Transgender

[Spendulus]

Well this thread certainly got derailed fast.  Back on topic, the experiment posted above is a massive violation of scientific ethics and plain common sense.  Forcing someone to change their gender identity based on an accident is just.. wow.  Just because you don't have the parts doesn't mean you automatically switch mentally to the other gender.

It does seem to show that gender is hardwired into the brain one way or the other (as it should be).  The findings could also be used as an argument that trans people can't just accept the gender they were assigned, since the general consensus of the medical community says the hormones bursts that decide it are before the child is born

Edit for source with more studies

You bring up a very important point that social justice warriors and progressive cultists like to dance around. There is a biological component to gender identity. Gender identity is not just a social construct, it also has basis in biology and hormonal balance. Of course to bring this point up is to some how deny transgender people the ability to identify as they like and even a form of hate speech! Better not discuss any facts, it might offend some one's ideology.

I don't particularly think that they were denying that there is a biological aspect.  On the contrary, the point seeming to be made is that it is not a choice one way or the other, and people should be able to identify with whatever they feel is right for them.  Trans people should really be happy with these findings as it puts a dent in the 'You're just a freak' mentality some people have.

It is a pretty sad day when politics get in the way of science.  

It's interesting that near the beginning of this thread, Beliaton tried to derail the topic with the same bullshit.

And I suggested that the broader issues of mixed sexuality be considered as a background for gender identity issues with no apparent physical problem.  In fact, it is specifically categorized within the spectrum listed.  Re quoting the source document and partially pasting it -


http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Below we provide a summary of statistics drawn from an article by Brown University researcher Anne Fausto-Sterling.2 The basis for that article was an extensive review of the medical literature from 1955 to 1998 aimed at producing numeric estimates for the frequency of sex variations. Note that the frequency of some of these conditions, such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia, differs for different populations. These statistics are approximations.
Not XX and not XY   one in 1,666 births
Klinefelter (XXY)   one in 1,000 births
Androgen insensitivity syndrome   one in 13,000 births
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome   one in 130,000 births
Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia   one in 13,000 births
Late onset adrenal hyperplasia   one in 66 individuals
Vaginal agenesis   one in 6,000 births
Ovotestes   one in 83,000 births
Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause)   one in 110,000 births
Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother)   no estimate
5 alpha reductase deficiency   no estimate
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis   no estimate
Complete gonadal dysgenesis   one in 150,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft)   one in 2,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis)   one in 770 births
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female   one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance   one or two in 1,000 births

1 Dreger, Alice Domurat. 1998. Ambiguous Sex—or Ambivalent Medicine? Ethical Issues in the Treatment of Intersexuality. Hastings Center Report, 28, 3: 24-35.

2 Blackless, Melanie, Anthony Charuvastra, Amanda Derryck, Anne Fausto-Sterling, Karl Lauzanne, and Ellen Lee. 2000. How sexually dimorphic are we? Review and synthesis. American Journal of Human Biology 12:151-166.

Frankly I'd be far more concerned about the problems of a teenager who had both male and female organs trying to learn how to navigate relationships than someone who was mixed up in their head.  But the current discussion of "trans gender" ignores this and focuses on the mixed up as something that needs special attention and special pleading.

Total bullshit.

Whether the SJW like it or or not, issues of acceptance of "trans gender" really are a subset of issues of acceptance of intersexed people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

...these issues are recognized as human rights abuses, with statements from international[7][8] and national human rights and ethics institutions.[9][10] Intersex organizations have also issued joint statements over several years as part of an International Intersex Forum. In April 2015, Malta became the first country to outlaw non-consensual medical interventions to modify sex anatomy, including that of intersex people.[11][12]

Like all individuals, intersex people have various gender identities. Most identify as either a woman or man, while some may identify as neither exclusively a woman nor exclusively a man. Some intersex individuals may be raised as a woman or man but then identify with another gender identity later in life....

Finally, note that the worst human rights abuses toward "transgender" occur not in the liberal Western world in which the SJW preaches through their Pink Mafia burkas, but in Islam, where segregation of male and female is much more emphasized.    As usual, SJW stay in a safe and tolerant place, to preach their offensive rhetoric.

[1714805495]

1714805495

[MakingMoneyHoney]

Well this thread certainly got derailed fast.  Back on topic, the experiment posted above is a massive violation of scientific ethics and plain common sense.  Forcing someone to change their gender identity based on an accident is just.. wow.  Just because you don't have the parts doesn't mean you automatically switch mentally to the other gender.

It does seem to show that gender is hardwired into the brain one way or the other (as it should be).  The findings could also be used as an argument that trans people can't just accept the gender they were assigned, since the general consensus of the medical community says the hormones bursts that decide it are before the child is born

Edit for source with more studies

You bring up a very important point that social justice warriors and progressive cultists like to dance around. There is a biological component to gender identity. Gender identity is not just a social construct, it also has basis in biology and hormonal balance. Of course to bring this point up is to some how deny transgender people the ability to identify as they like and even a form of hate speech! Better not discuss any facts, it might offend some one's ideology.

Let's not ignore that our men are becoming feminized from the foods they eat, and plastics they use: Is society celebrating something they should be furious about? (Feminized Men)

These changes happen to women too, and then affect their children, and those children's children, to the point that the babies are deprived of the biological stuff that might make them identify as male over female.

[Wilikon]

Colorado transgender woman challenges Aetna's denial of coverage for surgery



A Colorado transgender woman’s insurance company has denied her coverage for gender reassignment surgery she says is medically necessary and should be ensured by state law and policy.

Ashlyn Trider, 33, said Aetna Life Insurance Company’s refusal to pay for gender reassignment surgery prescribed by her doctor violates Colorado law. The Transgender Legal Defense Fund & Education Fund has demanded Aetna reverse its decision.

“This is a medical condition. I was born with it,” Trider said. “It’s medically necessary surgery. My doctor has strongly urged this procedure get done. It’s pretty straightforward.”

The denial of coverage violates Colorado law, said TLDEF attorney Ethan Rice. State law and Division of Insurance 2013 guidelines require companies to cover medically necessary care for transgender policyholders on the same terms as all other policyholders.

“It’s pretty clear guidance,” Rice said. “The crux here is that a lot of insurance companies are still excluding coverage. Governments are taking action to end discrimination, but the transgender community still struggles to get the care (it) needs.”

Colorado is one of 10 states, along with the District of Columbia, barring health insurance discrimination against transgender people, Rice said.

A Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies’s bulletin B-B.49 states health insurers cannot deny coverage of treatments for transgender policyholders if the same treatments are covered for other policyholders.

Aetna officials say they can’t discuss any health information about members without signed waivers, but the denial letter sent to Trider says her “plan has a specific exclusion for the requested service or treatment.”



http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_28547845/colorado-transgender-woman-challenges-aetnas-denial-coverage-surgery

[Beliathon]

It is a pretty sad day when politics get in the way of science.  

Christianity has been leveraging politics against science for a long time in the USA, because profit loves ignorance and despises knowledge. Consider the case of Mississippi, our nations most pious Christian state, where one school district was recently fined for opening an assembly with prayer. Mississippi has one simple role in the United States: stopping Texas from coming in fiftieth in measures of quality of life, health care results, education, and other such evidences of civilisation. It is a proud member of Jesusland, one could argue a Christian Mecca in america.

Things Mississippi ranks 1st in
-Teen pregnancy.
-Infant mortality.
-Poverty.
-Obesity.
-Conservatism.
-Weekly church attendance
-Religiosity generally.

Things Mississippi ranks 50th in
-Human Development Index.
-Per capita GDP.
-Life expectancy.
-General health.
-Science and engineering readiness.
-Oh, and also it was the last state to ratify the 13th Amendment (emancipation proclamation) on Febuary 7th, 2013. Yes, Fucking 2013!

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
― Isaac Asimov

“Ignorance is king. Many would not profit by his abdication. Many enrich themselves by means of his dark monarchy. They are his Court, and in his name they defraud and govern, enrich themselves and perpetuate their power. Even literacy they fear, for the written word is another channel of communication that might cause their enemies to become united. Their weapons are keen-honed, and they use them with skill. They will press the battle upon the world when their interests are threatened, and the violence which follows will last until the structure of society as it now exists is leveled to rubble, and a new society emerges. I am sorry. But that is how I see it.”
― Walter M. Miller Jr., A Canticle for Leibowitz

[Beliathon]

Fun facts about transgender folk in the USA:
-78% reported harassment during K-12 schooling
-35% reported physical assault during K-12 schooling
-12% reported sexual violence during K-12 schooling
-41% of transgender people have attempted suicide

Thanks Christianity!

http://www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf

Last Week Tonight - Transgender Rights

[MakingMoneyHoney]

Fun facts about transgender folk in the USA:
-78% reported harassment during K-12 schooling
-35% reported physical assault during K-12 schooling
-12% reported sexual violence during K-12 schooling
-41% of transgender people have attempted suicide

Thanks Christianity!

There you go bringing it back to your hate of Christianity. Yet Christians are instructed to treat others as they would be treated.

You're harassing Christians based on their religion, in the same way you wouldn't want these transgenders to be harassed, you are no better than those you claim to hate.

[Beliathon]

There you go bringing it back to your hate of Christianity. Yet Christians are instructed to treat others as they would be treated.

You're harassing Christians based on their religion, in the same way you wouldn't want these transgenders to be harassed, you are no better than those you claim to hate.

It's not the same at all. I'm attacking violence and human suffering, I'm attacking the ignorance at the root of these evils.

If transgender ignorance in a 70% majority transgender nation was causing 40% of Christians to attempt suicide, I'd be attacking a transgender agenda instead of a Christian agenda.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

There you go bringing it back to your hate of Christianity. Yet Christians are instructed to treat others as they would be treated.

You're harassing Christians based on their religion, in the same way you wouldn't want these transgenders to be harassed, you are no better than those you claim to hate.

If transgender ignorance in a 70% majority transgender nation was causing 40% of Christians to attempt suicide, I'd be attacking a transgender agenda instead of a Christian agenda.

The transgenders are not committing suicide because Christians are ignorant about transgenders. They are committing suicide, most likely, due to teasing from sinful people who do not love God.

1 John 4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

It is not Christian to hate and bully. So you have a problem with sinners, and yet you continually say it's a problem with Christianity, which is clearly against bullying.

There you go bringing it back to your hate of Christianity. Yet Christians are instructed to treat others as they would be treated.

You're harassing Christians based on their religion, in the same way you wouldn't want these transgenders to be harassed, you are no better than those you claim to hate.

It's not the same at all. I'm attacking violence and human suffering, I'm attacking the ignorance at the root of these ills.

Christianity is not violence and human suffering. Yet you blame Christianity.

[Spendulus]

Colorado transgender woman challenges Aetna's denial of coverage for surgery



A Colorado transgender woman’s insurance company has denied her coverage for gender reassignment surgery she says is medically necessary and should be ensured by state law and policy.

Ashlyn Trider, 33, said Aetna Life Insurance Company’s refusal to pay for gender reassignment surgery prescribed by her doctor violates Colorado law. The Transgender Legal Defense Fund & Education Fund has demanded Aetna reverse its decision.

“This is a medical condition. I was born with it,” Trider said. “It’s medically necessary surgery. My doctor has strongly urged this procedure get done. It’s pretty straightforward.”

The denial of coverage violates Colorado law, said TLDEF attorney Ethan Rice. State law and Division of Insurance 2013 guidelines require companies to cover medically necessary care for transgender policyholders on the same terms as all other policyholders.

“It’s pretty clear guidance,” Rice said. “The crux here is that a lot of insurance companies are still excluding coverage. Governments are taking action to end discrimination, but the transgender community still struggles to get the care (it) needs.”

Colorado is one of 10 states, along with the District of Columbia, barring health insurance discrimination against transgender people, Rice said.

A Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies’s bulletin B-B.49 states health insurers cannot deny coverage of treatments for transgender policyholders if the same treatments are covered for other policyholders.

Aetna officials say they can’t discuss any health information about members without signed waivers, but the denial letter sent to Trider says her “plan has a specific exclusion for the requested service or treatment.”



http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_28547845/colorado-transgender-woman-challenges-aetnas-denial-coverage-surgery

Actually, in the past, intersex individuals were considered to have a "medical Disorder."  Such classification caused early intervention, doctors would do surgery on children to make them more "normal appearing."  This is now very much frowned upon, and the phrase "Disorder" is no longer applied to these individuals. 

Thus I can see good rationales to refusing insurance coverage when there is no "medical disorder" or disease.

The surgery and treatments clearly are elective, and seem to me to be similar to various plastic surgeries to enhance one's appearance or one's attractiveness to the opposite sex.  Note that some fraction of plastic surgeries are to correct abnomalities, and those arguably should be covered.  Note that intersex was considered such, but now is not....

MORE BULLYING - this time of insurance companies.

[TECSHARE]

Is it a crime to misgender somebody?  No, and it never will be (hopefully).  Is it dickish?  Yes, but that's your right as long as it's only words and nobody gets physical. 

Words kill too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

Are there any studies demonstrating that LGBT suicides are a direct result of bullying and harassment and not from hormonal imbalances which are known to cause emotional problems? Oh that's right, you just make this assumption without scientific basis and those studies don't exist.

Re: http://www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf
Self reported surveys, the pinnacle of scientific method! At least you are learning how to reference things (even if it is still unscientific).

[Spendulus]

There you go bringing it back to your hate of Christianity. Yet Christians are instructed to treat others as they would be treated.

You're harassing Christians based on their religion, in the same way you wouldn't want these transgenders to be harassed, you are no better than those you claim to hate.

If transgender ignorance in a 70% majority transgender nation was causing 40% of Christians to attempt suicide, I'd be attacking a transgender agenda instead of a Christian agenda.

The transgenders are not committing suicide because Christians are ignorant about transgenders. They are committing suicide, most likely, due to teasing from sinful people who do not love God.

1 John 4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

It is not Christian to hate and bully. So you have a problem with sinners, and yet you continually say it's a problem with Christianity, which is clearly against bullying.

There you go bringing it back to your hate of Christianity. Yet Christians are instructed to treat others as they would be treated.

You're harassing Christians based on their religion, in the same way you wouldn't want these transgenders to be harassed, you are no better than those you claim to hate.

It's not the same at all. I'm attacking violence and human suffering, I'm attacking the ignorance at the root of these ills.

Christianity is not violence and human suffering. Yet you blame Christianity.

They all drink Coca-cola.  Clearly Coca-cola is responsible for all the LGT suicides.

[Beliathon]

[Beliathon]

[bojan92]

They are people too. It is not needed for someone to understand them. They like what they have become and would like to live like that. That is fine with me everybody has a right to do what he or she wants with their life

[rokkyroad]

They are people too. It is not needed for someone to understand them. They like what they have become and would like to live like that. That is fine with me everybody has a right to do what he or she wants with their life

Exactly.

Where the problem lies is: they want to shove it down everyones' throats. It's not enough to go about doing their own thing. No one cares but they want to stand out and be special I guess. 

I lived in a smaller community where two transgender people resided. They went about their business like everyone else. No one bothered them and they fit in fine. No one would ever have known except for the fact they had been born and raised there.

[TECSHARE]

They are people too. It is not needed for someone to understand them. They like what they have become and would like to live like that. That is fine with me everybody has a right to do what he or she wants with their life

Exactly.

Where the problem lies is: they want to shove it down everyones' throats. It's not enough to go about doing their own thing. No one cares but they want to stand out and be special I guess. 

I lived in a smaller community where two transgender people resided. They went about their business like everyone else. No one bothered them and they fit in fine. No one would ever have known except for the fact they had been born and raised there.

That's the lynchpin of this whole debate. These activist groups don't speak for the majority of LGBT peoples. Most LGBT people would be more than happy to live in an environment of tolerance, like everyone has a right to. What these groups are demanding is acceptance, and no one has a right to force anyone else to accept their own world view. All of these overreaching policies these activist groups are trying to push effect all of us. Opposition to them is not equivalent to bigotry or hatred no matter how much they wish to cast it in this light.

[rokkyroad]

That's the lynchpin of this whole debate. These activist groups don't speak for the majority of LGBT peoples. Most LGBT people would be more than happy to live in an environment of tolerance, like everyone has a right to. What these groups are demanding is acceptance, and no one has a right to force anyone else to accept their own world view. All of these overreaching policies these activist groups are trying to push effect all of us. Opposition to them is not equivalent to bigotry or hatred no matter how much they wish to cast it in this light.

You hit the nail on the head and so eloquently. Thankyou.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

That's the lynchpin of this whole debate. These activist groups don't speak for the majority of LGBT peoples. Most LGBT people would be more than happy to live in an environment of tolerance, like everyone has a right to. What these groups are demanding is acceptance, and no one has a right to force anyone else to accept their own world view. All of these overreaching policies these activist groups are trying to push effect all of us. Opposition to them is not equivalent to bigotry or hatred no matter how much they wish to cast it in this light.

You hit the nail on the head and so eloquently. Thankyou.

Agreed.

It also shows that the ones campaigning for acceptance, are being hypocritical, because they want everyone to accept them, but they don't accept that other religions don't accept transgenders/homosexuals.

It would be great if everyone just tolerated people different then themselves, which can happen, but people keep pushing against each other for acceptance, and are being hypocritical, and I place Christians not tolerating transgenders/homosexuals in that hypocritical state too.

[TECSHARE]

One other big point also is that other protected classes are fairly easy to document. For example, you can tell some one is a minority (usually) just by looking at them, and the difference in the way they look is usually the source of discrimination. If you are discriminating against some one's religion, there are usually some kind of records or at least witnesses to ones observance of whatever faith you choose. If you are discriminated against by age or gender, you can just check their drivers license or birth certificate etc.

How do you prove you are gay? What is to stop individuals from just claiming to be gay in order to bring frivolous criminal and civil charges against various organizations and individuals? Don't get me wrong, I am against prejudice of any kind, but if the laws can not be effectively enforced, isn't that a pretty big problem for everyone?

Current list of protected classes in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class

[jaysabi]

That's the lynchpin of this whole debate. These activist groups don't speak for the majority of LGBT peoples. Most LGBT people would be more than happy to live in an environment of tolerance, like everyone has a right to. What these groups are demanding is acceptance, and no one has a right to force anyone else to accept their own world view. All of these overreaching policies these activist groups are trying to push effect all of us. Opposition to them is not equivalent to bigotry or hatred no matter how much they wish to cast it in this light.

You hit the nail on the head and so eloquently. Thankyou.

How is "acceptance" and "tolerance" different? They appear the same to me, as a tolerant society is built upon acceptance of all its members.