[ANN] Bitcoin Foundation

[boonies4u]

This isn't the "lesser evil" - it's this or nothing - currently.

False. Is this or leaving the code, the client and my fucking coins the way they are now.

Whether or not TBF exists, the code, the client, and therefore how your coins move about in the network if you chose to send them somewhere will change.

Of course you are free to use an alternate client.

[finkleshnorts]

You are missing everything.

Thanks for the rude answer to a polite question.

Power was suppose to be decentralized residing with individuals with a central authority

I don't understand the meaning of this sentence.

. We now have a quasi central authority that it's true, it can't control how Bitcoin runs, but it can control all the other aspects of it: lead dev, dev team, logo, pr, legal, you name it.

dev team is dev team because 1) they put hard work in and 2) people are pleased with their work. The other things you list are things that won't be accomplished without some sort of quasi-central authority.

And I didn't consent to any of it.

You are if you are still using the client and protocol that they put so much work into. This is the evolution of this open source project. Not everyone is going to agree and it's not going to be a democracy, much less a perfect one. The people who step up and contribute, like all the members of the board, are the ones who get to represent the project.

[boonies4u]

I don't understand what "power" has to do with any of this. What am I missing?

You are missing everything.

Power was suppose to be decentralized residing with individuals with a central authority. We now have a quasi central authority that it's true, it can't control how Bitcoin runs, but it can control all the other aspects of it: lead dev, dev team, logo, pr, legal, you name it.

And I didn't consent to any of it.


On a personal note, I can't tell you how exhausting today is for me. Even my family noticed I was feeling really down.

You don't have to consent to a collective forming. People are allowed to voluntarily pool their resources. You people must really feel high and mighty if you think that your consent is required, considered, or even should be asked for.

[Polvos]

If people like you aren't happy with the direction of Bitcoin you are free to fork it and go on your way.

As we still are free to inform the users about the theats OUR currency are facing

[finkleshnorts]

It is a democracy inasmuch as your "votes" are the efforts you contribute to the project. I simply reap the rewards by using bitcoin. I don't feel entitled by any means and I am grateful the foundation exists.

[Atlas]

If people like you aren't happy with the direction of Bitcoin you are free to fork it and go on your way.

As we still are free to inform the users about the theats OUR currency are facing

Yes, yes we are and we will continue.

[acoindr]

I don't understand what "power" has to do with any of this. What am I missing?

Thanks for the question. I'll try and answer, give a sec...

[ElectricMucus]

This isn't the "lesser evil" - it's this or nothing - currently.

False. Is this or leaving the code, the client and my fucking coins the way they are now.

Are you calling to stop improving the client? Or is this about the fear that lets say a part of you coins are sent to a goverment wallet without your consent? (or any other ridiculous scenario dreamed up here)
Because neither of those will happen, with our without the bitcoin foundation.

[Polvos]

This isn't the "lesser evil" - it's this or nothing - currently.

False. Is this or leaving the code, the client and my fucking coins the way they are now.

Whether or not TBF exists, the code, the client, and therefore how your coins move about in the network if you chose to send them somewhere will change.

Of course you are free to use an alternate client.

False. A self defined "THE Bitcoin Foundation" is a newcomers honeypot with the two biggest exchangers and the main bitcoin developer forming part of it. If the developer ends up tweaking the widespread newcomers client in order to, for example, reject the MtGOX tainted coin list (or the USA government tainted list), my bitcoins atomatically will be less valuable. Remember that Gavin is in "money searching mode" as they say in the web.

Remember: Control the newcomers and, someday, you will control the bitcoin network majority.

[ElectricMucus]

Since when is there a mtgox tainted coins list? 

[acoindr]

I don't understand what "power" has to do with any of this. What am I missing?

Let's play devil's advocate shall we?

Bitcoin currently has a market cap of around 125 million dollars (exchange rate 12.50 x about 10M coins). It currently returns over 19 million results on Google, is owned/used by hundreds of thousands of users, including several businesses, and has global reach.

Now, all of this has been based upon a perception of what Bitcoin is. Key to that perception is that it's decentralized. If, from the start, the currency/system began and at its heart was a "Bitcoin Foundation" claiming to speak for it I doubt it would have gotten this far. This is because people's primary objection would be, but wait, it's not decentralized!

People would be, justifiably, skeptical. Who are the people that run the corporation? How many of the coins did they get? How much power and influence over what exists of Bitcoin do they have? Etc. The people would have speculated that surely if and when the project grew this representative entity would amass more wealth, power, and influence. How could it not? A lot of people that got involved would have said, no thank you, I'm quite sure.

Now, let's look what really happened. Bitcoin did NOT start this way. It was marketed as decentralized, and because there was no perceived concentration of power, it essentially was and is. This allowed the progress to date. But, now enters the representative entity tending toward centralization of power. Regardless of how it says it's designed to be benevolent in reality there are many ways it can and will acquire power. One example: most people don't know of Bitcoin. Let's say enough people start thinking TBF is truly the deal representing bitcoin. They will begin referring to it as such, including word of mouth and giving such link juice to Google. This would only increase over time. Can you not see how this entity begins to have a monopoly of anything regarding Bitcoin? But back to the example, new people start to learn of TBF first because that's how the world perceives Bitcoin is represented. Many go straight to their site, rather than anywhere else (where dissenting voices may be) and they donate and/or read into and become involved with TBF's version of Bitcoin. There are always at least two sides to any story, but new users would always only get the one side. That's just one example of where the power comes from. Another quick one is (clandestine) meetings of high level members with powerful outside entities, like VISA or U.S. gov, or TPTB, take your pick.

EDIT: one way I see to alleviate the pressures and problems I point out above is to have the entity intentionally seek to deflect and LIMIT itself amassing power. I'll therefore ask my question yet again, for the fourth time below...

[Polvos]

Since when is there a mtgox tainted coins list? 

It's a hidden list. I read about it in this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=73385.msg815195#msg815195

[johnyj]

I saw many brilliant thoughts in these posts and enjoy reading them!

Sadly, when there is money, there will be politician, this never changes

[auzaar]

I don't understand what "power" has to do with any of this. What am I missing?

Let's play devil's advocate shall we?

Bitcoin currently has a market cap of around 125 million dollars (exchange rate 12.50 x about 10M coins). It currently returns over 19 million results on Google, is owned/used by hundreds of thousands of users, including several businesses, and has global reach.

Now, all of this has been based upon a perception of what Bitcoin is. Key to that perception is that it's decentralized. If, from the start, the currency/system began and at its heart was a "Bitcoin Foundation" claiming to speak for it I doubt it would have gotten this far. This is because people's primary objection would be, but wait, it's not decentralized!

People would be, justifiably, skeptical. Who are the people that run the corporation? How many of the coins did they get? How much power and influence over what exists of Bitcoin do they have? Etc. The people would have speculated that surely if and when the project grew this representative entity would amass more wealth, power, and influence. How could it not? A lot of people that got involved would have said, no thank you, I'm quite sure.

Now, let's look what really happened. Bitcoin did NOT start this way. It was marketed as decentralized, and because there was no perceived concentration of power, it essentially was and is. This allowed the progress to date. But, now enters the representative entity tending toward centralization of power. Regardless of how it says it's designed to be benevolent in reality there are many ways it can and will acquire power. One example: most people don't know of Bitcoin. Let's say enough people start thinking TBF is truly the deal representing bitcoin. They will begin referring to it as such, including word of mouth and giving such link juice to Google. This would only increase over time. Can you not see how this entity begins to have a monopoly of anything regarding Bitcoin? But back to the example, new people start to learn of TBF first because that's how the world perceives Bitcoin is represented. Many go straight to their site, rather than anywhere else (where dissenting voices may be) and they donate and/or read into and become involved with TBF's version of Bitcoin. There are always at least two sides to any story, but new users would always only get the one side. That's just one example of where the power comes from. Another quick one is (clandestine) meetings of high level members with powerful outside entities, like VISA or U.S. gov, or TPTB, take your pick.

What I fail to understand is that what it all has to do with bitcoin protocol, is it part of the bitcoin protocol that no body will form a foundation of any sort?
I understand people may think that this may not be a good decision and they may be right but everyone is free to do anything and it is wrong to behave like you have been deceived or some contract has been broken. If tomorrow you open a Bitcoin Group can I or should I stop you? I can only request you that it may not be good for bitcoin.

[ElectricMucus]

Since when is there a mtgox tainted coins list? 

It's a hidden list. I read about it in this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=73385.msg815195#msg815195

Well, if they are doing this internal that's their predicament. I still consider that a bad move, and trade my BTC elsewere from now on.
Thanks for the info.

[misterbigg]

What I fail to understand is that what it all has to do with bitcoin protocol, is it part of the bitcoin protocol that no body will form a foundation of any sort?

As has been stated many times, control over the protocol is not the issue here, it is influence over the ecosystem that surrounds it. Take the exchanges for example. What if all the exchanges disappeared due to regulation? The protocol would be intact, as would the clients, but there would be a tremendous loss of liquidity for conversion to and from fiat.

With "A Bitcoin Foundation" becoming a de-facto authority when it comes to communicating with the press, governments, or business, it will inevitably grow in its power to affect the ecosystem. Probably these guys mean well, but corruption is always an increasing function of time, never a decreasing one.

[acoindr]

What I fail to understand is that what it all has to do with bitcoin protocol, is it part of the bitcoin protocol that no body will form a foundation of any sort?
I understand people may think that this may not be a good decision and they may be right but everyone is free to do anything and it is wrong to behave like you have been deceived or some contract has been broken. If tomorrow you open a Bitcoin Group can I or should I stop you? I can only request you that it may not be good for bitcoin.

Good question. Thanks for asking  

No. It's NOT part of the protocol/rules that nobody shall form a foundation. What the leading developers and others have done isn't against Bitcoin in any way EXCEPT that it may be ill-advised.

Let me clarify some things.

Nobody is saying these people don't have the right to do what they did by forming TBF, including the way they did it. They are free to take any actions they choose. It's a free, well, not country, but free Internet/world sort of thing.... It's a free market. That's the point.

What the dissenters are doing is fulfilling their proper role in the free market by objecting to some event which has happened within that free market. We are trying to convince people (including the people involved) that they may be taking the wrong action(s) in one or more ways. That is healthy.

I'm not against a free market, against developers getting paid, or even against foundations forming. What I am against, however, is ill-advised actions whether intentional or not. My goal is to highlight what ill-advised actions may be.

[misterbigg]

If these guys who started "A Bitcoin Foundation" would have embraced the community a little better instead of twirling their moustaches while hatching their plot in secret, perhaps the rollout would have been welcomed almost unanimously with open arms. Instead, they caused a divide. Bad karma.

[Polvos]

Since when is there a mtgox tainted coins list?  

It's a hidden list. I read about it in this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=73385.msg815195#msg815195

Well, if they are doing this internal that's their predicament. I still consider that a bad move, and trade my BTC elsewere from now on.
Thanks for the info.

Yes, they are doing it now internally, but from yesterday their donations pay the Gavin Andresen payroll. Maybe even Mtgox is one of the premium members of the Foundation. I don't know.

But as Atlas says, control the widespread bitcoin implementation, and you will control all the network.

[auzaar]

What I fail to understand is that what it all has to do with bitcoin protocol, is it part of the bitcoin protocol that no body will form a foundation of any sort?
I understand people may think that this may not be a good decision and they may be right but everyone is free to do anything and it is wrong to behave like you have been deceived or some contract has been broken. If tomorrow you open a Bitcoin Group can I or should I stop you? I can only request you that it may not be good for bitcoin.

Good question. Thanks for asking  

No. It's NOT part of the protocol/rules that nobody shall form a foundation. What the leading developers and others have done isn't against Bitcoin in any way EXCEPT that it may be ill-advised.

Let me clarify some things.

Nobody is saying these people don't have the right to do what they did by forming TBF, including the way they did it. They are free to take any actions they choose. It's a free, well, not country, but free Internet/world sort of thing.... It's a free market. That's the point.

What the dissenters are doing is fulfilling their proper role in the free market by objecting to some event which has happened within that free market. We are trying to convince people (including the people involved) that they may be taking the wrong action(s) in one or more ways. That is healthy.

I'm not against a free market, against developers getting paid, or even against foundations forming. What I am against, however, is ill-advised actions whether intentional or not. My goal is to highlight what ill-advised actions may be.

Thanks, then all is well. Let the protest continue, I on my part am still undecided, because it can have both a positive and negative impact, if done properly can make bitcoin stable and popular, but as all of you have pointed out, power corrupts. I think it should be renamed "Bitcoin Foundation (USA)" and we should have such other foundations in other countries, @Amit Taki Bitcoin Foundation (UK) ?