jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf?

[paulie_w]

you people that exposed yourselves are a major threat to it.

as fucking crazy as you usually seem, unfortunately i think you might be right.

[jgarzik]

It may be too late for the long game, since Iranians apparently already know about Bitcoin, and by prolonging discussion in this thread you only increase the probability that even more Iranians will get to know Bitcoin because of viral Streissand Effect which you created with your censorship act.

Let's see.  What if one knew ahead of time that

• the forum is full of idiot trolls
• the chat logs are watched closely by said trolls

Like I said.  Chess.

The question is not if, but when this will happen. So if you are that much afraid of US govt, perhaps you should either move to Europe or disappear from the Internet and return under different, TORified and anonymous identity, just like I2P devs did. Satoshi knew exactly what he was doing - this is why he remains anonymous.

Re-read the very first link in my long post...  to a Satoshi post.  Satoshi also knew that you don't challenge the biggest governments on their biggest issues.  That's just stupid.

[justusranvier]

This is an interesting book in its own right, but is most relevant to this thread for its tagline: http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com/

[SysRun]

100% heat, 0% light.

What do you do with a group of people who have similar interests but violently fundamental ideology? How can that work?

[hazek]

Satoshi also knew that you don't challenge the biggest governments on their biggest issues.  That's just stupid.

Fallacy: begging the question.

It's a very subtle one but no one conceded this point as true upon which your argument is based so please first show how some random person talking about translating the Bitcoin source into farsi is challenging the biggest governments.

Also why couldn't you personally/individually have just ignored him to solve that "problem"?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

(I don't know if you are talking to me or not, so I will answer just in case)

Your suggesting bitcoin development should be done behind closed doors?

No, development can be done openly even if all devs are known only under their nicknames. IRC, Git, SSH, Email, Web forums - all of these can be accessed using TOR, I2P, Freenet, Gnunet and similiar technologies.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

This would work--short term. Imagine if some US entity did approach say the TBF and asked for their help to implement this. And let's say the members of the TBF obliged. Down the road, said entity will request of further help with some other regime, crisis, whatever, but this time the TBF members reply with no-can-do for some reason. At this point, the US entity threatens them with if-you-don't-we're-telling-what-you-did-back-when. See the quagmire?

~Bruno K~

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

It may be too late for the long game, since Iranians apparently already know about Bitcoin, and by prolonging discussion in this thread you only increase the probability that even more Iranians will get to know Bitcoin because of viral Streissand Effect which you created with your censorship act.

Let's see.  What if one knew ahead of time that

• the forum is full of idiot trolls
• the chat logs are watched closely by said trolls

Like I said.  Chess.

[Raoul Duke]

but I would certainly like to hear Jeff's take on it at some point.

Would you like to hear Jeff's take on it when his words are on the record, or what Jeff's take on it would be if the two of you were sitting at a bar?  I don't know Jeff personally, but my reading of the situation suggests they'd be drastically different.

They have a name for that: hypocrisy.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

I think you already know where you can stick "everyone can inspect the code and contribute with their code" and similar bullshits.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
And also, you have no idea about how programming (and especially open source programming) works.

The proper thing for somebody in your position would be to shut up and never talk again on this topic, but i seriously doubt you are smart enough to do it.

This topic is turning into a serious trollfest.

[ArticMine]

I would respectfully suggest that all involved in this debate including the author of the article, http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-29/dollar-less-iranians-discover-virtual-currency that led to the banning start by actually reading the United States sanctions against Iran http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/iran.txt While the United States sanctions are very broad there are certain exceptions.

The following quote form the article

... At online store coinDL.com, shoppers can use bitcoins to buy Beyond Matter, the latest album from Iranian artist Mohammad Rafigh. Anyone in the U.S. downloading songs, which fetch .039 bitcoins or 45¢ each, risks violating U.S. sanctions. ...

Here is a quote from the US Treasury document:

...

• IMPORTS FROM IRAN - Goods or services of Iranian origin may not be imported
into the United States, either directly or through third countries, with the
following exceptions:

a)   Gifts valued at $100 or less;

b)   Information and informational materials;

c)   Household and personal effects, of persons arriving in the United
States, that were actually used abroad by the importer or by other family members
arriving from the same foreign household, that are not intended for any other
person or for sale, and that are not otherwise prohibited from importation; and

...

“Information and informational materials” are defined to include publications, films, posters,
phonograph records, photographs, microfilms, microfiche, tapes, compact disks,
CD ROMs, artworks, and news wire feeds, although certain Commerce Department
restrictions still apply to some of those materials. To be considered
informational material, artworks must be classified under chapter subheadings
9701, 9702, or 9703 of the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States. ...

It is fair to say that the claim made in the article regarding the importation of a digital download of a song from Iran to the United States is at best highly misleading and at worst out right wrong. Now let me get this straight on the basis of this erroneous claim made in this article someone was banned from #bitcoin-dev? There is way too much paranoia in this community regarding the US Federal Government.

Now take a look at the sponsors of the Tor project and how many are related to the US Federal Government https://www.torproject.org/about/sponsors.html.en
 

[paulie_w]

I agree that we need to decentralize more, and thats why I've created a contingency plan for myself and my team.

yankee, what is your contingency plan?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Now take a look at the sponsors of the Tor project and how many are related to the US Federal Government https://www.torproject.org/about/sponsors.html.en

TOR project (AND THE FREAKING INTERNET BTW) was actually started by US Government.
So there is nothing peculiar about that.

This is how it works:
1. Government creates and funds an idea in secrecy (usually for military or intelligence)
2. After the project is no longer secret, scientists of all sorts take over & develop the project
3. The project is deployed academically
4. The project is deployed comercially

This is completely normal way of doing things, there are multiple examples - including TOR, The Internet and GPS.

[becoin]

Now take a look at the sponsors of the Tor project and how many are related to the US Federal Government https://www.torproject.org/about/sponsors.html.en

TOR project (AND THE FREAKING INTERNET BTW) was actually started by US Government.

Actually everything was started by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. However, the 'freaking' Internet BTW began in CERN Switzerland. There at CERN the browser, the web server and the html (the hypertext) were invented. I know that most of the brainwashed US citizens think that Al Gore invented Internet, but truth is quite different:

The first proposal for the World Wide Web (WWW) was made at CERN by Tim Berners-Lee in 1989, and further refined by him and Robert Cailliau in 1990.

http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/about/Web-en.html
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/about/WebStory-en.html

[ArticMine]

The Internet and the World Wide Web are two very different things. As someone who actually used the Internet before the World Wide Web existed I know, and yes the Internet was started by the US Federal Government.

[becoin]

The Internet and the World Wide Web are two very different things. As someone who actually used the Internet before the World Wide Web existed I know, and yes the Internet was started by the US Federal Government.

Technically speaking the World Wide Web is currently 99% of the Internet so, your statement is quite misleading especially for the uneducated public! As already mentioned, everything was started not by the US Federal Government, but by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Now take a look at the sponsors of the Tor project and how many are related to the US Federal Government https://www.torproject.org/about/sponsors.html.en

TOR project (AND THE FREAKING INTERNET BTW) was actually started by US Government.

Actually everything was started by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. However, the 'freaking' Internet BTW began in CERN Switzerland. There at CERN the browser, the web server and the html (the hypertext) were invented. I know that most of the brainwashed US citizens think that Al Gore invented Internet, but truth is quite different:

The first proposal for the World Wide Web (WWW) was made at CERN by Tim Berners-Lee in 1989, and further refined by him and Robert Cailliau in 1990.

http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/about/Web-en.html
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/about/WebStory-en.html

This is not completely false, but missing the topic.

The IP network protocols that HTTP/WWW traffic operates on were created by US Government as ARPANET project.

The first two nodes of what would become the ARPANET were interconnected between Leonard Kleinrock's Network Measurement Center at the UCLA's School of Engineering and Applied Science and Douglas Engelbart's NLS system at SRI International (SRI) in Menlo Park, California, on 29 October 1969.[11] The third site on the ARPANET was the Culler-Fried Interactive Mathematics center at the University of California at Santa Barbara, and the fourth was the University of Utah Graphics Department. In an early sign of future growth, there were already fifteen sites connected to the young ARPANET by the end of 1971.[12][13] These early years were documented in the 1972 film Computer Networks: The Heralds of Resource Sharing.

So you are incorrect. The Internet WAS started by the military.
Of course then they had no idea what the project they started would become after many years. If they knew, government would scrap it and it would never see the light.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

The Internet and the World Wide Web are two very different things. As someone who actually used the Internet before the World Wide Web existed I know, and yes the Internet was started by the US Federal Government.

Technically speaking the World Wide Web is currently 99% of the Internet

This is a complete Bullshit. This is so bullshit that the stench can reach me over thousands of miles of optical fibres & UTP cables.

Bittorrent, Netflix, FTP, SFTP, SSH, P2P, Bitcoin, TOR, Freenet, Gnunet, Email and many many many many many many many other protocols have nothing to do with WWW. And they do use IP protocols, which is a child of ARPANET.

And i would wager if they don't contain at least 51% (if not 70%) of the total network traffic.

[hazek]

Keep it on topic please. Thank you in advance.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

You're obviously unaware of serious disadvantages of Open Source model. Why not check some articles on how HTML 5.0 came into being?
You should be able to realise how easy is to manufacture consensus, which is about removing any chance for oppossition to fight back, ever.

OMG, what the hell you are talking about ?
I'm starting to think you're delirious or trolling.

Actually, i have perfect proof that what you said above is total crap. This topic. This very topic is the perfect example that proves that it is extremely difficult it is to manufacture consensus in the Open Source world !

Look at the "Alternative currencies" board https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=37.0. Forks of the official client spring up even if there is a relative consensus. Ask yourself what would happen if there was no consensus at all ? New forks would be created every hour.

There are already multiple alternative clients. Even i created a fork, because i didn't like ONE decision that the devs made. Do you seriously think that it is possible to easily manipulate "consensus" in this situation ? User always has a choice of his client. So why the hell would he choose client that is disadvantageous for him ?

I see it this way: either your logic is nonexistant or you are trolling.

Keep it on topic please. Thank you in advance.

I will try.