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Author Topic: Could Monero replace Bitcoin soon?  (Read 33730 times)
swisstar
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September 27, 2016, 08:53:18 AM
 #401

just a question :


what's depend if an altcoin take value ?


thank you
dinofelis
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September 27, 2016, 09:30:40 AM
 #402


I will give a longer reply later

Save it  Wink I think I might just understand controls in financial systems better than you do and you've written a small novel's worth of posts by now, all of them attempting to justify why they're not needed.

Pour yourself a beer instead.


I wonder whether I have bad writing skills, or whether you have bad reading skills.   But at no point I have asserted that controls in financial systems are not needed.  In the fiat banking system, the balance check is severely needed (and not even trustworthy).  In other systems, other checks are needed.

The specific test you are complaining about is not possible by a third party in monero is a test that makes sense for bank accounts, not for crypto, in the same way that that check is not needed for cash or gold.  That should be sufficient indication that your specific demanded checking is not universally necessary, but only adapted to a system of bank accounts which crypto is not nor gold or cash.

With gold, the checking is only on the chemical veracity of the gold.  Not about account editing.  With cash, similar: the checking is the veracity of the genuine bank note.

With crypto, the checking is on the validity of the transaction.  There too, different ways are possible.

But your "account balance checking" is not appropriate to crypto, nor on bitcoin, nor on monero.  Because it doesn't check anything.  If you erroneously accept a false transaction, your balance check will not notice (it will work always).  And if your balance check doesn't work on a crypto, it only means that the calculation of the balances on the basis of the block chain was done erroneously, but doesn't affect other people's (correct) ways of establishing balances if they need to do so.  

In other words, "account balance checking" on crypto doesn't verify what needs to be verified, namely the validity of a transaction on the block chain.  It does indicate, however, that you have a local bug in the way you calculate balances from the block chain.  But that's it.
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September 27, 2016, 09:49:40 AM
 #403

i am sure all of the currency came after the existence of bitcoin dream about becoming the next big thing and the developers and the initial fund raisers wanted to be rich very fast and so is the reason many scam coins came into existence,Monero is a good coin which is focused on privacy but no coin could take over Bitcoin as the king atleast for a couple of years
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September 27, 2016, 01:44:13 PM
 #404

Monero replace Bitcoin? I almost see every altcoin has that dream, but bitcoin is still and always the king. Monero will get zero chance to replace it, not to say "soon", lmao.
thats nonsense, you are right, monero will never have a possibility to replace bitcoins in the future

When will this joke stop, the gulf between Bitcoin and other Altcoins is huge and will take years and a serious features and development from the monero developers to achieve this feat of replacing Bitcoin.
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September 27, 2016, 02:15:09 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2016, 02:25:40 PM by toknormal
 #405


"account balance checking" is not appropriate to crypto..."account balance checking" on crypto doesn't verify what needs to be verified

Yes - I realise the balance is nothing but a dynamically generated "report" of all the unspent outputs (or valid transactions) for that address. But thats what makes it a good control.

Although it's not a test of the veracity of any given transaction, it's one measure of blockchain "state", being an aggregation of multiple substates. A valid transaction should therefore result in a movement in that "state variable" corresponding to the size of the transfer. The maintaining of and auditing of such values is just standard practice for all transaction oriented systems and something is just second nature to anyone with a background in them.

Think of it this way. You have a locker in a train station and an errand boy who collects donuts from people and puts them in the locker. We define some kind of failsafe "receipt" that the errand boy returns to you when your donut is deposited so you know your delivery definitely arrived.

The total number of donuts in the locker is a "state variable" of the system that can be calculated from the total number of valid transaction receipts held amongst all the disparate senders. That "state variable" is meaningful and adds to the perceived integrity of the system. In some ways it's like a digest hash that gets used to test if a document has changed since it was created. It also serves as a human-readable "control" on individual transactions because you can detect both blockchain errors and reporting errors by checking that the aggregate and granular interpretations agree.

The difference between Bitcoin and obscured blockchains is that bitcoin makes these blockchain aggregations auditable by all - not on condition of whether you happen to have a private key to a particular address. That gives it lots of advantages in terms of confidence, robustness, usability and perceived integrity because granular actions (individual transfers) can be controlled by aggregate observations in a way that they cannot be on an obscured chain.



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September 27, 2016, 02:29:13 PM
 #406

HuhHuh?
Where the h*ll of your source comming from? did you really understand what you are saying ? For me Bitcoin is the main father of this alt coin and it will never be replace bitcoin never ever maybe those alt coin there are chance that it could take there places but not the bitcoin.

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swisstar
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September 27, 2016, 02:56:23 PM
 #407

HuhHuh?
Where the h*ll of your source comming from? did you really understand what you are saying ? For me Bitcoin is the main father of this alt coin and it will never be replace bitcoin never ever maybe those alt coin there are chance that it could take there places but not the bitcoin.

it's like mcdonalds , they open first , then the rest follow but the father is mcdonad !!!
dinofelis
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September 27, 2016, 03:38:16 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2016, 04:00:26 PM by dinofelis
 #408

Although it's not a test of the veracity of any given transaction, it's one measure of blockchain "state", being an aggregation of multiple substates. A valid transaction should therefore result in a movement in that "state variable" corresponding to the size of the transfer. The maintaining of and auditing of such values is just standard practice for all transaction oriented systems and something is just second nature to anyone with a background in them.

Yes.  However, there is no such thing as the "block chain state" SEPARATE from the "list of valid transactions".  The imaginary block chain state is a derived quantity from that list of transactions.

Quote
Think of it this way. You have a locker in a train station and an errand boy who collects donuts from people and puts them in the locker. We define some kind of failsafe "receipt" that the errand boy returns to you when your donut is deposited so you know your delivery definitely arrived.

The total number of donuts in the locker is a "state variable" of the system that can be calculated from the total number of valid transaction receipts held amongst all the disparate senders. That "state variable" is meaningful and adds to the perceived integrity of the system.

This is an excellent example to illustrate your mistake.

In the donut system you propose, there are indeed, TWO INDEPENDENT elements: there are the failsafe emissions of receipts, and there are the true donuts in the locker.  As such, one could test the validity of the receipts, or the validity of the locker, by comparing the sum of receipts, with the counting of actual donuts in the locker.  That would be a true double check.

But this is NOT what we have in bitcoin, nor any other crypto.  There is no locker.  We can DERIVE an *imaginary* locker by counting the failsafe receipts.   Now, if we are going to compare this DERIVED quantity with, eh, the number of receipts, then OF COURSE we will find agreement.  But that is not a check ; or at most, it is a check on our way of counting receipts.  

Now, as with bitcoin, or with monero, there is only the block chain containing the "receipts", then there's no point in wanting to "see the locker" that is simply the sum of receipts, to test against, well, the sum of receipts.

This is what you are complaining about that this can be done by everybody in bitcoin, and only by persons holding the secret key in monero.  But as you see, there's no point in doing so: it doesn't help anything.

Because nor in bitcoin, nor in monero, there is a donut locker.  There is no independent bitcoin state, as there is no independent monero state.  There's only a list of valid transactions, from which one can derive such a hypothetical state.  But to use that state to verify the validity of the transactions, is of course ridiculous.  So whether you can derive that state for everybody or not, doesn't add any "security".

Quote
In some ways it's like a digest hash that gets used to test if a document has changed since it was created. It also serves as a human-readable "control" on individual transactions because you can detect both blockchain errors and reporting errors by checking that the aggregate and granular interpretations agree.

Again, that is a good example.  With a digest hash, you have the sender that calculates the hash, and sends you the document and the hash.  On the receiving side, you redo the calculation of the hash, and if it doesn't fit, then or the document was altered, or the hash was altered, or the sender made a mistake.  But you have TWO INDEPENDENT information sources: the document, and the hash.

However, the bitcoin/monero equivalent here, is that you only have the document.  You can calculate a hash from it.  And now you can take that document again, and re-calculate that hash.  You check the first calculation of the hash against the second one.  If it fits, you tell that there is more confidence in the document.  It will always come out of course, unless you made a mistake in calculating a hash.  That is about the equivalence of wanting to test balances from a list of transactions: the test tells you whether the balances are obtained from a list of transactions.  Of course they are: that's how you obtained them in the first place.

You don't have two independent sources of information.  You DERIVE two identical quantities (donut count, document hash....) from the one and single piece of data you have in any case: the single source of information which is the list of transactions.  If you check these, the only thing that that proves, is that you did your calculations in a correct way, NOT that your list has an integrity.

Quote
The difference between Bitcoin and obscured blockchains is that bitcoin makes these blockchain aggregations auditable by all - not on condition of whether you happen to have a private key to a particular address. That gives it lots of advantages in terms of confidence, robustness, usability and perceived integrity because granular actions (individual transfers) can be controlled by aggregate observations in a way that they cannot be on an obscured chain.

The point is that those "audits" are mathematically always satisfied, unless you make a mistake in your "audit", because you are NOT confronting two independent sources of information.  Now, an "audit' that always comes out as correct, is not an audit of anything, except of your capacity to do the correct calculations, nothing more.

Look at it this way:

you have a transaction in bitcoin that is {B is diminished by 2, A is augmented by 2}

Well, whatever is the state of bitcoin before that transaction, the state afterwards will be in agreement with your requirements if this transaction is correctly applied in that state calculation.  But that doesn't give you ANY extra check or information.

If in monero you have a transaction that is {one of B, X, or Y is diminished by 2, and A is augmented by 2}, then you cannot calculate the state afterwards, or you can only calculate 3 possible states afterwards ; but they are ALL correct.  The checking of any of these 3 possible states will give you satisfaction on your test.  And again, it doesn't check anything that you didn't know already.

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September 27, 2016, 04:19:29 PM
 #409

I am implying that two parties should be able to use the same criteria to test the presence or absence of a balance at a given address, regardless of whether they hold a private key to that address or not.

Why the heck should it matter whether they use the same criteria or different criteria to arrive at the same result? Its the result that matters not the means of arriving at it, unless that means is prohibitively expensive or difficult, neither of which apply to monero. It is easier to audit transactions on bitcoin. Sure. But you cant examine a benefit in a cost free vaccuum. Not if you want to arrive at useful conclusions.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
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September 27, 2016, 06:50:10 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2016, 07:47:58 PM by toknormal
 #410


there's no point in wanting to "see the locker"

LoL. Remember you said that the next time you check your wallet balance  Wink

Why the heck should it matter whether they use the same criteria or different criteria

It matters because (in an unbacked monetary system) there needs to be consensus between the participating parties that  the blockchain state was altered and the nature of that alteration. For there to be consensus, that state change needs to be reported consistently to all concerned. Doesn't matter if it's "balances" or transaction ID's or what. We all need to be looking at exactly the same information and have access to the same data, even though altering it may be a privileged action.

The idea that such a trivially simple but commonly performed act of summing all the transaction outputs for a given random address should be limited to only 1 individual in the entire world who happens to have a private key to that address is ludicrous. It's a perfectly legitimate control test amongst hundreds that may be applied in order to construct aggregated state variables with which to observe changes (such as balances). Not only that, the amount of work and programming involved in actually hiding this information is phenomenal because you're basically having to UNDO (conceptually at least) all the work that has already been done by the public-private key encryption that makes "the wonder" of a transparent blockchain possible in the first place. Look at what Cryptonote projects are doing. While everyone else is getting on with tooling up commercial interfaces, Android wallets, iPhone wallets, API's commercial gateways and diverse gateways, Cryptonote has it all to do on the blockchain protocol. And for what ? To make a blockchain thats less transparent, less auditable, more open to confidence scams and far higher maintenance than bitcoin ?

I know why it has that priority - as I've said previously it has to maintain allegiance to its banking system archetype. But it's the wrong archetype for an unbacked monetary system that relies on public consensus for very existence.

If I send 50 transactions to an address I should be able to sum the outputs to that address to obtain a control total from the blockchain that matches what I thought I sent, regardless of whether I posses a private key to it. Not because thats a measure of "transaction veracity" but because thats what everybody else will be doing.
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September 28, 2016, 03:22:12 PM
 #411


there's no point in wanting to "see the locker"

LoL. Remember you said that the next time you check your wallet balance  Wink


There is no point wanting to see the locker which is derived from the list of transactions, to test it against, well, the list of transactions.
I didn't say that the balance information is not useful DERIVED information, but my balance doesn't check the validity of any transaction, given that it has been derived from said transactions.  And your argument falls on its face too, because in monero, you CAN of course check your own balance.

Quote
Why the heck should it matter whether they use the same criteria or different criteria

It matters because (in an unbacked monetary system) there needs to be consensus between the participating parties that  the blockchain state was altered and the nature of that alteration.

There is no such thing as "the block chain state".  It is derived from the valid transactions.  So nobody altered the block chain state, other than adding a valid transaction.  And if that transaction is valid, whatever you call "the block chain state" will be in agreement with said transaction, so "checking it" doesn't add anything of a check.

Quote
For there to be consensus, that state change needs to be reported consistently to all concerned. Doesn't matter if it's "balances" or transaction ID's or what. We all need to be looking at exactly the same information and have access to the same data, even though altering it may be a privileged action.

That "same information" is the block chain, and nothing else.  Whatever you DERIVE from there, is your local business.

Quote
The idea that such a trivially simple but commonly performed act of summing all the transaction outputs for a given random address should be limited to only 1 individual in the entire world who happens to have a private key to that address is ludicrous.

I guess that in that case, you find gold, or cash also a ludicrous monetary system.   Because there's no way to have any way to know the balance of cash, or of gold, of anybody else but yourself too.  The only balance of gold, or cash, that you know of, is your own, like in monero.

However, in monero, you have at least a cryptographic check on the validity of every transaction.  With gold, you have to believe in the laws of nature.  With cash, you have to believe in the veracity of the bill (that it has been printed by a FED approved printer).  At no point, in these systems, you have to check the world's balances either.

I can tell you, that you are quite alone in your worries not to accept any monetary system where you cannot have a public audit of all holdings.  Most people eagerly accept cash or gold without such a check, which, as I have explained several times, doesn't even check anything in a crypto currency, whether it is bitcoin or monero, apart from your local ability to calculate a balance from a block chain.
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September 28, 2016, 03:33:09 PM
 #412


https://goo.gl/O5m4z9 download one app, user friendly, no coding needed.
i recommend mining Monero(XMR) using your CPU, and mine Ethereum(ETH) using your GPU!!

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September 28, 2016, 03:39:57 PM
 #413

This discussion has been on since 2015 despite its "soon" tag but to my surprise, Im hearing about this alt coin for the first time but maybe its my bad or the soon is not here yet. But still if any coin is going to take over from bitcoin, in which I dont see that happening any time soon, then its going to be a long journey because the closest one I have seen so far is ETH which is 0.02 to 1btc but anything can happen though
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September 28, 2016, 07:16:27 PM
Last edit: September 28, 2016, 08:49:48 PM by toknormal
 #414


I don't know how many decades you've been designing and developing transactional systems that allows you to come out with (excuse me) "drivel" such as...

There is no such thing as "the block chain state"

...and...

There is no point wanting to see the locker which is derived from the list of transactions, to test it against, well, the list of transactions

All transactional system's states are derived from the "list of transactions" and All transactional systems support enough transparency to generate a variety of consolidations, control totals and 'state variables' with which to verify agreement between various input and output sources.

If I have access to a wallet application that reports to me I have a "valid transaction" and simultaneously have access to, say, a block explorer somewhere in random cloudland that is tallying all the outputs for a given address they may agree or disagree. In other words my wallet may report that I have a valid transaction and the balance may or may not have moved. Assuming the blockchain is working as advertised, that tells me that either I've got a dodgy wallet or a dodgy block explorer.

Simply saying to users "ok, you've got a valid transaction, now f*ck off" is not enough. A system with such limited audibility is unlikely to engender the public consensus and resistance to huge confidence knocks thats required to get through what bitcoin had to go through in its first decade because it doesn't only have to support it's own integrity but also that of a host of client technology of a vast range of quality and origin.

If I build a brick wall and and counted the number of levels as I went along, I should also be able to measure the wall height and divide by the brick thickness as an alternative to check on my previous result. The number of levels remains the same in both cases, it's just my measure of it I'm checking. People find lots of ways to analyse and audit things - the blockchain needs to support as many as possible and make these transparent.

Another thing. The very fact that we are presenting such consistently opposed points of view tells you something.

Ok, I accept that whether one or the other view is "correct" doesn't necessarily matter. There are users of blockchains who simply put "privacy" as a priority above all else and identify strongly with the concept. Equally there are those who hold "transparency" as a high priority.

But what is the appropriate response to such conflicting design priorities ? To decouple them. Thats what you do in any such situation so that one can be addressed independently of the other. This goes back to the point that I argued at the very start of this discussion - that there are plenty of ways to address fungibility without doing so at the expense of blockchain transparency and that that is the optimal approach since money can't sustain value without confidence but it can sustain it without obscurity.

(P.S. Gold does not have privacy or obscurity "built in". Any privacy that gold holders enjoy is extrinsic not intrinsic and the fact that a vault "hides" the gold does not make the vault any more valuable  Wink )
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September 28, 2016, 07:54:26 PM
 #415

No coin is going to replace Bitcoin. At the end of the day people will trust wahtever has the strongest network and most robust system that is as trusted as possible to stay the same for years to come. Nobody wants to use something that you can't trust the total supply will stay the same and only Bitcoin can guarantee this.
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September 28, 2016, 08:16:51 PM
 #416

I don't know whether Monero will replace Bitcoin, but I will say that Bitcoin is becoming utter garbage at a breakneck pace. Transactions sometimes take hours to confirm, no privacy, mining is totally centralized, political gridlock, etc. Most of the nearby shops that experimented with accepting Bitcoin no longer do. I've lost all confidence at this point. I've gotten rid of all my Bitcoin, and I've advised everyone I know to do the same. Monero looks good in theory, but it needs a lot more work before it will be taken seriously.

I do like that Monero has a strong focus on long term solutions, rather than just pushing the problem down the road for others to solve. On the other hand, it's way harder to use when compared to Bitcoin. So who knows.
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September 28, 2016, 10:45:27 PM
 #417

No. It's very popular at the moment, but people who came in late are always going to look for better opportunities. If it was the only coin of its kind, maybe.
owlcatz
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September 29, 2016, 01:10:25 AM
 #418

No. It's very popular at the moment, but people who came in late are always going to look for better opportunities. If it was the only coin of its kind, maybe.

Cool. So did you get enough characters for your sig posting spam?  Huh

 
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jbreher
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September 29, 2016, 02:04:07 AM
 #419

Simply saying to users "ok, you've got a valid transaction, now f*ck off" is not enough. A system with such limited audibility is unlikely to engender the public consensus and resistance to huge confidence knocks

Really? The vast majority of the world's money is merely zapped into being by the act of loaning it to some consumer, nobody knows a true figure for M0, M1, M2, or Mwhatever, and there are quadrillions in derivatives floating about. And you're worried that john q public can't use two separate methods to arrive at the same answer on a provably-correct system?

Get a freekin' grip. John q public doesn't give a shit.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

I've been convicted of heresy. Convicted by a mere known extortionist. Read my Trust for details.
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September 29, 2016, 02:13:07 AM
 #420

Simply saying to users "ok, you've got a valid transaction, now f*ck off" is not enough. A system with such limited audibility is unlikely to engender the public consensus and resistance to huge confidence knocks

Really? The vast majority of the world's money is merely zapped into being by the act of loaning it to some consumer, nobody knows a true figure for M0, M1, M2, or Mwhatever, and there are quadrillions in derivatives floating about. And you're worried that john q public can't use two separate methods to arrive at the same answer on a provably-correct system?

Get a freekin' grip. John q public doesn't give a shit.

I have to say, following this argument has been somewhat entertaining, but I'm with you now! Cheesy

 
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