Bitcoinica liquidator wants to hear from users

[dancingnancy]

Here's my take. Either Mark does everything in his power to accelerate this process or remove himself from the The Bitcoin Foundation board. As I read it now, Mt Gox can stonewall this process ad infinitum, meanwhile utilizing the funds for day-to-day operations, something I've previously claimed is happening. Do you honestly believe a bank wouldn't touch a million dollars, e.g., sitting in some liquidation account while litigation was in process? Using the same example, if that same million was no longer readily available, said bank would go into stall mode if it looked like there's a chance that it's about to be transferred out.

The funds were place with Mt Gox in good faith and being the most safest place to place them. Sadly, the latter is being proven true, for it's now so safe, nobody can touch it.

Maybe I'm off-base here, yet something to think about.

~Bruno K~

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.  Why should he do anything from his POV?  He is just sitting in everyone else's money and can do what he pleases with it in the meantime.  It isn't sounding like from anything I have heard that he has to do anything else.  Wasn't Mr. Seale supposed to forward this process along somehow?  More or less sounds like everyone is happy to do nothing.

[realnowhereman]

I'm not happy that my money is not under my control; but provided it is now safe, and provided there is reasonable expectation that the legal stuff will eventually be sorted out and I'll get my coins back, then I can live with a delay.

What I would like to hear from liquidators/mt.gox is that that expectation is reasonable.  Have Mt.Gox got our money?  How much of our money have they got and how much has been lost?  It's still not clear to me what percentage of my coins are being held by a trustworthy participant.  (Yeah, yeah, I know -- "0" is the answer).

[dancingnancy]

What I would like to hear from liquidators/mt.gox is that that expectation is reasonable.  Have Mt.Gox got our money?  How much of our money have they got and how much has been lost?  It's still not clear to me what percentage of my coins are being held by a trustworthy participant.  (Yeah, yeah, I know -- "0" is the answer).

Seems like it has been around 8 months since this all originally went down.  Don't be so demanding.. 

:/

[repentance]

I'm not happy that my money is not under my control; but provided it is now safe, and provided there is reasonable expectation that the legal stuff will eventually be sorted out and I'll get my coins back, then I can live with a delay.

What I would like to hear from liquidators/mt.gox is that that expectation is reasonable.  Have Mt.Gox got our money?  How much of our money have they got and how much has been lost?  It's still not clear to me what percentage of my coins are being held by a trustworthy participant.  (Yeah, yeah, I know -- "0" is the answer).

The liquidator estimated that the combined value of BTC and USD in the Bitcoinica MtGox account/s was $500,000 based on the information with which he'd been provided and he was waiting for MtGox to confirm that - but that estimate was based on BTC being worth USD 11.

There was $85,181 in Bitcoinica's bank accounts and there should be no impediment to the liquidator obtaining control over those funds.

According to the first report, the value of Bitcoin claims was roughly five times that of USD claims.  At today's rates, the 65,057 BTC claimed are now worth almost $2 million, compared to the $765,000 they were worth in November.

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

Obviously, it matters a lot whether the majority of remaining Bitcoinica funds held on MtGox are held as BTC or USD - and that information is currently unavailable.

As pointed out by MPOE-PR, MtGox could actually refuse to acknowledge the authority of the NZ liquidator and choose instead to acknowledge the authority of the California court if the Cartmell plaintiffs prevail and seek domestication in Japan of the California court's order (which you can almost guarantee will happen if MtGox still holds Bitcoinica's funds when the California action is decided).

[realnowhereman]

The liquidator estimated that the combined value of BTC and USD in the Bitcoinica MtGox account/s was $500,000 based on the information with which he'd been provided and he was waiting for MtGox to confirm that - but that estimate was based on BTC being worth USD 11.

There was $85,181 in Bitcoinica's bank accounts and there should be no impediment to the liquidator obtaining control over those funds.

According to the first report, the value of Bitcoin claims was roughly five times that of USD claims.  At today's rates, the 65,057 BTC claimed are now worth almost $2 million, compared to the $765,000 they were worth in November.

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

Obviously, it matters a lot whether the majority of remaining Bitcoinica funds held on MtGox are held as BTC or USD - and that information is currently unavailable.

As pointed out by MPOE-PR, MtGox could actually refuse to acknowledge the authority of the NZ liquidator and choose instead to acknowledge the authority of the California court if the Cartmell plaintiffs prevail and seek domestication in Japan of the California court's order (which you can almost guarantee will happen if MtGox still holds Bitcoinica's funds when the California action is decided).

Thank you for the extremely clear explanation.  You are a scholar and a gentleman.

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Let me back-of-the-envelope out loud then using your figures.  Current holdings are:

Code:

Claimed - stolen + returned BTC = 65027 BTC - 40000BTC + 20000 BTC = 45027 BTC
Claimed - stolen + returned USD = 765000/5 USD + (returned-stolen) =  153000 + 60000 = 213000 USD

Total holdings in USD today = (BTC@28.5) 1,283,269.5 + 213000 = 1,496,269.5
Total claims in USD today = (BTC@28.5) 1,853,269.5 + 153000 = 2,006,269.5
Deficit = 2,006,269.5 - 1,496,269.5 = 510,000 USD
Estimated return if funds were cleared today = 74.5796%

Double GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I don't suppose there is any way to persuade the liquidators to use the 60,000 USD that they do control to buy BTC to prevent any further losses from exchange rate changes?

[naima53]

The liquidator estimated that the combined value of BTC and USD in the Bitcoinica MtGox account/s was $500,000 based on the information with which he'd been provided and he was waiting for MtGox to confirm that - but that estimate was based on BTC being worth USD 11.

There was $85,181 in Bitcoinica's bank accounts and there should be no impediment to the liquidator obtaining control over those funds.

According to the first report, the value of Bitcoin claims was roughly five times that of USD claims.  At today's rates, the 65,057 BTC claimed are now worth almost $2 million, compared to the $765,000 they were worth in November.

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

Obviously, it matters a lot whether the majority of remaining Bitcoinica funds held on MtGox are held as BTC or USD - and that information is currently unavailable.

As pointed out by MPOE-PR, MtGox could actually refuse to acknowledge the authority of the NZ liquidator and choose instead to acknowledge the authority of the California court if the Cartmell plaintiffs prevail and seek domestication in Japan of the California court's order (which you can almost guarantee will happen if MtGox still holds Bitcoinica's funds when the California action is decided).

Thank you for the extremely clear explanation.  You are a scholar and a gentleman.

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Let me back-of-the-envelope out loud then using your figures.  Current holdings are:

Code:

Claimed - stolen + returned BTC = 65027 BTC - 40000BTC + 20000 BTC = 45027 BTC
Claimed - stolen + returned USD = 765000/5 USD + (returned-stolen) =  153000 + 60000 = 213000 USD

Total holdings in USD today = (BTC@28.5) 1,283,269.5 + 213000 = 1,496,269.5
Total claims in USD today = (BTC@28.5) 1,853,269.5 + 153000 = 2,006,269.5
Deficit = 2,006,269.5 - 1,496,269.5 = 510,000 USD
Estimated return if funds were cleared today = 74.5796%

Double GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I don't suppose there is any way to persuade the liquidators to use the 60,000 USD that they do control to buy BTC to prevent any further losses from exchange rate changes?

I think it's very important question for the authorities (for world government). They will not allow that would be the first lawsuit to bitcoin was a "failure." They will spend $ 1M, $ 2M, $ 10M, but the price bitcoin grow and the court will successfully resolved in favor of the creditors (claimants) on the price level is above 50.
It's not as easy as you think. IMHO  What would have been good news. And apparently there was another article in forbes I do not worry about it. But I want that to rush things (maybe I'm wrong).
[stop sarcasm]

[nrd525]

Can the original owners decide that they have a surplus and stop the liquidation?  Or is it too late for that?

[Vod]

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

You know that ZhouTong is reading this and hoping daily that no one gets smart and comes after him for the other 20k btc.  It's worth $600k now.

[bitcoinBull]

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

You know that ZhouTong is reading this and hoping daily that no one gets smart and comes after him for the other 20k btc.  It's worth $600k now.

Yeah, pretty sure he's responsible. He did it the moment he found out that the source code was leaked (pissed him off, plus gave him plausible deniability).

I don't think he's worried though. Now, if someone goes after Trendon Shavers (and then Sam Theofanopoulos aka HaskKing), then he would start worrying.

BTW, has anyone contacted MtGox about their stance on the bitcoinica funds?

[dancingnancy]

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

You know that ZhouTong is reading this and hoping daily that no one gets smart and comes after him for the other 20k btc.  It's worth $600k now.

Yeah, pretty sure he's responsible. He did it the moment he found out that the source code was leaked (pissed him off, plus gave him plausible deniability).

I don't think he's worried though. Now, if someone goes after Trendon Shavers (and then Sam Theofanopoulos aka HaskKing), then he would start worrying.

BTW, has anyone contacted MtGox about their stance on the bitcoinica funds?

No, although repentance above suggested going on IRC.. which I never do - not that he/they would likely comment anyway.  Much easier to sit on all our coins.

[repentance]

The liquidator should be informed about the new deal between CoinLab and MtGox. 

Both Tihan and Roger Ver are investors in CoinLab and if Bitcoinica's MtGox account is transferred to CoinLab, the funds will be in the US and therefore it will be very easy for the Cartmell plaintiffs to pursue those funds should they prevail in the California lawsuit.

Zhou's role in the downfall of Bitcoinica will probably never be fully examined.  He's been protected throughout this whole clusterfuck to a ridiculous extent when his actions after the Intersango guys joined Bitcoinica deserve intense scrutiny.  Given strong indications for him being involved in the MtGox intrusion, it's reasonable to examine whether he was connected in any way to the Rackspace intrusion too.  It's rather galling that he's sitting on $70,000 worth of NameTerrific shares while average Bitcoinica users may still end up receiving no refund and he's not even named as one of the defendants in the Cartmell lawsuit despite the evidence linking him to the MtGox intrusion. 

[phantomcircuit]

The liquidator should be informed about the new deal between CoinLab and MtGox. 

Both Tihan and Roger Ver are investors in CoinLab and if Bitcoinica's MtGox account is transferred to CoinLab, the funds will be in the US and therefore it will be very easy for the Cartmell plaintiffs to pursue those funds should they prevail in the California lawsuit.

It is my understanding (this still needs to be verified with MtGox) that only accounts held by US or Canadian persons (including corporations and other legal entities) will be transfered to ConLab .. er I mean CoinLab.

To the best of my knowledge this would not include any of the accounts related to Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation).

[repentance]

To the best of my knowledge this would not include any of the accounts related to Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation).

I remember a discussion on here about how Zhou was able to open a MtGox account given that he was under 18 and I'm pretty sure his response was that it was because it was a business account.  When Bitcoinica first started, it was operated under the umbrella of Xway Labs, which was set up in Delaware.  Was a new MtGox account created for Bitcoinica when Bitcoinica LP was formed or appropriate paperwork provided to MtGox to establish that Bitcoinica was no longer "located" in the US?

[dancingnancy]

To the best of my knowledge this would not include any of the accounts related to Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation).

I remember a discussion on here about how Zhou was able to open a MtGox account given that he was under 18

Forgot about all that..

[Koekiemonster]

I emailed them 4 days ago for an update but no response yet.

[dancingnancy]

I emailed them 4 days ago for an update but no response yet.

I would be happy with an update. thinking about having my lawyer send them a letter :/

Send it to Mt. Gox?  Doesn't sound like you will get anywhere with the liquidators.  I would be interested to hear any response from Gox on this matter.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Let me see if I have this correct. The liquidated funds are now worth more now than when they were first stored at Mt. Gox, and the the owner of Mt. Gox is a member of TBF.

The funds were stored at Mt. Gox in good faith, yet...

From this day forward, I demand from Mt. Gox prove that these funds have not been touched.

Is there any way an audit can be done in regard to this situation? I'm not versed in how this can be accomplished, but I'm sure others here have an idea.

The way I'm looking at it is that if all the funds were released today, everybody would get back about what they lost, and maybe more.

We have no proof that Mt. Gox is not using said funds, so until that proof is given, I'm going on record and stating that they are floating (or whatever the proper term is) the funds for their everyday operation.

Please forgive me, all and MG, for I don't have the red-ass toward them, but I am sticking it up their ass on this one issue alone.

~Bruno K~

[disclaimer201]

Since hardly anyone has the ability to sue Gox, the only thing left to do is to write Gox and attack their reputation. The issue of them holding our funds hostage doesn't seem to really bother anyone enough to make a fuzz about it. Perhaps we should start asking a little louder?

[dancingnancy]

We have no proof that Mt. Gox is not using said funds, so until that proof is given, I'm going on record and stating that they are floating (or whatever the proper term is) the funds for their everyday operation.



~Bruno K~

Umm.. yeah - that is most likely exactly what they are doing.  Can't say a god damned word about it either publicly.  Loaning out BTC is a pretty lucrative business right now.

[Koekiemonster]

Still no reply, sent out another e-mail yesterday.

Anyone else had any contact?