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Author Topic: The 21 Bitcoin Computer  (Read 11782 times)
NorrisK
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September 22, 2015, 07:19:46 AM
 #101

The 21 Bitcoin Computer

Today we’re announcing a new kind of device for sale: the 21 Bitcoin Computer...

LiteCoinGuy, you work for 21?

What's the expected ROI (in time) on this $400 machine. And don't tell me "well that depends on...", of course it depends on a lot of things, but any company that wants to sell something will do the assumptions for us and let us know how quickly this machine brings home the profit!

It Will never make you q profit from mining. It is basically 20-40 USD of mining hardware in 400 USD ahell that cannet even roi it's own 20-40 USD cost..
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Once a transaction has 6 confirmations, it is extremely unlikely that an attacker without at least 50% of the network's computation power would be able to reverse it.
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September 22, 2015, 07:23:48 AM
 #102

Quote
Yes, you can indeed make a profit with the 21 Bitcoin Computer. However, you would do so not by directly selling bitcoin, but by selling digital goods for bitcoin. That is, you are not going to get rich by immediately selling the bitcoin mined by the device for offline currency, but you can potentially do very well by selling digital goods and services to others for their bitcoin.

Wow, what a freaking scam! I was kind of borderline with this whole thing, but flat out deceiving people like that is just wrong.

"you can potentially do very well by selling digital goods..." So that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS 21 COMPUTER THEN!

It's like saying "Yes, you can indeed make a profit with McDonalds Big Macs. However you would do so not by directly eating the Big Macs, but by working somewhere and getting paid to do so."



Ok, here's what they can do: they're running a proprietary micropayments server so mocrotransactions won't all be directly on the blockchain. That will limit blockchain bloat but centralize payments, defeating the purpose of crypto. The interesting possibility is that they will pay you in bitcoin for running a full node, even if you aren't mining much or at all. How the economics of this business model works out is still a mystery.

Basically this computer is a hardware interface to their microtransaction server. It's a debit card that you plug into the wall. It would be stupid but this is a debit card your toaster can use. hmm. I guess that would still make it stupid.

insert coin here:
Dash XfXZL8WL18zzNhaAqWqEziX2bUvyJbrC8s



1Ctd7Na8qE7btyueEshAJF5C7ZqFWH11Wc
lyth0s
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September 22, 2015, 07:30:20 AM
 #103

This device could be the start of the internet of things. This specific device is made for developers and people that want to get in on the ground floor. This is obviously not the device that your grandmother will use. Once 21 Inc proves functionality more businesses will jump in on this model of hub and spoke with using the onchain blockchain as the settlement layer to decentralize this process once again.

Here is some additional food for thought:


Quote
Virtualized symmetric multiprocessing! ESX!
Imagine a global virtualized hypercomputer with on-the-fly negotiable capacity,
participating nodes being rewarded with Bitcoins for being part of that virtual computer.
i.e. Build a singular massively distributed global scale supercomputer to blow amazon Amazon's EC2 out of the water.
A global scale cloud computing cluster using excess capacity sourced from consumer grade, consumer owned hardware. Building the next generation computer.
Bigger than any datacenter.
USING BITCOIN TO TURN THE INTERNET INTO ONE BIG COMPUTING MACHINE.
HOLY ****** SHIT!
"YOU ARE ONLY USING 10%... would you like some Bitcoin?"

So I'm thinking...
There are billions of computers in the world today. We are putting millions more online every single day.
How much of the global pool of internet-connected computing resources
[compute, storage, bandwidth, memory]
is idle (i.e. just going to waste, generating heat) at any particular time?
Well, most of it.
21's "Grand plan" could involve putting these idle, wasteful computing resources to some productive use.
If this is technically feasible, it's the biggest business plan since... I don't even know.
Balaji has said, "Bitcoin is bigger than google." i.e. if google pointed 100% of their computing resources at Bitcoin mining, they'd have 1% of the network. And nobody could understand what he was on about.
Google datacenters are general purpouse computing hardware, SHA-256 miners only do one thing.
It's often said: You're only using 10% of your brain. That is false. But most of your neurons are running idle.
Running NOPs. Waiting for work to come by.
If 21 could unlock the metaphorical (or actual) 90% of computing resources that are being wasted,
and put a good fraction to some productive use. That would obviously be a huge, huge, huge deal.
Bitcoin provides the economic incentive to unlock these resources.
You could be rewarded with satoshis or millibits by the second or by the minute.
For letting 21 borrow your hardware and renting it out.
What if, instead of simply building more computers,
we use bitcoins as the economic lubricant to utilize
the unused capacity of hundreds of millions of computers
running on idle in homes, schools, offices and datacenters.
So you can agree to throw those spare compute resources at protein folding or business problems,
Turning your machine (PC, server, laptop, router, fridge) into a part-time node in a global virtual supercomputer.
You pimp out your hardware to google so that they don't have to build that new expensive datacenter, but use your home computer instead.
No worrying about cooling costs!
The world is filled with increasingly powerful computing devices.
Most of them doing nothing, most of the time.
See for yourself:
If you happen to be on a Windows machine:
Press Ctrl+Alt+Delete.
Go to task manager.
Show processes from all users.
Sort by CPU time.
At the top... you'll find "System idle process.", likely at 80-90%
On Linux/Mac you can use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_(software), for example.
Hey! Is that 90% of your CPU time going to waste? (Oh no! Think of the environment!)
How much of your available bandwidth are you using right now?
Less than 10%? Less than 1%?
Your processors are running idle for the majority of the time.
Most of your available bandwidth is unused, right this very moment.
The case of Google and shrinking hardware cost

One of the more important clever things Google did when starting out was....
using consumer hardware. not crazy expensive server hardware.
Normal consumer HDDS, farms of normal PCs to crawl the web.
Brilliant, in retrospect.
This brought costs way down. This made Google feasible.
Perhaps Google could hire [a part of] 21's computer in the sky to run MapReduce or other algorithms, maybe not.
You'd presumably be limited to Embarrassingly parallel problems.
But many important problems are embarrassingly parallel.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_distributed_computing_projects
or any distributed computing project you care to think about.
21 could bring not thousands, but millions and eventually billions of computers, to bear on problems, by working in their spare time. Using idle CPU cycles. Because you can reimburse the worker nodes in BTC.
You'll get paid for it! Current distributed computing projects cannot reward contributors with money.
This one can.
Using BTC transactions to negotiate use of spare computing resources (Storage, CPU, Bandwidth) for unknown applications. We can build a global supercloud.
The general public still has no idea what their business plan is.
But this could be one piece of it.
A note on Bayesian inference:

From the set of all possible hypotheses, describing all possible worlds that fit the available evidence,
which hypotheses are more likely to be true, given what we know?
When judging the probability of hypotheses being true based on partial evidence.
Building an "internet-sized computer" isn't the only hypothesis that fits the evidence...
...but it knocks making toasters out of the park.
...so 21 is SKYNET?

Very obviously, 21 Inc. is not simply about putting chips in people's hardware to make money off of mining.
Perhaps then, 21 is hoarding Bitcoins to PAY PEOPLE for RENTING OUT their GENERAL (not application specific) computing hardware for BTC.
Perhaps they are putting BTC hardware wallets and SHA-256 miners in routers and SoC silicon.
For some unrevealed future use.
...Sidechains and micropayments

This one is obvious. No Skynet on the mainchain. Not with 1MB blocks.
--> Enter Lightning networks.
But 21 Inc. has already mined > 65K BTC, according to year-old data.
For themselves? Or... to pay the worker nodes of Skynet.
...encrypt everything:

Every work unit delivered by 21/skynet would need strong unbackdoored, unbreakable encryption.
Which imbues the whole "Golden Key" encryption backdoor debate with new importance.
Privacy... Is a solvable problem. You can distribute your business secrets
IFF there is unbackdoored, trustworthy encryption.
...getting grandma to use Bitcoin.

With SoC integration (Intel, Qualcomm) and hardware wallets grandma will be using Bitcoin,
if she buys the latest laptop. This is their "phase #3", so perhaps a five years to a decade out?
...Think bigger

21's gameplan is definitely a multi year, likely a multi decade play.
Endgame: In 2030, most grid-connected computers will be part of THE COMPUTER.
Tesla/Powerwall future citywide storage and excess electricity.

Excess power plays into it. 21's Skynet wants to profitably use that excess power.
One internet-sized computer. Powered by Bitcoin.
And this is why Qualcomm and Intel's CEO are involved in 21.


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September 22, 2015, 07:38:00 AM
 #104

This device could be the start of the internet of things. This specific device is made for developers and people that want to get in on the ground floor. This is obviously not the device that your grandmother will use. Once 21 Inc proves functionality more businesses will jump in on this model of hub and spoke with using the onchain blockchain as the settlement layer to decentralize this process once again.

Here is some additional food for thought:



no it fuckin wont

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Quote
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September 22, 2015, 07:54:22 AM
 #105

well its a investment like 400 $ to get 0.80 per day into 500 days you roi... well lets be general good on this a 500 days to return of investment its prettiy damn difficlut to invest like 400$ and besides a bit of eletrecity im not sure im gonna raise those 400 i think a bit but into 3 months i chage ideas?.

assuming you don't have to pay for electricity, right? you will never ROI with this thing. it's impossible

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September 22, 2015, 07:58:34 AM
 #106

Pretty exciting times. If this all plays out like 21 inc envisions it 11/16/2015 will go down in history as the start of the IoT.

If you want a positive outlook on how these devices could be used check out the retweets of their CEO here: https://twitter.com/balajis

If you want the negative just think in pure fiat and commercialized mining terms: These will never ever ROI on their mining capabilities (not that they were meant to...see the big picture here guys).

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September 22, 2015, 08:01:41 AM
 #107

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2015/09/21/21-inc-releases-first-product-a-bitcoin-computer/

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September 22, 2015, 08:04:39 AM
 #108

little machines autonomously making money online, is this the beginnings of skynet?


                Buy 21 bitcoins or die!


that would be a good TV commercial  Wink

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September 22, 2015, 08:18:22 AM
 #109

little machines autonomously making money online, is this the beginnings of skynet?


                Buy 21 bitcoins or die!


that would be a good TV commercial  Wink

So only 1 million will survive the war against the machines?

Im not really here, its just your imagination.
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September 22, 2015, 08:50:41 AM
 #110

I looks very good, especially for the color. Black is cool Smiley
LiteCoinGuy (OP)
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September 22, 2015, 08:51:30 AM
 #111

1 million bitcoiners  Tongue


ADDING BITCOIN TO THE PHYSICAL WORLD

http://n-o-d-e.net/post/129604219576/the-21-bitcoin-computer-enabling-a-p2p-world

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September 22, 2015, 09:14:15 AM
 #112

Raspberri pi:  $35
63 GH/s antminer U3: $20
128GB SD card: $25
wifi dongle $10
total hardware: $90

21 microcomputer $400.00???

They need to cover their expenses. Assuming that they spent 10M on the chip development, extra 200$ will require to sell 50'000 devices. They can't charge $250, I doubt there will be 200'000 customers.
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September 22, 2015, 09:29:35 AM
 #113

$400 seems a little expensive for a modded RPi2?

also, can you buy this thing with bitcoin? no? well...


Raspberri pi:  $35
63 GH/s antminer U3: $20
128GB SD card: $25
wifi dongle $10
total hardware: $90

21 microcomputer $400.00???



You're underestimating costs. This breakdown seems more accurate:

Quote
1. Raspberry Pi 2: $35
 2. 128 GB memory card: $75.95
 3. Raspberry Pi B+ Power Supply: $6.99
 4. Raspberry Pi WIFI Adapter: $8.56
 5. Raspberry Pi Cooling Fan: $7.99
 6. USB to TTL Serial Cable: $9.95
 7. Heat sink: $10
 8. 125 gh/s USB miner: $93
...
The total cost of these components is $247.44
http://samuelrpatterson.com/breakdown-of-hardware-costs-for-new-21-inc-bitcoin-computer/
link posted by HostFat earlier in this thread.

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September 22, 2015, 09:36:32 AM
 #114

The price is way over the top to get an internet of things going.. But surely machines like this will boost the node count significantly.

How would updating this thing go?
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September 22, 2015, 09:42:52 AM
 #115

$400 seems a little expensive for a modded RPi2?

also, can you buy this thing with bitcoin? no? well...


Raspberri pi:  $35
63 GH/s antminer U3: $20
128GB SD card: $25
wifi dongle $10
total hardware: $90

21 microcomputer $400.00???



You're underestimating costs. This breakdown seems more accurate:

Quote
1. Raspberry Pi 2: $35
 2. 128 GB memory card: $75.95
 3. Raspberry Pi B+ Power Supply: $6.99
 4. Raspberry Pi WIFI Adapter: $8.56
 5. Raspberry Pi Cooling Fan: $7.99
 6. USB to TTL Serial Cable: $9.95
 7. Heat sink: $10
 8. 125 gh/s USB miner: $93
...
The total cost of these components is $247.44
http://samuelrpatterson.com/breakdown-of-hardware-costs-for-new-21-inc-bitcoin-computer/
link posted by HostFat earlier in this thread.

However, this ignores the value of the OS, which comes with tools that are supposed to make using Bitcoin easier, including tools that allow developers to sell digital content directly for Bitcoin.

main problem: people dont understand the vision of that company.

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September 22, 2015, 09:44:19 AM
 #116

haha, for me it looks like RPi with some board on it running little bit customized linux and yes, it is bloody overpriced.

it seems that manufacturer wants to use word tags like: bitcoin, mine, linux, opensource but sadly didn't invent anything new. only potential customer is then average Joe and this guy don't want to pay 400USD for useless gadget. maybe next time..
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September 22, 2015, 09:45:38 AM
 #117


main problem: people dont understand the vision of that company.

thats right; IMHO their website lacks information...

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September 22, 2015, 10:25:17 AM
 #118

main problem: people dont understand the vision of that company.

[ ] This is the fault of the (non) customers for being too stupid (or just not psychic enough)

[ ] This is the fault of the company for not communicating its vision effectively.
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September 22, 2015, 10:45:39 AM
 #119


main problem: people dont understand the vision of that company.

thats right; IMHO their website lacks information...


I like their vision... I don't think the device is meant to be a miner and we shouldn't be looking at it as a comparison to miners in general.

Its a complete bitcoin node with suite of tools. I look at it in 2 ways

- a test bed for a device you have at home hooked into your pc all the time... you become your own paypal... you send payments through applications on this device for your Netflix content consuming etc. Down the track I'm sure it will be shrunk in size and look more appealing. It'll become another device attached to your computer like a printer, scanner etc. Maybe somewhere wirelessly in the house where you make payments I dunno.

- you'll see something like this at all your stores hooked to their computers at the cash register. they'll run the suite of tools on this device integrated with point of sales to process your sales in an uncomplicated way. I know they have ipad apps etc that do this but a branded box device with as much VC money and push that 21 inc has I can see it being pushed to stores in an aggressive way once more people adopt it.

I think this is just phase one and this is the service and utility we are wanting to have bitcoin push forwards so I'm excited about it. Your bitcoin holdings will have value in use and not just cash to fiat. I think this is going to be a big deal longer term.

Yes its a pi with their chip but its the software component and use case that gives it value... they are just building off a hardware product that does what it does well at present.

Good times... I think i'll get some more bitcoin.

I'm hoping its easily adaptable to other alt coins.... but maybe only sha256.
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September 22, 2015, 10:47:03 AM
 #120

What's the point of including a miner that will never pay for itself?

If you need internet access, why not just use more efficient cloud-based APIs?

Can the blockchain ever scale to handle machine-to-machine micro-payments?

Can a RPi2-class CPU handle a bitcoin full node when bitcoin will have been scaled to handle machine-to-machine micro-payments? (ie. several orders of magnitude more tx per second)

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