The 21 Bitcoin Computer

[brg444]

I like the idea of the Bitcoin Computer (looks awesome) but the only thing is that it is too expensive. With less than $400, I can set up a RPI and a decent miner. It's still good though, as it's a way to encourage other people to get interested on Bitcoin 

This is what supporters on the thread don't understand. The price point and poor value are discouraging participation, exactly the opposite of what is needed for this to become important, and exactly the opposite of the Altair 8800 which was earlier cited as helping to spark a revolution in personal computing. The latter was not only priced very aggressively (at cost) but also was much easier than designing your own computer. It is just not the case that designing and building your own "Bitcoin Computer" is difficult or expensive (or even comparable cost)

They're targeting engineers and developers, the price point is irrelevant as they obviously don't expect typical Bitcoiners to buy this.

The price point is not irrelevant when you are trying to get people to experiment with something with no particular use case in mind. Honestly the best price point to encourage that kind of exploratory development is zero (i.e. SDK download). All you are doing by charging for unnecessary hardware (especially overpriced hardware) is introducing friction that discourages involvement.

No one has a strong need for this device because there are literally no existing use cases that it compellingly addresses. Without such a strong need the best approach is to remove friction to maximize the breadth of involvement and see what happens.

Maybe it's not readily apparent to you, a crypto-wiz, but apparently some people disagree:

Developers and tinkerers currently have a massive barrier to entry with Bitcoin. Here is a simple scenario: Bob Tinker is building a prototype for a service and decides that the Bitcoin Blockchain would be a valuable tool for it, and for the right reasons he doesn't want to trust a third party API. First step is to get a full node running. For anyone that has done this you know it takes FOREVER to sync (think days). STRIKE ONE! Next he wants to try out his magic service but wait he needs some Bitcoin, he won't need much, just a few cents to pay transaction fees. In the US he would probably find his way to Coinbase. After giving them access to his bank account, probably a copy of his ID, social security number, and waiting for days (and praying it doesn't get "cancelled"). STRIKE TWO!. At some point Bob Tinker is going to throw his hands up and move on. Not only did the ecosystem miss out on Bob's mind hours, he is probably going to have a negative association next time Bitcoin comes up or a colleague asks about it. I hear variations of this scenario all the time. A device such as 21's development kit solves all of this out of the box, day one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3m0kr9/21_inc_is_about_to_fuel_the_next_evolution_of/

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[smooth]

For anyone that has done this you know it takes FOREVER to sync (think days).

That information is completely out of date and misleading.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-blockchain-initial-sync-time-dramatically-reduced-headers-first-sync/

"With this new feature, new users can be fully synced with Bitcoin Core closer to 4 hours, as opposed to 2 days on an average internet connection"

Next he wants to try out his magic service but wait he needs some Bitcoin, he won't need much, just a few cents to pay transaction fees. In the US he would probably find his way to Coinbase. After giving them access to his bank account, probably a copy of his ID, social security number, and waiting for days (and praying it doesn't get "cancelled").

Secondly, if you want tiny amounts of bitcoin for experimenting with micropayemnts without dealing with an exchange you can buy a cheap USB miner for $50, not $400, but it really isn't clear you actually need Bitcoins to experiment because you can use testnet coins, or if the idea is to sell things online as a source of ("hundreds of dollars" or more of) income, you get other people to send the Bitcoins to you.

http://www.amazon.com/Bitmain-AntMiner-Bitcoin-Miner-Version/dp/B00TWK9208

[brg444]

For anyone that has done this you know it takes FOREVER to sync (think days).

That information is completely out of date and misleading.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-blockchain-initial-sync-time-dramatically-reduced-headers-first-sync/

"With this new feature, new users can be fully synced with Bitcoin Core closer to 4 hours, as opposed to 2 days on an average internet connection"

Next he wants to try out his magic service but wait he needs some Bitcoin, he won't need much, just a few cents to pay transaction fees. In the US he would probably find his way to Coinbase. After giving them access to his bank account, probably a copy of his ID, social security number, and waiting for days (and praying it doesn't get "cancelled").

Secondly, if you want tiny amounts of bitcoin for experimenting with micropayemnts without dealing with an exchange you can buy a cheap USB miner for $50, not $400, but it really isn't clear you actually need Bitcoins to experiment because you can use testnet coins, or if the idea is to sell things online as a source of ("hundreds of dollars" or more of) income, you get other people to send the Bitcoins to you.

http://www.amazon.com/Bitmain-AntMiner-Bitcoin-Miner-Version/dp/B00TWK9208

Again, all kind of stuff crypto-wiz and general Bitcoin vet is aware of but amateurs might not.

Now you're suggesting people gather all necessary parts for 125$ less than 21inc's device and set the miner up themselves (another obstacles for casual enthusiasts). After doing all of that they still don't have the whole software stack integrated and support that comes with 21inc's all-in-one package.

Don't you think you're underestimating a bit the value of a device that just does all of this "out of the box"? It seems to me you're really just trying to pick apart anything just for the sake of argument at this point.  

[Mikestang]

For anyone that has done this you know it takes FOREVER to sync (think days).

That information is completely out of date and misleading.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-blockchain-initial-sync-time-dramatically-reduced-headers-first-sync/

"With this new feature, new users can be fully synced with Bitcoin Core closer to 4 hours, as opposed to 2 days on an average internet connection"

My experience resyncing the block chain on core 0.11.0 three times now, it still takes about 4 days, not hours, to resync the chain from scratch.  This is on high speed cable internet in the US.

[johnyj]

The mining feature is not very useful, so I'm curious why they included it. My guess is that the mining feature is simply a trojan horse designed to get more people to look at their platform.

So, that means that their product will be an embedded computer running a proprietary transaction system that may or may not use off-chain bitcoins. I expect the mining feature to be dropped.

I guess the mining will provide the device some income through electricity, so that it can pay other AIs on the internet to get what it requires. I remember some years ago there is a talk about AI, once an AI become economically independent, they will spawn their children and these children can be "rich kids" if their parents are with lots of bitcoins

It seems AI only need maintenance and electricity, so they could simply buy electricity or repair service with bitcoin, thus become totally self sustainable

[smooth]

Don't you think you're underestimating a bit the value of a device that just does all of this "out of the box"?

I don't think I am underestimating that because you explained this as a device for "engineers and developers" and that's why the $400 price point doesn't matter. I've been around Bitcoin for years now and I've never seen engineers and developers struggle to build a suitable device (if they don't have one already) and get the Bitcoin software up and running.

I also don't agree with your $125 number.

RPi 2 kit (with case, PSU): $70
128GB sd card: $60
USB miner (optional): $50

Total: $130 without miner, $180 with miner

Net price premium: $220-270

Those are not "best possible prices" either those are just prices I found in 1-2 minutes of searching Amazon.

It seems to me you're really just trying to pick apart anything just for the sake of argument at this point.  

I'm being critical yes, but not because I have any agenda against 21. You might recall that I was among those who said their pervasive mining appliance story might ultimately make a lot of sense. The story on this product -- as told --  just just doesn't fit together from my perspective at all. It is all based on hype grounded on no real customer value at all from what I can see.

[Come-from-Beyond]

The story on this product -- as told --  just just doesn't fit together from my perspective at all. It is all based on hype grounded on no real customer value at all from what I can see.

100+ million investments into 21 and such the result do make a lot of people say "WTF!"

[Preclus]

Looks like there is some demand for this product...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3m25ef/the_21_bitcoin_computer_is_1_seller_in_amazons/?sort=new

Interesting ranking given that you can't actually buy it yet:

"This item will be released on November 16, 2015. Pre-order now. "

[S4VV4S]

Hmmmm.....
Yeah, I think I prefer the idea of a Bitcoin Toaster/Miner better

[Kprawn]

I guess if you had the money and you were planning to spend it on a computer, and the sales person showed you a computer that would make you money, you would go for the

option that "makes" you money. There are a lot of scrupulous sales people out there and very ignorant customers. In the beginning the returns might be $0.50 per day, but it

will quickly go down to $0.00 once this takes off or just through natural growth in hashing power. It would have been cool if they included a upgrade path for better ASIC's.   

[o0o0]

I guess if you had the money and you were planning to spend it on a computer, and the sales person showed you a computer that would make you money, you would go for the

option that "makes" you money. There are a lot of scrupulous sales people out there and very ignorant customers. In the beginning the returns might be $0.50 per day, but it

will quickly go down to $0.00 once this takes off or just through natural growth in hashing power. It would have been cool if they included a upgrade path for better ASIC's.   

Probably find in the future your laptops, tablets and computers will come with a pcie add in card that is from 21 inc and is integrated into the entire internet payment wise.

Companies won't need to imbed ads and all that other bs anymore... behind the scenes they'll be taking your money from what your embedded chips make. Probably api's that talk to you and ask if you want to direct your funds towards youtube or the like.

So while your computer is running and crunching the service you are running gets a portion of or your trickle of coin. Easy way to milk money from end users without annoying them with ads... they'll be paying money without realising.. this is one possibility I thought.

I still think this device is good value for early developers/adopters. I agree that you can buy the parts for cheaper and yes they could just sell the software but this is a complete ecosystem solution you are buying into... an appliance that makes you bitcoin enabled. Its not for mass adoption yet its for those techy enough to get in early. If you basically sell it for cost price people will mass order these with the intention they are miners... but usb miners do that. 21 inc I think isn't trying to make a cheap miner at present for people to buy and mine... NO they are trying to get bitcoin used more in utility and solutions. People are focusing too much on the mining part. Cross that part out for now ignore it... think of the device being a payment gateway through 21 inc and your ability to develop through a sdk path that 21 inc will be promoting and hyping.

You are getting a device you can develop a solution for which 21 inc are going to hyp. Next year we'll see developed solutions with these cropping up and I'm sure 21 inc will follow up with the consumer stuff that will enable interaction and mass adoption with this..... its only step 1.

[btcxyzzz]

option that "makes" you money. There are a lot of scrupulous sales people out there and very ignorant customers. In the beginning the returns might be $0.50 per day, but it

more like 0.05

[muyuu]

Looks like there is some demand for this product...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3m25ef/the_21_bitcoin_computer_is_1_seller_in_amazons/?sort=new

there will be always a little demand for everything, but it will end up at best like trezor, which isn't requested to much

Except Trezor, KeepKey, Ledger, etc do make sense.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Hey, guys. During my surfing the Internet I found this - http://astronomynow.com/2015/07/17/diminishing-solar-activity-may-bring-new-ice-age-by-2030/. If in 15 years Bitcoin miners are in every electronic device then we could use them for heating. Satoshi has been saying something similar.

[monsanto]

[World]

I would more like to see a POS terminal which accept mobile bitcoin payment, but that is also not necessary since anyone can setup a tablet with much lower cost

this will happen very soon and + ATMs
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/the-eagerly-awaited-raspberry-pi-display/

[knowhow]

We all or atleast 99% are into bitcoins to make easy income and generate extra or full income,making an equipment with some tools would be fair to they ask a fair price since there is a huge community always searching for some good investments.If they start to sell at 250 dollars i guess they would have a better result but in the end this project will die as xt version of bitcoin has.

[muyuu]

Make it US$ 50 to add a good SD card:

http://makezine.com/2015/09/24/the-9-computer-is-shipping-today/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10274005

You don't need an ASIC chip that will produce pennies and will never pay for itself.

[Abiky]

Make it US$ 50 to add a good SD card:

http://makezine.com/2015/09/24/the-9-computer-is-shipping-today/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10274005

You don't need an ASIC chip that will produce pennies and will never pay for itself.

This computer is very interesting. It is small and very cheap. Makes it the perfect companion for development (and maybe Bitcoin mining) I will look more into this 

[o0o0]

Make it US$ 50 to add a good SD card:

http://makezine.com/2015/09/24/the-9-computer-is-shipping-today/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10274005

You don't need an ASIC chip that will produce pennies and will never pay for itself.

Its not meant to pay for itself... I don't think it was ever marketed that way. They say the chip gives a trickle payment to develop with etc.

Honestly if you are a dev with the tech head nature you can setup your own and would do that. This solution is designed to be an ecosystem use device in the end. You're paying to get in on the ground floor of that... not to buy them in bulk and mine with.

I'm not sure people are understanding that part... everyone seems to latch onto the miner portion and criticise that... its almost like outside of mining and buying selling the coins nobody thinks bitcoin is useful for anything else... like buying products and services?