The 21 Bitcoin Computer

[BitUsher]

Just create another damn altcoin ....problem solved.

Transactions that are not in the blockchain can be manipulated , reversed erased.
Coins that are not in your personal wallet are not your coins.

Trusting a 3rd party with your coins and transactions reminds me of....banks.

Caching layers like the lightning network(and perhaps 21s micropayment server???) are not off the chain and can be made as secure as on the chain transactions. I recommend you read up on what makes them different.

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[brg444]

Nah, the raspberry pi type hardware makes a lot of sense.  The people they're targeting are likely already familiar with that sort of device (if not an rpi then a beaglebone black or a pcduino or etc.) and these devices make it pretty easy to just slap some other arbitrary hardware on there and have the device communicating with that hardware with very little effort.

At this point it isn't even clear if people are 'getting' bitcoin, or (as per my post) tokens-equivalent-to.  If they're not getting bitcoin then a payment portal to buy the tokens direct would be a lot simpler, cost effective for the end-user, etc.  If they are getting bitcoin indirectly (i.e. payout is to 21's pool) then that doesn't do much against mining centralization other than growing one of the existing players.  If they *are* getting bitcoin directly, then it's back to a whole bunch of microtransactions in blocks (as payout to the device owners) and a whole bunch of other mess.

Agreed on the node part, though.  As it is, I wish the hardware nodes available for commercial sale were more affordable.

And yes, this is commentary on this specific product

The payout is made to 21inc mining pool. The users are getting bitcoins, not tokens...

[brg444]

The mining chip in all of this still doesn't make any sense, though

Neither the rasberry Pi hardware... why not simply release a marketplace which allows decentralized micropayments that eventually hit the blockchain?

It only makes sense if we assume that the mining chip allows people to get bitcoin without the hassle of buying it and their objective is to grow and strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem by decentralizing mining and increasing node count. Remember alot of these investors are bitcoin bagholders too and are probably concerned about the centralization of mining and node drop off...

Just create another damn altcoin ....problem solved.

Transactions that are not in the blockchain can be manipulated , reversed erased.
Coins that are not in your personal wallet are not your coins.

Trusting a 3rd party with your coins and transactions reminds me of....banks.

The project is based around microtransactions. There's no reason you need full Bitcoin decentralization for these.

[kenw2]

This is pretty neat, but not $400 neat. 

[RGBKey]

That seems way expensive for a computer that doesn't really do that much, even though it has some cool features.

[BitUsher]

The project is based around microtransactions. There's no reason you need full Bitcoin decentralization for these.

I sure hope that they are providing decentralized microtransaction solutions with no extra fee. If they aren't than their product isn't attractive at all as there are already 100s of solutions that allow for free microtransactions with bitcoin.

[Jammalan the Prophet]

Just create another damn altcoin ....problem solved.

Transactions that are not in the blockchain can be manipulated , reversed erased.
Coins that are not in your personal wallet are not your coins.

Trusting a 3rd party with your coins and transactions reminds me of....banks.

Caching layers like the lightning network(and perhaps 21s micropayment server???) are not off the chain and can be made as secure as on the chain transactions. I recommend you read up on what makes them different.

The "lighting network" has two major flaws or let's say weaknesses  , time and spam.
With the current 1-8 mb block debate I wouldn't take a bet on it as a solution.

[odolvlobo]

The mining chip in all of this still doesn't make any sense, though

Neither the rasberry Pi hardware... why not simply release a marketplace which allows decentralized micropayments that eventually hit the blockchain?

It only makes sense if we assume that the mining chip allows people to get bitcoin without the hassle of buying it and their objective is to grow and strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem by decentralizing mining and increasing node count. Remember alot of these investors are bitcoin bagholders too and are probably concerned about the centralization of mining and node drop off...

That's the point.

The device as it stand is a pilot, eventually the mining chips will be embedded right into your computer's motherboard.

it is ridiculous to spend 1.77 BTC for a device that will generate less than 0.03 BTC per month (less electricity cost). It is far more effective and easier and faster and more convenient to buy $400 worth of BTC directly.

As for running a full node, there are much cheaper alternatives: http://raspnode.com/


As for a mining chip on my motherboard -- no thanks.

[BitUsher]

The "lighting network" has to major flaws of let's say weaknesses  , time and spam.
With the current 1-8 mb block debate I wouldn't take a bet on it as a solution.

Tx are instant with lightning network. Spam/DDOS attacks are taken care of by fees to lightning nodes.

Care to elaborate?

As for a mining chip on my motherboard -- no thanks.

Agreed. I throwaway device like a well ventilated router yes , I don't want any more heat near my motherboard and other expensive components.

[brg444]

The mining chip in all of this still doesn't make any sense, though

Neither the rasberry Pi hardware... why not simply release a marketplace which allows decentralized micropayments that eventually hit the blockchain?

It only makes sense if we assume that the mining chip allows people to get bitcoin without the hassle of buying it and their objective is to grow and strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem by decentralizing mining and increasing node count. Remember alot of these investors are bitcoin bagholders too and are probably concerned about the centralization of mining and node drop off...

That's the point.

The device as it stand is a pilot, eventually the mining chips will be embedded right into your computer's motherboard.

it is ridiculous to spend 1.77 BTC for a device that will generate less than 0.03 BTC per month (less electricity cost). It is far more effective to buy the BTC directly.

As for running a full node, there are much cheaper alternatives: http://raspnode.com/


As for a mining chip on my motherboard -- no thanks.

It isn't about breaking even by using the hashing power as a revenue model.

Some might ask why a device engineer would desire such a thing. Isn’t the purpose of bitcoin mining simply to get rich — or not, as the case may be? Well, at 21 we are less concerned with bitcoin as a financial instrument and more interested in bitcoin as a protocol — and particularly in the industrial uses of bitcoin enabled by embedded mining.

https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821

[RGBKey]

Yeah, I think the purpose of the mining chip is more to secure bitcoin than to turn a profit. My mistake.

[brg444]

Exactly, and more importantly: you likely won't have to pay for transactions fees.

And wait several hours to get your transaction included into a rare 21inc block?

They're currently mining 3-4 blocks a day. Enough to regularly settle millions of microtransactions on chain. Think of it like a payment channel maybe?

Moreover, if they succeed in their plan to embed mining chips into every internet connected devices I can imagine that could eventually considerably increase their share of the mining market.

[BitUsher]

It isn't about breaking even by using the hashing power as a revenue model.

Some might ask why a device engineer would desire such a thing. Isn’t the purpose of bitcoin mining simply to get rich — or not, as the case may be? Well, at 21 we are less concerned with bitcoin as a financial instrument and more interested in bitcoin as a protocol — and particularly in the industrial uses of bitcoin enabled by embedded mining.

https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821

That's all fine and well... but you are discussing the future and we are discussing this product and whether people should buy it or not.
There are better ways to be altruistic to support the bitcoin ecosystem if that is what you are implying.

[RGBKey]

It isn't about breaking even by using the hashing power as a revenue model.

Some might ask why a device engineer would desire such a thing. Isn’t the purpose of bitcoin mining simply to get rich — or not, as the case may be? Well, at 21 we are less concerned with bitcoin as a financial instrument and more interested in bitcoin as a protocol — and particularly in the industrial uses of bitcoin enabled by embedded mining.

https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821

That's all fine and well... but you are discussing the future and we are discussing this product and whether people should buy it or not.
There are better ways to be altruistic to support the bitcoin ecosystem if that is what you are implying.

Yes, full nodes are good too, but I still think this is a good way to support the network, albeit an expensive one.

[brg444]

It isn't about breaking even by using the hashing power as a revenue model.

Some might ask why a device engineer would desire such a thing. Isn’t the purpose of bitcoin mining simply to get rich — or not, as the case may be? Well, at 21 we are less concerned with bitcoin as a financial instrument and more interested in bitcoin as a protocol — and particularly in the industrial uses of bitcoin enabled by embedded mining.

https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821

That's all fine and well... but you are discussing the future and we are discussing this product and whether people should buy it or not.
There are better ways to be altruistic to support the bitcoin ecosystem if that is what you are implying.

Yes, full nodes are good too, but I still think this is a good way to support the network, albeit an expensive one.

That's not the point, if you have read the article and can't see how a whole range of engineers and developers would be interested in the capacities of such a setup then there's really not much I can do to help you figure it out.

If your question is whether random joe and his buddies should be buying this device then obviously the answer is no.

IT IS NOT A CONSUMER DEVICE

[BitUsher]

Yes, full nodes are good too, but I still think this is a good way to support the network, albeit an expensive one.

Only if these miners mined on a p2p pool or solo-mined and encouraged decentralization of mining. It seems to be that it will merely grow one of the large mining pools however and one of the pools that people cannot direct their hashing power away from unlike some of the others.

If you simply wanted to hash to support the network you would be better off buying an s7 and mining yourself on p2p pool and possibly breaking even and turning a profit (provided cheap electricity) rather than only making back 20% of your investment (assuming free electric with 21)

That's not the point, if you have read the article and can't see how a whole range of engineers and developers would be interested in the capacities of such a setup then there's really not much I can do to help you figure it out.

If your question is whether random joe and his buddies should be buying this device then obviously the answer is no.

IT IS NOT A CONSUMER DEVICE

The point is I don't see much use for this device for developers either. We all own rasberry pi's and can code and tinker without this. Perhaps their is some use for this device... but they are doing a horrible job of clarifying it.

[RGBKey]

Yes, full nodes are good too, but I still think this is a good way to support the network, albeit an expensive one.

Only if these miners mined on a p2p pool or solo-mined and encouraged decentralization of mining. It seems to be that it will merely grow one of the large mining pools however and one of the pools that people cannot direct their hashing power away from unlike some of the others.

If you simply wanted to hash to support the network you would be better off buying an s7 and mining yourself on p2p pool and possibly breaking even and turning a profit (provided cheap electricity) rather than only making back 20% of your investment (assuming free electric with 21)

I never said it was effectively helping the network. But it is helping. Not very well, but helping.

[BitUsher]

I never said it was effectively helping the network. But it is helping. Not very well, but helping.

Sure ... greater hash power makes bitcoin more secure. I'm just suggesting you already have options that both help bitcoin and yourself more.

[HostFat]

http://samuelrpatterson.com/breakdown-of-hardware-costs-for-new-21-inc-bitcoin-computer/

[Tobo]

I wonder where the targeted markets and customers are for this product. So far, I have seen here people said it was an interesting product, but no one said that he would buy one. It seems everyone is hoping someone else but himself will buy it.