jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf?

[casascius]

Mike, Farsi is spoken natively in (according to Wikipedia) Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Bahrain, and Azerbaijan.

I don't understand why you're defending the ban so hard.

It's also spoken here in the US.  If you don't understand why I support Jeff's action by now (which I understand to be a timeout, not permanent), no amount of explanation will change that.

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[FreeMoney]

What options do we have when governments attack the dev team? The fact that someone in the team is afraid is a genuine problem.

They wouldn't need to "attack" them. I'm more and more convinced that just a polite request would be enough for Garzik to implement the perfect surveillance tool for the state to link addresses to people and monitor every flow of coins. Hell, he's trying to implement it right now, in anticipation.

Sad.

You would run that code?

If what you are accusing him of was even possible most of us wouldn't be here.

[Steve]

This looks more like monopoly money than federal reserve notes to me.

Agreed on the colored notes, but definitely not on the coins.

When I first happened across the liberty dollar (long before Bitcoin...early 2000s, maybe even late 90s), I recall thinking his tactics were a somewhat deceptive.  He would advocate things like trying to use liberty dollars in a restaurant to pay a bill without first informing the waiter what it actually was.  That and the imagery on the coins that made them look official (and the use of $ and "Trust in God") turned me off.  Not to mention that the silver coins were priced way above the spot price (almost double if I recall).

All of this could have been just due to a lack of good judgement on his part, but I can certainly see the case against him.  But the government's press release after the conviction was pretty chilling...it went way beyond the matter of counterfeiting and fraud.

[Bitcoin Oz]

The answer is easy. Fork a bitcoin clone into using a different algorythm. Or use litecoin or devcoin in iran

Also wtf ?

btw trying to go "legit" is what killed glbse.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

What options do we have when governments attack the dev team? The fact that someone in the team is afraid is a genuine problem.

Yep, this might be a problem.

If the core devs weren't already known, i would suggest them going the I2P-way. Some of I2P anonymous network devs are known only under psudonyms and are hiding behind the network they created. We could have the same kind of devs when it comes to Bitcoin.

Many developers of I2P are known only under pseudonyms. While the previous main developer, jrandom, is currently on hiatus, others, such as zzz and Complication have continued to lead development efforts, and are assisted by numerous contributors.[1]

Perhaps, If for some reason current devs would not want (or could not) to maintain Bitcoin anymore, then some new, anonymous devs could take over, I2P - style.

[Rudd-O]

This looks more like monopoly money than federal reserve notes to me.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ef/Liberty_Dollar.jpeg

Agreed on the colored notes, but definitely not on the coins.

The coins look like U.S. government money as much as your coins do, Casascius.

Let's hope you don't become the next von NotHaus.  Are you ready to spend some time in the big house?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

After reading this discussion, my conclusion is that it totally brings down to one thing: FEAR.

It is also clear that after this topic and "Iranians start to use Bitcoin" article on Buisnessweek, there is no stopping Iranians from using Bitcoin, and hundereds of pages of posts will only make it worse by spreading the topic further into the Interwebz.

So those of you (including some devs) who are afraid of US government should leave the boat now, while the matter has not become "very hot" yet, and return later (or not) under anonymous identities using networks such as TOR, I2P and Freenet. And it is highly probable that this will become hot.

[Polvos]

Someone stated smartly in THE Bitcoin Foundation thread that we need to separate the Bitcoin project from the USA.

Now we have USA devs, working in a Washington based foundation and forums with USA moderators fearing USA laws censoring worldwide users.

Fuck, I need a hamburguer now    

[Bitcoin Oz]

This looks more like monopoly money than federal reserve notes to me.

Agreed on the colored notes, but definitely not on the coins.

The coins look like U.S. government money as much as your coins do, Casascius.

Let's hope you don't become the next von NotHaus.  Are you ready to spend some time in the big house?

Thats what I was thuinking. Physical bitcoins are more analogous to liberty dollars...

[Technomage]

Someone stated smartly in THE Bitcoin Foundation thread that we need to separate de Bitcoin project from the USA.

Now we have USA devs, working in a Washington based foundation and forums with USA moderators fearing USA laws censoring worldwide users.

Fuck, I need a hamburguer now    

I have to say that I'm starting to agree with this. If the people in the US are too afraid of the US government, we have a problem. I'm not saying they shouldn't be afraid. Maybe they do need to be afraid. What I'm saying is that maybe we need to decentralize a little more. Having so many "major players" of Bitcoin in the US is not necessarily a very good thing.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Someone stated smartly in THE Bitcoin Foundation thread that we need to separate the Bitcoin project from the USA.
Now we have USA devs, working in a Washington based foundation and forums with USA moderators fearing USA laws censoring worldwide users.

+1000

And to say more, by calling it *THE* Bitcoin Foundation they only made it worse, because it's like saying "Hey, we are the CENTRAL Bitcoin Authority !". Not very smart if you don't want to be first target in case of "some" government decides that Bitcoin is illegal after all.

[Gabi]

+1 from me too

An USA based foundation, the top of the idiocy

[repentance]

I have to say that I'm starting to agree with this. If the people in the US are too afraid of the US government, we have a problem. I'm not saying they shouldn't be afraid. Maybe they do need to be afraid. What I'm saying is that maybe we need to decentralize a little more. Having so many "major players" of Bitcoin in the US is not necessarily a very good thing.

It's not just the US which is enforcing sanctions against Iran - the UK and the EU are as well and it's likely that other nations/economic co-operation organisations will follow.  The possibility of Iran becoming the new Cuba is not remote and "major players" are vulnerable, both as businesses and as individuals, if that happens and they fail to enforce the sanctions.

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

Someone stated smartly in THE Bitcoin Foundation thread that we need to separate de Bitcoin project from the USA.

Now we have USA devs, working in a Washington based foundation and forums with USA moderators fearing USA laws censoring worldwide users.

Fuck, I need a hamburguer now    

I have to say that I'm starting to agree with this. If the people in the US are too afraid of the US government, we have a problem. I'm not saying they shouldn't be afraid. Maybe they do need to be afraid. What I'm saying is that maybe we need to decentralize a little more. Having so many "major players" of Bitcoin in the US is not necessarily a very good thing.

Hey,

No offense, but I'm the one on the front line here and when the US Gov't goes after Bitcoin I'll be one of the first people put in jail.

I agree that we need to decentralize more, and thats why I've created a contingency plan for myself and my team.

Someone stated smartly in THE Bitcoin Foundation thread that we need to separate the Bitcoin project from the USA.
Now we have USA devs, working in a Washington based foundation and forums with USA moderators fearing USA laws censoring worldwide users.

+1000

And to say more, by calling it *THE* Bitcoin Foundation they only made it worse, because it's like saying "Hey, we are the CENTRAL Bitcoin Authority !". Not very smart if you don't want to be first target in case of "some" government decides that Bitcoin is illegal after all.

Oh dear, I must have said this 15 times. Its NOT called The Bitcoin Foundation. It's simply Bitcoin Foundation. The 'the' is only used when referencing this specific foundation.

In fact, you can create your own foundation. I know people who are in the process of doing so.

This foundation was simply created to fund Bitcoin projects and for Bitcoin companies to allocate their resources for a shared and common goal.

I know we all hate government and central authority, but I must have said this 15 times, this foundation has no teeth nor power to change Bitcoin.

Anyone who understands Bitcoin should understand that. I would assume you do.

Bitcoin is not something that can be made 'illegal'. It's a protocol and a standard, like VOIP or HTTP. You can't shut down BitTorrent for the same reasons, and believe me they have tried. (Offtopic: GREAT article about how the 1/3 of BitTorrent downloads are legal and how BT is working with the music industry http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/25/bittorrent-matt-mason-interview/)

What would the government do? Ban cryptography? If they ban Bitcoin, we can simply change the nane. They can't ban math.

However, they can choke us by shutting down companies like BitInstant, which is why I've created my own contingency plan to make sure this does not happen.

-Charlie

+1 from me too

An USA based foundation, the top of the idiocy

While I agree the USA sucks in terms of regulatory pressure (I know firsthand as my office is based in NYC) we need to be on the frontlines and take themhead on

[Littleshop]

This looks more like monopoly money than federal reserve notes to me.

Agreed on the colored notes, but definitely not on the coins.

The coins look like U.S. government money as much as your coins do, Casascius.

Let's hope you don't become the next von NotHaus.  Are you ready to spend some time in the big house?

Actually they don't.  Casascius coins have no resemblance to the style of US coins other then the fact that they are around and made of metal.  

The Liberty Dollar coins use both the statue of liberty and the word "LIBERTY" at the top of the coin in a near identical fashion to genuine US coins.  

I am not saying they should be illegal, but the case is quite clear under current US law.  

Also Casascius coins are NOT pegged to the dollar.  

[Technomage]

Good post Charlie. I appreciate everything you do. I also know you're not one of those guys who is pissing his pants over this. Everyone on the board of Bitcoin Foundation is actually very brave and I appreciate all of them.

[paulie_w]

Good post Charlie. I appreciate everything you do. I also know you're not one of those guys who is pissing his pants over this. Everyone on the board of Bitcoin Foundation is actually very brave and I appreciate all of them.

that's right, but it never hurts to have more transparency, which is why i wish jgarzik would come here and diffuse this thread with some explanation.

[Technomage]

that's right, but it never hurts to have more transparency, which is why i wish jgarzik would come here and diffuse this thread with some explanation.

I think he will. Give him time. It's a delicate situation and probably requires thinking it through. It's also better when the heated drama cools down a bit.

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

Good post Charlie. I appreciate everything you do. I also know you're not one of those guys who is pissing his pants over this. Everyone on the board of Bitcoin Foundation is actually very brave and I appreciate all of them.

that's right, but it never hurts to have more transparency, which is why i wish jgarzik would come here and diffuse this thread with some explanation.

Ya, I didn't comment on that because honestly I think this thread is stupid. #bitcoin-dev is a developer related channel, not a channel for requesting upvotes on an extremely controversal and political topic article. Jeff gave a warning and followed with a ban. I dont think he 'went berzerk'

ber·serk/bərˈzərk/
Adjective:   
(of a person or animal) Out of control with anger or excitement; wild or frenzied

that's right, but it never hurts to have more transparency, which is why i wish jgarzik would come here and diffuse this thread with some explanation.

I think he will. Give him time. It's a delicate situation and probably requires thinking it through. It's also better when the heated drama cools down a bit.

It's really not a delicate situation. His time is better spent working on Bitcoin dev, which is his job, not wasting his time on threads like this.

[chrisrico]

Ya, I didn't comment on that because honestly I think this thread is stupid. #bitcoin-dev is a developer related channel, not a channel for requesting upvotes on an extremely controversal and political topic article. Jeff gave a warning and followed with a ban. I dont think he 'went berzerk'

I agree that it wasn't the place for asking for upvotes, and that the title of this thread is exaggerated. However, after the warning, the topic changed to new translations of the Bitcoin software. I think it is completely unreasonable for Jeremias to have been banned for that.