jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf?

[QuantumQrack]

This same type of situation happened in #bitcoin with me.  I was simply trying to help newer bitcoin users secure their computer and wallet(s) and the different strategies that can be used, and ended up getting banned by gmaxwell.  Some of these people act like petulant children.

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[jgarzik]

The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better.  Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase.  In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.

Have any devs ever talked about maybe making BitTorrent client plugins that act as a Bitcoin node (with empty wallet?) as a step to piggybacking on BitTorrent popularity. The added traffic would be trivial in comparison to file downloading. If getting the node count up is important then this seems like it has potential.

Absolutely.  Or even better, maybe the plugin would permit you to send somebody bitcoins in exchange for a file, or file storage.

[becoin]

As for the bigger picture, it is important that readers review

• The logic behind Satoshi's Admonition, no don't "bring it on"
• My own Bitcoin Mini-Manifesto
• Sun Tzu's Art Of War
• And learn how to play chess.

In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to play a long game.

In particular, big governments have committed billions of dollars and a small specops army to interdicting what they consider their major enemies.  Just about the worst thing you can do is look at the targets of the Big Guys -- Iran, North Korea, Taliban, jihadi terrorists -- and put bitcoin squarely in their crosshairs.

Right now bitcoin is weak; a few thousand listening nodes run by hobbyists are all that holds the network together.  The switch from GPU/FPGA to ASIC will bring an increase in network strength -- but it also consolidates hash production power in a tiny handful of startup companies.  If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.

On the legal front, it is also quite clear that law enforcement is taking an active look at bitcoin.  There is an active SEC investigation into Pirate-related activities (good; clear out the swamp).  The DEA is most certainly looking at Silk Road.  The FBI produced an in-depth report on bitcoin, and talks actively about bitcoin at anti-money-laundering conferences.

It is therefore logical to conclude that IRC, forum and other activities are being continually monitored for evidence that can be used in a court of law.

That makes it all the more rich when anonymous forum trolls hurl charges of "cowardice!" and "treason!" when these trolls are neither (a) using their real name, nor (b) contributing in any meaningful way, nor (c) a High Value Target.  Teenaged crypto-anarchists may love to mock the "sheeple" who follow the laws of their jurisdiction, but at the end of the day, they just move back into their parents' house if they run into trouble.  Not that easy for me.

Just like a great many of people I would like to introduce to bitcoin, I am a law-abiding US citizen, using my real name, in public, volunteering my time to work on multiple bitcoin implementations.  Businesses like WordPress are law-abiding businesses.   It is logical and normal to expect people to follow the laws of their country.

That is the most revealing, the most saddening part about this thread.  In a short-sighted attempt to be a morally pure crypto-anarchist, you could ruin the true monetary freedom bitcoin brings, for the billions on this planet.

It is even worse than I thought.

In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to resign from core devs group. You just don't understand what bitcoin is and what would be the consequences for the state, politics, economy, and generally for the society if bitcoin succeeds! You don't understand that bitcoin success is incompatible with the laws of a police and militaristic state where personal freedom is just an empty word!

I suggest you write an open (or not so open) letter to the government asking for their mercy and then try to deserve it by coding a back door in the bitcoin client to allow some agencies better monitor all bitcoin transfers from and to Iran? Because, face it, this is exactly what every 'law-abiding US citizen' is supposed to do these days!

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better.  Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase.  In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.

Have any devs ever talked about maybe making BitTorrent client plugins that act as a Bitcoin node (with empty wallet?) as a step to piggybacking on BitTorrent popularity. The added traffic would be trivial in comparison to file downloading. If getting the node count up is important then this seems like it has potential.

Absolutely.  Or even better, maybe the plugin would permit you to send somebody bitcoins in exchange for a file, or file storage.

Hey Jgarzik, how about you unban the person you ragebanned and state that you don't want any more discussion of Iran? That is reasonable, but banning someone for it isn't. And since it took this long you should also apologize.

[evoorhees]

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

[greyhawk]

The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better.  Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase.  In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.

Have any devs ever talked about maybe making BitTorrent client plugins that act as a Bitcoin node (with empty wallet?) as a step to piggybacking on BitTorrent popularity. The added traffic would be trivial in comparison to file downloading. If getting the node count up is important then this seems like it has potential.

Absolutely.  Or even better, maybe the plugin would permit you to send somebody bitcoins in exchange for a file, or file storage.

Is Bitcoin ready for a fight with MPAA? Because as soon as you offer "Imma gonna pay you for your illegal copy of that movie" functionality, you know MPAA will be lawyering up like crazy.

[evoorhees]

As for the bigger picture, it is important that readers review

• The logic behind Satoshi's Admonition, no don't "bring it on"
• My own Bitcoin Mini-Manifesto
• Sun Tzu's Art Of War
• And learn how to play chess.

In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to play a long game.

In particular, big governments have committed billions of dollars and a small specops army to interdicting what they consider their major enemies.  Just about the worst thing you can do is look at the targets of the Big Guys -- Iran, North Korea, Taliban, jihadi terrorists -- and put bitcoin squarely in their crosshairs.

Right now bitcoin is weak; a few thousand listening nodes run by hobbyists are all that holds the network together.  The switch from GPU/FPGA to ASIC will bring an increase in network strength -- but it also consolidates hash production power in a tiny handful of startup companies.  If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.

On the legal front, it is also quite clear that law enforcement is taking an active look at bitcoin.  There is an active SEC investigation into Pirate-related activities (good; clear out the swamp).  The DEA is most certainly looking at Silk Road.  The FBI produced an in-depth report on bitcoin, and talks actively about bitcoin at anti-money-laundering conferences.

It is therefore logical to conclude that IRC, forum and other activities are being continually monitored for evidence that can be used in a court of law.

That makes it all the more rich when anonymous forum trolls hurl charges of "cowardice!" and "treason!" when these trolls are neither (a) using their real name, nor (b) contributing in any meaningful way, nor (c) a High Value Target.  Teenaged crypto-anarchists may love to mock the "sheeple" who follow the laws of their jurisdiction, but at the end of the day, they just move back into their parents' house if they run into trouble.  Not that easy for me.

Just like a great many of people I would like to introduce to bitcoin, I am a law-abiding US citizen, using my real name, in public, volunteering my time to work on multiple bitcoin implementations.  Businesses like WordPress are law-abiding businesses.   It is logical and normal to expect people to follow the laws of their country.

That is the most revealing, the most saddening part about this thread.  In a short-sighted attempt to be a morally pure crypto-anarchist, you could ruin the true monetary freedom bitcoin brings, for the billions on this planet.

I agree with Garzik generally on these points. Specifically, on the Sun Tzu point.  I won't comment on whether it was right to ban anyone from anything, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with making a Farsi translation, but in terms of strategy of presentation, we should always be playing the long game.

A while ago, a member of the forum here suggested that an organ/tissue market should be set up for Bitcoin. Indeed, Bitcoin would be great for that, and absolutely people have the right to buy and sell organs (so long as they aren't stolen from someone else). However, I recommended strongly against such an operation, not because I'm opposed to organ markets, but because it would be foolish from a strategic perspective.

Strategy and tactics, gentlemen.

[cunicula]

A while ago, a member of the forum here suggested that an organ/tissue market should be set up for Bitcoin. Indeed, Bitcoin would be great for that, and absolutely people have the right to buy and sell organs (so long as they aren't stolen from someone else).

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/30/chinese_kidney_for_ipad_sentencing/

I'll just leave that here.

[becoin]

but in terms of strategy of presentation, we should always be playing the long game.

It is amazing to read so many people here pretending they are good chess players playing 'the long game'. You are not a good player if you think your opponent is an idiot! Bitcoin is a way to circumvent government and escape from monetary slavery. Any government! You're an idiot if you think people working in the respective government agencies are idiots!

[Polvos]

Nefario claimed he was playing "the long game too" and tried to put GLBSE full legit until he came here crying about shutting it down because the Government made stalemate showing him the road to the can.

Nice. Now we have to be careful with our government and to be careful with our devs because they are willing to start a chess game they aren't going to win

I see this kind of chess game, USA Government Vs garzik and foundation members:

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

This is actually GENIUS. Quite seriously. It turns whole matter around.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

@jgarzik

I generally agree with you on most points, however there is a logical concept you don't seem to grasp:

In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to play a long game.

It may be too late for the long game, since Iranians apparently already know about Bitcoin, and by prolonging discussion in this thread you only increase the probability that even more Iranians will get to know Bitcoin because of viral Streissand Effect which you created with your censorship act.

So i would say the thing to do now is prepare for shit hitting the fan once Iranians start taking Bitcoin seriously and US government notices the issue.

The question is not if, but when this will happen. So if you are that much afraid of US govt, perhaps you should either move to Europe or disappear from the Internet and return under different, TORified and anonymous identity, just like I2P devs did. Satoshi knew exactly what he was doing - this is why he remains anonymous.

[Polvos]

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

Yeah, sure. The USA is going to comit the same mistake twice? Do you remember when they allowed the Persian Sha to print their own 100$ bills? Are you sure the USA is interested in spread a system designed to destroy the rial, and after that, the dollar too?

Occam's razor: Jeremias was banned because Garzik was trying to hide a USA covert operation vs the rial or simply he shitted his pants? In my opinion the answer is clear.

[cbeast]

Yeah, sure. The USA is going to comit the same mistake twice? Do you remember when they allowed the Persian Sha to print their own 100$ bills? Are you sure the USA is interested in spread a system designed to destroy the rial, and after that, the dollar too?

That's what they do best.

[BkkCoins]

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

This is actually GENIUS. Quite seriously. It turns whole matter around.

Even more genius is to use Bitcoin for that purpose until it's pretty much successful and then turn around and hit Bitcoin with full force as violating sanctions in order to make sure as Iran falls so does Bitcoin. Muahahaha.

[benjamindees]

Nothing like an otherwise irrelevant display of irreverent free speech to bring out the uncritical Legalists among us.

I see this kind of chess game, USA Government Vs garzik and foundation members:

This is perfect.  Unfortunately, only perhaps 1% of those here will actually understand it.

[cbeast]

Nothing like an otherwise irrelevant display of irreverent free speech to bring out the uncritical Legalists among us.

I see this kind of chess game, USA Government Vs garzik and foundation members:

This is perfect.  Unfortunately, only perhaps 1% of those here will actually understand it.

Bitcoin is on the left, I presume.

[thebitcoinchannel]

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

Perhaps, or perhaps not.  Would converting a country's economy over to bitcoin stabilize it or destabilize it in the long run?  If in the US we abolished the FED and the IRS, and went to a free market based system of competing currencies, would that make things more stable or less?  The fact is that the Rial has already collapsed:

"On September 25, 2012, the Iranian rial fell to a new low, trading at 26,500 to the US dollar. The drop followed the government's launch of a foreign exchange centre a day before, that would provide importers of some basic goods with foreign exchanges, at a rate about 2% cheaper than the open market rate on a given day. The announced rate at the centre on September 24, 2012 was 23,620 rials to USD.[23] By early October 2012, Rial had further fell in value to about 38,500 Rials per USD."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_rial

If the currency has already collapsed but the regime has not, what does that portend?  Turkey sure seems desperate to raise as much gold as they can lately.

http://www.blanchardonline.com/investing-news-blog/econ.php?article=5088
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/iran-gold-imports-turkey-surge-8-billion-ytd-gold-increasingly-used-currency
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/29/world/meast/turkey-iran-gold-for-oil/index.html

<----- Grabs more popcorn....

[sunnankar]

Fact 1: The US Government is trying to subvert the Iranian Government

Fact 2: Much of any government's power comes from its ability to print and control currency

Fact 3: Bitcoin, to the extent that it's used instead of a national currency, removes power from governments

Conclusion 1: Perhaps the US Gov should be covertly promoting and disseminating Bitcoin in Iran. What better way to bring down the regime than to collapse its currency and empower the citizens with a tool to resist the regime monetarily?

In other words, the State Dept. should help with the Farsi translations.

This is actually GENIUS. Quite seriously. It turns whole matter around.

Even more genius is to use Bitcoin for that purpose until it's pretty much successful and then turn around and hit Bitcoin with full force as violating sanctions in order to make sure as Iran falls so does Bitcoin. Muahahaha.

Precisely. But there could be blowback like with the CIA and Al Qaeda.

But screwing with decentralized open-source software is very risky because due to the increased complexity of work resulting from cooperation without coordination (highly recommend watching!) the software can mutate and grow at exponential rates which results in it quickly becoming uncontrollable.

200 days is long enough to filter out any short-term news, like WordPress announcement, etc. and reveal the long-term secular trend. Here is a 200 day moving average of Bitcoin's market capitalization:

[paulie_w]

Satoshi knew exactly what he was doing - this is why he remains anonymous.

jgarzik could be satoshi for all you know..