining>   mircea, stop deluding yourself... if you don't make an interface like a broker and insist on having a stock exchange backbone and only allow quality companies IPOing, you'll need brokerage platforms like GLBSE
Aug 31 05:51:53 <BTC-Mining>   Which acts like any bank's online brokerage service
Aug 31 05:51:54 <mircea_popescu>   more than 100 less than 1k.
Aug 31 05:52:26 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining i would like better run platforms tho.
Aug 31 05:52:46 <BTC-Mining>   It's a beta... it's not even supposed to be finished yet...
Aug 31 05:52:50 <mircea_popescu>   right.
Aug 31 05:52:52 <BTC-Mining>   People just started using it
Aug 31 05:53:18 <mircea_popescu>   lol. you are aware glbse was scamming investors back in june last year right ?
Aug 31 05:53:46 <Ignatius-otc>   I wasn't aware, links?
Aug 31 05:53:57 <BTC-Mining>   You should show proof indeed.
Aug 31 05:54:28 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc SIN. LIF.A LIF.B LIF.CX. SMM. DISHWARA. PBJ. UBTC. BitFlowSys. GEM. SLV. BID. USGOLD. BB. SDM.
Aug 31 05:54:31 <mircea_popescu>   forum's your friend.
Aug 31 05:54:43 <mircea_popescu>   add it all up, it comes up to more than the most recent pirate thingee.
Aug 31 05:55:08 <mircea_popescu>   this if we look the other way and pretend to not notice that giga's thing went from 1.5 to .8 in the time it took it to pay ~.2 in dividends.
Aug 31 05:55:13 <BTC-Mining>   Was any of those asset issued by Nefario?
Aug 31 05:55:44 <mircea_popescu>   o dude i dunno, there was this guy that came and stole your money in my house ?! odd dood...
Aug 31 05:56:02 <mircea_popescu>   o, you mean we were all friendly and all ? well... ya, it happens, you know... investin'.
Aug 31 05:56:05 <mircea_popescu>   in da hood.
Aug 31 05:56:15 <mircea_popescu>   free market!
Aug 31 05:56:50 <assbot>   [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 1417 @ 0.00079232 = 1.1227 BTC

Aug 31 05:56:56 <BTC-Mining>   glbse clearly state they're not regulating what's getting on the platform and to investigate the issuer yourself
Aug 31 05:57:17 <mircea_popescu>   and this clearly is a flawed business model.
Aug 31 05:57:27 <BTC-Mining>   Also Gigamining paid over 0.4BTC in dividends so far
Aug 31 05:57:43 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1200 @ 0.0003934 = 0.4721 BTC [-]
Aug 31 05:57:55 <mircea_popescu>   !pl gigamining 1.5
Aug 31 05:57:56 <assbot>   Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
Aug 31 05:57:59 <assbot>   GIGAMINING [1@1.5BTC] paid: 0.41490096 BTC. Last price: 0.82 BTC. Capital gain: -0.68 BTC. Total: -0.26509904 BTC. (-17.7%)
Aug 31 05:58:15 <mircea_popescu>   41 the man says, but you got a point there.
Aug 31 05:58:33 <mircea_popescu>   -17% in 4 months is not so bad, given the alternatives on glbse.
Aug 31 05:58:57 <BTC-Mining>   don't forget that GIGAMINING is not completly fixed, it upgrades
Aug 31 05:59:06 <mircea_popescu>   im just working on past data.
Aug 31 05:59:20 <mircea_popescu>   the future's outside the scope of this conversation.
Aug 31 06:00:38 <mircea_popescu>   .py 0.823 ** 3
Aug 31 06:00:41 <markac>   0.557441767
Aug 31 06:00:43 <assbot>   [MPEX] [F.GIGA.ETF] 7600 @ 0.00080907 = 6.1489 BTC

Aug 31 06:01:37 <mircea_popescu>   half yer money in a year, who can argue with that.
Aug 31 06:01:56 <Obsi>   !pl futurefund 0.0001
Aug 31 06:01:56 <assbot>   Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
Aug 31 06:01:59 <assbot>   FUTUREFUND [1@0.0001BTC] paid: 1.625E-5 BTC. Last price: 0.000116 BTC. Capital gain: 1.6E-5 BTC. Total: 0.00003225 BTC. (32.3%)
Aug 31 06:01:59 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39701 @ 0.0003934 = 15.6184 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:02:00 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34008 @ 0.00039526 = 13.442 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:01 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5519 @ 0.00039584 = 2.1846 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:02 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10372 @ 0.0003959 = 4.1063 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:03 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17400 @ 0.00039624 = 6.8946 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:04 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37900 @ 0.00039662 = 15.0319 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:05 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39000 @ 0.00039689 = 15.4787 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:06 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11800 @ 0.00039712 = 4.686 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:07 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27922 @ 0.0003973 = 11.0934 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:08 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6378 @ 0.00039781 = 2.5372 BTC

Aug 31 06:02:16 <Ignatius-otc>   I fail to see a direct connection showing collusion by GLBSE staff.
Aug 31 06:02:31 <kakobrekla>   when are smpoe div commin out
Aug 31 06:02:35 <Ignatius-otc>   Next time you are looking at one mp, please forward it along.
Aug 31 06:02:39 <mircea_popescu>   tomorrow about this time kakobrekla
Aug 31 06:02:46 <kakobrekla>   k
Aug 31 06:02:49 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc mkay, lets see here
Aug 31 06:02:51 <BTC-Mining>   yes, yes... and you're completly ignoring why the price is currently low and declare it as a linear loss of value
Aug 31 06:03:01 <Chaang-Noi>   !pl gigamining 1
Aug 31 06:03:02 <assbot>   Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
Aug 31 06:03:15 <Chaang-Noi>   i bought in at 1
Aug 31 06:03:37 <BTC-Mining>   Didn't gigamining IPO at 1 by the way?
Aug 31 06:03:39 <assbot>   GIGAMINING [1@1BTC] paid: 0.41490096 BTC. Last price: 0.82 BTC. Capital gain: -0.18 BTC. Total: 0.23490096 BTC. (23.5%)
Aug 31 06:03:39 *   asa has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
Aug 31 06:03:46 <Chaang-Noi>   yes i bought a huge amount at 1
Aug 31 06:03:52 <BTC-Mining>   Making it a 0.20 loss for 0.40 dividend?
Aug 31 06:04:07 <Chaang-Noi>   yeah i think i did well
Aug 31 06:04:07 <mircea_popescu>   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35775.msg699659#msg699659 you can start there Ignatius-otc
Aug 31 06:04:17 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining why is the price currently low ?
Aug 31 06:04:23 <Chaang-Noi>   i also sold some very near 1.5
Aug 31 06:04:36 *   asa (~asa@31.7.59.226) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Aug 31 06:04:48 <Ignatius-otc>   I would normally just do the work myself mp, but I have already went on a wild goose chase once today. To read about Chaang and his glbse "scandal". Wasn't worth my time and didn't prove Chaang dishonest or doing wrong.
Aug 31 06:04:51 <Ignatius-otc>   ok ty for the link
Aug 31 06:05:20 <BTC-Mining>   The price of bitcoin more than doubled since it IPOed and mining difficulty has been raising accordingly
Aug 31 06:05:23 <mircea_popescu>   Chaang-Noi is just front and center in pretty much any drama, but other than that it's not clearly proven he's dishonest.
Aug 31 06:05:26 <mircea_popescu>   just a little silly at  times.
Aug 31 06:05:43 <BTC-Mining>   Thus price lowered, however Gigamining's rig should get upgraded.
Aug 31 06:05:43 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining and we should discount this for what reason ?
Aug 31 06:05:52 <Chaang-Noi>   means a great deal coming from you mircea
Aug 31 06:05:59 <Chaang-Noi>   i would ahte for anyone to think we were friends
Aug 31 06:06:14 <mircea_popescu>   lol
Aug 31 06:06:17 <Chaang-Noi>   yeah im very happy with giga stock
Aug 31 06:08:11 <BTC-Mining>    <@assbot> GIGAMINING [1@1BTC] paid: 0.41490096 BTC. Last price: 0.82 BTC. Capital gain: -0.18 BTC. Total: 0.23490096 BTC. (23.5%)
Aug 31 06:08:25 <BTC-Mining>   0.41 paid, -0.18 capital gain, net +23.5%
Aug 31 06:08:37 <BTC-Mining>   Gigamining's price at IPO wasn't bad
Aug 31 06:08:42 <mircea_popescu>   as long as we're making scenarios, you could have bought at 1 sold at 1.5
Aug 31 06:08:44 <mircea_popescu>   some people did.
Aug 31 06:08:55 <BTC-Mining>   aye, and some people overpaid the stock
Aug 31 06:08:58 <mircea_popescu>   more's the point, on any stock chart you can make these imaginary paths where you win money no matter what happens.
Aug 31 06:09:09 <mircea_popescu>   with the benefit of knowing the future, that's grea.t
Aug 31 06:09:30 <BTC-Mining>   Indeed, you could, assuming you can foresee the future... unfortunatly you can't
Aug 31 06:10:23 <Chaang-Noi>   im glad im friends with james :)
Aug 31 06:10:30 <Chaang-Noi>   and let me in on the ipo
Aug 31 06:10:42 <mircea_popescu>   it was public on the forums wasn't it.
Aug 31 06:10:51 *   blazing (~lew@38.105.30.224) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Aug 31 06:11:01 <BTC-Mining>   hmm...
Aug 31 06:11:59 <mircea_popescu>   ;;ticker
Aug 31 06:12:00 <gribble>   Best bid: 10.78001, Best ask: 10.79, Bid-ask spread: 0.00999, Last trade: 10.78, 24 hour volume: 29529, 24 hour low: 10.6, 24 hour high: 10.907
Aug 31 06:18:16 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [BITBOND] 2 @ 0.4693 = 0.9386 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:19:50 <Ignatius-otc>   mircea_popescu: what measures are in place on mpex to prevent a lif.* like asset from defaulting in the way the thread you linked to me describes?
Aug 31 06:20:31 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [V.HRL] 1 @ 1 BTC
Aug 31 06:20:39 <Ignatius-otc>   does mpex have investment funds? if so, when they are poorly managed and lose most/all btc...how would this play out any differently if the exchange were mpex instead of glbse
Aug 31 06:20:40 <Chaang-Noi>   there is not money traded on mpex so nothing can be lost
Aug 31 06:20:42 <mircea_popescu>   i don't allow random people to list.
Aug 31 06:20:50 <mircea_popescu>   Chaang-Noi now why do you insist to lie on the matter ?
Aug 31 06:21:13 <Chaang-Noi>   not a lie, but an exageration to absurdity
Aug 31 06:21:20 <Chaang-Noi>   clearly a few btc is on your exchange
Aug 31 06:21:22 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [BFLS] 2 @ 1.09 = 2.18 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:21:24 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [BFLS] 1 @ 1.099 BTC

Aug 31 06:21:29 <mircea_popescu>   but you are aware that glbse did something like 20% of the satoshi dice volume, right ?
Aug 31 06:21:35 <Chaang-Noi>   so yes you can be scammed too
Aug 31 06:21:37 <mircea_popescu>   mostly because... it has no investors.
Aug 31 06:21:43 <mircea_popescu>   of course i can be scammed  too.
Aug 31 06:21:59 <mircea_popescu>   the difference is that i haven't been.
Aug 31 06:22:04 <Chaang-Noi>   glbse took 20% of the volume of a stock on your exchange? oh lol
Aug 31 06:22:07 <mircea_popescu>   just like any wife could be a whore. she has the equipment.
Aug 31 06:22:12 <Ignatius-otc>   is there an actual third party blockchain like way to verify any of your volume claims mp?
Aug 31 06:22:12 <mircea_popescu>   the ideea is that some are and some aren't.
Aug 31 06:22:16 <Chaang-Noi>   thats pretty funny stat
Aug 31 06:22:24 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc you could try twitter i guess ?
Aug 31 06:22:40 <Ignatius-otc>   twitter? as proof of volume? so...the same as glbse?
Aug 31 06:22:44 <Chaang-Noi>   why would 20% not wnt to use your exchange and pick glbse over it? oh wiat, never mind :)
Aug 31 06:22:54 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [NYAN.C] 1 @ 0.45 BTC

Aug 31 06:22:56 <mircea_popescu>   Chaang-Noi because they don't have 20 btc, mostly.
Aug 31 06:23:06 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc how would you construct proof of volume ?
Aug 31 06:23:08 <mircea_popescu>   in an ideal world ?
Aug 31 06:23:21 <Ignatius-otc>   trusted third party verification
Aug 31 06:23:33 <mircea_popescu>   there's not that many third parties that i trust.
Aug 31 06:23:37 <Ignatius-otc>   just generally aksing though, your statements seem like they could alle asily apply to any exchange,even yours
Aug 31 06:23:43 <assbot>   [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43000 @ 0.00039724 = 17.0813 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:23:47 <mircea_popescu>   which specifically ?
Aug 31 06:23:48 <Ignatius-otc>   apply easily*
Aug 31 06:24:05 <Ignatius-otc>   mainly the collusion thing is what got me to chime in and the fun here
Aug 31 06:24:12 <mircea_popescu>   a. well here's the thing :
Aug 31 06:24:17 <Ignatius-otc>   i still havent seen anything suggesting glbse is in collusion with defaulting assets
Aug 31 06:24:42 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [FDBF] 1 @ 0.14 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:25:19 <mircea_popescu>   you got neighbourhood A, where there never was a violent crime. you got neighbourhood B, where about half the citizens routinely get hauled off to prison on various violent charges.
Aug 31 06:25:25 <mircea_popescu>   now... where do you make your home ?
Aug 31 06:25:45 <mircea_popescu>   sure, in principle crime is crime, it can happen anywhere, innocent till proven guilty and all that.
Aug 31 06:25:49 <mircea_popescu>   but, where do you make your home ?
Aug 31 06:25:56 <Ignatius-otc>   that wasn't my concern
Aug 31 06:26:03 <mircea_popescu>   well that was the extent of my argument.
Aug 31 06:26:13 <Ignatius-otc>   my concern is when you alluded multiple times that glbse staff are/were involved in scams
Aug 31 06:26:19 <mircea_popescu>   shit happens too many times it's either incompetence or collusion.
Aug 31 06:26:27 <BTC-Mining>   This isn't about making your home tho, it's about making money
Aug 31 06:26:49 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining no, the making money part has been longresolved. anyone with any capital and any sense goes wherwe the volume is.
Aug 31 06:26:57 <mircea_popescu>   we're on to discussing the irrational part, of homemaking.
Aug 31 06:27:03 <BTC-Mining>   and although GLBSE had many scam/default, when chosen correctly, the assets pay a lot more.
Aug 31 06:27:03 <mircea_popescu>   that being the last argument left, really.
Aug 31 06:27:17 <mircea_popescu>   BTC-Mining do you know which is the highest yield asset on glbse ?
Aug 31 06:27:29 <BTC-Mining>   So people only go where the volume is eh? Guess we should all strictly invest in government bonds then
Aug 31 06:27:41 <BTC-Mining>   The highest were pirate's passthrough
Aug 31 06:27:44 <mircea_popescu>   nope
Aug 31 06:27:46 <mircea_popescu>   try again ?
Aug 31 06:28:08 <BTC-Mining>   hmm... OBSI.HRPT currently
Aug 31 06:28:11 <mircea_popescu>   mnope
Aug 31 06:28:17 <mircea_popescu>   want a third or are you bored ?
Aug 31 06:28:27 <BTC-Mining>   Bored
Aug 31 06:28:28 *   TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
Aug 31 06:28:33 *   [7] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) has joined #bitcoin-assets
Aug 31 06:28:34 <mircea_popescu>   !pl mpoe.etf 0.1
Aug 31 06:28:34 <assbot>   Requesting data from GLBSE (might take a while).
Aug 31 06:28:52 <mircea_popescu>   gee they take this beta thing seriously.
Aug 31 06:28:52 <assbot>   MPOE.ETF [1@0.1BTC] paid: 0.0104835 BTC. Last price: 1.3 BTC. Capital gain: 1.2 BTC. Total: 1.2104835 BTC. (1210.5%)
Aug 31 06:29:11 <assbot>   [GLBSE] [DMC] 1 @ 0.0622 BTC [-]
Aug 31 06:29:23 <Ignatius-otc>   To be clear I personally am not arguing that any glbse asset is a sound investment, I just want to make sure the exchange itself is reputable.
Aug 31 06:29:32 <mircea_popescu>   Ignatius-otc how would you do that ?
Aug 31 06:29:59 <Ignatius-otc>   similar to feedback systems all voer the internet is how I personally went about it
Aug 31 06:30:04 <mircea_popescu>   i regard it as disreputable. i might just be biased. some people regard it as reputable. course they don't tend to disclose their ownership interest in it.
Aug 31 06:30:07 <mircea_popescu>   what can you do ?
Aug 31 06:30:24 <Ignatius-otc>   and in doing so, found absolutely no evidence glbse is up to no good, same for chaang, yet I watch you sit here and bash the fk out of these things pretty frequently...

Note: I'm posting logs lately mostly to illustrate for the benefit of forum-hobbled minds that yes, in fact irc is where it's at.

Which channel is this from?

Well I got an e-mail back from Nefario about my asking for the undisputed coin. He claims he did not understand the e-mail and wants a new e-mail to be sent...

He is just playing games. :/

I think that gives us our answer. Your message was about as clear as it can be. If all he needed was an address to make payment, he now has it.

Nefario: If Goat didn't actually send that message, or didn't include a valid address, or you did pay him back and he's lying, or you didn't send the email Goat claims, or anything like that, *please* speak up. Because now it's really looking like your holding undisputed funds to obtain leverage in a legitimate dispute. Because we're only hearing one side of this story, and it is making you look very bad.

Nefario hasnt been on the forum for 3 days so its hard to say if he is even responding to emails either.

Well I got an e-mail back from Nefario about my asking for the undisputed coin. He claims he did not understand the e-mail and wants a new e-mail to be sent...

He is just playing games. :/

Not cool.

He has 24 hours to send you the funds, otherwise things will get interesting.

I think we need to make these things more like a prize fight. Where someone wins, and the other person loses. For example Goat and Nefario would get into a thread where no one but themselves could post. They would then go back and forth until one gives up or one wins by predetermined rules set by the moderators. The winner wins, and the loser is banished! That or something else cool. We could do execution rules, but those would be sort of hard to enforce. I don't know, just throwing an idea out there.

Well Maged demanded that I send him and Theymos the e-mails I sent to Nefario or be banned in 48 hours for lying.

That's awesome.  ::)

Yeah, imagine that.  Theymos owns what?  21% of GLBSE?  No conflict of interest there.

I only asked that it be sent to theymos as a reference. Theymos is not in charge of this investigation. Additionally, I did not ask for the previous communications. I only asked that a NEW email be sent to Nefario that included the address that would be CC'd to us. I needed proof that Goat wasn't just lying about having sent the address, since Nefario told me that the address he was sent wasn't validating.

After reading his message again Maged did not ask for the old e-mails. He only asked for the bitcoin address. (That was my mistake but still.. I think I proved my point that I did not lie and that I was acting in good faith...


This was the part of the message from Maged that made me think I should send the old e-mails.

"Failure to do so will result in you being marked as a scammer and possibly even banned for the following reasons:
1) Publicly lying about having sent Nefario a Bitcoin address. This will be considered libel and ALL posts, made by anybody, referencing this specific lie will be DELETED to protect the forum from legal action."

but in fairness he did only ask for an address.

Thanks.

Why not just post the address on the forums?  Anyway, this is all kind of ridiculous.  Couldn't Maged just ask Nefario if he got the emails with the bitcoin address?

I think he did and that is why Maged came down on me so hard

This email is a service from GLBSE. Delivered by Zendesk.

I only asked that it be sent to theymos as a reference. Theymos is not in charge of this investigation. Additionally, I did not ask for the previous communications. I only asked that a NEW email be sent to Nefario that included the address that would be CC'd to us. I needed proof that Goat wasn't just lying about having sent the address, since Nefario told me that the address he was sent wasn't validating.

There is no way I can do this with out GLBSE or a new stock exchange. There is no way for me to see the value of the bids. How can I give anyone a fair price?

Nefario more or less made all of the assets worthless and not trade able. What is the market price for some of the bonds? No way to know...

The claim system is good enough. If someone gives you a claim code you don't have, tell them to bring it up with Nefario. If more than one person claims a code, just give it to the first person. It's not your responsibility to figure it out. If there is a problem with how the claim system was done, it is Nefario's responsibility to reimburse anyone that has a problem that a better system would have solved. Period. If he didn't want this liability on his hands, he would have just done it right in the first place.

The claim system is good enough. If someone gives you a claim code you don't have, tell them to bring it up with Nefario.

If more than one person claims a code, just give it to the first person. It's not your responsibility to figure it out.

If there is a problem with how the claim system was done, it is Nefario's responsibility to reimburse anyone that has a problem that a better system would have solved. Period. If he didn't want this liability on his hands, he would have just done it right in the first place.

The ONLY thing you need to check is that the amount of claim codes match the number of shares issued.

I would like to point out that Nefario has not sent me any BTC despite 3 e-mails over several days with the BTC address.

Making the code public is only asking for others to try to use it...  Even if i were to find a way to accept the codes it does not solve all of the problems. Crossing a code off the list does not make the code turn back into an asset.

One more point though. It should be clear that GLBSE still has obligations to the owners of those shares, as Maged stated.

This code system is so fundamentally broken and so at odds with everything we know about security that it looks like it was thought up in two minutes by a below-average third grader. And, in any event, for Nefario to impose it on Goat and his asset holders without even trying to reach an agreement on a scheme that's at least not so obviously broken is an inexcusable breach of GLBSE's obligation to protect its customers' ownership interests in their assets.

GLBSE is not the largest bitcoin stock exchange.

It worries me a lot that someone running the largest Bitcoin stock exchange



GLBSE is not the largest bitcoin stock exchange.

This thread has clearly shown me that I shouldn't trust:

GLBSE
Nefario
Bitcointalk.org staff
Maged in particular (but I didn't trust Maged already)

IMHO what I think Goat should do is try the code redemption process. Ask for all the shareholders to report to him first. If all of the shares get accounted for and there's no double coding, then he should settle that. If there are actual attempts at double code usage, then process nothing and take it from there. At least according to my understanding of the process it should work if everyone acts properly, and it can fail if anyone acts in bad faith. The process isn't perfect but it could work. At least giving it a try first instead of claiming that it *could* go wrong seems the better route. Then if something goes wrong the problem clearly would belong to nefario.

This is a horrible idea.

Actually, this sort of "doing without knowing what" is exactly how Nefario drove GLBSE into the wall.

This is a horrible idea.

Actually, this sort of "doing without knowing what" is exactly how Nefario drove GLBSE into the wall.

It depends on how you measure it. What would you call the biggest stock exchange? I think GLBSE has the largest number of assets listed.

A few weeks ago Smickles@Co were worried because the main Bitcoin address of that exchange received only 4000BTC.

But we have to (tell other people to) do something!!!!!!!!!!!!!-e^πi!!!!

You know Mircea we're all waiting for you to waive that 20BTC fee. Why won't you let us give you our coins???  :P

~pyotr

You could use a broker site like coinbr or a broker-person like Brendio, smickles, buncha others, you know this?

IMHO what I think Goat should do is try the code redemption process. Ask for all the shareholders to report to him first.

If all of the shares get accounted for and there's no double coding, then he should settle that. If there are actual attempts at double code usage, then process nothing and take it from there.

At least according to my understanding of the process it should work if everyone acts properly, and it can fail if anyone acts in bad faith. The process isn't perfect but it could work. At least giving it a try first instead of claiming that it *could* go wrong seems the better route. Then if something goes wrong the problem clearly would belong to nefario.

I did not know that, as a matter of fact. It's hard to get information about MPex other than you are a "pornographer" - not really relevant.

What is this coinbr site? Is it operational?

How do you value an asset that can no longer be exchanged?

By audit.

You take an audit of the 'company' involved to determine its value. Then, divide that value by the # of shares, and that is how you value a share for a private company.

Its not rocket science...

Then, the people who hold those shares can, and do, make private trades here and there, sometimes above value, sometimes below value, depending on what they agree to between themselves. All they would need to do is inform the CEO/CFO that the shares have exchanged hands and have new owners.

-- Smoov

So you see the problem.

You shouldn't trust anyone.  However, you should distrust this list.  Put a "scammer" tag on in your head, or inject custom CSS with their posts.

This is a clusterfuck from all angles.  Goat screwed up to a certain degree, and his attitude¹ encouraged all of the above into believing that a) he was wrong and b) he would be easily pushed into some sort of settlement that was not in his best interest.

Nefario is inept and incompetent.  He is in way over his head and if GLBSE continues to do business, it will merely continue its trend to being the Silk Road of BTC "security exchanges"² or blow up completely.  It should not continue to exist.

The staff should not be dictating policy of BTC businesses.  This ticket system is moronic.  How do you value an asset that can no longer be exchanged?

As I read it, and I am ready to be corrected, Nefario and the forum staff have colluded to put goat out of business.


1. Yes, he is a prick.  But if we don't defend pricks, then, well, you run the risk of monster pricks being really, really big pricks.
2. Quotes for irony.

Unless all the decent mining operations setup their own separate site to manage shareholders that is a bad idea and would lead to even worse outcomes.  

I did not know that, as a matter of fact. It's hard to get information about MPex other than you are a "pornographer" - not really relevant.

What is this coinbr site? Is it operational?

MPEX is not immune to  the current market collapse either.

http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/mpex.php?mpsic=B.MPCD.A (http://polimedia.us/bitcoin/mpex.php?mpsic=B.MPCD.A)

The current market is MPEx. The current GLBSE collapse is relevant strictly to GLBSE and possibly to this forum.

You are a hypocrit. After all your jumping up and down abpout ponzi schemes and your character assassination of usagi you let an asset list that is both a ponzi and a usagi asset.

You are a hypocrit. After all your jumping up and down abpout ponzi schemes and your character assassination of usagi you let an asset list that is both a ponzi and a usagi asset.

What exactly am I missing here ?

While I am not generally in the practice of defending the herpes-covered reprobate that is Mircea Ceaușescu, I would prefer a hypocrite to a moron.  Besides, what does this have to do with GLBSE being a house of cards under management by an epileptic dwarf?

Because they are using these threads to advertise their own exchange. You dont see the cryptostocks guy here mentioning cryptostocks at every opportunity do you ?

Unfortunately glbse shareholders are held hostage as much as anyone else in this situation.

What we should really be worried about is that there isn't even a hint of GLBSE PR. Mircea can go around and say that his exchange is the best. Whether or not MPex is the best is irrelevant because there's no competition.

Is GLBSE going to be here next month? Next year?

At the very least, Mircea (or at least the MPOEPR account) doesn't give me the impression that they will go into hiding at first sign of trouble...

I don't understand. How would copies of new communications tell you if Goat was lying about having sent the address? I can understand why Goat thought you wanted copies of previous communications -- how could copies of future communications tell you if he was lying or not?

There is a dispute over whether Goat sent Nefario an address or not. If you're investigating that dispute, you would naturally want copies of past emails. If you aren't investigating that incident, why would a ban threat for lying come up?

I'm very, very confused now.

Unless there's some strange technical problem, either Nefario or Goat is lying about having sent an address. Goat says he did. Nefario says he didn't. Are you investigating this past dispute to see who was lying?

What we should really be worried about is that there isn't even a hint of GLBSE PR. Mircea can go around and say that his exchange is the best. Whether or not MPex is the best is irrelevant because there's no competition.

Is GLBSE going to be here next month? Next year?

At the very least, Mircea (or at least the MPOEPR account) doesn't give me the impression that they will go into hiding at first sign of trouble...

Maybe they should hire someone to lie that everything is rosy while the site goes down the toilet. Would that make you feel better ?

Dude, you have some very serious issues.

How does he *prove* he got a double code usage? If he does this, someone can just submit a code twice using an accomplice and then accuse Goat of scamming.

Ok, one last thing. If you don't want a scammer tag, you need to agree to do/implement one of the following:

1) Publicly agree to accept ALL liability for double-spent codes and codes that Goat may not have, but were issued anyway.
2) Recall all of the codes and reissue some kind of private keys, giving the public key list (with their corresponding claim codes from before) to Goat. Personally, I suggest using Bitcoin private keys:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112551.msg1240911#msg1240911
3) Come to an agreement with Goat to relist his assets.

You have one week to announce one of these options or similar, and one month to implement it. If you need more time than that, let me know along with the reason why.

Message sent to Nefario:

I would consider this (that does not mean i agree to it). However the asset/code holders would have to consent to being moved over and Nefario would still have to remain liable for code transfer issues and problems.

Nefario would clearly have to trust the new exchange.

1) The problem with this solution is that accepting liability may not mean he actually makes good on that liability. Goat would actually have to pay out funds relying on Nefario to make good on his acceptance of liability. It's not clear that this acceptance would be binding on the asset holders either, so if Nefario reneges, Goat could still be left with liability. So Goat can only redeem based on this acceptance of liability if he believes Nefario will make good on it. (And how would this even work? Someone goes to Goat with a code, Goat sends them to Nefario saying the code is not on his list. Nefario says "that's a made up code that I never issued". They now go back to Goat and complain that Nefario lied and they were in fact issued that code. Does Nefario have to make good on this? If not, how does Goat know Nefario didn't steal the asset? If so, an unlimited number of people can scam Nefario and he'd have no choice but to renege on his acceptance.)

2) The problem with this solution is that that's just another unilateral imposition of a broken redemption scheme on Goat, just a slightly less broken one. It still causes substantially the same problems. Two people can still come to Goat with possession of the same private key. Goat still has to decide whether to redeem twice or once. If twice, he's still getting massive liability crammed down his throat that he never agreed to accept. If once, then he's still taking the risk of being branded a scammer if Nefario issues the same code to two people, and he'll never even know whether it was Nefario or the claimant is lying. (Consider the same scenario as in 1 above.)

So two of your proposed solutions can't work.

I don't think anyone has any business trying to coerce either side into accepting specific solutions and there's no sense in pressuring one side to agree to a solution the other side won't agree to -- how does that help? If they can't *agree* on a solution, we need to evaluate whether that's because either of them is scamming. (Unless Goat agreed to 1 and 2 above, in which case, he's a fool, but congrats on brilliant mediating. But if he didn't, what good is getting Nefario to agree to things Goat will, and should, never agree to?)

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was just a bad decision on your part.

But several people have already told me privately that they believe you are conspiring with Nefario to appear to pressure him into an agreement that we all know Goat won't accept to shift the blame to Goat. I hope that's not true and that this was just an honest lapse in judgment.

This may be a dumb idea, but why not have nefario provide goat with a list of BTC addresses linked as a deposit address to the user's GLBSE account and a share count.

Then there's no liability for goat - as if they lose control of their GLBSE account then they're in exactly the same position as if they'd lost control of it BEFORE goat was delisted (the unauthorised user can sell shares/withdraw BTC).  All liability after goat sends the funds then rests with GLBSE -as it would have done had he been paying by their dividend mechanism.  And the block-chain allows verification of whether funds were actually sent.

I have already been told I can not accept plan 1 and 2 by my lawyer/adviser. Only plan 3 will be legally acceptable.

GLBSE and forum staff trying to forcing me to take a scammers tag because I refuse to do something illegal will backfire.

I know GLBSE and the staff here want people to think this is my fault. The best thing they can do is explain why I was delisted and why my fees have not been refunded. Because right now it looks like extortion and theft.

I have already been threatened with a ban unless I did something Maged demanded in 48 hours... highly illegal...

Option 4)  Goat chooses a new exchange.  Nefario works with that exchange to replicate the shares and accounts necessary for Goat to continue operating his assets.

Occurred to me, as I keep getting PM's asking us to setup a BTC version of litecoinglobal.com.  I think all I'd really need is email addresses and share counts.

On the surface, it's a good idea. However, it has the following problems:
1) Deposits may not have all come from a non-shared wallet. This opens the potential for MtGox, etc., to fraudulently claim shares as their own. This is besides the fact that some people will NEVER be able to claim their shares. The same goes for withdrawal addresses.
2) This breaks the privacy that users expected that they had with GLBSE.
3) Nefario could just make up the list. You know, since apparently he can't be trusted to do anything right.

These exact issues also exist with email addresses, except replace 1 with "Users may not have signed up with a secure email address, since it wasn't ever supposed to single-handedly protect the account." Same with any other personal information GLBSE has.

Ask yourself, what does it take to liquidate all of a person's assets and empty their account at GLBSE? The answer is access to their account. Thus, access to someone's account should be all the protects this transfer of assets.

I'm just shocked that Maged thinks GLBSE is illegal and is so involved in enforcement for them. I personally do not think GLBSE is illegal and that is why I am willing to work with GLBSE. The FSA is not the SEC.

England is not the USA.

So you are demanding that I do something you think is illegal or I get the scammers tag  :/    Thank you for making your position clear.

I trusted GLBSE to take care of the regulation issues as they are the broker and the exchange, they told me it was not a problem and I trusted them. Now you are asking me to become an exchange and it seems I can not do that in the USA or sell to Americans. Maybe I should not have trusted GLBSE but a year ago they seemed on the level and my understanding of the law was not as great as it is now.

If you think GLBSE is illegal, and you claim they are, how can any of the contracts be valid in the first place? Why are you trying to support an organization you find to be illegal?

You are acting as enforcement for this operation you think is criminal, and you doing so means that you are committing a crime yourself.

Your position on obey us or leave is not really neutral or fair... I guess I should think about leaving if that is the way it is...

I'm just shocked that Maged thinks GLBSE is illegal and is so involved in enforcement for them. I personally do not think GLBSE is illegal and that is why I am willing to work with GLBSE. The FSA is not the SEC.

England is not the USA.

I wasn't clear enough what I meant.

I didn't mean nefario gives goat the addresses the user deposited to GLBSE with (which is how it appears you read it).

What I meant was that nefario generates a new GLBSE-owned deposit address for each user - linked to their user-account (so BTC sent to that address arrive in their GLBSE account).  Then gives goat THAT list.

your point 1) is then not relevant.
point 2) also isn't relevant - as the user never provided the address, nor is there any way for someone to link it to their GLBSE account.
point 3) is also a non-issue - GLBSE has no responsibility for how many funds are sent to that address or why those funds are sent (that's down to goat to sort out with his users himself).  Nefario explicitly CAN make up the list - but GLBSE takes on responsibility to provide users with the funds associated with THEIR deposit address (just like they do for deposits to any other deposit address).  So there'd be no benefit in nefario giving goat a list of addresses (and each user the ID of their own goat-related address) that was fake - as he'd then be accepting responsibility for delivering funds that he'd not got control over.

What it doesn't do is give goat any way of identifying individual investors - or investors a way of proving that they're the person receiving funds on the address.  Which would basically limit goat to only being able to pay dividends or do a buy-back.  But he already has the codes which allow that - so long as he's not dumb enough to send funds other than to the BTC address provided by nefario, he could also then buy back shares from individual users (a scammer with the code could only trick goat into buying back the share by sending BTC to the true owner).  Transfers to third-parties (which would take the shares away from GLBSE totally) could be achieved by goat buying the share from the original owner (confirming code then paying to the nefario-provided GLBSE account) then selling it to the third-party.  Provided the amount transferred in both transactions is the market value then the worst a scammer (who somehow got the code) can do is BUY a share from goat at market rate - a share which isn't registered on GLBSE and which goat could just take away from them if he decided they were scamming.  Not much of a reward really.

I thought bitcoin was play money.  My wife calls 'em "magic beans".

Is it illegal to swap magic beans internationally?

And if I make an online game that uses magic beans, where you're running a business that deals in magic beans, is it illegal to play my game internationally?

We'll call it "Mr. Magic Beans - Sims Business Edition".

(is mmbex.com taken?  mr magic beans exchange?)

It sounds like a fun game to play.

As part of the Services, HSX provides users with the ability to participate in the Hollywood Stock Exchange, a virtual game which allows users ("Participants") to buy and sell fictitious novelty interests in certain entertainment related properties (e.g., actors, actresses, movies, etc.). The interests in the particular properties and the Hollywood Stock Exchange in general are in no way related to the actual properties themselves and such fictitious interests are not, and should not be considered to be, stocks, bonds, or any other form of equity or debt security of HSX or any other person or entity. Accordingly, HSX has not, and is not obligated to, register such interests under any state or federal securities laws. The Hollywood Stock Exchange is intended for entertainment purposes only and any actual betting, wagering or gambling based on the information provided on the Web site or through the Hollywood Stock Exchange is strictly prohibited. Participants understand and agree that all interests are based on virtual "Hollywood" dollars, also known as "H$," which are entirely fictitious and have no actual corresponding dollar amount. Certain contests conducted on the Web site may offer prizes that only apply to H$ and not real currency -- you must read all Official Rules for such contests carefully. Any accumulation of H$ relates solely to a Participant's HSX account and participants are not entitled to receive any real currency, unless otherwise determined by HSX, in its sole discretion.

Well on your site you do call it a game or something. You make it clear they are not real assets and it is only for entertainment.

That is my point, if I move them to a game site I will get called a scammer :/

The grey area comes because bitcoin isnt classified as a currency anywhere.

Yep. But then that defeats the entire purpose.

Hah!  See.  Magic beans.


All of those games have rules.  If you don't play by the rules, you get kicked out of the game.  Nothing has ever been in place legally to suggest that GLBSE has any more bite than that.  Nor bitcointalk, nor anyone else.  Pirate made off with millions.  He got kicked out of the game.  That's it.

I know my game will be more successful than Nefario's game, because my game is designed better.  My game is faster, more responsive, and easier to use.  Players in my game can take their data out of the game and play the game elsewhere.  I value the players in my game and will be fair with them.

So in order legalize our exchanges we all rebrand them to games with terms like HSX has (such as mentioned earlier in the thread)?

are entirely fictitious and have no actual corresponding dollar amount.

So in order legalize our exchanges we all rebrand them to games with terms like HSX has (such as mentioned earlier in the thread)?

is this true of bitcoin ?

Not sure.  I am certain though that no matter how much they claim that, it is not true in their game.  Nor Blizzard's games, nor Sony's, etc... Head on over to Ebay if you need proof.

Branding it as a game won't solve the issue.  If money is changing hands it always runs afoul of AML & PATRIOT act type laws, game or no game.  We gotta keep them thar terrists in their place and if it means we get to give every citizen of the world a financial rectal exam all the better!

Anyone who thinks they are able to skirt the law in this regard, simply by attempting to reclassify their business as a "game" is sorely mistaken and will end up being spanked by the law at some point. 

Point of fact, a contract requires 3 things; offer, acceptance and consideration.  Consideration is usually money, but can literally be anything.  Courts tend to treat non-money consideration in terms of it's monetary value in a fair and open market.  Thus if you're swapping bonds for BTCs, the open market value of those bonds is the market value of the BTCs.  Trading them requires the exact same (if not more), limitations and verifications as trading against those bonds in local fiat.

I promise you a judge will look at bitcoin and BTC denominated transactions, the exact same way as ANY foreign currency contract.

Your best bet is to incorporate in some foreign country with lax securities laws (idontgiveadamastan), and then set your self up as a proper exchange in THAT country.  Not every country requires compliance with US laws and US law can't really touch you in those countries, they're just damned glad to see some money moving through their country.

banking4bankers.com has some good resources to point you in the right direction.  My current fav if you're a USAian is to start looking at Belize for this sort of thing.

I bet if someone comes up with an option where Nefario isn't an ongoing accomplice for drug trafficking/money laundering/whatever pirate was doing and securities fraud he would be interested.

2) The problem with this solution is that that's just another unilateral imposition of a broken redemption scheme on Goat, just a slightly less broken one. It still causes substantially the same problems. Two people can still come to Goat with possession of the same private key. Goat still has to decide whether to redeem twice or once. If twice, he's still getting massive liability crammed down his throat that he never agreed to accept. If once, then he's still taking the risk of being branded a scammer if Nefario issues the same code to two people, and he'll never even know whether it was Nefario or the claimant is lying. (Consider the same scenario as in 1 above.)