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memvola
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November 30, 2012, 01:22:45 PM |
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Besides, why the hell are we to accept getting bossed around by the USA all the time? USA is imposing all kinds of regulations internationally. It's their algorithm. US government institutions (NIST and NSA) invented it and own it. It is not common property though it is prevalent enough in the western world that one might think so. I'm pretty sure the US can regulate what people can do with it's own property. Take a look at the TOS of pretty much any piece of software employing any US proprietary cryptographic algorithms and you will find an item excluding usage rights of the software for citizens of certain countries like Cuba and Iran. I know no one reads these things, but it's in there. You're right, it's pretty much theirs. I was merely complaining about the bossy attitude and gave the example of overreaching regulations. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was talking about the cryptographic algorithms Bitcoin is using. My argument was that, advocating Bitcoin use in Iran does not equate to advocating the usage of SHA in Iran. Iranians can and do use it indirectly, and there is nothing illegal about it. As I said though, if this is how things shall develop, we should get rid of SHA before it's too late. What if the USA made it illegal to relay cryptographic traffic that is initiated from sanctioned countries? |
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It is a common myth that Bitcoin is ruled by a majority of miners. This is not true. Bitcoin miners "vote" on the ordering of transactions, but that's all they do. They can't vote to change the network rules.
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Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
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Lethn
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November 30, 2012, 01:25:04 PM |
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As far as I'm concerned if it's not spam, virus' or malware they're promoting no one should be banned for anything they say, to ban someone for anything else just makes you look like a cunt no matter how you try to word it. I do think that some of you Bitcoin guys are being a bit too aggressive in promoting the idea of Bitcoin though, don't go posting links etc. in places unless people ask for it.
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MatthewLM
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November 30, 2012, 01:30:52 PM |
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jgarzik is quite right. The SHA-256 algorithm is property of the US and export regulations for SHA-256 expressively forbid exporting the algorithm or products based on the algorithm to Iran.
What if you are not a USA citizen? Will the US government still drone bomb you, if you provide SHA256 to Iranian citizens? |
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greyhawk
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November 30, 2012, 01:31:10 PM |
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As I said though, if this is how things shall develop, we should get rid of SHA before it's too late. What if the USA made it illegal to relay cryptographic traffic that is initiated from sanctioned countries?
As I said in my edit, I totally concur. It's a flaw in the protocol. Wanna shut down Bitcoin without just declaring Bitcoin itself illegal (which you really can't easily due to jurisdictional issues)? Just redefine usage rights for SHA-256. Can be done from today to tomorrow. Their algorithm, their right to decide what happens with it. "Yeah, about SHA-256. We don't really want that to be used for crypto-currencies. Toodles". Bam, instantly every mining instance or mining-rig or whatever you have is breaking the usage license and thus illegal. Which would shut down Bitcoin at least until a new cryptocore is implemented. Also it would totally suck for ASIC users. jgarzik is quite right. The SHA-256 algorithm is property of the US and export regulations for SHA-256 expressively forbid exporting the algorithm or products based on the algorithm to Iran.
What if you are not a USA citizen? Will the US government still drone bomb you, if you provide SHA256 to Iranian citizens? Watch out for any black helicopters.  |
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Technomage (OP)
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November 30, 2012, 01:40:00 PM |
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I read the pastebin. You should not lose the respect for a man over something like this.
I don't think jgarzik went beserk. He kicked a couple of users off the channel, no big deal.
Jgarzik and Satoshi have good points. If you want to catch an elephant, you don't start by poking forks into it's eye. The Satoshi quote was from 2010. It should have no relevance anymore. Bitcoin is a currency with properties that will cause it to have more popularity in countries that have financial restrictions. Iran is one of them. I believe that is exactly what Bitcoin is meant for. Bitcoin is currently essentially useless for the regular joe in Western countries. You read it correctly, totally useless. In countries such as Iran or Argentina, it's far from useless. It's potentially a saviour. The post I wrote and the conclusion of "losing respect" was an understatement. Bitcoin is the currency of the resistance and I find it problematic that the core dev team has people that will use their authority to silence people who simply want to make Bitcoin available to everyone in the world, which is its purpose basically. By the way, nothing jeremias said in that chat log is encouraging illegal activity. Nothing at all. The discussion even turned to on topic issues such as translating Bitcoin-Qt to Farsi, and that was the final straw for jgarzik. For fucks sake. |
Denarium closing sale discounts now up to 43%! Check out our products from here! |
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Boussac
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e-ducat.fr
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November 30, 2012, 01:42:33 PM |
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jgarzik is quite right. The SHA-256 algorithm is property of the US and export regulations for SHA-256 expressively forbid exporting the algorithm or products based on the algorithm to Iran.
What if you are not a USA citizen? Will the US government still drone bomb you, if you provide SHA256 to Iranian citizens? It's silly to bring ammunitions to all the opponents of bitcoin by drawing attention to Iran,a state known for performing significantly more terrorist activities than your average government. It's a good way to raise awareness of bitcoin in a very bad light. The timing is just wrong because bitcoin is not widespread enough today to afford this kind of freedom. Jeff Garzick was right in banning idiotic propositions. Timing is everything. |
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Technomage (OP)
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November 30, 2012, 01:44:53 PM |
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It seems like it was a good idea to start a discussion on this. We have a stronger internal conflict on this issue than I realized at first. He actually has defenders which I find preposterous.
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Denarium closing sale discounts now up to 43%! Check out our products from here! |
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Herodes
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November 30, 2012, 01:46:48 PM |
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Timing is everything.
+1 for wisdom |
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Polvos
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November 30, 2012, 01:46:53 PM |
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jgarzik is quite right. The SHA-256 algorithm is property of the US and export regulations for SHA-256 expressively forbid exporting the algorithm or products based on the algorithm to Iran.
What if you are not a USA citizen? Will the US government still drone bomb you, if you provide SHA256 to Iranian citizens? The answer is simple. They kidnap you, put yourself in a plane to Cuba and then dronebomb you in Guantanamo. All legal, but expensive. |
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EhVedadoOAnonimato
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November 30, 2012, 01:50:23 PM |
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Bitcoin is currently essentially useless for the regular joe in Western countries. You read it correctly, totally useless.
I disagree. Even in less totalitarian places, Bitcoin can help people acquire some financial privacy and protection against inflation. But of course, the more totalitarian the place, the more useful it gets. The post I wrote and the conclusion of "losing respect" was an understatement. Bitcoin is the currency of the resistance and I find it problematic that the core dev team has people that will use their authority to silence people who simply want to make Bitcoin available to everyone in the world, which is its purpose basically.
+1 |
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memvola
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November 30, 2012, 01:51:47 PM |
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Iran,a state known for performing significantly more terrorist activities than your average government.
It's one thing to silence people because you are afraid of the United States. It's another to actually defend their excuses to take away freedom from those that actually need it. Why not also advocate banning access to TOR from within Iran? They are using cryptography after all... Jesus... |
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Come-from-Beyond
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Newbie
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November 30, 2012, 01:54:28 PM |
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Timing is everything.
+1 for wisdom -1 for cowardice |
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imanikin
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November 30, 2012, 02:00:53 PM |
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Actually no. You can create currency all you like. Now how you use that currency, that is the tricky part where you can be shut down.
Well, if it's just how you use it, where are jgarzik calls to shut down or ban even just verbally a number of B laundering sites there are in this world, or SR, or a number of Bitcoin "services" that have since defrauded their customers, or whatever in the B world that is expressly forbidden by US law? If you believe that the SHA-256 "technology" has not already been exported to every corner of the world, you probably also believe that the US citizens all drive the speed limit on their roadways too... (A long-standing public display of hypocrisy and stupidity on a massive, national scale, among many other examples...) We all know how corrupt, self-serving and hypocritical the laws are in every country, and this one is no exception, except to jgarzik and the like for their own self-serving and hypocritical reasons... |
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memvola
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November 30, 2012, 02:13:26 PM |
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Timing is everything.
+1 for wisdom -1 for cowardice Actually -1 for wisdom as well. So what's the plan? Limit our use of Bitcoin to conform with the U.S. regulations until it's widespread enough, and then boom, we can use it for penetrating through sanctions as well and they can't do anything about it, since it's got big enough! You are not fooling anyone. Everyone knows what Bitcoin is and what it can be used for. It will never get widespread enough to suddenly intimidate regulators. They will either allow it to get bigger in peace or not. It really doesn't matter whether you "give them reasons". There are always reasons. It's a matter of how much they are intimidated by the concept and whether there is something they can do about it. |
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greyhawk
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November 30, 2012, 02:15:03 PM |
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Well, if it's just how you use it, where are jgarzik calls to shut down or ban even just verbally a number of B laundering sites there are in this world, or SR, or a number of Bitcoin "services" that have since defrauded their customers, or whatever in the B world that is expressly forbidden by US law?
Running a bitcoin laundry or SR or a ponzi scheme does not usually get you shipped off to Guantanamo.  |
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paulie_w
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November 30, 2012, 02:18:44 PM |
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Maybe Jeff had to react that way to protect the foundation legally. If, so, this shows that a foundation wasn't a good idea to begin with. Maybe they should clarify in writing that #bitcoin-dev belongs to the foundation, which belongs to the USA.
this. |
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Herodes
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November 30, 2012, 02:19:13 PM |
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Timing is everything.
+1 for wisdom -1 for cowardice Let me use an analogy. If you start doing mma, will you gradually go the ranks, and then when you're ready, challenge the best fighter, or will you as a newbie challenge the world champ immediately ? |
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greyhawk
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November 30, 2012, 02:23:43 PM |
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Timing is everything.
+1 for wisdom -1 for cowardice Let me use an analogy. If you start doing mma, will you gradually go the ranks, and then when you're ready, challenge the best fighter, or will you as a newbie challenge the world champ immediately ? It depends on if your name is Bob Sapp.  |
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casascius
Mike Caldwell
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The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
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November 30, 2012, 02:24:47 PM |
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I am going to have to agree with jgarzik here.
We as a community are asking for swift trouble from US govt bullies if we are actively marketing Bitcoin to Iran. It has nothing to do with whether it's legal, moral, ethical or not. We are lucky they have left this project alone thus far. Doing anything that looks like marketing to Iran will change that quickly.
Also, bitcoin-dev is a publicly logged channel. If I am a Bitcoin developer on a publicly logged chat channel where my actions could be scrutinized by the media and the world and someone wants to discuss Iran, kicking and banning in a publicly visible manner would be prudent. That is truly not a good place to talk about that subject.
I sure as hell would not want to discuss bringing Bitcoin to Iran in any place where my discussion was being logged and published.
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Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable. I never believe them. If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins. I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion. Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice. Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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miscreanity
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November 30, 2012, 02:25:21 PM |
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Usage of Bitcoin occurs regardless of state sanctions. There are some vulnerable points to the Bitcoin system, notable the exchanges and developers.
Allowing potentially 'illegal' activities is different from actively promoting them. The latter paints a bright red bullseye on Bitcoin's soft targets.
If you start 3D printing assault rifles, flaunting the fact will get you noticed by the kind of people you're defending yourself against in the first place. This is similar in that there's only an arbitrary decree of illegality, but the power behind that stance is overwhelming and fickle.
It's unwise to deliberately antagonize; we are not big enough to walk with impunity yet.
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